Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread
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@approxinfinity I’ll just mention some stuff here. Torvik is decent and free (what I used here). Kenpom and Evan Miyakawa are good ones that you have to pay for. They all kind of have their own specific metric for overall player rating that generally tells the same story.
Even though I have a sub for Miyakawa I still don’t see a way to do conference only so for the sake of comparsion I’ll post how Torvik and Miyakawa rate our players for the entire season.
Torvik
Hunter, Zeke, KJ, Juan, Flory, Rylan, Storr, Shak, Diggy
Miyakawa
Hunt, Juan, KJ, Rylan, Flory, Shak, Zeke, Storr, Diggy
Miyakwa not liking Zeke is interesting because whatever else you look at says he is good.
One of my favorite things about Miyakwa is line-up comparisons…
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@Jhawk69 I think his passing ability is heavily inflated because the majority of his passes are finding an open man because of something that created the open player that was not Juan related
Example: Team doubles Hunter and he kicks it out to Juan who rather than shoot a wide open 3 swings it to storr or zeke or whoever and that guy hits the 3. Juan gets the assist but he did something you and I can do with a quick swinging of the ball around the perimeter
A true legit pg CREATES passing opportunities and sets up his teammates from HIS PLAY. Ie Frank drives it and drops it off for a dunk or drives and kicks out to an open shooter.
Has Juan done these things before - absolutely but if you tracked the majority of his assists they are routine ball reversal passes not a situation where Juan “made something happen”
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We are unstoppable when Shak hits some treys, AJ plays D and O well, and Flory blocks/rebounds/scores… on top of Hunt’s standard double-double and ZEKE gets into double figures. Wow… 5 guys in double figures!
This all started when we turned up the D!
KJ should have to earn back his minutes! When he’s on it’s just adding in another warrior. When he’s off, he creates a monster hole on both sides of the ball.
From now on, Self better limit KJs minutes based on his production.
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@drgnslayr Love KJ to death, he gives you 125 % but he is just limited , and I think unfortunately we all know that when KJ comes back he will be right back in there and playing 30 minutes - Coach has just got to get Flory more minutes- -so talented, active, can guard in open space legit rim protector, If KJ really wants to help the School he loves so much , he wouldn’t have any problem coming off the bench and filling in for Flory & Hunter – not gonna happen but it should
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@SlimShaddy54 Flory is the only nba talent on the team and go figure Bill is holding him back for an upper classman who runs “his system” better in his mind
Swear we’ve never seen this before right @Jhawk69 it is a rarity for sure!
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@kuballin10 No. Bill often chooses veterans over more talented younger players. He does so because he believes them to be better players at that moment in time, not out of stubbornness.
Flory and KJ both deserve minutes and they both play. KJ plays a little more, but Flory is often in foul trouble, so it is what it is.
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Bidunga basically does everything KJ does and more. That makes KJ a logical backup.
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They are not that similar.
Flory gives us better rim protection, rebounding, and post-scoring.
KJ gives us better perimeter defense, ball-handling, ball-movement, and the ability to defend without fouling.
Neither one gives us shooting or floor spacing.
I believe their minutes (and Hunters) should be based on who is playing well on a given night, match-ups, and foul trouble. Ideally they all average between 25-30 minutes. Who “starts” and who doesn’t is completely irrelevant outside of pushing buttons.
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@Jhawk69 KJ is shooting 50%, Flory is shooting 80%.
Thats difference is basically like if every shot KJ made was a 3.
I would argue Flory helps more with floor spacing. By being so long and active in the lane it forces the defense to focus on him more.
I would also argue that Flory can guard just about anyone KJ can and more.
Flory rebounds and rim protects better. I would say KJ does rim protect, but not nearly as well as Flory.
KJ is a better handler but that trait is limited because defenses can sag off him.
KJ doesnt foul as much but Flory seems to be improving in that department.
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“Who starts and who doesnt is irrelevant” is just not true. It matters a great deal, as it impacts the flow of the game and it is a matter of confidence and pride.
I think we may need to dissect what is meant by pushing buttons. It isn’t trivial. Getting players to find their best selves is different from joystick coaching and neutering your players.
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@approxinfinity It matters for pressing buttons. Maybe some players or combos play with more confidence with the label “starter”. Maybe some players have a chip of their shoulder because they are on the bench. Maybe bringing a certain player off the bench can reinvigorate a team. But beyond that, it does not matter. If a good player does not start but still plays plenty of minutes, there is no need to panic about that player’s role on the team.
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@approxinfinity Got to say have heard many many times that it’s not important who starts the game - -you need to look out see who is on the floor at crunch time when the game is on the line.
A lot of times you will have situational substitutions sub one player in when your on the offensive end , and then switch when your on defensive end- -I go with the it doesn’t matter who starts- -Hell you go have Pee- Wee & the gang on the floor to start the game doesn’t matter- -it’s who the Coach feels more confident/better that’s on the floor at the end of the game
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@approxinfinity said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
“Who starts and who doesnt is irrelevant” is just not true. It matters a great deal, as it impacts the flow of the game and it is a matter of confidence and pride.
I think we may need to dissect what is meant by pushing buttons. It isn’t trivial. Getting players to find their best selves is different from joystick coaching and neutering your players.
I agree I really don’t care if KJ returns and hops back into the starting line up. But if KJ is still playing 30 minutes per game while Flory is playing 11-15 we have a problem between Bill Selfs ears. KJ can defend and be an energy guy maybe even more effectively if he’s not out there so long.
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@kjayhawks said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@approxinfinity said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
“Who starts and who doesnt is irrelevant” is just not true. It matters a great deal, as it impacts the flow of the game and it is a matter of confidence and pride.
I think we may need to dissect what is meant by pushing buttons. It isn’t trivial. Getting players to find their best selves is different from joystick coaching and neutering your players.
I agree I really don’t care if KJ returns and hops back into the starting line up. But if KJ is still playing 30 minutes per game while Flory is playing 11-15 we have a problem between Bill Selfs ears. KJ can defend and be an energy guy maybe even more effectively if he’s not out there so long.
KJ, Flory, and Hunter should all be between 25-30 minutes once KJ returns.
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Enjoying these takes about starting.
@Jhawk69 there was a lot of grumbling on our game thread about our slow start yesterday. I think it does matter who you start with for several reasons:
Starters set the tone
They can either let the other team get comfortable or rattle them
They almost always get the most minutes and the most shots
They play against the other team when the score is 0-0 and everyone has the most gas they are going to have.
Tell Storr it didnt matter that he came in against ISU when we were down and ISU had gone on a run and their crowd was behind him. Clearly, those are different minutes than coming into a game where we are up.
Just like it matters that KJ was injured and Storr knew he didnt have a quick hook.
We can say until we are blue in the face that a minute is just a unit of time, but the context of that minute matters a great deal.
If it didnt matter, we wouldnt pull guys out when they got foul trouble. Why “save them” for later if a minute is a minute?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 your gonna run a line up of 3 bigs for double digit minutes?
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@kjayhawks No. There are 80 minutes per game available at the 4 and 5 spots. We have 3 players that rotate at those 2 spots. 80/3 is 26.67 if my math is correct.
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@Jhawk69 said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@kjayhawks No. There are 80 minutes per game available at the 4 and 5 spots. We have 3 players that rotate at those 2 spots. 80/3 is 26.67 if my math is correct.
You could play them each for 25 I think and not have them all 3 out there at once. Just don’t believe that’s a winning strategy in any stretch of imagination. Teams already don’t respect our game on the perimeter. If you played them all for 28-30 minutes they would have to have several minutes with all 3 on the floor together. Smells like a first round exit in March. AJ seems to have turn a corner, don’t think him playing less is beneficial. We wouldn’t be able to run 4 guards hardly at all in that scenario. Meaning less minutes for AJ and Zeke likely.
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@kjayhawks I would like to play 4 guards, especially if AJ has turned a corner. My only concern would be that this team has practiced 3 guards all year
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@approxinfinity Great points. I do agree that the context of minutes matters. My only disagreement is that I don’t believe that having your best lineup out there for the first four minutes of the game matters that much. I am much more conerned about the last four minutes of the game or even the last four minutes of the first half.
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@kjayhawks Bill committed to 2 bigs early on and is way too stubborn to switch now
He’d make the same excuse @Jhawk69 said below that they hadn’t practiced it much or ran it much in games all year
I’d point to Bill and say yeah frankamp hardly played point and got the quick hook all year long yet when Tharpe sucked against Stanford you randomly decided to give Frankamp a longer leash - why not do that more throughout the year???
Same with how he’s effed up this teams offensive potential. Storr and Rylan have had horrible moments no doubt but heck so do juan and kj who screw up all the time especially against top tier opponents.
Instead of going nutz and pulling storr and Rylan let them labor through it (hell we labor anyways dolla bill) and make mistakes but see how it can help in the long run
He’s always struggled to do that and not shocked it’s happened yet again this year. His roster evaluation and then maximizing the talent prioritizing offense over defense (he’s the opposite) has always been our downfall
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@Jhawk69 said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@kjayhawks I would like to play 4 guards, especially if AJ has turned a corner. My only concern would be that this team has practiced 3 guards all year
Doesn’t seem like practicing three guards is a real thing? We switch just about everything on defense. Same. KJ plays and defends on the perimeter. Same. Sometimes run the weave. Same. Ok maybe not so much the weave anymore! What would the difference be?
Either way I’m fine with four guards or non bigs.
I think we ran some great sets against the horny toads. Toss it inside, Hunter kicks it out to a shooter. Perfect. The way it should be. We got a bit lucky when Shak made his shots. Not so lucky when Dickinson has no choice but to kick out to Dajuan.
I don’t think there a perfect answer this year with personnel, as Self won’t change playing his favs. But I’d love to have a true shooter on the floor next to Zeke.
That kick out offense is ideal for Hunter both as a passer and post up player. More!
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Don’t stop with the Flory stuff, your spot on. Self knows it too, he has to. Your limiting your team if Flory isn’t starting or playing 25 mins a game. He was a top 15 recruit for a reason and knew his potential and he’s already exceeding it. This is a pivotal plot to follow. Flory won’t be perfect every game but you stand a better shot against athletic front courts and defending the paint with him in the game to erase what Hunt isn’t going to do. Not just this year but if Flory is here next year with Peterson, your talking about 1-2 combo that’s going to be awesome to watch and impossible to stop
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@BShark thanks!
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@BeddieKU23 at this point, i hope Flory goes because it will mean that he was unleashed and took us deep in the tournament.
Side discussion idea: portal shopping for bigs… is hunter + flory a winning combo? We get 2 years out of someone like Hunter, can we reproduce this formula and get an extra bouncy big and a sloth scoring machine to pair with him?
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I think Flory will be back for one more year , if more then anything to develop a little more offensively then anything. Think he needs to try and add some more weight, maybe doesn’t need to be a lot where it will effect his mobility or anything like that , but if he goes pro right now and he have to try and match up with some of those bruisers in the NBA right now - -could be bad.
Plus this isn’t meant to be a knock on Flory but I just don’t think if he should happen to leave after this year he will be drafted as high- - - right now gonna be spot minutes if that.- - -Wait another year , continue to develop , add a little muscle/weight I think his Draft status be higher. I think for sur if he were to come back , then after next year he has a solid year, improve more yet he is gone. I think he is a two year guy and gone. - - - -Flory is going to be special , I hear a lot of analyst talk about how good he is and KU better enjoy him while they got him cause he is going to make a lot of money, He still is raw, but you can see it, getting better game by game , love the kid he HAS to see the floor as much as possible
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@kjayhawks said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 your gonna run a line up of 3 bigs for double digit minutes?
Nope, there’s 80 minutes to play between the 4 and 5 spots. Divide 80 minutes by 3 players and all 3 between 25 and 30 minutes is the result.
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@approxinfinity I hope Flory stays but it’s gonna suck when KJ gets 32+ minutes and Flory gets 22-23 mpg and we lose in the tourney because of it.
Flory dominates his minutes and kj puts up a 6 point 3 rebound type game……not sure what anyone could say to defend dolla Bill on that one
For your side note I want the quickest, bouncy 6-11+ big that can defend. Teach him 1-2 post moves. If he has a decent shot form wise - get him shooting the top of the key 3.
Self’s gonna favor defense so a big slow sloth who can guard a pnr isn’t the answer so let’s get the athletic freak who can defend
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So @kuballin10 what i an wondering though is if this is reproducable because hunter makes more cabbage here than he can make professionally. Maybe this brand of incomplete player works for us when paired with a bouncy raw guy
Might be easier to repro i mean
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@approxinfinity the Big Ern makes me think of the movie Kingpin
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I think Dujaun can be more than serviceable from three and is not afraid like he was. The sky is not falling yet and if Bill pulls him against Kelvin it’s probably a desperate situation. If AJ or Rylan can’t hit beans or Coit we need to keep playing them until they can. They have the stroke and Juan should keep shooting. We are such crybabies and spoiled. Grin and bear it just not bare it yet.
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I love KJ… it’s why I gave him hard love in my recent thread.
Most of you guys can replay the games. Go back after you watch for enjoyment and isolate your attention to KJ. No question he hustles… but he also gets caught watching the game like a spectator out there. Especially when the shot goes up. He should have already started heading toward the rim.
The difference in him make 50% fg and Flory making 80% is huge. It’s why KJ demands no respect from opposing defenses. They dare for him to shoot, even in midrange.
Of course he is setting picks, etc., but how valuable are those picks when he isn’t a threat at pick and roll? If I was a coach I would be spending time helping Flory master pick and roll.
KJ is great when he’s ON. And awful when he’s not. I’ll keep pounding this statement… he creates a big non-productive hole, right in the center of our offense. That is extremely valuable space and he devalues it when he can’t make a 12-ft floater.
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@drgnslayr Crazy mind numbing but hey kj impacts a game as much as Ochai………that’s what the $10m man sees and unfortunately all that matters
When Kj is healthy he’s starting and playing over 30 minutes once we reach big games and he’s fully healthy
Self may ease him back in
I mean just more proof doesn’t have his favorites (sarcasm)
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@approxinfinity I have a free advanced evaluation tool called my eyes and brain. Feel free to log on and dig for data.
Nice song by the way!
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I saw this from a couple of days. Bill was none too pleased with Hunter with his latest shenanigans.
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@wissox said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
I saw this from a couple of days. Bill was none too pleased with Hunter with his latest shenanigans.
That was some crap you expect in middle school. This is literally the biggest point of emphasis our refs have towards my middle school team, when the whistle blows, you stop fighting for the ball. I’ve had players get T’s because they didn’t stop at the whistle and I’ve had opponents get T’s for not stopping. The reason refs are so strict on this at the middle school level, and I’m sure high school as well is that stuff like fighting over a held ball trying to prove who the strongest or toughest is can lead to fights because players let their emotions and pride take over.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yeah that was a little bit, check that, a lot bit strange.
