Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread
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@kuballin10 u were called negative because you are negative. Juan would be fine if he had the right crew around him. You just can’t have this many guys who aren’t shooters. want Juan to be one of them fine.
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@kuballin10 why arent you dogging Elmarko? Kid can’t shoot the 3 ball, or dogging Nick? Clearly underwhelming. Or bitch about Self recruiting a rapist that has made exactly zero threes for KU. Juan is better than all those guys. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
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@approxinfinity said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
@kuballin10 why arent you dogging Elmarko? Kid can’t shoot the 3 ball, or dogging Nick? Clearly underwhelming. Or bitch about Self recruiting a rapist that has made exactly zero threes for KU. Juan is better than all those guys. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
Greta questions let’s dive in.
Elmarko has played organized ball for what 3-4 years he wasn’t to be relied on as some come in and dominate Wiggins type.
Nick - staff whiffed and he is bad.
Morris - On self
Two of the three suck because guards know the pg spot is untouchable it’s the reason we can’t get anyone worth their salt.
The reason I dog Juan is because it’s his team he’s the senior he knows the system he’s supposed to step up and score 12 ppg and LEAD the team.
It’s the expectation for every KU pg who’s jr or sr here!!! Why does Bill and you and the entire fan base excuse it or not replace him with a better pg???
I couldn’t fathom Dotson not scoring and everyone was cool with it and instead blaming our bench for not picking up a starters production.
What about Mason or Graham did we blame the bench as to why Mason or Graham didn’t lead successful teams? No, cause they took the reins and scored.
This whole crux of the bench needs to step up is asinine. The top 5 guys all have to be a threat to score and look to score.
We got a Sr pg who it’s his time and he can’t cut it and we got an entire year with him doing this crap all over again
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Aaron Miles couldnt lead the team through scoring when we lost to Bucknell. Russ Rob wouldnt have done it by himself. We knew Dajuan wasnt a score first guard. Everything around Dajuan is a dumpster fire. Come on man.
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I just dont understand recruiting Elmarko. Again, with 20-20 hindsight. Not a scorer. Should have recruited 3 capable scorers at guard and got none.
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@kuballin10 said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
@TYOHawk said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
@kuballin10 said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
@Crimsonorblue22 Comment I referenced was with Hanni postgame which isn’t the media and espn+….I wasn’t lying
@TYOHawk - I just don’t get it. His protection of said player over and over when he’s been atrocious in his senior year and not “scored when he wants to”….is just proving what recruits see that Bill plays favorites.
The 1 is locked in for next year and so is the 4….there will be a reason we miss on big time recruits at those positions yet again……
Coach told us the guys around Juan have to be better. Which is 100 percent true. But if you’re only serviceable when you play next to pro wings and all conference bigs…then how good are you truly?
The constant defending and pushing the blame on other players just shows Bills true colors. It is literally never Juan’s fault in Bills mind.
I thought I would never see a player beat out Jamari or Frank as Self’s favorite. But I truly believe Dajuan has surpassed them.
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@approxinfinity for sure, Self should take some heat for this roster. I said he seat should be warm after this on another thread and got in trouble lol. Not saying you fire the guy but he needs to take accountability for this team in some light. Talking heads will do it if we get bounced early next week.
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Perhaps that’s true about Juan being maxed out as a player here. But he does have 1 offseason left to work on his game and we can all just hope that Self not only brings in enough quality depth where Juan can actually get a rest in games but the competition it will bring by having others in the room will help to keep Juan sharp and continuing to grow. I mean there has to be a % of Juan’s struggles this year being attributed to zero competition at the PG position and no opportunity for a rest. No iron sharpening iron here. Elmarko cannot play the position and is frankly overmatched at this level currently. Same happened the previous year with Pettiford and Yesufu.
I would agree I don’t think Juan is going to become the athletic & offensive player we want. It is what it is.
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Let’s remember that Coach was either just getting out of or was still in the hospital this time last year. That health issue, coupled with the SELF imposed discontinuing recruitment visits and the first 4 games of the season, helped create the roster we were left with. He is, in my opinion, a part of the reason for the season that was just played out. We went from #1 in preseason to losing the most conference games in decades. Injuries have always plagued us (Embid, Doke, even Dave McC and on and on) but there were reliable shooters/defenders always on the bench. We just plain and simple didn’t have a one that we deep down knew could pull his weight.
No offense = no points.
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@kuballin10 So why don’t you start your own topic - “Bill is Juan blind dude with respect to the PG” and voice your displeasure all you want and you can vent and we can just ignore your opinion. People that are interested could read what you have to say. That would save a lot of irritation for all of us unless you like being irritating. You have been heard! We know your stance! You have given us Pete (original opinion) and repeat ad nauseum! It would be good to hear other opinions that you have other than dogging Juan. Just saying. Have a great day! (Seriously).
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I totally get the frustrations with Juan and its nothing to do with how good he is as a person. I think we all agree on that. Its just really tough to watch him out there still playing like a freshmen when he is a senior with so much experience.
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@patoh3 i agree with this request that you @kuballin10 make your own thread but also i am fully prepared to talk this out there. I think it warrants its own thread on the merits (if not for toxicity containment)
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I think Aaron Miles, Russ Rob and Marcus Garrett are all the right comps here. As much as I love Frank he didnt get to a FF. All three of these guys and Dajuan did.
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@BeddieKU23 definitely valid points about Juan and the situation but not very many good PGs are gonna want come in and play second fiddle to him. Best bet to me is to get a guy from the portal that is proven to be decent just needs to improve his game while having 2 or 3 years left to play.
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@approxinfinity said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
I think Aaron Miles, Russ Rob and Marcus Garrett are all the right comps here. As much as I love Frank he didnt get to a FF. All three of these guys and Dajuan did.
All 3 are better than Juan imo and it’s not really close either.
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@kjayhawks said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
@BeddieKU23 definitely valid points about Juan and the situation but not very many good PGs are gonna want come in and play second fiddle to him. Best bet to me is to get a guy from the portal that is proven to be decent just needs to improve his game while having 2 or 3 years left to play.
True best case scenario is Philon becomes a star immediately. Very unlikely though
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@approxinfinity I don’t think making a FF is a must for a great PG. I think at least one good run is true but I think Frank gets a FF is one of our best players in Doke wasn’t injured. Who they play with is a great measuring stick to me. Looking at Juan, the other guys on the floor with him on that title team. Ochai- NBA, Braun- NBA, J-Wil - NBA and Big David is carving out a solid career over seas. You look at RusRobs best team in 08 it also is filled with NBA talent. I think we all agree having talent around you not only makes you better but is able to mask some of your weaknesses.
Edit: few other PGs had a back ups like Sherron Collins (RusRob) and Remy Martin (Juan). It’s worth noting that Sherron played 34 minutes to RusRobs 20 in the NC and Remy Played 21 to Juan’s 27 but played almost all of the second half and more than Juan in other tournament games.
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@TYOHawk The list of PGs I think Juan is better than since Self has been here. Tharpe and Hawkins, that’s the list. Yes he has a NC but as I said above he didn’t play a ton the last 15 minutes and had a bone head turnover and when he did. Also the minutes logged is a factor to me.
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Stat I just came across on X, anyone wanna guess the last time Kansas lost back to back games by 20 plus points? 1919 under coach Hamilton against Fizzou in back to back games.
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Well that is depressing.
My 2 cents: Russ Rob and Sheron are a good comparison. As a tandem, Russ was the floor general but Sherron found more and more minutes as the season progressed for his contrasting abilities, including scoring.
In 21-22, Juan worked out well with Remy similarly. i recall the team looking very sketchy during many games that season when Remy wasn’t available and Juan had to play the majority of minutes.
There were three ways Remy made Juan better: 1) Remy was a scoring threat — especially 3s — so he took significant scoring burden off Juan, 2) Remy sometimes replaced Juan and that allowed Juan to be more fresh, and 3) Remy was stylistically a completely different kind of PG, which was complimentary but also - don’t underestimate this - hard for teams to adjust back and forth.
I believe Self was trying to get a similar pair this year with Juan and Arterio. It never had a chance to play out but I can imagine that a second guard like Arterio would have been a game changer because he’s so different/complimentary to Juan. Juan has some solid qualities. He clearly has Self’s confidence in running the offense and is a good passer. He can be a solid second tier scorer.
This year - and especially in these recent games where we’ve been without a tier 1 scorer - we needed him to be something he is not.
I think it’s wrong to beat him to a pulp for this. I even give Self some slack because I think he knows Juan’s limitations. You can’t win championships if you aren’t intimately aware of each player’s strengths (and weaknesses) and set them up for success.
Shit happens. Sometimes multiple shit happens. That’s where we are right now. But that’s not where we have to be next year. And let’s not sound like whiny, overreacting Kentucky fans while we process our disappointing season.
It’s a fricking miracle we haven’t had a similarly down year in the last 25 years.
Appropriately, Self and the staff will do some reflection and look for ways to improve. The game is evolving. I can see changes to the officiating and I also see teams scouting us much more effectively. Maybe we are too predictable. I leave it to the basketball minds to figure it out.
Anyway, go back and look at Juan in 21-22. The 23-24 version is largely the same. Self values that consistency and predictability in the PG. Remy drove him crazy. Sherron had to grow into that role. Devonte did too (recall it was Mason.and Graham initially)
It is what it is. And what it usually is, is 25 wins and a conference championship. Not this year, but… usually.
We will still be in the tournament (I would not be surprised if the committee hits us with a 6-seed). We still have the same opportunity that every other team in the tourney has.
We could capture lightning in a bottle and win 6 straight.
Or, we could lose in the first round. That would suck but I doubt any of us would be shocked.
Either way, the sun will come up tomorrow
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@bskeet I agree completely and would add that Harris’s presence on the team allowed Self to slow walk Remy and in essence force him to play better D before getting significant PT. And dollars to donuts Harris helped Remy with how to do that. Harris is a solid team player. But, as you point out, he has limitations and needs to be paired with complementary players to be at his best. And this year, sadly, he wasn’t.
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@kjayhawks said in Short Handed Hawks vs Cincy Game Thread:
Stat I just came across on X, anyone wanna guess the last time Kansas lost back to back games by 20 plus points? 1919 under coach Hamilton against Fizzou in back to back games.
Oh, we were a mess back then too. “Send Hamilton to the Germans, maybe we’ll finish them off” was a common comment on the Bucket.
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@wissox the immortal Leonard Hamilton.
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I think we go after the top end guards to find a starter and then hopefully pick up a mid-major guy who’s proven himself or a young P5 Player on the rise.
If we don’t have at least 3 PG options going into next season I don’t understand what we are doing. All year it’s been a glaring issue. Juan shouldn’t be playing 36 minutes a game even if he was your star scorer. It’s nuts.
Philon coming in is going to be good but tough to know how good he can be in year 1 until we start hearing what’s going on in summer/fall
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As I look at the highly rated teams, most have PG’s that score and have a number of assists. Would really like to have that next year…
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@Gorilla72 Guards win in March…see big 12 and big east title games.
We aren’t looking at any starting pg’s because in Bill’s mind we have the best pg in America. I’ve read many other posters on this site and especially the other site that are the most disinterested in next year because who is at that spot.
Pretty frustrating when the coach who supposedly never guarantees starter minutes has two guys that are absolutely untouchable (especially Juan next year).
Juan is the 6/7th best pg in the big 12 and that’s proven to be who we are even with TWO all Americans around him.
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@kuballin10 two injured 3rd team all americans, to be clear.
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I dont buy the “untouchable” business. Sherron didnt ride pine. Malik and Remy had time to shine, etc. If we had a capable scorer that could spell Dajuan we would use them.
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@approxinfinity Bill is notorious for starting guys but finishing with other guys. There’s no reason roster spot 6 and 7 shouldn’t be getting BIG minutes unless they just aren’t producing. Which is what is happening this year. Those 8-10 spots are really role dependent but we always need a back up big and a back up guard that can come in without any drop in level of play or even provide a spark or a little different look. If the dudes were there, Self would play them. He always has.
