Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread
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Hard to see “consistent” production from Shak when he’s playing out of position at the 2 guard spot and only 20-25 mpg……it’s as if everyone who was a legit pg said no way in hell would I come here to sit behind $10 dolla bill’s “beloved d2”
Self: “I didn’t think anybody other than Flory was worth a flip the first half.”
Then, in the second half, “AJ was really good, he was terrific, and Shak was the best guard we had tonight. That was production that we haven’t been getting consistently, so that was great to see.”
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@kuballin10 Juan played way too much tonight for how bad he was, think most logical folks would agree.
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Best lineup: Shak, Zeke, Storr,Flory and Hunter
Lineup Self feels is best: d2, out of position 2g (moore), undersized 3 man (Mayo), 4 man who can’t shoot and isn’t guarded and Hunter
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@kjayhawks everyone yet bill who refused to sit him
6th year senior looking like a freshman out there jump passing at the top of the key and he gets UNLIMITED LEASH
How everyone can’t see it is unfathomable
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@kuballin10 so, while i have no idea if thats the best lineup because i dont know if we have seen it at all, even tonight.
But, its exactly the lineup i would like to see.
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We finished the game on a 64 - 37 run in the last 30 minutes. That’s dominance and after shooting ourselves in the foot. It’s just silly to do that. We get a taste of how good we can be. Not there yet but all that bench scoring should have been in addition to Juan and Zeke’s usual output.
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Hunter Dickinson Highlights vs. TCU (16 Pts, 9 Rebs, 4 Asts)
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AJ Storr Highlights vs. TCU (12 Pts, 6 Rebs, 3 Stls)
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Flory Bidunga Highlights vs. TCU (10 Pts, 10 Rebs, 4 Blks)
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This may be an unpopular opinion, but I FREAKING LOVED that Hunter held on to that jump ball! Love to see him get fired up.
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Flory, Shak and AJ were incredible tonight. Really solid Hunter game too
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Like the havoc Shak and Flory were causing defensively man…
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@TYOHawk said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
Like the havoc Shak and Flory were causing defensively man…
Shak is like a defensive back reading the passing lanes.
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Heres the story,
Of a man named Billy,
Who was bringing in 3 very high priced wings,
2 of them would play no D, just like Hunter,
The mean team age was old.
Heres the story,
Of a man named Flory,
Who could rim protect and run just like an elk,
He would do a lot of things in spot minutes,
But he was riding pine…
…. Insert verse 3 about circumstances leading up to TCU game …
Bidunga’s Bunch!
Bidunga’s Bunch!
Thats the way we became Bidunga’s Bunch!
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@BShark said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@TYOHawk said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
Like the havoc Shak and Flory were causing defensively man…
Shak is like a defensive back reading the passing lanes.
His POA defense as well…it had me speechless. Teaching tape at the next practice…my goodness
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@BShark Shak is the athlete and d1 pg perfect for this team that bill thinks Juan has been for years
Shak is a better on ball defender, better off ball defender, quicker, better leaper and can get to the paint better than Juan
Shak struggles to score and shoot outside but he turns defense into offense
Shak is better than Juan but Bill will never see that or admit it. He will play Juan 32-35 mpg next to shak for about 25 of them……and shak playing off the ball for all 25. He has diggy as that 2-3 minute guy replacing juan
Poor roster management and talent evaluation
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@rockchalkjayhawk It just kind of played itself out. Diallo stepped in when he shouldn’t have and it would have been over no biggie. I liked how we represented our selves during the dance. The refs didn’t over react and we knew the double technicals for peace were coming. Could have been bad with stitches and all.
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Dajuan has value cause he’s a better passer and catch and shoot guy than Shak. But I would like to see Shak as the primary backup when Juan is sitting instead of Diggy.
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@TYOHawk said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@BShark said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@TYOHawk said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
Like the havoc Shak and Flory were causing defensively man…
Shak is like a defensive back reading the passing lanes.
His POA defense as well…it had me speechless. Teaching tape at the next practice…my goodness
Yeah, our defense has been better when we have Shak there instead of Dajuan. TCU definitely has some shot makers. They hit some tough ones last night. Just have to tip your hat on the one where the guy hit a fadeaway on Shak. Thought over all after the ABYSMAL start that we defended solidly.
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@TYOHawk said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
Dajuan has value cause he’s a better passer and catch and shoot guy than Shak. But I would like to see Shak as the primary backup when Juan is sitting instead of Diggy.
Shak still messes up the sets a bit is why I assume Bill had been going with Diggy but I think you just need to live with that because it’s a night and day difference in terms of their overall play.
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I don’t think to many actually thought our defense would be as it is. A lot of talk in the beginning of the Season that our defense would be an issue- -Now as it actually turns out, defense pretty salty. # 4 ranked defense they are saying, don’t ask me where they are saying just from I guess others have seen- -thinking Kenpom- -that’s not to bad
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@BShark said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@TYOHawk said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
Dajuan has value cause he’s a better passer and catch and shoot guy than Shak. But I would like to see Shak as the primary backup when Juan is sitting instead of Diggy.
Shak still messes up the sets a bit is why I assume Bill had been going with Diggy but I think you just need to live with that because it’s a night and day difference in terms of their overall play.
Yeah I’d rather get Shak the on ball reps but I get why Self is going with Diggy. Self loves a security blanket
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@BShark Man wish you could text Bill this because no way he’d believe it.
He’s so stuck on Juan he’d never not start him at point and forces Shak to play out of position.
Also, our defense didn’t miss kj last night and actually with kj I think we could lose that game because we wouldn’t have had the output from storr.
Winning 70’s to low 60’s is what top teams do……not win rock fights in the 50’s that Bill is obsessed over
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@TYOHawk Dolla Bill’s near sightedness that has always got him. Shak should get all the reps even if he messes some sets up as it’s the best learning experience vs just in practice
I don’t agree d2 is a better passer or catch and shoot shooter than shak. Shooting they are similar especially if Shak knew he could shoot freely and not get pulled.
Shak actually has guys guard him versus d2 who is wide open and still hesitated to shoot or when he does clanks it 60% of the time.
If teams left Shak as open he’d easily shoot better
D2 struggles to beat his man off the dribble and his “great passes” are just swinging it around the top of the key. He also is abysmal on ball for the last two years. 1 out of every 20 games he comes out and D’s up his man but the other 19 games he is slow, disinterested and a horribly loose handle
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@kuballin10 I know you think DaJuan is bad but do you really not think he is at least a good passer?
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Dajuan and Shak should be a two headed monster at PG, with one of them coming in for Mayo if we need defense or if Mayo is cold.
Favoritism for Dajuan when Shak gives us energy is the problem.
But Juan is generally the better passer and runs Self’s action better.
Shak demonstrated he can get hot with his shot which was awesome. And his defense off ball is fantastic and on ball is formidable.
As long as minutes split going forward is about even and as needed, it will be fine.
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Conference only, including last night. Notably Diggy’s minutes are going way down lately in favor of Shak which is a good decision. Flory should also play as much as possible, and even though Self will not I would play him as much as possible even when KJ is back.
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I think i am ready to nerd out on advanced metrics. Can you DM me and tell me who I have to pay where to get some juicy data i can fiddle with @BShark ?
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@approxinfinity I’ll just mention some stuff here. Torvik is decent and free (what I used here). Kenpom and Evan Miyakawa are good ones that you have to pay for. They all kind of have their own specific metric for overall player rating that generally tells the same story.
Even though I have a sub for Miyakawa I still don’t see a way to do conference only so for the sake of comparsion I’ll post how Torvik and Miyakawa rate our players for the entire season.
Torvik
Hunter, Zeke, KJ, Juan, Flory, Rylan, Storr, Shak, Diggy
Miyakawa
Hunt, Juan, KJ, Rylan, Flory, Shak, Zeke, Storr, Diggy
Miyakwa not liking Zeke is interesting because whatever else you look at says he is good.
One of my favorite things about Miyakwa is line-up comparisons…
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@Jhawk69 I think his passing ability is heavily inflated because the majority of his passes are finding an open man because of something that created the open player that was not Juan related
Example: Team doubles Hunter and he kicks it out to Juan who rather than shoot a wide open 3 swings it to storr or zeke or whoever and that guy hits the 3. Juan gets the assist but he did something you and I can do with a quick swinging of the ball around the perimeter
A true legit pg CREATES passing opportunities and sets up his teammates from HIS PLAY. Ie Frank drives it and drops it off for a dunk or drives and kicks out to an open shooter.
Has Juan done these things before - absolutely but if you tracked the majority of his assists they are routine ball reversal passes not a situation where Juan “made something happen”
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We are unstoppable when Shak hits some treys, AJ plays D and O well, and Flory blocks/rebounds/scores… on top of Hunt’s standard double-double and ZEKE gets into double figures. Wow… 5 guys in double figures!
This all started when we turned up the D!
KJ should have to earn back his minutes! When he’s on it’s just adding in another warrior. When he’s off, he creates a monster hole on both sides of the ball.
From now on, Self better limit KJs minutes based on his production.
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@drgnslayr Love KJ to death, he gives you 125 % but he is just limited , and I think unfortunately we all know that when KJ comes back he will be right back in there and playing 30 minutes - Coach has just got to get Flory more minutes- -so talented, active, can guard in open space legit rim protector, If KJ really wants to help the School he loves so much , he wouldn’t have any problem coming off the bench and filling in for Flory & Hunter – not gonna happen but it should
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@SlimShaddy54 Flory is the only nba talent on the team and go figure Bill is holding him back for an upper classman who runs “his system” better in his mind
Swear we’ve never seen this before right @Jhawk69 it is a rarity for sure!
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@kuballin10 No. Bill often chooses veterans over more talented younger players. He does so because he believes them to be better players at that moment in time, not out of stubbornness.
Flory and KJ both deserve minutes and they both play. KJ plays a little more, but Flory is often in foul trouble, so it is what it is.
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Bidunga basically does everything KJ does and more. That makes KJ a logical backup.
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They are not that similar.
Flory gives us better rim protection, rebounding, and post-scoring.
KJ gives us better perimeter defense, ball-handling, ball-movement, and the ability to defend without fouling.
Neither one gives us shooting or floor spacing.
I believe their minutes (and Hunters) should be based on who is playing well on a given night, match-ups, and foul trouble. Ideally they all average between 25-30 minutes. Who “starts” and who doesn’t is completely irrelevant outside of pushing buttons.
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@Jhawk69 KJ is shooting 50%, Flory is shooting 80%.
Thats difference is basically like if every shot KJ made was a 3.
I would argue Flory helps more with floor spacing. By being so long and active in the lane it forces the defense to focus on him more.
I would also argue that Flory can guard just about anyone KJ can and more.
Flory rebounds and rim protects better. I would say KJ does rim protect, but not nearly as well as Flory.
KJ is a better handler but that trait is limited because defenses can sag off him.
KJ doesnt foul as much but Flory seems to be improving in that department.
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“Who starts and who doesnt is irrelevant” is just not true. It matters a great deal, as it impacts the flow of the game and it is a matter of confidence and pride.
I think we may need to dissect what is meant by pushing buttons. It isn’t trivial. Getting players to find their best selves is different from joystick coaching and neutering your players.
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@approxinfinity It matters for pressing buttons. Maybe some players or combos play with more confidence with the label “starter”. Maybe some players have a chip of their shoulder because they are on the bench. Maybe bringing a certain player off the bench can reinvigorate a team. But beyond that, it does not matter. If a good player does not start but still plays plenty of minutes, there is no need to panic about that player’s role on the team.
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@approxinfinity Got to say have heard many many times that it’s not important who starts the game - -you need to look out see who is on the floor at crunch time when the game is on the line.
A lot of times you will have situational substitutions sub one player in when your on the offensive end , and then switch when your on defensive end- -I go with the it doesn’t matter who starts- -Hell you go have Pee- Wee & the gang on the floor to start the game doesn’t matter- -it’s who the Coach feels more confident/better that’s on the floor at the end of the game
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@approxinfinity said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
“Who starts and who doesnt is irrelevant” is just not true. It matters a great deal, as it impacts the flow of the game and it is a matter of confidence and pride.
I think we may need to dissect what is meant by pushing buttons. It isn’t trivial. Getting players to find their best selves is different from joystick coaching and neutering your players.
I agree I really don’t care if KJ returns and hops back into the starting line up. But if KJ is still playing 30 minutes per game while Flory is playing 11-15 we have a problem between Bill Selfs ears. KJ can defend and be an energy guy maybe even more effectively if he’s not out there so long.
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@kjayhawks said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@approxinfinity said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
“Who starts and who doesnt is irrelevant” is just not true. It matters a great deal, as it impacts the flow of the game and it is a matter of confidence and pride.
I think we may need to dissect what is meant by pushing buttons. It isn’t trivial. Getting players to find their best selves is different from joystick coaching and neutering your players.
I agree I really don’t care if KJ returns and hops back into the starting line up. But if KJ is still playing 30 minutes per game while Flory is playing 11-15 we have a problem between Bill Selfs ears. KJ can defend and be an energy guy maybe even more effectively if he’s not out there so long.
KJ, Flory, and Hunter should all be between 25-30 minutes once KJ returns.
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Enjoying these takes about starting.
@Jhawk69 there was a lot of grumbling on our game thread about our slow start yesterday. I think it does matter who you start with for several reasons:
Starters set the tone
They can either let the other team get comfortable or rattle them
They almost always get the most minutes and the most shots
They play against the other team when the score is 0-0 and everyone has the most gas they are going to have.
Tell Storr it didnt matter that he came in against ISU when we were down and ISU had gone on a run and their crowd was behind him. Clearly, those are different minutes than coming into a game where we are up.
Just like it matters that KJ was injured and Storr knew he didnt have a quick hook.
We can say until we are blue in the face that a minute is just a unit of time, but the context of that minute matters a great deal.
If it didnt matter, we wouldnt pull guys out when they got foul trouble. Why “save them” for later if a minute is a minute?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 your gonna run a line up of 3 bigs for double digit minutes?
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@kjayhawks No. There are 80 minutes per game available at the 4 and 5 spots. We have 3 players that rotate at those 2 spots. 80/3 is 26.67 if my math is correct.
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@Jhawk69 said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@kjayhawks No. There are 80 minutes per game available at the 4 and 5 spots. We have 3 players that rotate at those 2 spots. 80/3 is 26.67 if my math is correct.
You could play them each for 25 I think and not have them all 3 out there at once. Just don’t believe that’s a winning strategy in any stretch of imagination. Teams already don’t respect our game on the perimeter. If you played them all for 28-30 minutes they would have to have several minutes with all 3 on the floor together. Smells like a first round exit in March. AJ seems to have turn a corner, don’t think him playing less is beneficial. We wouldn’t be able to run 4 guards hardly at all in that scenario. Meaning less minutes for AJ and Zeke likely.
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@kjayhawks I would like to play 4 guards, especially if AJ has turned a corner. My only concern would be that this team has practiced 3 guards all year
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@approxinfinity Great points. I do agree that the context of minutes matters. My only disagreement is that I don’t believe that having your best lineup out there for the first four minutes of the game matters that much. I am much more conerned about the last four minutes of the game or even the last four minutes of the first half.
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@kjayhawks Bill committed to 2 bigs early on and is way too stubborn to switch now
He’d make the same excuse @Jhawk69 said below that they hadn’t practiced it much or ran it much in games all year
I’d point to Bill and say yeah frankamp hardly played point and got the quick hook all year long yet when Tharpe sucked against Stanford you randomly decided to give Frankamp a longer leash - why not do that more throughout the year???
Same with how he’s effed up this teams offensive potential. Storr and Rylan have had horrible moments no doubt but heck so do juan and kj who screw up all the time especially against top tier opponents.
Instead of going nutz and pulling storr and Rylan let them labor through it (hell we labor anyways dolla bill) and make mistakes but see how it can help in the long run
He’s always struggled to do that and not shocked it’s happened yet again this year. His roster evaluation and then maximizing the talent prioritizing offense over defense (he’s the opposite) has always been our downfall
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@Jhawk69 said in Big Ern’s Frogs meet The Bidunga Bunch — Game Thread:
@kjayhawks I would like to play 4 guards, especially if AJ has turned a corner. My only concern would be that this team has practiced 3 guards all year
Doesn’t seem like practicing three guards is a real thing? We switch just about everything on defense. Same. KJ plays and defends on the perimeter. Same. Sometimes run the weave. Same. Ok maybe not so much the weave anymore! What would the difference be?
Either way I’m fine with four guards or non bigs.
I think we ran some great sets against the horny toads. Toss it inside, Hunter kicks it out to a shooter. Perfect. The way it should be. We got a bit lucky when Shak made his shots. Not so lucky when Dickinson has no choice but to kick out to Dajuan.
I don’t think there a perfect answer this year with personnel, as Self won’t change playing his favs. But I’d love to have a true shooter on the floor next to Zeke.
That kick out offense is ideal for Hunter both as a passer and post up player. More!
