Dayton Game Thread
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@BShark we shouldn’t be forcing it inside period, let alone start Dave. He is not a match with the players and skillsets that we have.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t think anyone was hoping Remy would play 25 min or that he and ochai would come out at the same time
@approxinfinity thank you. @Texas-Hawk-10 question. Do you think that Dave meshes well with the players and skillsets that we have on this team? Hell, unless it be a plodding, undeep and unathletic one would he mesh well with any team? The team that we have this year is not the same as last.
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@tis4tim said in Dayton Game Thread:
@KirkIsMyHinrich said in Dayton Game Thread:
As frustrated as everyone is right now, remember that these guys are college kids and no one is perfect.
I hear what you’re saying, but we didn’t have to be perfect. 9-21 from FT and 4-19 from 3-point line is not going to win you many games.
You’re right. All that we needed was to play those who deserved to play period, and we would have won.
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well crap. that sucks. that game was looking like it had potential for a large marge win early on. Agreed with some that Bill hasn’t worked out his rotations/lineups yet. or maybe i’m agreeing with myself. i saw a few suspect (to me) lineups on the floor. Hate it when he has like 1 or 0 shooters on the floor, which he did today (JCL was the only dude on the floor who could shoot at one point). I don’t recall if we were losing momentum though, so can say that was the issue. Crap!
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Harris’ contribution today = 0 Dude needs way less PT. Insert somebody who at least is a threat offensively and can come close defensively.
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@rockchalkjayhawk like @BShark said, two of three players need to be on the floor for us at all times. I want Braun to play 40 mpg! Lol
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@Marco said in Dayton Game Thread:
@rockchalkjayhawk like @BShark said, two of three players need to be on the floor for us at all times. I want Braun to play 40 mpg! Lol
Didn’t see that BShark mention @Marco well, i couldn’t agree more! depending on who the three guys are…
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@BeddieKU23 said in Dayton Game Thread:
It will. That was a designed play to get Dave a look at the hoop, everyone knows he doesn’t pass. That’s after the game he’s had while Och Remy and CB had provided all the offense. It’s bad coaching on that play. Regardless of the bad call it was designed to get him the ball because at no point in the game had we pinned Dave in the lane to go get a bucket
If KU actually shown any effort the second half, it doesn’t come down to the final possession. That’s why this game is on the players and not Self. Bill Self was not the one on the floor saying fuck it for 15 minutes and not giving any effort.
This post is a good one! Add the horrific free throw shooting and you get the result of today’s game. Too bad a loss is a learning experience.
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@Marco said in Dayton Game Thread:
@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t think anyone was hoping Remy would play 25 min or that he and ochai would come out at the same time
@approxinfinity thank you. @Texas-Hawk-10 question. Do you think that Dave meshes well with the players and skillsets that we have on this team? Hell, unless it be a plodding, undeep and unathletic one would he mesh well with any team? The team that we have this year is not the same as last.
Is Dave perfect for the current system, no, but Self also doesn’t have a better option at the 5 at this point. Mitch is even more limited than Dave in his skill set, KJ Adams is Jamari Traylor at this point. Jalen Wilson is a crap shoot about what he’ll provide, today was jack shit on both ends. Zach Clemence is the best chance at some point, but not yet. When he’s gotten extended looks, it’s clear why Clemence doesn’t play more yet because he gets lost on both ends of the floor. He can’t operate in the paint yet and can’t guard anyone yet. Clemence’s best comparison is a more athletic Perry Ellis and Ellis was never a good defender.
Dave is the current best fit at the 5 for KU and he is good a setting screens and operating in a pick and roll or screen and roll situation.
And this team isn’t as different from last season as you think. Remy and Coleman-Lands are the only two high minutes players that are different from last year. If Wilson does replace Harris in the starting line up, it’ll be the 4/5 starters from last year with Harris still being one of the first off the bench like last season, Mitch still being the main big off the bench, and Coleman-Lands basically replacing Bryce Thompson in the rotation.
The guys you wanted to see in the second half was mostly the same group that began giving up the lead in the 1st half so I’m not sure why you think they would’ve done any differently in the second half.
As to @approxinfinity about Remy and Ochai not playing as much as possible, Remy was taking a lot of really bad shots early in the shot clock instead of running offense so that’s why he got yanked a bit in the second half. Same with Ochai, who was playing pretty poorly during that stretch in the 2nd half as well missing a bunch FT’s and 3’s so he wasn’t helping much either.
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Can’t believe we couldn’t find a 6’10+ guy that could rebound, contest shots, and wanted to come to Kansas this year.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Can’t believe we couldn’t find a 6’10+ guy that could rebound, contest shots, and wanted to come to Kansas this year.
Did anybody, including Self, think Dave was going to regress as much as he has from the end of last season? If Dave was doing what he did once conference play started last year, we’d all be bitching about him coming off the floor.
KU actually did get a 6-9 guy who can do all of those things you said to come to Kansas, but it was a guy with no athleticism whatsoever.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 which one, Curry?
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 which one, Curry?
Cam Martin, Sydney Curry was basically what KJ Adams is, except with two less years of eligibility.
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I mean it’s not about whether we expect him to regress, it’s whether we have a backup plan. We clearly are not deep enough in the paint for a coach that always says he plays inside out.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Can’t believe we couldn’t find a 6’10+ guy that could rebound, contest shots, and wanted to come to Kansas this year.
Imagine Cofi Cockburn in a KU uniform.
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It’s yet to be seen whether Cam Martin is able to rebound at a D-1 level against athletic players. Add athleticism to my list of desired attributes. That’s still not a polished skill. Surely there’s some raw talent giant that wants to come to Kansas every year
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And I mean maybe this never happens again. Next year we have bigs coming. But it seems like we Want to get a guard a wing and a big in basically each class ideally
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
It’s yet to be seen whether Cam Martin is able to rebound at a D-1 level against athletic players. Add athleticism to my list of desired attributes. That’s still not a polished skill. Surely there’s some raw talent giant that wants to come to Kansas every year
That happened last year with Gethro Muscadin. Raw talent doesn’t work in Self’s system though because Self doesn’t run a basic system, he runs a fairly complex system that takes time to learn which is why we still see Harris running point over Remy most of the time right now.
You’re not going to find the type of big you want on the transfer market very often because a big with the skill set you want typically ends up in the NBA pretty quickly. Those that are available usually have a major flaw in their game that keeps them from the NBA. Kofi Cockburn for example since he was name dropped is similar to Doke in that he’s basically useless more than 7-8 from the basket.
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As far as raw talent, that’s KJ Adams this season. He’s high energy, but low skilled which means he doesn’t bring much to the table against quality teams.
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@Kcmatt7 I was mainly referring to the folk who give up on our team in a game in which we were one relatively lucky bounce away from winning the game.
Sure it was disappointing, but not the end of the world!
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@Texas-Hawk-10 good comp of muscadin. Dave and Jalen played 48 minutes today, Zach and KJ played 4. If that shifts 10 minutes I think this is a win. Think KJ might be able to get a few of those boards/bunnies that Dave did not, and played only 1 minute.
Regardless of complexity, when protecting a lead we can’t lack basic proficiency.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 good comp of muscadin. Dave and Jalen played 48 minutes today, Zach and KJ played 4. If that shifts 10 minutes I think this is a win. Think KJ might be able to get a few of those boards/bunnies that Dave did not, and played only 1 minute.
Regardless of complexity, when protecting a lead we can’t lack basic proficiency.
I don’t think KJ changes the outcome of the game because he’s not someone you really have to guard on offense at this point. Zach Clemence may have been the better option because of his shooting to me, but he was also part of the group that started giving up the lead in the first half.
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Maybe an early loss for a wake up call for everyone to work harder?
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@StLJhawk said in Dayton Game Thread:
Maybe an early loss for a wake up call for everyone to work harder?
Work harder or just execute better? No way to sugar coat this - this was a bad loss. Dayton had a losing record coming in. Has a dozen freshmen. They turned the ball over 20 times. This should have been a blowout. At this point, Baylor rules the roost in the B12 (just beat down MSU), and KU needs to prove otherwise. And, unless the Hawks do dominate the conference, a high seed isn’t in the offing - the non-conference schedule is the weakest in memory. Other than UK?, really no other opportunities for quality wins.
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Jesse Newell has a piece about why the last play went the way it did. He argues it ended up with Dave in a bad spot because of Remy. Which seems accurate but the call was still to go to Dave which to me is a dang coaching mistake.
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Sure let’s blame one play. SMH.
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@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
Jesse Newell has a piece about why the last play went the way it did. He argues it ended up with Dave in a bad spot because of Remy. Which seems accurate but the call was still to go to Dave which to me is a dang coaching mistake.
What are the other options on that play realistically? Ochai, who was 3 of 7 from the FT line today and wouldn’t have been allowed anywhere near the basket without getting hammered? Remy, who had reverted to his ASU form of taking too many bad shots? Dejuan Harris? Dayton didn’t even bother guarding him on that sequence. It’s telling that Braun had the ball in that situation and not either of the PG’s. The play probably should’ve been an iso for Braun or McCormack setting a screen for Braun to clear out the paint for a drive.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Och is the option. If he’s gonna be the man he’s gotta be the man. He’s my pick.
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Ochai, CB and Remy all produced on offense today. Dave didn’t.
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@approxinfinity To be clear I agree the game should have never been that close. And the first fifteen minutes of the first half (and really the last 5-10 of the first) are much more significant. But many games are going to come down to crunch time and if Dave is the go to guy at the end of the game I’m just not sure what we are even doing.
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@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@approxinfinity To be clear I agree the game should have never been that close. And the first fifteen minutes of the first half (and really the last 5-10 of the first) are much more significant. But many games are going to come down to crunch time and if Dave is the go to guy at the end of the game I’m just not sure what we are even doing.
There is no excuse for Remy to not touch the ball the last possession, nor him playing only 25 minutes today. He was the best player on the court today and we were +15 with him on the floor.
He is on this team because he can score the ball. Complete failure today, almost surely based on ego.
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@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Och is the option. If he’s gonna be the man he’s gotta be the man. He’s my pick.
Not today he shouldn’t have been. Braun should’ve been the choice today.
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Dave showed he can make big shots down the stretch in close games last year. He just started out sucking this year and he needs to get his head right. If he can’t do that without the ball always going through him then I don’t want to ride the struggle bus to get there, nor do the other 9 rotation guys.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Och is the option. If he’s gonna be the man he’s gotta be the man. He’s my pick.
Not today he shouldn’t have been. Braun should’ve been the choice today.
Fully disagree. Och is getting the press for a player of the year type season. He’s the senior. He came back to be the go to guy. He’s scoring 20+ a game. He’s the most athletic and best shooter we’ve got. He’s shown more creating his own shot this season. He can catch and shoot coming off a screen. Pump fake and drive it, pull up for a mid-range shot.
Braun had a great game. But his points were mostly effort points and being in the right place at the right time in the flow of the offense. He wasn’t creating for himself or others. He wasn’t hot from deep. He doesn’t really have scoring threats outside of open threes and layups/dunks. I don’t know that we’ve EVER seen him in an ISO situation to know what he would even do there.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Dave showed he can make big shots down the stretch in close games last year. He just started out sucking this year and he needs to get his head right. If he can’t do that without the ball always going through him then I don’t want to ride the struggle bus to get there, nor do the other 9 rotation guys.
Dave should NEVER be the guy we play through with a minute left. You have two players in Ochai and Remi too good to play through Dave.
Jesse Newell can talk about Remy hero ball, but literally all Frank did down the stretch was hero ball. Same with Graham. It’s what you do with PGs who can score the ball the way Remy does.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Dave showed he can make big shots down the stretch in close games last year. He just started out sucking this year and he needs to get his head right. If he can’t do that without the ball always going through him then I don’t want to ride the struggle bus to get there, nor do the other 9 rotation guys.
We got the ball to Dave in the exact situation Self wanted several times this game and he blew it every time. Just can’t imagine being in that situation with a must score possession and having watched the last few games and saying yep, let’s dump one into Dave. He will get the angle and score it!
Like where does that idea come from?
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Speaking of DG playing hero ball… https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1464450342116990978?s=20
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@benshawks08 someone willing to risk a non con loss just to get Dave going. Smiles and hugs for AG. Maybe he thinks we have no chance cutting down nets without Dave being decent. That is probably correct.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Dave showed he can make big shots down the stretch in close games last year. He just started out sucking this year and he needs to get his head right. If he can’t do that without the ball always going through him then I don’t want to ride the struggle bus to get there, nor do the other 9 rotation guys.
Dave should NEVER be the guy we play through with a minute left. You have two players in Ochai and Remi too good to play through Dave.
Jesse Newell can talk about Remy hero ball, but literally all Frank did down the stretch was hero ball. Same with Graham. It’s what you do with PGs who can score the ball the way Remy does.
I do think Jesse hinted at the real issue which is Bill doesn’t trust Remy. Their relationship HAS to evolve (from both of them) for this season to go the way we all want it to.
Remy still gets pulled for defensive mistakes and Jalen no D Wilson comes in for him on the last defensive possession. When Remy gets pulled you can see it kills him. He does not hide his disgust. He plays hard and wants to win but his game and selfs game are not the same. Hopefully this game does something to bring them together. They both gotta give.
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If Bill fs this one up with Remy it’s not going to bode well for future High profile transfers
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@approxinfinity Do you think Dave getting going or Remy and Self figuring their crap out is more important to late season success?
To me it’s Remy/Self. This team has shown flashes of greatness already and those flashes have all involved Remy.
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@benshawks08
agreePlus Dave struggling this year with all the opportunity he has had will have little negative impact on recruiting
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@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Och is the option. If he’s gonna be the man he’s gotta be the man. He’s my pick.
Not today he shouldn’t have been. Braun should’ve been the choice today.
Fully disagree. Och is getting the press for a player of the year type season. He’s the senior. He came back to be the go to guy. He’s scoring 20+ a game. He’s the most athletic and best shooter we’ve got. He’s shown more creating his own shot this season. He can catch and shoot coming off a screen. Pump fake and drive it, pull up for a mid-range shot.
Braun had a great game. But his points were mostly effort points and being in the right place at the right time in the flow of the offense. He wasn’t creating for himself or others. He wasn’t hot from deep. He doesn’t really have scoring threats outside of open threes and layups/dunks. I don’t know that we’ve EVER seen him in an ISO situation to know what he would even do there.
Sorry, but with how Ochai was shooting FT’s today, hell no you don’t get him driving there because Dayton would’ve fouled the shit out of him and put him on the line where he wasn’t making shit today. And if you think Braun wasn’t creating opportunities today, then you need to back and rewatch and look at the box score. 5 assists don’t happen by accident and 8-12 with only one 3 point attempt doesn’t happen by accident either. Braun had the ball in his hands a lot today and was by far KU’s best playmaker today.
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@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@approxinfinity Do you think Dave getting going or Remy and Self figuring their crap out is more important to late season success?
To me it’s Remy/Self. This team has shown flashes of greatness already and those flashes have all involved Remy.
Look at KU’s tournament history with Frank. KU never got over the hump because of the 5 because Lucas was a non factor. Getting Dave to where he was in conference play last year is far more important to KU’s title hopes than Remy is at this point. Remy isn’t the only option KU has at PG whereas Dave is the only option at the 5.
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@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Kcmatt7 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Dave showed he can make big shots down the stretch in close games last year. He just started out sucking this year and he needs to get his head right. If he can’t do that without the ball always going through him then I don’t want to ride the struggle bus to get there, nor do the other 9 rotation guys.
Dave should NEVER be the guy we play through with a minute left. You have two players in Ochai and Remi too good to play through Dave.
Jesse Newell can talk about Remy hero ball, but literally all Frank did down the stretch was hero ball. Same with Graham. It’s what you do with PGs who can score the ball the way Remy does.
I do think Jesse hinted at the real issue which is Bill doesn’t trust Remy. Their relationship HAS to evolve (from both of them) for this season to go the way we all want it to.
Remy still gets pulled for defensive mistakes and Jalen no D Wilson comes in for him on the last defensive possession. When Remy gets pulled you can see it kills him. He does not hide his disgust. He plays hard and wants to win but his game and selfs game are not the same. Hopefully this game does something to bring them together. They both gotta give.
From what we’ve seen if Remy so far vs how he was at ASU the ego is from one side of this equation… Remy has for the most part been a patient and willing passer/teammate and decent enough defender . Some has to check their ego at the door and it isn’t the 23 year old.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@benshawks08 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@Kcmatt7 said in Dayton Game Thread:
@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
Dave showed he can make big shots down the stretch in close games last year. He just started out sucking this year and he needs to get his head right. If he can’t do that without the ball always going through him then I don’t want to ride the struggle bus to get there, nor do the other 9 rotation guys.
Dave should NEVER be the guy we play through with a minute left. You have two players in Ochai and Remi too good to play through Dave.
Jesse Newell can talk about Remy hero ball, but literally all Frank did down the stretch was hero ball. Same with Graham. It’s what you do with PGs who can score the ball the way Remy does.
I do think Jesse hinted at the real issue which is Bill doesn’t trust Remy. Their relationship HAS to evolve (from both of them) for this season to go the way we all want it to.
Remy still gets pulled for defensive mistakes and Jalen no D Wilson comes in for him on the last defensive possession. When Remy gets pulled you can see it kills him. He does not hide his disgust. He plays hard and wants to win but his game and selfs game are not the same. Hopefully this game does something to bring them together. They both gotta give.
From what we’ve seen if Remy so far vs how he was at ASU the ego is from one side of this equation… Remy has for the most part been a patient and willing passer/teammate and decent enough defender . Some has to check their ego at the door and it isn’t the 23 year old.
I do think they are both trying but like Self said, they just don’t see things the same way yet. I think they’ll get there. I hope Dave does too. He was big time for a while there at the end of last year. Disappointing that that’s not what we’ve seen to start the year but if I had to pick I’d rather he come on late than early and drop off.
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@approxinfinity said in Dayton Game Thread:
If Bill fs this one up with Remy it’s not going to bode well for future High profile transfers
Have a feeling we will be circling back to it
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Remy was lazy yesterday and that kind of stuff can impact the rest of the team. That won’t be the last time Self is tearing into Remy on the sidelines.
At the end of the day you just aren’t going to win many games shooting 21% from 3 and 45% from the line.
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McCormack’s offensive charge about the one minute mark really shows a lack of coaching or a lack of understanding by him. Dave was double teamed and should know by now for goodness sake that he needed to pass the ball out. Everyone should have been looking to Ochai during crunch time; certainly not Dave.
