Burnt Ends
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I have no doubt before this season is over Diallo is the starter beside Ellis. I love what Hunter is doing in the WUG’s but I’m afraid he is benefiting from the international style of play. Not sure that will carry over to D1. Lucas looks the same and even frustrated at times. Not good. Traylor is well Traylor. He’ll get is playing time.
If Hunter, Lucas, and Traylor were all that then last year wouldn’t have been such a dude. Now players can improve. Yet other than Hunter do you see a big improvement? I see Diallo getting the nod just because he’s going to have the most talent and highest upside. The ??? for me is Bragg.
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@JayHawkFanToo Good point. After Cliff’s performance last year I think we can all step back and assume that guys will take awhile to develop. Actually, who was the last KU post player to have a huge impact his freshman year not named Joel Embiid?
I tend to agree that Diallo should start by mid season. Some of this is based on hype and an assumption that he will be a stud. Some of this is based on the fact that Landen and Bam Bam are simply not D1 top 5 team in the country starters. They are role players on a team the caliber of KU, plain and simple.
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On Diallo, if he can’t come in and be a starter and make a significant impact, then why waste the time? We expect a lot of presumed OADs because we won’t see the development down the road.
Freshmen have a learning curve. But we have every right to expect nearly immediate production from a guy that is using Kansas as one year pit stop.
If it’s a guy that is committed to being around and developing, I have a much different attitude.
If Diallo isn’t an immediate impact, and isn’t a big minutes starter, we have wasted our time.
Embiid translated to nothing in March. Cliff translated to nothing in March.
It is very reasonable to understand freshmen need to develop.
It is also very reasonable to expect much more out of presumed OADs than the normal freshman, and to be more impatient, and to be more critical of the lack of production commensurate with their ranking.
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I’ve watched and re-watched those springtime classics in which Diallo walked off with MVP trophies. He is no fluke. Barring injury, this kid is a 3rd or 4th year Kevin Young with more wingspan and upside. Granted, he must adjust quickly to Bill Self Defense or he will not get immediate 25+ minute playing time. But his energy and instincts are off the charts for an incoming freshman. I am much more sure of Diallo than I was of Wiggins prior to his first appearances in a Jayhawk uniform. Diallo probably has more to learn than did Wiggins, at this stage, and he might not have as big an NBA upside; but he is going to impact KU Hoops just as much or more than did Andrew. If Mickelson can keep a’comin’, he and Diallo are going to make life delightful for Perry, Wayne, Frank and the other key players. Someone recently wrote that Self’s bench will be deadly. Man, do I ever second that postulation!
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Not to flog a wounded horse too harshly, but my best advice to Greene: Seriously consider opting for a red shirt. A fully healthy fourth and fifth year of experience, and YOU ARE ONE OF THE MEN!
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@HighEliteMajor said:
Embiid translated to nothing in March.
A bit harsh, considering he wasn’t a presumed OAD and he was missing because of injury.
Also, remember he was expected to come back for the second weekend. Embiid didn’t let us down, Self let Embiid down by letting himself be outcoached against Stanford.
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It really depends on how you see him and who applies the OAD label. I prefer to see him as TAD and if he develops fast he can turn into a OAD. Alexander could have been a TAD and 1st round pick instead of having to prove himself in the Summer League; Selby was the Summer League MVP and he still could not stay in the League.
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@ParisHawk By the time he hit campus, he was a presumed OAD – I regularly cite the Rick Pitino comment about Kansas possibly having the top two pick in the draft. A comment made in July of 2013. And I’m just talking the results. We got nothing from either Embiid or Cliff in March. Harsh? Sure. True? Sure.
@JayHawkFanToo Who in the basketball world does not presume that Diallo is a OAD? The word presumed means something. We all know nothing is for sure. He is in that group right now that is presumed to turn pro by nearly everyone. You cite Cliff and Selby as apparently folks that should have stayed – yet they were both presumed OADs that turned into OADs. My point is not what folks should do – it’s what they actually do. Your citation of Cliff and Selby enforce the point that many of these guys get their value in their head, and despite logic, still turn pro.
Also, when the man himself says he’s plans on being an OAD, that means something too … here’s what Diallo said: "When asked if he sees himself as a one-and-done, Diallo, who has been compared to Serge Ibaka of the Oklahoma City Thunder, said, ‘Of course, yes. That’s what I’m looking for.’ ” Here’s the article where Diallo made the comments.
I certainly hope Diallo stays. But no one can presume that when he’s a top 5 recruit, and listed as going anywhere from 4-8 in mock drafts right now. And I’m sure Self won’t assume that he’s staying n his recruiting. He’ll assume he’s leaving – thus “presumed.”
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@jaybate-1.0 Are the lanes still going to be the same size in Div 1 or did they widen them? Wouldn’t the faster shot clock help in that regard as well?
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@HighEliteMajor Remember, Self has a penchant for giving his upperclass men the start at the beginning of the season and letting his OAD/TAD players work their way into starting. I would assume it will be the same with Diallo. Hunter gets the start at first, till Diallo “gets it”
Of course, this is all of it, just pure speculation. But, besides Wiggs and Selden a couple years ago, he really doesn’t let his freshmen get out from the toughening box very often.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I regularly cite the Rick Pitino comment about Kansas possibly having the top two pick in the draft.
I thought Pitino said the top pick two years in a row, but having searched I see your memory is better than mine.
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Self is already building the hype around Diallo:
"I can’t wait to get back and see him because if our fans find out anything about that kid is that some of the hardest playing guys that we’ve ever had, Chieck may play harder than any of them. He’s going to be a fun guy to watch. He’s got an unbelievable motor.”
He is already stating that this kid hustles more than any player he has previously coached at Kansas.
O A D !
Diallo only wanted to go to a school where he would get plenty of PT. That’s the sound kids make when they want to jump to the league quickly.
Unless he gets hurt or screws up off the court or something else unforeseen, it is very unlikely he will be back as a sophomore.
I’d love to have this kid for several years… but seriously… he’ll put up a stat line at least equaling Oubre. Oubre was one player down from being a lottery pick and he is guaranteed a contract.
O A D !
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@Lulufulu I still think Traylor starts with Ellis in game one. Energy, ya know.
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I don’t presume Diallo to be OAD. I think he is so raw on offense and until he proves he is a shot blocker at the college level he is going to be back. I hope he does prove that and that he can develop quickly. We just need a Montrezl Harrell type of season out of him. He just needs to be intimidating in the lane and make energy plays.
IF he does holy crap. I mean with the way Wayne and Frank are dominating, and the projection of how Svi is going to look this season we should be in for a 30+ win season.
My last thought. I know I’ll be in the minority. But I still think Svi is going to start this year. Only because if he plays like I think, and many NBA scouts think, guarding him AND Wayne at the same time is going to be a friggen nightmare. Plus, just if Frank gets in foul trouble that spells a long game for Devonte. Or worse, they both get in foul trouble and we have no point. I want to run two guard, just maybe not to start the game.
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Adding to my point that you can’t presume Diallo a OAD is this KC Star article. http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/campus-corner/article19399905.html
Its more like a 60% chance he leaves if you ask me…
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I just can’t see how Diallo doesn’t fill the bill. I know a lot of OAD’s don’t fulfill what they are supposed to be. Yet this kid just doesn’t rely on talent to prove his game. He has a motor that runs on high octane fuel. See when he played against the best OAD’s in the country and walked away MVP twice. That has to count for something.
In fact I would say Diallo doesn’t get enough love. Sadly and I hate to say it, but if this kid was at UK, Duke, or UNC OMG Espn would be creaming all over themselves to promote this kid.
Diallo will be starting for this season is over. I don’t see any of KU’s big men matching or just doing what he can do, even the designer.
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@REHawk Your take on Diallo is exactly the same as mine. I have done my research on this one and feel confident about it. Obviously there is no such thing as a sure thing but in my opinion, this guy is pretty much the perfect fit for this year’s team.
I do think there is a chance he stays for 2 years only to develop some offensive skills. But, its just a small chance.
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I am just glad Diallo is on campus attending classes and working with Hudy! I was actually worried that the Vegas Gamblers might snatch him up while HCBS was away?
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same size as far as I recall, but they may have changed the semi circle around the hoop. Can Anyone else answer lulu’s q on change in lane size?
Regarding the 30 second clock, Watching the 24 second clock has change my expectation. 30 may be too long to have much effect. It will take special defenses—pressing full court and falling back into matchup zones to make the 30 second much of a strategic factor. KU’s players are going to think 30 is forever, after 24.
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Re Diallo, a motor has never been enough for Self…ever.
TRob had an awesome motor as a freshman. He was terrible.
Kevin Young had a great motor, and arrived more mature, but he had to learn to drive first.
Motors are only useful AFTER you know how to drive.
The driver is everything.
As the Beatles sang:
“I don’t have a car, but you can be my driver… Baby, you can drive my car…”
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Actually the paint is wider.
Also maybe a motor isn’t enough but when a player walks away twice with the MVP playing against the best upcoming talent in the world should count for something. One time could be a fluke but twice and I believe three? No I’ll take the motor of Diallo. Trob and KYoung could only dream of having the talent Diallo has. Just my thoughts.
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Cool. That will increase the drive ball!
Hope they lower the clock to 24 the next season, so our guys are on a level playing field in foreign play and when they get to the NBA.
As far as Diallo’s first season being better than TRob’s last, that’s some serious amount of better.
I will have to see that to believe it!!!
But it would mean a ring I reckon, so…
ROCK CHALK!!!
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What a player thinks and what ends up happening are often enough quite different. Every single player in the to 30 considers himself a OAD but very few actually end up that way. Like I said, I prefer to see them as TAD and if they can work themselves to be true OAD, i.e. one that gets selected in the first round, then it means they played very productively for KU and I am good with that; however, if they end up like Selby or Alexander I feel KU and themselves got shorthanded. McLemore and Wiggins did well and they were worthy lottery picks. Selden was a presumed OAD and looks like it will be in his third year when he puts everything together and plays himself into a lottery pick.
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I"m hanging my hat on it. Diallo will be good as advertised. Of course he’ll have to learn how not to foul as all freshman do.
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I’m not a fan of the OAD either. I more in favor go to college you have to stay for 3 years. That’s just me. However sadly Diallo will be gone after his lone season with KU. On the bright side I see a championship in the future, and I’m not talking conference either.
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Amen to that
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@Kcmatt7 Ok, I read the blog you cited. What in that blog provides any insight suggesting that Diallo is not a presumed OAD?
@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for the insight. So, what a player thinks … meaning what is in his mind … and what ends up happening … meaning the final result … may actually be quite different? Very helpful. But what does that have to do with whether Diallo is a presumed OAD as we sit here in July?
You can “prefer to see them as TAD” all you want. You can click your heels and sprinkle pixie dust over their images on your iPad. You can even wish upon a star.
But nothing changes the fact that Diallo is a presumed OAD. The definition of presumed is, “assuming that something is the case on the basis of probability and information.”
Again, there is apparently difficultly understanding the word presumed. That means we should assume that he is an OAD unless we hear otherwise. It would mean that it is reasonable to assume that he is an OAD. It doesn’t mean it will happen for sure.
But Diallo sure as heck isn’t a presumed TAD.
As for stats, in the last 5 seasons, 21 of the 25 top 5 players in the Rivals rankings turned pro after their first CBB season. Last season, every player in the top 10 turned pro.
That would help support the fact that Diallo is a presumed OAD. A Rivals top 5 player is a presumed OAD, really, unless we hear otherwise.
And as for Diallo in particular, we have his intentions, in his own words, to go on top of the inescapable numbers.
In my humble opinion, the only reasonable way to look at this is how @RockkChalkk has stated it – “I do think there is a chance he stays for 2 years only to develop some offensive skills. But, it’s just a small chance.” That is reality. The word “presumed” has meaning.
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@HighEliteMajor The fact that of those guys listed in that article, a35-40% stayed another year or more. I probably should have stated that. So players similarly ranked and at the same position, about 40% stayed. That’s all I meant to say by that.
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@Lulufulu said:
Of course, this is all of it, just pure speculation. But, besides Wiggs and Selden a couple years ago, he really doesn’t let his freshmen get out from the toughening box very often.
Tyshawn started and played big minutes as a freshman. Ben McLemore depending on your view on him could fit this category. I would also cite the Morris twins, but that was because there was no other experienced option to put next to Cole.
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@Kcmatt7 21 out of 25 is 90% so 90% of Rivals top 5 have been OAD in the last 5 years. Even using your 60% number still means more likely than not that Diallo is OAD which still means he’s a presumed OAD.
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If we are talking about changes in NCAA rules, the paint is the same size but the arc under the basket has been expanded from 3 feet to 4 feet. Here is the official NCAA summary of the changes…
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I was referring to the international court. The paint is wider over there. That’s interesting though I had no idea the NCAA was making a change. I mean heard there was talk of it but didn’t know they decided to go through on it.
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All of that to make your usual condescending point for something I did not say?
I did not say that he is not a “presumed” OAD, I simply stated my “own” opinion that I (that means me and me alone) prefer to see him as a TAD and if he ends up being a OAD, it indicates he had a good year which is good for him and good for KU…I am good with that.
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I think his original question was about the NCAA…
“Are the lanes still going to be the same size in Div 1 or did they widen them? Wouldn’t the faster shot clock help in that regard as well?”
In any case several changes but none as big as the shorter shot clock and most are about enforcing the contact rules they introduced a couple of years ago and that have been enforced very unevenly.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Here is the official NCAA summary of the changes…
I like this one:
…the panel approved a rule that would allow officials to penalize players who fake fouls. The NCAA Men’s Basketball Rules Committee felt that players trying to draw fouls by deception is a growing issue.
The flop rule! How will they be penalized? Do the floppers get charged a foul? That would be very cool.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m challenging your illogical and flawed thought process. On this board, opinions get challenged. If you don’t like being challenged, don’t post your opinions. Better yet, try defending your opinion. I refuted your opinion as illogical. You have nothing, as usual.
You responded to my original post about Diallo being a presumed OAD, as follows:
“It really depends on how you see him and who applies the OAD label. I prefer to see him as TAD and if he develops fast he can turn into a OAD.”
That is clearly, plainly, and irrefutably a challenge to the statement that Diallo (“him”) is a presumed OAD. You say … again pretty clearly … that you see him (Diallo) as a TAD and if he develops, he can “turn into a OAD.” Which is much different than presuming he’s a OAD. You presume him to be a TAD – that’s what you said.
My response then was, basically, who in the basketball world doesn’t view Diallo as a presumed OAD? I also cited Diallo’s comments.
You then responded as follows: “What a player thinks and what ends up happening are often enough quite different. Every single player in the to 30 considers himself a OAD but very few actually end up that way. Like I said, I prefer to see them as TAD …”
You now say that you never said Diallo isn’t a presumed OAD – so it’s only that he is not a presumed OAD in your world?
Your “opinion” makes no sense. I’m interested, as always, as to how you defend your opinion. But you continue to play this silly game of “it’s only my opinion”, expecting that folks won’t challenge it. You did that with @jaybate-1.0 recently.
Guess what, I prefer to view Diallo a four and done. Makes sense, doesn’t it? Just my opinion. Be quiet and don’t challenge it.
The reason for my condescending tone is that it is well deserved.
With you, it’s same story, different verse. I have to admit that I do prefer your double-talk on topics like this, as opposed to when you attempt to wade into the deep end of the pool related to scheme, game planning, etc.
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I think Diallo is good at basketball but that’s just my opinion. Any takers on debating that statement?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Ahhhh yah good point.
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Now I am going to watch Shark week until the games starts tonight. Maybe Fantomworks on the velocity channel? I’m not sure but ya’ll can debate that while I enjoy my evening! Have fun and Rock Chalk Jay Hawk!
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@DoubleDD said:
Also maybe a motor isn’t enough but when a player walks away twice with the MVP playing against the best upcoming talent in the world should count for something. One time could be a fluke but twice and I believe three? No I’ll take the motor of Diallo. Trob and KYoung could only dream of having the talent Diallo has. Just my thoughts.
My thoughts are " I cant freekin wait to see Diallo lace 'em up for KU!! DD is right, the kid can just play and proves it by getting MVP in two tournaments against the best talent coming to Div 1! There is always a learning curve with any freshmen. We saw it with Wigs and with Biid but they improved enough during the year to get picked 1 & 3 respectively.
Why wouldn’t Diallo be able to be a top 5 pick in '16 AND have a killer season helping KU to the Final Four?
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And I forgot to tell you guys that if you like beer? And you like Grapefruit? Then you should try
Its SOOO good!
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@Statmachine Shark week and KU basketball in July! Its like Christmas!!
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@Lulufulu BECAUSE APPARENTLY HE IS A 2AD DUMMY! LOL JK
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Lets just hope he has a good year like our last 2 OAD’s! hahahahahahaha
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@Statmachine Ewww!(puke)
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I will say that it only takes potential to make the lotto. So presumably an OAD is all it takes. Just ask Oubre?
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@Statmachine what would you ask Cliff?
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@Crimsonorblue22 If borrowing money based off your future earnings was worth it?
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"I’m challenging your illogical and flawed thought process. On this board, opinions get challenged. If you don’t like being challenged, don’t post your opinions. Better yet, try defending your opinion. I refuted your opinion as illogical. You have nothing, as usual."
There is the root of the problem…
Opinion [uh-pin-yuh n]](link url) - noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
See the problem? You take other member’s opinions as fact when in fact they are not, and you take your opinions and present them as facts when they are not either.
See, an opinion is a personal belief that cannot be challenged, it can be questioned but not challenged; statements of facts, on the other han,d can be challenged as they refer to something that can be proven…or disproven as the case may be. Let me give you an example…
One can ask many people what is the most beautiful car ever built…one might say the Lamborghini Miura or the Ferrari California or the BMW 328 Roadster or the Aston Martin Zagato or,well , so many others; I personally like the Jaguar 1965 E-Type (my dream car). Now is any of these answers wrong? No, they are all personal and subjective**“opinions”** and as such cannot be challenged…of course they can be questioned, and if some one asks me why I like the Jag, I would describe the unique lines and shape…and the fact that Enzo Ferrari himself thought it was the most beautiful car ever built does not hurt The fact that I believe that the Jag is the most beautiful car does not mean it is or is not so. Now, if someone asks me which is the fastest car and I say the Jaguar, now they can “challenge” my answer because there is an “objective” answer to that question…take the cars to the tracks and verify which is the fastest…see where I am going?
In this or any other forum we post facts and opinions; the facts you can challenge, the opinions you can only question, get it? So, when you “challenge” me me to justify an “opinion” you are asking me to do something that cannot be done. When I present something as fact, then by all means challenge it, but when I submit an opinion you can only question it. Even my lowly Engineering curriculum, made accommodations for a class in Logic…didn’t you take one while in college?
When I post something as a fact, 9 out of 10 times I will post a link for the source of information, but when I post an opinion I don’t have to cite anything because by definition (see above) opinions are subjective and not subject to proof.
In your case, you present your personal opinions as facts and anyone that does not agree with them. i.e. me, is wrong. Do you see the fallacy of your argument?
More importantly, your entire argument is a straw man:
Straw man definition:
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.
Now:
Did I at any time indicate that Diallo was or was not a “presumed” OAD? NO
Did I at any time indicate that Diallo was or was not a “presumed” TAD? NO
Did I at any time I indicate that you were wrong and I was right? NO
Did I at any time I indicate that I was wrong and you were right? NO
Did I at any time I indicate that anyone was right or wrong? NO
…and more importantly…did I at any time, other than citing your statement. use the word “Presumed”? again, NO
So, you are going on tangent about and argument I did not present or advance. That is the text boob definition of a straw man.
This is what I said:
"I prefer to see them as TAD and if they can work themselves to be true OAD, i.e. one that gets selected in the first round, then it means they played very productively for KU and I am good with that"
Did you miss the word “prefer”? It clearly indicates a personal “O-P-I-N-I-O-N” and as such subjective, non-defensible and not subject to challenge. You can question all you want but as an opinion it is just that and as such it is not right or wrong. If you agree or disagree it does not make my opinion right or wrong any more than your “opinion” is not right…or wrong if I agree or disagree with it.
So…you went to all the the trouble and personal attack over nothing. I don’t agree with you on some issues but, to the best of my recollection, I have not gone and personally attacked you like you have attacked me. and I have not called you…what are the words you frequently use? ah yes…intellectually dishonest… have I? The most I have done is call your post condescending which you readily admit it was:
You: "The reason for my condescending tone is that it is well deserved."
See, the issue is that you believe that you are better than all of us lesser posters in this forum and you and you alone are right all the time…well, you are not, which begs the question, if you believe we are so intellectually below you, why do you even bother answering our posts?
Is is not that you challenge my opinions that I have a problem, it is that you are such a douche while doing it. On occasions I have disagreed with other members - it would be pretty boring if we didn’t- however, we present our opinions and sometimes we end up agreeing and sometimes we don’t, in which case we don’t go on personal ad hominem attacks, we simply and politely agree to disagree…this what grown ups do…isn’t it time for you to do likewise?
I come to this forum to share my love for KU sports, particularly basketball, with like minded individuals. I don’t come here to be berated and “challenged” to justify subjective opinions. Other than you and occasionally @Jaybate, although that has abated quite a bit lately, I don’t have an issue with any other member in this forum; I chat with other members off-line and e-mail with other members and non-members that visit this forum and we all get along just fine.
The only reason I can think that you seem to zero in on me is because I strongly disagree with your constant criticism of Coach Self, whom you believe is not nearly the coach you are, and his success really bugs you. From the messages I receive I know I am not the only one that feels this way but most just do not have the time or inclination to start…shall we say “a discussion?” with you. I personally don’t care one way or another and I would prefer that you ignore my posts altogether; however, when you attack me personally you leave me no choice but to respond in kind, hopefully in a more polite, reasoned and adult way.
I debated on whether to even answer you extremely rude post and I figured that at the very least you deserved to know how I feel. You can take my post any way you like, but in the words of Rhett Butler…well, you know the rest…:)
Peace out.
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@JayHawkFanToo Ok, I edited my original reply where I likened you to a little girl.
So let me get this straight, when you post your opinion (as we all do) no one is supposed to challenge it because it is “non-defensible”?Thus, it can’t be refuted?
So when you talk basketball, give you opinion on KU’s offense, or your opinion on Diallo, we should all just let it pass and not challenge your though process or logic?
You’re on another planet.
I express an “opinion” that Bill Self is making poor choices offensively (and I have the audacity to actually line out why) and it’s as if I’ve shot the Pope.
You make no sense.
