Bill Self "growth stunter"
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I’m referring to the several games where he had 6 or less points.
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what the hell was that - -no fricken call. Harris got hit in the back
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Good GOD are you serious ?
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@BShark box score watching checking points my point is he’s playing great D, all over the court and getting dunks and put backs. The O isn’t ran through him and he’s excelling playing aggressive while here he made 1 mistake and was yanked.
Only tcu last year he played well and go figure he had a huge leash with other guys out…played loose
It’s all on coach he berates then but doesn’t build them up. His shtick is getting old.
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@kuballin10 I appreciate your take and its part of a natural tension that keeps it real.
The other side being necessary as well. He’s one of the winningest coaches of the last decade. That’s a pretty good schtick.
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@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
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I seen this on ESPN traile, now it was eith the 3rd - or the 5th straight loss for KU against a top 25 ranked team longest in Self’s tenure - -not good
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When you literally tell teams you are throwing it inside to start the game the first 3-4 possessions and you dont have Doke…you deserve to lose.
Self said when they had Dok they’d walk into every gym knowing they could beat anyone. We don’t have him now but still trying to get easy buckets the problem with the self logic is the buckets due to the bucketgetter aren’t easy because the player isn’t that good (yes, I stole a word from this site bucketeers or bucketgetter)
Players see our style and see the favoritism for worse players but they are older or “run the system”. Self is at fault because he is arrogant enough to think his system is what wins when in realty it has been and always will be the players.
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@kuballin10 maybe if you’re lucky he’ll be banned.
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Nothing like having a hall of fame coach but knowing some new blood with a new system would help jolt us back to life.
Unc, uk and potentially duke may be down these next 4-5 years. We need to rack up another title at least. If self goes another 3-4 years without one and if we do get to the final four we get blown out throwing it inside while the other team lights us up from deep and plays aggressive penetrating and kicking out for “inside out offense” then yeah self reflection would be nice.
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@kuballin10 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
I am not totally discounting what you say. I thought that Tristan should have had more playing time, ditto now Adams and Clemence. But am not on board with Self being replaced. Am on board with him being not so loyal to certain players while they are not producing, and making lineup changes when and if necessary.
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@Marco said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@kuballin10 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
I am not totally discounting what you say. I thought that Tristan should have had more playing time, ditto now Adams and Clemence. But am not on board with Self being replaced. Am on board with him being not so loyal to certain players while they are not producing, and making lineup changes when and if necessary.
can’t agree with Adams & Clemence - -Adams is way to offensive challenged at this point to play extended minutes in Big 1 play & Clemence get tossed aside like a rag doll at this point and also is ANOTHER defensive liability , just not ready
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I think your concept of the only thing that matters in this game is a NC is shortsighted and a negative view of the game. That is a great angle to take when you are a cynic and just want to propel your concepts ahead of a HOFr coach. Only one team wins it all every year and your approach basically says everyone else in college basketball sucks. It shows a complete inability to appreciate the game beyond this one single focus. You must have hated all KU basketball since 2008.
Your approach in here is nearing troll status.
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@drgnslayr Thanks for the response.
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not trolling honest convo about the state of the program in regards to the ultimate goal each year as coaches/players everyone would say
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What do you think of Boeheim? Self is version 2.0 great win percentage but only 1 title to his name. People talk about how difficult it is yet other coaches have 2 that people would say no way are better than Self and point at win percentage.
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You’re right besides 2008 it’s been fun but never reaching the top sucks. That’s the ultimate goal Self would say and everyone else. I weight that more. Going 30-6 and beating up and 20 bad teams doesn’t impress me. Beating up on a bad big 12 bedsides 2-3 teams doesn’t impress me. Self hasn’t played his best players every year which is frustrating.
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How many big 12 titles would you trade for 1-2 more ncaa titles? I’d trade 10 away. The streak is nice but if we were in the acc we wouldn’t have had it. It’s like Gonzaga is doing currently and not getting much respect. All of the sudden other big 12 teams do better in the ncaa and we might go a year or there now without winning the big 12 which doesn’t bother me if we excel in March.
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Self isn’t adapting to the modern game and his defensive philosophy is brutal. The system he prioritizes over players versus the other way around. He for years plays lesser talented guys who know the system thus limiting the teams ceiling but also limiting the teams floor. We win a lot but not the big 12 and definitely not a title because of it.
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This system is also effecting recruiting. Ask other guys in here or on TOS it’s well known in AAU circles how Self is. If I am Scott Drew I’m taking Akinjo at AU and showing how he’s allowed freedom at Baylor versus All American Remy and how he performed here. Self didn’t adapt his system to Remy and that was obvious as the first game Remy didn’t attempt the shot in a half. Same for additional games he isn’t looking to score and even get downhill it’s “run the offense don’t take a stupid shot Remy.”
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This is not trolling but other coaches with better philosophies are getting big boy jobs. These coaches will win some Titles sooner as the game is changing. As Saban has learned he used to win 17-14 but now it’s 44-41. Have to adapt. With the best athletes we want MORE possessions not less. Win 81-78 not 52-49 (see Virginia if you want proof of that. They have 1 lucky title as many could say about us and then have some awful losses - worst in tourney and multiple awful ones every year due to their style ). Utilize your athletes and adjust the system not the other way around.
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Stealing from poster on TOS regarding Self’s philosophy on O that’s poor and how awful we are on D with outdated philosophies. Self prioritized post feeders like Brady and praised him as the best player in the game often (similar to traylor or harris). Self builds up lower guys instead of building up our best players. It’s like Draymond Green having 8 boards 6 assists and Kerr saying he was the best player in the game. Unless he has a triple dub that is never said. He says Steph went off and did Steph things to carry us.
Instead of saying Harris was awesome with his 6 points, 2 steals and 3 assists ignoring his flops maybe encourage your horses (Och and Braun) and have a proper view of why you are winning and push to excel those players further that’s who will carry you.
“ NBA teams run way more pnr and pnp than post ups. We run way more post ups. So we either run outdated offense through our bigs or we don’t have talented enough bigs to run more modern offense with our bigs. It’s probably a little bit of both, but either way, it’s an issue on offense. Self wants to run post up offense through his bigs, even though they’re not even that great at it, and then compounds the issue by insisting on playing Harris all the time because he’s the best post feeder, despite the fact that he lacks offensive skill outside of that. It’s actually incredible we’ve been as good offensively as we have, but as I forecasted, it’s not sustainable because Agbaji and Braun couldn’t maintain their level of play. This isn’t even the fundamental problem with our team, it’s just the one thing that everyone chose to take out of my post. The post offense is irrelevant because our defense is so bad. I also commented on that original post that Baylor is a much better defensive team than us. That’s the major issue and what will hold us back.”
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There is no logical merit in talking about trading conference titles for NCAA titles. Not only can we not do it, but I don’t think there is a logical strategy where we intentionally not care about how we play in conference and have that help us win NCAA titles.
I’ve aired my criticism on Self and staff for years. Sometimes that has involved strategy questions… like questioning hi/lo at any cost.
My biggest criticism remains… Self’s ability to fire up his troops. He is such a mellow man (except sometimes yelling in the huddle). For example… in that TT game, where was the urgency? I only saw it for a minute after Brawn stole the ball at the end and slammed it. He briefly turned up his game. I see a big difference in our teams over teams like Jay Wright’s. Everything we do works so much better when guys play with urgency. I have always challenged this and probably always will.
We have a great group of guys, and I think our coaches want to win. But I don’t think they know how to turn up our guys. We currently aren’t playing at a level of urgency where we can defend and interupt another team’s offense. This was on clear display in the TT game… how TT disrupted our offense but we didn’t disrupt theres. Our talent level is higher so we made the game closer.
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@drgnslayr I can agree with the turning up the players part for sure. Jaybate used to write about amp games vs non-amp games. Which I never really bought fully but maybe partially.
The part I do buy about that theory is that self saves a little something for the games he thinks will be the toughest. Wrinkles as jay are used to say. Different sets, strategies and mindsets for the top opponents. We didn’t see much of that vs Tech maybe because he’s saving stuff for Baylor and UT.
I think self relies on players to bring effort and pump each other up. He often relies on an emotional leader on the floor. I think about graham, and doke in recent years.
I feel like Remy is that guy this year but he’s currently injured. I had hopes that Braun could step up and do it but he hasn’t consistently. We’ve known Och is to cool calm and collected, Dave is too wild, Mitch is too old (jk), and Harris just isn’t it.
Remy looked hobbled vs tech but you could see when he was in, even the way he passed the ball added zip and flash and emotion into the game. Unfortunately without him on the floor right now the guys seem to be lacking that urgency that they will need to take this team to its peak. If they find it, I still believe they can be good enough to win the big 12 AND the national title. And I definitely agree there’s no reason not to try to win both.
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I know you have been around long enough to remember my constant rants about lacking a chip!
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@benshawks08 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
I feel like Remy is that guy this year but he’s currently injured. I had hopes that Braun could step up and do it but he hasn’t consistently. We’ve known Och is to cool calm and collected, Dave is too wild, Mitch is too old (jk), and Harris just isn’t it.
I think Pettiford is that guy. Can’t wait to see him run this show.
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Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
Really hoping this doesn’t derail him. Hoping against hope he can end up the starter next year.
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@BShark Me too. Pettiford is key next season, Harris would be good coming in off the bench - a two-headed point, if you will. Yesufu will be important as well, as either a two starting or first off the bench. We’ll be young, but with alot of depth and athleticism inside and out.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
Agreed. I know @BShark was high on this guy from the start and in the limited time I’ve watched him, I think he has “it”. Every move seems to have a purpose and he seems to ooze confidence. It just feels like something good is going to happen whenever he touches the ball. Looking forward to getting him back and giving us that spark we’ve been missing.
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@BShark said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
Really hoping this doesn’t derail him. Hoping against hope he can end up the starter next year.
Even if Self loved him more then his own son at this point Bobby will have a limited role whenever he comes back unless injury changes that. Self has clearly shown he doesn’t trust anyone that hasn’t played here 5 years already or isn’t 25
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Bobby has minutes awaiting him if he gets healthy. If.
Self has already indicated he will be one of our next great guards. So it would be a huge mistake to bench him throughout this year and basically waste a year for him to season with experience. Bobby has monster upside!
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I think they need Bobby back in a bad way because Self trusts Bobby. And that gives them the depth to press more and shorten the shot clock. Which is desperately needed with our poor interior defense.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
I think they need Bobby back in a bad way because Self trusts Bobby. And that gives them the depth to press more and shorten the shot clock. Which is desperately needed with our poor interior defense.
we have an interior defense ? lol
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Self literally said per Sam Lance - I wish I played kj and Zach more early on.
He was the only guy on the planet not seeing that one straight.
Zach looks good against Msu our toughest comp all year under the bright lights of MSG and proceeds to never play real meaningful minutes when we got back to Lawrence.
He does this every year I get being “stubborn” but now I’m starting to think he’s losing it.
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@kuballin10 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Self literally said per Sam Lance - I wish I played kj and Zach more early on.
He was the only guy on the planet not seeing that one straight.
Zach looks good against Msu our toughest comp all year under the bright lights of MSG and proceeds to never play real meaningful minutes when we got back to Lawrence.
He does this every year I get being “stubborn” but now I’m starting to think he’s losing it.
If by losing it you mean got Remy to entirely buy in you nailed it
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@FarmerJayhawk if by buying in you mean becoming a minimal offensive threat who just passes it around the perimeter and hardly looks to penetrate because he’s gotta run the offense or he’s yanked…and playing less minutes when fully healthy than Harris…
Yeah I stand by my claims he’s not adjusting/losing it and his ignorance that he had to “change” remy was an unfathomably bad decision
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@kuballin10 Remy had to change. The point is to win games right? Did Remy win anything of significance at ASU the way he was playing? I guess we could shoot for an 11 seed and first round exit if we just let Remy fire at will and not guard anyone.
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Remy had to change what exactly? He realizes he isn’t the number 1 scoring option because of Ochai but they can absolutely be a two or three headed monster with Braun. The problem is that was never presented or encouraged by Self with everything said in the media.
Remy’s a great kid and it was assumed he would come in and shoot 20 times a game and be this ball hog…why? You don’t think Remy’s never played on a team where he isn’t the best player or that he can’t recognize he doesn’t have to get 25 every night to have a chance but he can get 15 with 6-7 assists?
That’s where the staff flat out sucked. They made assumptions and any bad shot he took in practice they tried to act like they had to break him of this awful habit which was aggression and being an alpha.
Sure would be nice to have an alpha guard for the season and a tourney but unfortunately Self massively screwed his mind games with the key player up and reaps what he sows.
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I think CB and Remy have both been a bit unselfish. But better than being a ball stop.
Remy has quite honestly banged up for most of the season. Been nursing both a back and knee injury for like 8 of the 14 games I think. I’d like to revisit this in 2-3 weeks once Remy’s knee starts feeling better.
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@kuballin10 effort on defense and shot selection. Expected by who? That paragraph is a mess. I sure didn’t expect him to come fire 20+ shots a game. Remy himself said he had to come become a real PG for his pro prospects. If he wasn’t going to change at all he might as well had stayed in the draft and started his career in Moldova or someplace.
And as @Kcmatt7 wisely pointed out, he’s been hurt almost all year and that’s really affected him. Broadly speaking, we’re going to be fine, there’s always a KU fanbase meltdown around this time of year then we go on a stretch of winning 12 of 13 and everything is fine. Unless you’re one of those fans who likes losing 91-90 more than winning 60-59 (they do exist, including a fairly prominent Twitter account).
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This. Remy is not healthy right now. Anyone can see that while watching him play and the minutes or lack of minutes he is logging. Of course everyone would like to see Remy be more assertive, but until he is healthy we are not going to see that.
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Does anyone remember when the producers of Monday Night Football brought in comedian Dennis Miller to be a color guy? They thought his quick wit and somewhat irreverent approach would be great entertainment for viewers. Not long after, he was told to tone it down and not speak so much, pretty much negating the entire point of bringing him into the booth in the first place.
This is kind of how I feel about the Remy situation with Self. Why bring in this charismatic, free-wheeling shooter then force him to play within a system that pretty much neuters his strengths? I get that Self is a defense-first guy, but you have to let guys be who they are to some degree.
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I’ll address my poor sentence structure in another message but did Och coming down and going 1 on 5 count as a good shot?
If remy did that he’d be yanked. Self plays favorites and it’s killed this teams title chances for years.
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@kuballin10 you’re acting like Remy is playing 5 mpg.
He’s getting 25 minutes and will get 30 mpg + once he’s back healthy
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@Kcmatt7 25 mpg…you know there’s 40 minutes played right? You remember how remy was supposed to come here and be the alpha? That attacking mentality.
Check what senior Frank and senior Graham’s mpg were and get back to me.
Before remy was hurt he still wasn’t planning even close to the 35 mpg he should have been.
When Harris is getting more minutes than the stud transfer and all American then something is drastically wrong with the guy calling the shots.
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@kuballin10 but seniors Frank and Devonte in consecutive years both played on teams that seriously lacked depth. Even when a hundred percent healthy Remy probably won’t go over 30 mpg, and why would he?
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Our two best players are taking the majority of the shots. Talk about stunted growth!
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boom shackalacka off the top rope
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During his stints against the cyclones KJ impressed me with his heads up attitude and understanding of Self’s game. He was alert and moved quickly around the paint. PT for him will make us better. I’m not down on Mitch as much over the last few games. If Dave loses his hesitation on both ends and if he could make a freaking few more bunnies that would help. Shooting air balls from two feet out explains the 47% FG rate. OMFG! and my better half says honey the grandkids are going hear you. They live in CO so she may have a point. Wilson is going to be better and better so I’m going to get off of his ass to lighten the load.
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Boom Shacka lacka lacka from “I wanna take you higher” by Sly and the family Stone makes for a clever and positive post.
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I’m a fan of Remy. A big part is his cheerleading ability out on the floor. We need energy and emotion. Anything to help our guys play with enthusiasm.
But I’m not sure how he fits. Essentially, he is a freshman in Lawrence. He’s stepping on a team where guys have been here for a while. I don’t think his game has meshed with the rest of the team yet. Players have to figure out other players. The transition hasn’t been smooth… plus his health is in question.
Right now our team is a hodge podge. Who is our PG and can he run the team? We need our offense to flow. I’m not seeing that happen with our starting 5, let alone, when we start substituting. Obviously… seeing Self jiggle the lineup so much indicates he’s searching for flow. It isn’t just about a player coming in and getting some points.
Where we are is frustrating. We have enough talent on this team to become a solid contender… but we play like a November team. We better keep our fingers crossed in hopes we don’t hit some bad luck, like injuries come on. Our current margin for victory is razor-thin. We are capable of losing to every team in our league. Hate to say this… but with a little bad luck we could face the worst results since Self arrived here.
We had some crude play in recent years and Self turned to defense to save us. We appropriately named it “bad ball” because of the ugliness of games. I don’t see this team being capable of defending enough for us to sweat through league games and come out on top.
Unless we show an evolutionary breakthrough soon… I remain pessimistic about our chances this year.
I really like this team! Maybe someone needs to spike the water jug with testosterone (joke). Anything to bring out some alpha in all our guys.
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I think Remy fits well with this bunch but your right he’s essentially a freshman here. Remember he wasn’t here for offseason and even when he got here to start the fall semester he was hurt. It always makes some difference when you don’t have chemistry developed with teammates and coaches. We’ve certainly seen that even Remy and Self have that give and take relationship going. Self pushing Remy to be a bit of a different guard out there then he was at ASU. Perhaps that would have been all ironed out before if they spent a full summer together etc but its spilled over into real games.
We’ve seen what this team is when Remy isn’t on the floor and its not pretty. Having that secondary playmaker on the floor makes or breaks the offense really because Och & Braun are not creating plays on their own. It puts Harris in a tough spot to be the guy creating for everyone else which isn’t his strength.
What I saw in the Iowa St game was Harris & Pettiford afraid to take perimeter shots when they had opportunity especially when defenses were sagging off. If that was Remy getting those looks he’s taking the shot. Remy really helps spread the floor and defenses respect him so he doesn’t get a ton of open looks running our normal stuff. If the last couple games are an indication of anything I’d say Remy is the most important player in the lineup to creating the kind of flow we want in the offense
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@BShark that seems like an ignorant comment especially at this time.
How’s the team look? Are the majority of our players playing their best ball? Are they maximizing their potential? We need all 5 guys a threat to score and a three headed monster to win the big 12.
How’s Dave look? Does he look like end of year Dave who carried us the second half against the groves bro’s?
Ochai should shoot the most Braun and Remy 2a and 2b (Braun disappears against better athletes and he’s too hot and cold).
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@Marco that’s just wrong and ridiculous.
Frank played 33, 33 and 36 his last three years here.
Dtae’ played 32, 35 and 37
Get out of here with our best lead guard shouldn’t play 30 mpg this is asinine
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@drgnslayr said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
I’m a fan of Remy. A big part is his cheerleading ability out on the floor. We need energy and emotion. Anything to help our guys play with enthusiasm.
But I’m not sure how he fits. Essentially, he is a freshman in Lawrence. He’s stepping on a team where guys have been here for a while. I don’t think his game has meshed with the rest of the team yet. Players have to figure out other players. The transition hasn’t been smooth… plus his health is in question.
Right now our team is a hodge podge. Who is our PG and can he run the team? We need our offense to flow. I’m not seeing that happen with our starting 5, let alone, when we start substituting. Obviously… seeing Self jiggle the lineup so much indicates he’s searching for flow. It isn’t just about a player coming in and getting some points.
Where we are is frustrating. We have enough talent on this team to become a solid contender… but we play like a November team. We better keep our fingers crossed in hopes we don’t hit some bad luck, like injuries come on. Our current margin for victory is razor-thin. We are capable of losing to every team in our league. Hate to say this… but with a little bad luck we could face the worst results since Self arrived here.
We had some crude play in recent years and Self turned to defense to save us. We appropriately named it “bad ball” because of the ugliness of games. I don’t see this team being capable of defending enough for us to sweat through league games and come out on top.
Unless we show an evolutionary breakthrough soon… I remain pessimistic about our chances this year.
I really like this team! Maybe someone needs to spike the water jug with testosterone (joke). Anything to bring out some alpha in all our guys.
Agree that Remy is the emotional leader on the floor which is a little sad considering al the experience returning to this team. I do think Och is trying to develop that aspect of his game but might go against his natural tendencies. The brightest spot in that development WAS the end of that ISU game. After that last ISU bucket, he ran to the ball and DEMANDED it. Not something we’ve seen a lot of from Och. Yes, in the end he did give it up to Harris of all people to make the final play, but Och initiated which I think is key. I’m sure everyone thought Ochai would take the last shot which is why Harris was able to get to the rim (well, close to it at least). We also saw him trying to will himself and the team to victory. I think back to the deep three off the pass at the top of the key from Braun, and the pull up jumper at the elbow after a spin move to get open. He’s trying to learn when to take what the d gives and when to take over and initiate. It’s not an easy balance to find.
I’ve been in the camp for a while that believes this team’s fate is unfortunately tied to the ability of Dave to produce. If Och can find that next level where he can truly impose his will on a game, that might not be true. I’d love for that development to be on d as well but one step at a time.
Bill thinks Och is the one. His comments after that game make that clear. Leading a team is a big job and Och is learning it’s about more than making 47% of your 3 pointers. He’d be my pick too. He isn’t a GREAT leader yet but there’s still time and I’m taking that ISU game as evidence that he is making progress.
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@kuballin10 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@Marco that’s just wrong and ridiculous.
Frank played 33, 33 and 36 his last three years here.
Dtae’ played 32, 35 and 37
Get out of here with our best lead guard shouldn’t play 30 mpg this is asinine
The reason that they played so many minutes as seniors - Frank 36 Devonte 37 - is because we had no depth. Remy is not going to play 37 mpg, period. If you believe such a reality to be asinine, that would be your problem not mine. Btw I said that Remy would probably not play over 30 mpg, didn’t say that he shouldn’t play 30. Why would you play him for much more than that? What, no one else gets playing time?
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If Remy were deserving of 35+ minutes a game, he’d be playing that much. He is not close to Frank, Graham etc
