TOP 15 COLLEGE BASKETBALL TEAMS SINCE 2000.
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Always have this in the back of your mind when writing anti-Self posts.
From the Sporting News:
http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4652937-top-college-basketball-teams-programs-decade.
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This is Kansas, one of the top 5 college basketball programs of all time.
Of all time
ALL TIME
Pull any period, under basically any coach, and Kansas should rank in the top 5. It’s Kansas. Where Naismith and Allen coached. Where Wilt and Dean Smith played. This is Kansas. A list like this basically has to list Kansas, Kentucky and North Carolina somewhere in the top 5 because those three programs are the three best programs of all time.
UNC has won national titles under three different coaches and been to Final Fours under at least four different coaches.
Kentucky has won national titles under four different coaches and been to Final fours under at least that many.
Kansas has won national titles under three different coaches and been to Final Fours under at least five different coaches.
These are programs. It’s not about the coach. It’s about Kansas.
I don’t complain about Self (when I do) because he isn’t a good coach. I complain about him because I don’t just want Kansas basketball to be one of the best. I want Kansas basketball to be the best. Period. End of discussion.
That’s why I criticize. I want the discussion of college basketball powers to begin with Kansas, be about Kansas in the middle and end with Kansas. To do that takes national titles. This years team has a chance to win one.
Let’s do this.
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Damn! That is the kind of passion I have waited years to hear come out fused with your reason on your logical keyboard. I knew it was in there and would be worth the wait. Thanks.
PHOF!
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@justanotherfan I agree 100%. It’s not about Self, it’s about KU. But, if you look at Self’s numbers on paper (or a computer…) they’re staggering. Almost unbelievable. BUT - (you knew it was coming) the few losses he has in the NCAA’s are mostly REALLY bad ones. Even hard-core, passionate KU fans can live (not like, live) with a loss in the Elite Eight to a North Carolina, a Kentucky, or a Duke. I personally cannot deal with the first round losses to ANYONE, or losses to Bucknell, Bradley, UNI, well you know. No one can tell me that Self doesn’t adopt a different mindset during the tournament. You can’t destroy teams all year long and win 30+ games and then get to the tournament and get the deer in the headlights look like you’ve never played in front of more than 500 people before unless you’re changing the game plan.
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Lists like that are pretty subjective and I imagine if we were UConnbuckets instead of KUbuckets we might say we’ve won three rings, so why aren’t we tied with Duke for #1?
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Here we go again. The dreaded program rankings.
And no, no one should ever “think twice” if Self deserves to be criticized. You can either be objective, or avoid criticism. Objective means challenging his decisions and testing the thought process. That objectivity, of course, will land you on Bill Self’s side a good majority of the time.
Where Self does deserve criticism is the NCAA failures coupled with the lack of NCAA titles. I have seen where folks have cited Duke’s NCAA exits. Sure, but look at the NCAA titles to counterbalance the exits.
On the stats cited, of course, two of the final fours were Roy’s, not Self’s. That’s being objective.
Of course, Roy has won two national titles during the 15 year span used by this article, Self has won one. And three final fours to two. Can’t get more objective than that.
Of course, winning percentage is utilized – and we play in an inferior conference. That’s being objective too.
How any ranking system could ever credibly rank Kansas ahead of UConn the past 15 years is beyond me. It’s flat stupid. In that time UConn has three national championships. Kansas one. Four final fours and Kansas two. I will never understand the alternative mindset.
@nuleafjhawk said, “You can’t destroy teams all year long and win 30+ games and then get to the tournament and get the deer in the headlights look.”
Interesting. The … butt … puckers. When did we last see it? At the WUG. Self coached masterfully the entire tournament. We discussed it here during the tourney. Then the butt puckered in the final game. Subs dried up – the same sub pattern that got him there disappeared. His entire style changed because there was different pressure. And that almost cost us the game. That’s choking. Now, we won. My view is all indiscretions are forgiven when you win the ultimate prize, because, ultimately, the goal was achieved. But that’s his issue. It always has been. It’s failing to make crucial adjustments when situations dictate. It’s an inability or refusal to deviate from schematic dogma. It’s poor late game management. It’s … the … butt … puckering.
These failures are magnified because they are elimination games. That’s how it is. When we look at games we should have won – Bucknell, Bradley, UNI, VCU, Michigan, Stanford, WSU – it’s all the same. Each loss points directly at Self. On the other hand, when we win, we many times don’t discuss what Self did that caused us to win the game. Those times are much more frequent.
I think what happens with Self is that when the pressure gets higher, he gets more conservative – he sticks with the players he trusts, he resorts to the schemes he trusts, and he relies more on the one guy he trusts (himself).
That’s been the simple formula that has spelled our premature NCAA doom.
And, of course, many, many times, it’s that exact same formula that produces wins.
It’s an interesting dilemma.
But I think with a coach that coaches as Self does, it just creates a higher probability of the one game calamity than perhaps there should be – in situations where it shouldn’t happen.
Losing to UCLA, or MSU, or UK – like @nuleafjhawk said – those suck, but we can stomach that. But when we lose to inferior teams, that’s the issue.
But all we have is 2015-16. That’s all that matters now. And ask yourself this, is there any other coach you’d want leading the Jayhawks right now?
There just isn’t.
This is the year.
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Great post.
I thought late in the finals at the WUG we should have played Vick some more. I just thought his athletic ability & shooting could have been used when we had all those tired legs. In the end it was the vets that came through but we almost had the “what if” scenario’s if we didn’t win.
2016 has the chance to erase all the bad NCAA memories we’ve had, I mean the collection of talent we have with hopefully Diallo is as good as we’ve ever had it. Self knows this is a big year, the players know it.
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@HighEliteMajor I have always felt that when we have lost “those” games in the tournament, our players seem to played “tighter”…not to lose. Part of that comes with being the favorite…and the underdog plays with nothing to lose. But do you think our team takes on the coaches “puckering” quality?
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@BeddieKU23 Every hour or so I come to this website hoping to see a new topic of “Diallo cleared to play” yet nothing so far…A title this year would erase all the bad memories as you said. This is year 8 since that title team (feels like yesterday to me).
I dont mind us being a one seed at the end of the year, but I kind of hope there is an undefeated team out there in March that everyone else is talking about. I dont really like being the favorite in college basketball, I like to be the realative underdog (4-8 overall)
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“Initially, KU forward Jamari Traylor was afraid of his cotton ball.”
What I want to know… what ever happened to this -
Could KU basketball study lead to a change in the way the game is played?
I’m ready to hear from the lab coats on why we don’t always perform well in March and what we can do about it.
Makes me wonder if all these guys are smearing testosterone cream on their nuts before a big game? And if not, why not? Every want-to-be jock at the gym is showing up smelling like buffalo musk and willow tree sap.
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@HighEliteMajor I absolutely would rank KU ahead of UConn over the last 15 years despite UConn’s 3 titles because UConn has also missed the NCAA tournament 5 times during that stretch. Missing 1 of 3 tournaments just isn’t consistent enough despite the titles to rank ahead of KU hasn’t been lower than a 4 seed during this stretch. UConn is the definition of a boom or bust program with lots of peaks and valleys while KU trends pretty highly every year.
As for Self in the tournament, this is where his preference of playing lower scoring games comes back to bite him. Every possession is magnified in lower scoring games and Self reverts back to a lot of his bad habits the more intense the magnification gets. That Germany game was the perfect example. KU had played loose and up tempo for basically the entire tournament. I do think tired legs played a big part in the Germany game, but Self tightened the rotation like he always does the only subs he made during the 4th quarter and OT’s were when someone fouled out. Bragg and Vick both had relatively fresh legs compared to everyone else and could’ve forced tempo.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think Self could arguablly this year do a “platoon system” and make it work. We will def have the depth, but i think if it were tweaked a little more with maybe 2 subs at a time at given intervals or something, we could play up tempo and keep fresh legs. I really feel that when we shorten the rotation players get tired, tired players (even the most trusted ones) are more likely to miss shots/turn the ball over.
I kind of think the platoon system could work, I just dont think the last guy that tried it was the kind of forward thinker to revoultionize the game. They did almost run the table too (as much as I dont like to admit that). Guess my stance is Self could really open it up to more running this year- my hopes is with Diallo, the success of the WUG and playing up tempo and the 30 sec clock; maybe, just maybe Self changes his style a little this year (more players rotating while playing faster).
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@Hawk8086 said:
@HighEliteMajor I have always felt that when we have lost “those” games in the tournament, our players seem to played “tighter”…not to lose. Part of that comes with being the favorite…and the underdog plays with nothing to lose. But do you think our team takes on the coaches “puckering” quality?
I, too, have always seen the tightening up during the NCAA’s tournament. I really think the players reflect the disposition of the Head Coach. And this is where I have my problem … Coach Self tightens up, his face gets flushed, he may even be scared of losing … whatever the reason … the players notice it and act in the manner of the coach. That’s my 2-cents !.!.!
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The troops will reflect the mindset of the leader. If the leader is afraid, his charges will be afraid. If courageous, they will be courageous.
Self coaches differently in “big games.” The 2008 and 2012 teams were special because those teams reflected the personality of the top players - 2008 reflected Mario’s personality, 2012 reflected TRob and Tyshawn’s fearlessness - rather than Self.
But Self can improve this. He’s a good coach. I have no doubt that he could make the necessary adjustments if he recognizes that when he gets tight, that filters down.
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i would put Florida as my top because they did what is extremely hard to do- repeat! Winning one title is hard, winning multiple titles (not back to back) is even harder, and winning back to back titles is, IMO, the hardest thing to do.
just solely on this, i would give Florida #1. spot.
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@elpoyo That surprises no one on this site.
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@nuleafjhawk my favorite movie!
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@clevelandjayhawk Absolutely no to a platoon system. It kills team chemistry because players don’t play with everyone else. Even Calipari said he would never do that again.
@Red.Rooster I think has to do with Bill Self being afraid of losing more than loving to win. He coaches every game to win instead of letting his teams learn lessons from losses and figuring out how to deal with adversity. This doesn’t mean intentionally losing games obviously, but that’s one thing I’ve always loved about Izzo. He doesn’t care if MSU loses a few early season games because he uses those to toughen his team up and learn how to handle adversity so they’re better prepared to deal with in March and I think MSU’s track record in March speaks for that approach.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Agree with what you said about IZZO … right on and something Bill could learn from IZZO approach
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No Big 12 teams on the list other than us. Discuss.
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@wissoxfan83
I think that points to why the Big 12 title run isn’t as big a national story as we would like it to be. KU is one of the best programs in the country over that stretch. There isn’t another team in its conference that could make that case. If the list were stretched to 25, how many Big 12 teams would make the list?
I did some quick math and I can’t find a Big 12 team with more than 15 points under the criteria outlined by the article. That probably means that, of the teams in the Big 12, only one or two others would make the list if expanded to 25. That’s not exactly impressive.
I’ve consistently argued that it would help KU tremendously if Texas and Oklahoma started winning again. A weak Big 12 reflects poorly on KU and, unfortunately, KU can’t do anything about it until other teams step up.
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@justanotherfan Yep, Im amped up just reading your post. KU is one of the top 3 best programs and a case can easily be made for being the best, #1.
Our boys this year, man they are going to really beat some teams badly. Killer instinct reminiscent of the 08 team.
ROCK CHALK!!
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@clevelandjayhawk KU’s 08 team was an underdog. Way too many experts picked UNC to beat them and Memphis to beat them. I knew though, I knew.
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@HighEliteMajor I am hoping CS learned something new in the WUGs that he can hang onto and apply to games in March. Thats the crux of it, can he apply what he learned this summer to scenarios in March?
To answer your question though, NO, I would not want any other coach with KU right now. Not even good Ole Roy or LB.
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@elpoyo troll
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@Hawk8086 I do. I like @nuleafjhawk’s video link. If a coach appears calm, handles stressful situations like other situations, and projects confidence – that impacts the team. Great story about Joe Montana I heard again the other day. In the Super Bowl against the Bengals (2nd time against them), SF was down, 2 minutes left. Montana comes to the huddle and points out John Candy in the stands to his teammates. Players in the huddle said that was exactly what they needed to relax.
@drgnslayr “smearing testosterone cream on their nuts”? I wouldn’t try it, I hear they explode.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Well, we live on a different planet. You may value simply getting to the tournament. You may value high tourney seeds. And you may value regular season wins. That may get you all jazzed. Not me. UConn has won four national titles starting in 1999. Your “boom or bust” comment is illogical and near ignorance levels (not trying to be insulting, but did you even look at their tourney results?).
Including 1999, when they won their first title, through 2015, UConn has missed the tourney just four times. So they made the tourney 13 times in 17 season.
This shows the lunacy of our attachment to our little streaks. We are going blindly catapult our program history over others simply because we made the tourney four more times in 17 years? Sounds like something an MU fan might do – we all get a trophy.
UConn, in those 13 appearances, has played 46 tourney games in the same time period that Kansas has played 55. So they didn’t make the tourney four times, yet only played 9 less games than Kansas. Thus in those four seasons, we essentially averaged just a little better than getting to the second round.
Ask yourself this – this is the crunch question. Since 1999, would you trade simply playing nine tourney games for three more national championships?
Since and including 1999, we have played two or less games in the NCAA tourney 7 times. That means we’re eliminated the first weekend. Counting UConn four seasons not making the tourney, they had 8 seasons where they weren’t playing past the first weekend (4 where they didn’t make, and four where they did but were eliminated). What they heck is the difference?
The only real difference is that UConn was put out of its misery earlier. How much misery did we feel each year we were eliminated in the first weekend? Think about that.
Try UConn having 7 elite eights, just as many as KU has. So, again, UConn made four less tourneys, but has the same number of elite eights.
And think about how three – count 'em three – additional NCAA title rings would brighten your day, for the rest of your life? You know it, you’d be wearing a t-shirt boasting about it at least once a week. I would.
Instead, I have a “Ten there, done that” t-shirt in the bottom of my drawer (my wife bought me) that I will never wear. The statute of limitations has run on my 2008 tourney t-shirt.
Any argument attempting to promote KU’s hoops record over UConn since and including 1999, or in the last 15 years, is diluting and cheapening the very basis of why Kansas plays the game.
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You stated my case well.
I love KU basketball with a passion, like all of us here, but I also try to stay in perspective. We are THE greatest program in the conference and one of the three or four greatest in the country. Perhaps none other has the aura of tradition and high elite major status (thanks for letting me use that @HighEliteMajor) ESPN loves us, network TV loves us. We inspire court stormings and we are THE game on most teams schedules every year.
But for our program needs Final Fours and NC’s to maintain our status as HEM.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
Try UConn having 7 elite eights, just as many as KU has. So, again, UConn made four less tourneys, but has the same number of elite eights.
I’ll take our 26 consecutive ncaa appearances with some painful early exits over not making it at all ANY DAY, thank you. We’ll tie NCarolina’s record next year.
UConn deserves to be considered more of an elite program than they are, but they’re not even on the radar some years. Hell, most basketball fans across the country wouldn’t even notice if their men’s team wasn’t on the tournament bracket. If KU or UK or NC doesn’t make it though, that’s big news.
I lived in Tennessee for ten years around a few Kentucky fans (some were total a-holes and some were people like you guys who loved the game). When UK didn’t make the tourney in 2009, they were crushed. I don’t think KU fans have any idea how humiliating that was for hardcore UK fans, and how it would be exactly the same for KU fans.
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@HighEliteMajor Maybe I’m taking your words out of context, but why belittle our streaks? They are unique currently and are on the verge of being historic.
For you, it’s NC or bust - although recently you seem to accept Final Fours as worthy achievements. I get that.
You think multiple NCs trump our streaks. I get that too.
But can’t you respect people like me who think the regular season is more than just play-in games to the NCAA Tournament? Why compare us to MU fans and talk about lunacy?
On this site, you’re my favorite analyst of the game and I certainly respect your preferences. Please don’t diss mine.
(Aside: If we really want to concentrate on Tournament excellence, we need to tear down Allen Field House! The team is too used to the overwhelming home advantage and doesn’t do as well on neutral courts. Also, no more “away” games or Big 12 Tournaments in the Sprint Center.)
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Hard to say no to taking 3 additional NC, along with 4 missed tourneys over the 15 year span. However, that is in hindsight. And least we forget how good AND lucky teams need to be to win it all. UConn’s last NC was deserving, but a HUGE fluke in IMHO. So that’s 2 NCs with 4 missed tourneys, etc. Does that change our discussion any?
KU definitely NEEDS more NCs and NEEDS more appearances the the Elites and Final 4s. We all can agree on that!
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@ParisHawk Solid points there. Tearing down AFH to concentrate on tourney excellence? Well, crap, we might as well give back the original rules of basketball. Let Duke have them, its a distraction to our real goal of winning more NC’s, which will happen anyways.
I feel the same way about our streaks. Noone in Div 1 has as many consecutive NCAA tournament appearances as KU does. Noone in Div 1 has as many consecutive conference championships as KU does. It is absolutely bordering on historic. Who else can catch up? Plus, KU will absolutely get another ring or two, another couple final four and/or national title banners to hang, its just a matter of when. I dont disagree that I would like to have another three banners to hang in AFH.
Personally, I dont want to see KU miss the tourney or have to “settle” for an NIT bid. How F*&%ing humiliating would that be??
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@hawkmoon2020 I kind of consider our NC in 08 a fluke, or maybe a miracle but we still have the banner, just like UConn’s 2011 fluke, which was aided by our tourney favorite team not being able to beat VCU.
And actually, they have four NC’s since 1999, one year before the subjective best teams since 2000 criteria was laid out.
Your last line? Spot on, let it start this year in fact.
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@wissoxfan83 I re-watched the 2008 title game last week and it certainly seemed like a fluke that we won that specific game. Free throws missed by Memphis. Huge steals in crucial minutes, etc. Pretty unreal that we were able to pull that off.
But the team we had was a Final 4 / National Championship team all year. That was the best team we have ever had under Bill. The UCONN team that won in 2011 barely made the tournament and road the wave of a one man team. Not sure I can agree that the 2011 UCONN championship and the KU 2008 championship are similar.
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@joeloveshawks But you agreed our win was kind of fluky, but then you said it wasn’t a fluke we won because we were good? I agree we had a very good team that year, ask UNC, so I understand your point.
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@wissoxfan83 I think the way I worded that was funny. I think it was a fluke that we came back to win a game when we were down big with 2 minutes to play but I certainly don’t think it was a fluke that we were in the National Title game as we were a #1 seed. UCONN in 2011 needed to win the Big East tournament just to get into the NCAA. That was an insane run!
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@Lulufulu said:
@ParisHawk Solid points there. Tearing down AFH to concentrate on tourney excellence? Well, crap, we might as well give back the original rules of basketball. Let Duke have them, its a distraction to our real goal of winning more NC’s, which will happen anyways.
I feel the same way about our streaks. Noone in Div 1 has as many consecutive NCAA tournament appearances as KU does. Noone in Div 1 has as many consecutive conference championships as KU does. It is absolutely bordering on historic. Who else can catch up? Plus, KU will absolutely get another ring or two, another couple final four and/or national title banners to hang, its just a matter of when. I dont disagree that I would like to have another three banners to hang in AFH.
Personally, I dont want to see KU miss the tourney or have to “settle” for an NIT bid. How F*&%ing humiliating would that be??
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Do The Booths still own the original rules of basketball? Have I missed that they have finally been put on display and conveyed unconditionally to KU? Does anyone know, if the property rights to the official original rules of the game have been conveyed to KU yet? My expectation has always sadly been that they will never be conveyed to the ownership of KU. I suspect they will probably be conveyed into a private not-for-profit corporation with a board controlled by the booth family, thus allowing a healthy tax deduction and continued private control and continued private ownership. I wonder if their cost of acquisition will likely be written down with a donation deduction, plus some overhead fees on the real estate development that will house them? Say it ain’t so!
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@jaybate-1.0 wasn’t sure you were serious or just forgetful?
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See my separated post related to this.
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Roy proved platooning worked.
Nothing is sacred about 7-8 players in March except one thing.
It is rare to have more than 7-8 players better than another Final 16 teams best 7-8 players.
The other teams best 7-8 players determine whether platooning can work.
You have to keep your best players on the floor to beat the other team’s best players.
If you have ten as good or better than their best 7-8, then platooning makes sense.
Not if not.
7-8 guys can rotate and play half court games and not get tired, no matter if the opposing coach throws ten lesser players at the 7-8.
Thus, it’s an energy budget management thing.
If you come at Self with 12 lesser players than his top 7-8, he will play grind and beat you with his better players.
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I would also add that UConn also wins conference titles – they’ve won 5 since and including 1999.
@DanR My discussion point is not to be confused with program history. UConn is new to that scene. I would ask you, though, just curious, what’s your trade off? It was quite in vogue to mock UK because it didn’t make the NCAA tourney the year after winning the national championship. What’s the trade off?
Try this scenario:
- Kansas wins the NCAA title in 2016-17.
- Kansas goes 17-13 and misses the tourney in 2017-18.
- Kansas makes the tourney and reaches the sweet 16 in 2018-19.
- Kansas makes the tourney and gets knocked out in the first game in 2019-20.
- Kansas wins the NCAA title in 2020-21.
- Kansas makes the tourney and reaches the Elite Eight in 2021-22.
- Kansas goes 16-14 and misses the tourney in 2022-23.
- Kansas makes the tourney and get knocked out in the first game in 2023-24.
- Kansas makes the tourney and reaches Final Four, losing in the semis in 2024-25.
- Kansas win the NCAA title in 2025-26.
- Kansas makes the tourney and loses its second game in 2026-27.
- Kansas goes 18-12 and misses the tourney in 2027-28.
- Kansas makes the tourney and reaches the sweet 16 in 2028-29.
- Kansas wins the NCAA title in 2029-30.
- Kansas makes the tourney and reaches the Elite Eight in 2030-31.
- Kansas goes 15-15 and misses the NCAA tourney in 2031-32.
- Kansas makes the tourney and reaches the sweet 16 in 2032-33.
During this 17 game stretch, you also get 5 conference titles and 4 conference tourney titles.
Would you sign up for this right now? I have guaranteed you 4 national championships in the next 17 years. Five Final Fours. Seven Elite Eights. And oh yes, four seasons where we don’t make the tourney.
@ParisHawk Don’t get me wrong, I think the streaks (NCAA tourney and Big 12) are impressive. Sure I do. But it’s just the matter of degree.
But my post was really directed at the mindset that believes KU’s record over the last 15 years is more impressive than UConn’s. The point @Texas-Hawk-10 was making.
Why can’t one say, “Our streaks are great. We’re proud of them. But by comparison, what UConn has done since and including 1999 is more impressive.”
That doesn’t demean our accomplishments. It just puts them in perspective. Sometimes what KU does isn’t the best that has been done, that’s all.
It just seems to me that we latch on to our accomplishments as if they are more impressive than what other programs have done, simply because we have done it. It seems to me that we latch onto it because it is what we have, not necessarily because it’s what we aspire to.
If we missed the NCAA tourney a few times but had 4 nice, shiny rings, everyone would argue why missing the tourney a few times was irrelevant and just a few bumps in the road, or bad luck, or due to injuries – you name it. We’d rationalize it just like we do now.
We should aspire to greatness. UConn has been greatest in the last 17 years, very close with Duke who has three NCs. Other teams have done it. It can be done.
We are a great program. That is determined over history. Over time, I think most would look at the totality of the programs and say Kansas is greater than UConn. The weight of history overwhelms a 17 year burst. That includes the conference titles, the total wins, the consistency, etc.
So I guess it’s like this for me – would I trade our program for UConn’s right now? Of course not. Would I trade the accomplishments since and including 1999? In a minute. Again, the accomplishments – not the experience, not AFH, not everything that is KU hoops. Just the accomplishments.
Look at what I set our for the next 17 years – looks pretty darned enticing, doesn’t it?
And “no malice” intended.
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@HighEliteMajor What I wouldn’t give for that outcome.
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@HighEliteMajor Thanks for the reply.
I understand why you bring up “trading” in the context of comparing programs.
I’m more interested in action and decision: what should be done and what choices should be made in the regular season to give KU a better chance at the end of the year?
For example:
Should Mason play 38 minutes a game to win now, at the risk of wearing him down by March, or should he play 30 at the risk of losing more games before March?
Should promising players play through mistakes and get more minutes so they will be ripe for March, or should the best players right now get all the minutes?
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“Would you sign up for this right now?”
I might get stomped on in here for saying this. But I’d rather have just one or two more NCs in that time frame and still have our conference streak alive.
We’ve been through all the conversation about what “counts most.” I don’t want to open that can of worms.
But I look at it this way… if we are concerned about how the rest of the world sees us… then we need the 4 NCs. I think we just need one now and then to stay nationally relevant.
If we are concerned more about our league, then we prefer the insane conference streak, which then would be approaching 30 continuous years… easily the most-dominant league performance streak of all times. That even has national clout. But what it definitely has is Kansas being top dog of its conference, something I cherish because I absolutely HATE losing our conference to anyone in our conference.
I can’t stand losing our conference.
Let me put it this way…
What if we could make a deal with the devil this year to guarantee we win a NC this year. But in order to do so, we have to finish runner-up to the K-State Wildcats.
NO FRIGGIN’ WAY!
Of course, I’d rather win both. I’m just illustrating how much I hate to lose to anyone in our conference. Too much history. The NC thing is just a couple of weeks of hooray and then back to square one. People quickly forget when it isn’t their team. I bet we could ask on the streets of NY about our Kansas Jayhawks, and when they last won a NC. Chances are perhaps 2% would even guess close. I don’t care if I impress those NY guys. They love their Orangemen, so let them be.
I want to own the B12 forever! And I’d like the occasional “cherry on top” with a NC now and then.
Every loss hurts… but especially losses in our conference.
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@drgnslayr I thought some of our Big 12 championships were flukes too. Like the year when we were playing Texas and Kevin Durant got hurt and couldn’t play in the second half. As I recall, Texas had a huge lead when he left the game. Or the game we won against Oklahoma and Blake Griffin had to sit out the entire game. I don’t think we could have won those games had those two players not been injured. And, without looking it up, I think if we had lost those games, we wouldn’t have won the championship.
I also thought the way we won in 2013 was kinda fluky. We got the benefit of a very questionable call at the end of the Iowa State game. A loss there would have given K-State (I think) the championship.
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@HighEliteMajor Interesting scenario. Many KU fans would be in high panic mode by year 4 and calling for Self’s head, you included.
You don’t get to just trade accomplishments. You have to trade the failures also. So, no, I would not trade KU’s last 17 seasons with UConn’s. KU had legit enough teams to win at least 4 NCAA championships during that period. We didn’t have any 16-loss seasons, didn’t miss a tournament four times, didn’t have to vacate any wins, didn’t have to ever hear another team’s fans chant N-I-T, and (as a bonus) didn’t have a jerk like Jim Calhoun as a coach.
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@drgnslayr said:
Every loss hurts… but especially losses in our conference.
And losses in the first weekend of the NCAAs.
Self makes it to the second weekend most every year and there is much less conversation about our underperforming in the NCAAs.
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@wissoxfan83
Something happens to a conference when a great coach takes deep root in it.
Before John Wooden became dominant in the Pac 8 starting around 1963 to 1973 or so, the Pac 8 was considered one of the toughest conferences around during the 1950s.
Pete Newell was at Cal winning a ring, and becoming the game’s authority on big man coaching. Hall of Fame.
Sam Barry, the actual father of the triangle offense, and Forest Twogood, had been at USC. Barry made the Hall of Fame. Twogood made the Helm’s Foundation Hall of Fame.
Slats Gill was at Oregon State winning five conference titles. four from 1947 to 1958. Hall of Fame.
Marv Harshman was at Washington State in the Pac 8 in the late 50s. Hall of Fame.
And of course John Wooden at UCLA. Hall of Fame.
These Pac 8 coaches may have been the best group of coaches ever to congregate in one conference for a decade. Practically every conference game they coached they coached against a future hall of fame coach!!!
But then some retired, and some moved on because of the ferocity of competition. Still others stayed, but one survived and transcended: John Wooden.
During the early 1960s to 1970s–Wooden’s decade of dominence–some very fine coaches were attracted to the Pac 8. Hall of Famer Harshman stayed. Hall of Famer Ralph Miller landed at Oregon State. Hall of Famer Tex Winter was at Washington for four years, or so. Dick Harter, not a Hall of Famer, but a successful coach in D1 and the NBA came late to Oregon. Bob Boyd at USC was arguably the greatest coach ever to not be recognized for being a great coach, because he finished second to Wooden so many times. And so on.
But during Wooden’s era of dominance, when Wooden won his long run of conference titles AND national titles, people argued that the Pac 8 was not all that great many of those years, despite a lot of very good coaches challenging Wooden.
There is something about long winning streaks that makes media and fans not be able to hold both the genius coaches capable of such long winning streaks and other exceptional coaches not quite good enough to break the streaks in their minds jointly.
When Wooden didn’t dominate, the Pac 8 was great.
When Wooden dominated, Wooden was great, not the Pac 8.
There were even naives that said that the Pac 8 was weak while Wooden was winning his rings.
Bob Boyd, Marv Harshman, Ralph Miller, and Dick Harter were seriously good coaches that put seriously good teams with seriously good talent on the floor.
Wooden was just a genius by then blessed with great talent, too.
Consider Bill Self–a contemporary genius.
He has coached against a lot of good coaches in the Big 12 in his years.
Bob Knight. Hall of Famer. Rick Barnes. Future Hall of Famer. Mark Turgeon. Future Hall of Famer. Fred Hoiberg. Might have been a future hall of famer had his heart and his agenda allowed it. Bob Huggins. Future Hall of Famer. Tubby Smith. Wears a ring. Lon Kruger. Likely a future Hall of Famer if he can get out from under Self.
I am not saying the Big 12 has as many great programs as some other conferences. But Self has coached against some hellaciously good coaches in the Big 12.
But because he has risen to the challenge and won titles for eleven straight years people are beginning to downgrade the Big 12, same as they began to downgrade the Pac 8, once Wooden began to dominate it.
I guaranty you that if Roy, or Coach K had won the last 11 straight conference titles in the ACC, even with the fine roster of coaches the ACC has had, there would be people starting to argue that the ACC was just not that good of a conference and that that was why Coach K, or Roy, won 11 straight.
What people forget about these occasional genius coaches is that they actually attract good coaches into their conferences simply because coaches are insanely competitive and want to see if they can knock the genius off his pedestal. They want to coach against the best and see if they can beat the best.
I actually sometimes doubt the Big 12 would get the number of fine coaches it gets, if it were not for the chance to coach against Bill Self.
Self is one of the precious metals standards in coaching.
Coach K is another.
Calipari is another.
You want to compete?
You’ve got to coach against the best to keep it from getting boring.
The Big 12 had a flame out in the Madness last season.
It happens.
It has happened to other power conferences from time to time.
But Self has nothing to apologize for winning his titles in the B12.
The Big 12 has long since ceased to be that low contact finesse conference that used to get intimidated and beaten up in post season.
its bad to the bone now.
Does anyone seriously think coaches and teams from other power conferences have lately been looking forward to playing Bill Self, Bob Huggins and Rick Barnes teams in post season? or Bill Self, Bob Huggins/Frank Martin, Mark Turgeon, Mike Anderson and Bob Knight teams before that?
Uh, no.
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@jaybate-1.0 just ask Roy!
