Big 12 Expansion
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
@Gorilla72 said in Big 12 Expansion:
With OU & UT leaving, it’s actually back to 12? Took long enough. Looks like it will hurt conference baseball without OU & UT, though.
Yes. Makes me wonder how many sports will be damaged and will some be helped?
I’m sure someone out there knows… hope to hear a response.
Just the revenue deficit alone will make competing nationally more of a challenge. When the inevitable happens and Self retires, we won’t have the resources to write a blank check to anyone we want. There will be less revenue for football stadium renovations and improvements. We’re trying to rebuild the baseball program now and renovate Hoglund, which takes money. Ditto swim team facilities. Track and Field should be ok. RCP is an incredible venue and should cement us as a destination for teams all across the country.
The basketball schedule will get whacky, with KU likely getting fewer primetime slots. There’s talk a chunk of the Big 12 hoops schedule could move to Thursdays and Sundays, which could mean we’re up against the NFL for ratings. Just us hardcore will watch KU basketball instead of the Chiefs (which, I’m not a fan but there’s clearly a TON of crossover). But that’s ESPN’s call, not ours. All for a reduced payout over what we’re getting now, and a conference without much of an identity. What do KU, BYU, Cincy, and Texas Tech have in common? The new Big 12 is a marriage of convenience, no more, no less.
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BYU can’t play on Sundays if I recall. Wonder how that would work if it came to it
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@BeddieKU23 said in Big 12 Expansion:
BYU can’t play on Sundays if I recall. Wonder how that would work if it came to it
That’s right. The NCAA ran into this a few times when BYU advanced in the hoops tournament. They ended up planning to swap days so BYU’s region would play Saturday, the other would play Sunday. I suppose they just wouldn’t schedule them for any Sunday games
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All 4 schools have stronger baseball program histories than ours (except for that aberrant CWS appearance).
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Baseball, softball and track and field are the sports that would feel the most immediate impact from UT and OU leaving the Big 12. Obviously OU just won the NCAA softball title (5 titles in the last 1o years). UT was OU’s opponent in the softball final, so there’s that. Texas and Oklahoma both also advanced to the college baseball world series.
Texas’ track and field team is one of the best in the country (was ranked #1 this season), although both Baylor and Texas Tech have very strong programs. OU is a top program as well (definitely top 25, probably top 15 or 20). That said, Houston and BYU are comparable to OU in track, so the drop off isn’t huge there.
Texas is a top notch volleyball program on the women’s side. OU not so much.
Oklahoma is ranked #1 in men’s golf. Texas is in the top 10. Oklahoma State and Texas Tech are both in the top 10 also, so not a huge drop off, but that’s two top 10 teams leaving.
Texas is one of the top programs in the nation in swimming and diving (notice a pattern here?). Oklahoma is strong in gymnastics.
Essentially, losing Texas and Oklahoma means the Big 12 is losing one or two of its strongest programs in just about every non-revenue sport. There are strong programs still left in some of those sports, but losing the competition of Oklahoma and Texas could hurt recruiting, particularly in baseball and softball, where the Big 12 has to compete with the SEC directly (and the SEC just got MUCH stronger).
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@FarmerJayhawk so KU, TT, Baylor, ISU, Houston, maybe OSU won’t interest tv markets on sats or big mondays?
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I hate this!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in Big 12 Expansion:
@FarmerJayhawk so KU, TT, Baylor, ISU, Houston, maybe OSU won’t interest tv markets on sats or big mondays?
KU definitely is a big draw, and will be as long as Self keeps us rolling. So we’ll still get more than our share of Monday primetime games. But we’ll also get stuck on Sunday afternoons on occasion just because that’s what the new Big 12 media deal will likely entail.
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@FarmerJayhawk I just can’t believe that, national champs? Wsu plays a lot on sundays.
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@FarmerJayhawk heard of anybody for the new big 12 commish? Any ideas?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in Big 12 Expansion:
@FarmerJayhawk I just can’t believe that, national champs? Wsu plays a lot on sundays.
Yeah, it’s going to suck. ESPN will replace a lot of American Conference games that were on Sundays with Big 12 games.
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@FarmerJayhawk they’re worse than us?
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@FarmerJayhawk some of conference USA is moving there. Lower than us.
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@Crimsonorblue22 College basketball doesn’t draw big numbers outside of the NCAA Tournament. Only 1 regular season game topped 3 million, and only 8 topped 2 million. Duke or Kentucky were involved in 6 of those 8 games. The two games that didn’t involve Duke or Kentucky were Ohio St./Purdue that was tge lead in to the AFC title game so a lot Bengals fans were likely watching that game as well and the other game was St. John’s/Georgetown that I believe was the lead in to the Rams/Buccaneers playoff game.
And those overall numbers are still down from pre-pandemic numbers. People’s viewing habits are changing amd I doubt very many leagues, if any, actually see their next media rights deals increase because of those changing habits.
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@Texas-Hawk-10
not even coming off a championship will help us or Baylor?
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We have to put our emotions on the side here and look at hard facts. All the numbers on viewership are out there for us to study. Basketball doesn’t draw near the crowds that football does, and it is also represented in real numbers in stadiums.
I do remember life before Texas in our conference. We survived. Has our sports lives been enhanced since Texas entered our conference? We’ve won two basketball titles. Do we thank Texas in any part of that? I know it is painful to even ask those questions. Do I personally give Texas credit? No. I give Self and Brown credit. But these are my thoughts and feelings, and as I said above… we need to tamper emotions on this to think rationally.
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
We have to put our emotions on the side here and look at hard facts. All the numbers on viewership are out there for us to study. Basketball doesn’t draw near the crowds that football does, and it is also represented in real numbers in stadiums.
I do remember life before Texas in our conference. We survived. Has our sports lives been enhanced since Texas entered our conference? We’ve won two basketball titles. Do we thank Texas in any part of that? I know it is painful to even ask those questions. Do I personally give Texas credit? No. I give Self and Brown credit. But these are my thoughts and feelings, and as I said above… we need to tamper emotions on this to think rationally.
I myself am in a mind of just let this play out. I think we might end up being better off in this then what some think. Answer to your question, did Texas help us in any way ? - -The answer for me is a big fat simple NO
i’ll actually be glad when they are gone - you want out ? - -get the F - - - out. You may end up finding out you not the studs you think you are. .I think ?Texas is in trouble in football in the SEC - -well actually they in trouble in both , they are liable to be middle of the pack , you not gonna be playin kick the can when you come up against the LSU’U - the Georgia’s & others. - In Basketball they gonna be in trouble against Kentucky Florida’s and others. - I think Oklahoma is a bigger loss then Texas, i would of much rather have them stay then Texas.
I’m ready for them to move on - -so the Big 12 can move on , I think we going to be ok. - -Plus ther are some people that think KU going to the Big 10 is a lock - - I don’t think thats a given , I’m just ready to get rid of their ass and move on
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Right on!
I’m glad to see Texas go. They came in and did a great job of wrecking our conference.
I also think… let’s play this out and see what happens.
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Without Texas and OU, the Big XII is kind of straddling the line between a power conference and a mid major, to be honest.
Who’s the Big XII’s best athletic department without UT and OU? Probably Baylor or Oklahoma State? KU is too weak in football to be the premier department in a conference. Iowa State and K-State are decent, but not a top flight department. Houston and Cincinnati are stepping up, but could be good for the conference. BYU will always be solid, but the question remains on whether they will be a good fit long term.
The conference slips a bit in football, quite a bit in softball/baseball/track. Basketball is probably the only sport where the Big XII doesn’t take a bit of a hit. The next commissioner is going to have to make sure no one takes a step back, or that could start a slide towards mid major territory.
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We slipped in football… at least for now. But maybe the future in football isn’t with Texas and OU… maybe it’s with Baylor, Houston, TT and others.
The Big 12 is going to have to step up big in football, or it could go like you said… slipping away.
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@drgnslayr The Big 12’s decline overall began with UT’s decline in football after the 2009 title game loss to Alabama. Regardless of anyone’s personal opinions of UT, they are the school that gave value to Big 12. They were the program that drew ratings to the league. They were the program that drew recruits to the league. How many other below .500 teams could KU have beaten on the road and garnered so much attention nationally? KU doesn’t get the attention they got last year for that win if was any other Big 12 team that entered that game at 4-5 like Texas did. How many teams with a losing record sell 95,000 tickets to a game against Kansas football?
Texas is a name brand and losing them is going to do irreparable damage to the Big 12 because there isn’t another Texas out there to bring into the Big 12. All the complaining about UT should be a bright, neon billboard to everyone about where UT’s place and importance to the Big 12 is.
Cincinnati may have had more on field success than Texas recently, but Cincinnati is not capable of filling a 100,000+ seat stadium like Texas does.
As much I’m looking forward to being able to see KU in person more frequently with Houston in the conference, KU officials need to be working behind the scenes to get KU into the Big 10 as soon as possible.
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I can easily agree with everything you said.
But I can also challenge where we were because of the dysfunction down in Austin. The Big 12 also paid a horrible price for bringing in Texas. That, to me, was the beginning to the end of our conference.
I can’t just blame Texas… but more of the overall deck-shuffling in college sports.
I remember when the Big 8 sat on top. When the entire nation awaited games like Nebraska/Oklahoma. The Orange Bowl often decided the national champion.
I can already hear the criticism of my post… that was THEN and this is NOW! And it is a valid criticism… however… I still question whether it is smart to jump conferences and become a school with ZERO identity.
Let’s look at other Big 12 school departures. How has it worked for Nebraska, Missouri, and Colorado?
Big huge “nothing burgers!”
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In the new landscape we’ll also be a nothingburgers. The difference will be a rich one or poor one. Only half the Big 8 will be left in the Big 12 3.0. I just can’t bring myself to care as much if we’re playing at Orlando instead of Austin or Norman or Boulder.
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Let’s face it… we remain a big nothing burger in football, and will probably always remain that. So we go from a conference where we might win some games or we go to a conference where we may never win another conference game.
From a basketball perspective, I think we lose by going to the Big 10. It’s a conference that plays a rough version of basketball. I’d hate to recruit when you have to tell players they’ll have to “pad up” before games. It’s an identity we simply don’t have and goodbye recruiting in the south.
I’m sure Nebraska would love us to join, so they get at least one team they can thrash every year in football!
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
Let’s face it… we remain a big nothing burger in football, and will probably always remain that. So we go from a conference where we might win some games or we go to a conference where we may never win another conference game.
From a basketball perspective, I think we lose by going to the Big 10. It’s a conference that plays a rough version of basketball. I’d hate to recruit when you have to tell players they’ll have to “pad up” before games. It’s an identity we simply don’t have and goodbye recruiting in the south.
I’m sure Nebraska would love us to join, so they get at least one team they can thrash every year in football!
I wouldn’t get myself all worked up just yet about us and the Big 10 Drgnslayr, I’m just not that sure that the Big 10 will give us that invite a even though with our Basketball that our other sports non revenue & revenue bring enough to the table to entice that invite. Basketball would be the bonus for us but like we have been made aware of Football is the sport that brings the money it IS THE SPORT & as we know thats not going to get us in. I just don’t think if we stay where we are at that we are going to be in such dier straights as some try to make it out to be. Play it out let’s see how things work before we worry about the doom and gloom of staying put. - I just don’t think that the Big 10 is going to be as a automatic invite as some seem to think that they would be chomping at the bit to get us to join
@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
Let’s face it… we remain a big nothing burger in football, and will probably always remain that. So we go from a conference where we might win some games or we go to a conference where we may never win another conference game.
From a basketball perspective, I think we lose by going to the Big 10. It’s a conference that plays a rough version of basketball. I’d hate to recruit when you have to tell players they’ll have to “pad up” before games. It’s an identity we simply don’t have and goodbye recruiting in the south.
I’m sure Nebraska would love us to join, so they get at least one team they can thrash every year in football!
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I heavily doubt if the Big 10 wants us… and why would they? It’s not good for any conference to add a horrible football team. What does any of their current teams gain by adding us to their schedule? And then we come in on basketball and completely stir the pot.
The Big 10 is a horrible idea for us and for them. Horrible. We are better off as an independent. Why are $s important when we will get murdered every year in football and experience a decline in our basketball program… all happening while trashing our identity.
We may face some struggle with the Big 12 coming up… let’s compare that to the struggle created in some of these super conferences, with so many teams divided and odd unfair schedules… and zero identity because it is all unnatural and without historic significance.
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
I heavily doubt if the Big 10 wants us… and why would they? It’s not good for any conference to add a horrible football team. What does any of their current teams gain by adding us to their schedule? And then we come in on basketball and completely stir the pot.
The Big 10 is a horrible idea for us and for them. Horrible. We are better off as an independent. Why are $s important when we will get murdered every year in football and experience a decline in our basketball program… all happening while trashing our identity.
We may face some struggle with the Big 12 coming up… let’s compare that to the struggle created in some of these super conferences, with so many teams divided and odd unfair schedules… and zero identity because it is all unnatural and without historic significance.
I agree bud. I just don’t think us going to the Big 10 is a given as like many think. - -Your right because at THIS MOMENT ur football brings nothing to the Big 10 , our other sports are just eh --not bad BUT not goo enough to help out a lot. Basketball is our Ace - -but just don’t think some people think that it’s a given were gonna get invited. - I’m just not that sure, and on top of that I’m not gonna lose sleep over it if we don’t.
I don’t think we are as bad off as some think. We have added quality teams to the league, Houston for sure more then will hold it’s own in Basketball - Cincinn isn’t no slouch. - BYU is capable I actually think we up graded in Basketball, & I don’t think it’s as bad as some of those people that are standing on the edge of the cliff thinking the world is coming to an end in football. - -Again Houston & Cin cinn both will be repectable sur on the football front they won’t be quite the caliber but in the other sports - - -let’s wait and see before we think that the Big 10 is just frothing at the mouth to get it in. - -That’s not happening people. WE might get in -we might not
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With NIL, $$$ are key to recruiting because NIL $$$ are going to mean everything. If we fall by the wayside conferencewise, we probably won’t be able to compete for recruits in basketball, and that will make it hard to make consistent runs in the NCAA. We have crossed the threshold in the NCAA in terms of $$$. Either have $$$ and have success, or not have $$$ and fail.
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@justanotherfan man, you are really a downer! Depressing!
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Where will our kids be making their NIL? Maybe I’m off here… but won’t it be for selling carpet in Kansas City? Or BBQ? Won’t that be more localized $$$? Like… would Och be making money on his image in Michigan? I am thinking the big $$$ made from moving to the Big10 won’t be going to the athletes.
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There are many discussions about NCAA ceding enforcement powers to the conferences. That is something to consider in deciding how KU best survives in sports. Seems lke we can have more influence in Big 12, where we have been connected historically with most other teams.
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How is Gonzaga pulling top 5 recruiting classes in a midmajor? Are shoecos still king? Can we survive in B12 just by remaining the adidas flagship?
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@drgnslayr The reason to try and move to the Big 10 is not solely athletic. Yes, the TV money will be better because because of schools like Ohio St. and Michigan that are on par with Texas in regards to followings and drawing viewers. The bigger boon is going to be on the academic side because once Texas and Oklahoma leave, KU would be the top research university in the conference and the only AAU member university which is unofficial criteria for Big 10 membership. Joining a conference where almost everyone else is also an AAU member would be a big boost to the university itself and not just athletics
In regards to athletics, think about how much people here complain that a low level game is on ESPN+, that doesn’t happen in the Big 10 because of the Big 10 Network that’s generally apart of most providers sports package.
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You’ll get to see every basketball game on the BIGNetwork if they go to the league. I’ve never forked over any extra ESPN+ money to watch the Badgers, and while the network doesn’t televise every league game on their main channel, they do feature the prominent teams.
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Very interesting post.
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Reality check : we’re contemplating joining a conference that hasn’t invited us, and recently made a public announcement they would not expand their conference. It would be nice if we were offered, but it’s not even on the table right now. I’m fine with the B12 for now. I like the fact that KU will play football and basketball in Houston, which will be a lot of fun to attend. I’m planning a sabbatical back to the Phog next year, which will be a blast, but it sure would be nice to see the guys locally.
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@wissox they don’t televise every game? Are their games on sun. too?
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@Crimsonorblue22 They have a sort of ESPN+ thing for the less popular games. I’ve never had to miss a Badger game because of the + thing. They want their popular teams on live TV. Their Sunday games have become later in the day with some Sunday evening games.
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@wissox at least we haven’t been on Sundays. It’s actually worse.
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Right. I don’t see the Big 10 wanting Kansas. Seems more logical they would want KSU before KU. I know that bruises a lot of egos… but football trumps basketball by a mile.
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
Right. I don’t see the Big 10 wanting Kansas. Seems more logical they would want KSU before KU. I know that bruises a lot of egos… but football trumps basketball by a mile.
Not remotely true.
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Quick and unverified googling:
The Wildcats brought in $67.6 million in total revenues and spent $78.4 million. Both numbers were down significantly compared to normal years. In 2020, K-State reported $86.4 million in revenue and $86.1 million in expenses. — feb 10 ‘22
Kansas’ NCAA financial statement for fiscal year 2021 showed an end total of minus-$1,815,108, when comparing $92,325,635 in operating revenue to $94,140,743 in operating expenses. Back in fiscal year 2020 the figure was plus-$14,564, when comparing $102,707,575 in revenue to $102,693,011 in expenses. — feb 10 ‘22
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Question: How many years would it take for Kansas football to lift its reputation as being competitive? 5 years of solid performance? 10 years?
KSU may be a good model to study. They stunk worse than us before turning their program around long ago. How are they valued today, both economically and competitively?
I know this conversation stinks… but realistically… who wants Kansas football today? Even a shelled-out Big 12 has us at the bottom.
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Old the athletic article…
Stewart Mandel wrote last week that two sports TV consultants estimated to The Athletic that about 50 percent of the value of the Big 12’s television contract derived solely from Texas and Oklahoma. The Big 12’s current deal paid each school around $25.2 million this last fiscal year, according to tax returns. Add in other league revenue — mainly from the bowls — and the schools received an average of $38.5 million. Last year, the Big Ten paid out about $42.4 million to each of its members. That number was down from about $53.8 million the previous year because of canceled football games. So, in theory, the Big Ten would have to be convinced that any school that comes into the league would be able to increase its TV revenue enough that no one’s bottom line suffers.
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Article referenced Gonzaga as a successful midmajor bball powerhouse, also Villanova, whose football is div ii
13 million drop in athletic revenue from tv contract would hurt. Hard to build up football while youre cutting budget.
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@drgnslayr If the Big 10 only cared about on field football results, they never would’ve added Maryland and Rutgers who have been somewhere between middle of the pack at their bests in the Big 10 to bottom feeders. There’s a lot more than football success that goes into the Big 10 discussions about adding new programs.
TV viewership numbers are down across the board because of how viewing habits have changed so I wouldn’t expect any conference to see an increase in their next major deals. The Big 10 is also a conference that tries to keep up with the SEC and with the SEC moving to 16 members, don’t be too surprised to see the Big 10 take a serious look at trying to add some combination of KU, Pittsburgh, Virginia, and UNC to keep up with the SEC.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Big 12 Expansion:
@drgnslayr If the Big 10 only cared about on field football results, they never would’ve added Maryland and Rutgers who have been somewhere between middle of the pack at their bests in the Big 10 to bottom feeders. There’s a lot more than football success that goes into the Big 10 discussions about adding new programs.
TV viewership numbers are down across the board because of how viewing habits have changed so I wouldn’t expect any conference to see an increase in their next major deals. The Big 10 is also a conference that tries to keep up with the SEC and with the SEC moving to 16 members, don’t be too surprised to see the Big 10 take a serious look at trying to add some combination of KU, Pittsburgh, Virginia, and UNC to keep up with the SEC.
How big are the tv markets for Maryland and Rutgers?
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@Jethro If you want to know the future of TV, look at MLS and their deal with AppleTV next year, look at the NFL and their deal with Amazon, look at UFC and their deal with ESPN+. The New York Yankees I believe have a streaming deal with someone beginning next season. That is the future of TV and live sports, not cable TV deals. Media market size is going to be less relevant than ever going forward and KU has always had good in-house production and can add value to a streaming deal because of how many hours of content they can provide to a streaming deal with another conference.
Streaming is the future of TV and KU adds value in that regard because JayhawkTV can provide many hours of content to a streaming service like Amazon or AppleTV who appear to be the platforms most interested in moving into the live sports realm.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 hard time imagining UVA leaving the ACC
Also can you guys imagine Duke and UNC getting split up. That i could get behind.
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@approxinfinity Duke is also an AAU school so there could be a deal there if the Big 10 really wanted to push that.
Realistically, what probably hurts KU the most is Iowa St. leaving the AAU this year.
