After 3 games- Discussion
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We saw last night that we didn’t need Dave in order to win. The ± from the game proved KU was significantly better without him on the floor.
I hope Self starts bringing him off the bench as Wilson’s backup. I know its unlikely to happen at all, or for a while, but that’s the role he should have right now.
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Ah okay.
And yeah I’m of the opinion that it would be hard for Gethro to be worse, but Self seems to think he is unplayable. Maybe he will get some run against Washburn.
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@BShark said in After 3 games- Discussion:
@Crimsonorblue22 Kentucky’s athletes were too much for Bryce. I would expect him to be better in the games coming up against softer competition. I do believe Bryce can get to a point where he will be good in games like that, it will just take time.
This is a common theme with many of Self’s guard recruits. Mainly because he loves combo guards. The problem with combo guards is they generally are not elite at either shooting or ball-handling/playmaking, they are just good at both. This is always a problem early in the college season and continues until they shore up one or both of those skills. RusRob, Chalmers, Selby(not here long enough to fix), Selden, etc were all in this mold.
Harris is more playable than Bryce right now because his playmaking/point guard skill is at a higher level. He is an actual point guard. On the flip side Bryce has a higher ceiling and its up to the staff to get him closer to it by mid/late season.
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I don’t worry about Thompson, he will be fine. I do not, however, think that he will or should start over Harris. Think that Harris should be our starting PG.
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Not sure what Thompson did to earn the tough love yesterday but it happens every year in certain games with certain players. Self went with 6 guys after Mitch, Bryce & Tristan were bad on the court. The leash is long for others and non-existent for others.
Bryce is a scorer first and its the staffs job to put him in situations to maximize that. I’m not worried about him at all he’s a very good player and will figure it out. Yesterday was one of those days
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Agree Harris needs to start or at least see his minutes in the 25-30 range going forward.
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Harris needs to be on the floor as much as possible because the other guys all flourish off the ball. I’m not saying Harris should play 35 mpg, but he should be getting 28 or so because his ability to play the point helps make the other guys better. Garrett is a good stop gap PG, but he is not enough of a creator to be a fulltime PG. Harris is, and should play that role.
This team should be playing 5 out the majority of the time. That is unfortunate because that means Big Dave probably only plays 15-18 mpg, and that leaves no real role for Lightfoot at all. Even against bigger teams, KU’s advantage this year is in spreading the floor, not trying to match size for size.
Having a lineup with Wilson or Enaruna as the biggest guy, then with some combination of Garrett, Agbaji, Braun, Thompson, Harris, TGF is the best look KU can have. The rotation should look something like this:
Harris and Garrett: 25-30 mpg, with Harris on the higher end, Garrett on the lower end, and Garrett only playing about half his minutes with Harris.
Wilson, Agbaji, Braun: 22-25 mpg, with Wilson closer to the 25, Braun and Agbaji closer to 22.
Enaruna, Thompson: 18-20 mpg, with Enaruna on the lower end, Thompson on the higher end if he’s hot or needs to spell Harris or Garrett if one or both is in foul trouble.
McCormack, TGF: 14-18 mpg, both probably closer to the 14 mark than the 18 most nights. TGF could move up a level if his defense improves.
Lightfoot and others: minimal
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Yeah I want to see what Gethro has as well. He’s probably behind on knowing the scheme and what not but man just put him in, let him set screens, run to the rim and defend the rim on the other side. I’m confident he could do those base things as well or better then what we’re getting from Dave/Mitch
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The fact that Bill has already realized that his best 5 currently are that five guard lineup is huge. He would have NEVER done that in the past.
The question is if/when he gives up on Dave completely and we can find a way to go 5 guards the entire game even if Wilson gets in foul trouble. Or maybe Dave can get some mojo here against some cupcakes…
One thing is for sure, Dave needs to watch some Landen Lucas film and realize his role on this team is not to shoot the ball. No more turnaround jumpers. No more 15 footers. No more baby hooks over 7’3 wingspans. Just layups and screens on the offensive side of the ball. If Dave can do that, he becomes playable again. If he is going to keep forcing shots, he needs to sit. The man is 6’10, 260 lbs and is shooting 25% from the field and leading the team in turnovers. He is a net negative if he is going to keep playing this way.
Dave has a PER of 2.8 this year. Doke had a 31.5 last season. That is the dropoff. An average PER is 15. If we could even get THAT out of Dave, I think we’d all be feeling better. But there is not a single nice thing you can say about Dave the past three games other than it probably can’t get much worse…
I would imagine Bill is already thinking he needs to find a Plan B if Plan A is that Dave will start playing better.
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Big Dave is the wrong kind of big man for this particular team. This team needs a screen and lob big man, not a post up big man. A screen and lob big man would open up the paint for back cuts and drives, with the threat of misplaying the PnR always there to give an easy alley oop dunk every once in a while.
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@justanotherfan Dave and Mitch are painfully bad at screening.
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@justanotherfan said in After 3 games- Discussion:
Harris needs to be on the floor as much as possible because the other guys all flourish off the ball. I’m not saying Harris should play 35 mpg, but he should be getting 28 or so because his ability to play the point helps make the other guys better. Garrett is a good stop gap PG, but he is not enough of a creator to be a fulltime PG. Harris is, and should play that role.
This team should be playing 5 out the majority of the time. That is unfortunate because that means Big Dave probably only plays 15-18 mpg, and that leaves no real role for Lightfoot at all. Even against bigger teams, KU’s advantage this year is in spreading the floor, not trying to match size for size.
Having a lineup with Wilson or Enaruna as the biggest guy, then with some combination of Garrett, Agbaji, Braun, Thompson, Harris, TGF is the best look KU can have. The rotation should look something like this:
Harris and Garrett: 25-30 mpg, with Harris on the higher end, Garrett on the lower end, and Garrett only playing about half his minutes with Harris.
Wilson, Agbaji, Braun: 22-25 mpg, with Wilson closer to the 25, Braun and Agbaji closer to 22.
Enaruna, Thompson: 18-20 mpg, with Enaruna on the lower end, Thompson on the higher end if he’s hot or needs to spell Harris or Garrett if one or both is in foul trouble.
McCormack, TGF: 14-18 mpg, both probably closer to the 14 mark than the 18 most nights. TGF could move up a level if his defense improves.
Lightfoot and others: minimal
Yeah, Harris playing makes Garrett better. It’s a win/win.
Seems like Tristan is in the dog house but I would say we do need to get something out of him and Tristan. UK was one of those games where Self really wanted to win and rode his best guys.
Lightfoot is really proving to be unplayable unfortunately.
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@justanotherfan Not arguing that. I’m just not sure that exists on this roster… Someone has to play the 5 besides Wilson though. Wilson can’t play it 40 minutes a game because he is going to get in foul trouble several games simply because he is smaller and teams are going to try to exploit that all season.
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Yesterday Tristan and Mitch sitting most of the game was due to effort, or the lack of.
Mitch- Defended Sarr on a post move, Sarr missed the shot (good post d by Mitch) but Sarr was able to get the rebound from Mitch in a simple who wants the ball more type deal. Sarr scored, Mitch was out shortly after.
Tristan, on a Free Throw from Mintz doesn’t box out the shooter and Mintz gets the rebound and makes a short foul line jumper. Tristan sat shortly after.
Both cases it wasn’t hard to see why they never came back in
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@Kcmatt7 Just going to have to mix it up this year. The thing is Self seems more like a reactive coach than proactive. I hope Self changes lineups throughout the game to the point the other coach has to respond.
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Bruan and Ochai need to play 30+ MPG. Anything less is crazy talk.
We basically have 5 guys. We need to find a 4th guard who can play and we need to find a 2nd big who can sub in for Wilson for 10-15 minutes per game without absolutely killing us.
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Wow 2.8, that’s painful but accurate.
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Thompson will be that 4th guy, yesterday just wasn’t his day.
Agree that we basically have 5 guys and need to find a 2nd player to spell Wilson. Maybe this team can live with David filling in for those minutes. That’s maybe 10 a game or so on a good day. This team cannot live with Dave at the center of the offense when he’s in the game. That’s been arguably the biggest coaching mistake so far. The guards are programmed to feed the post when he’s in. Can’t happen, has to change.
What other options? It’s either pull the band-aid off Gethro or push Tristan into that role. Gethro is probably behind on the system and raw so therefore Self isn’t going to trust him this early. Tristan is really just a big guard but his problem seems to be defense and lapses in effort which don’t help. Maybe move Braun to the 5 and bring in Thompson. At least Braun rebounds hard and goes after it.
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@BeddieKU23 I think that Gethro has a high ceiling and could be a future pro.
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@justanotherfan which is why I say that Bill needs to go fullblown Beverly Hillbillies and let Gethro play. His averages would be better than Dave’s for damn sure, and his skill set is better suited for the players that we have. Dave is just not a good fit.
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That’s a big statement to make about Gethro. I’m just hoping he sticks around to develop. His HS tape intrigued. Maybe he gets some action against the easier teams we play in the next week or so.
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@BeddieKU23 said in After 3 games- Discussion:
That’s a big statement to make about Gethro. I’m just hoping he sticks around to develop. His HS tape intrigued. Maybe he gets some action against the easier teams we play in the next week or so.
If he can’t get in against Washburn, forget about it lol.
Without the covid situation, he would have redshirted this year 100%. From what I understand, he knows he is a bit aways from playing and is okay with it. In that interview with Curry he mentioned the staff is expecting him to play next year. Obviously you tell guys w/e, but I do think Curry and Zach have a chance to contribute immediately.
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It’s too early to tell what happens with Gethro but agree normal year he redshirts. Worse case scenario is something like Dave injuring the knee he’s already nursing and is out for extended period of time. That would create some discussion about how to potentially use Gethro.
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@BeddieKU23 said in After 3 games- Discussion:
Happy that the guys pulled out the game last night. It’s always great to get a win over Calamari’s theatrics and move one win closer to catching Kentucky on the all-time wins list!
I know it’s early but hopefully change is on the way for KU’s lineup and rotations. Without being too critical I think this team has already reached an inflection point. It took a while for Self to figure out the same issue last year when trying to run David and Doke out there together. All the data and video said that lineup sucked but it took a while before real change occurred. Last years team flourished after changes were made. So how long will it take before Self makes the move that could save the season?
After 3 games it’s clear McCormack is not a starter-level player at Kansas.
McCormack has struggled and that’s being extremely kind. Shooting 25% from the field, he has 14 rebounds in 50 minutes, as a 6’10 Junior. Hard to find anyone in the country as unproductive finding the ball as he’s been at that size. Something has got to change.
Look no further then the 2nd half yesterday where KU seized all the momentum. Jalen Wilson picks up a phantom 4th foul. The next several minutes until Wilson came back into the game were agonizing to watch. Force feeding the post for fadeaway jumpers, jump hooks going away from the basket, missed layups, fumbling the ball out of bounds. That’s just on offense. When Wilson comes back in the game KU is down 4 points and is playing catch up again. The ± with Dave on the floor is staggering. Cut the leash Bill, its your only hope.
What’s also clear, Dajuan Harris is a starter on this team.
Why isn’t he starting? What else is there to say. His impact in the last two games has been vital. KU doesn’t win either game without his high level of play. Defensively he’s a pest, great hands, instincts and gives KU a great 1-2 combo with Marcus. On offense he is the PG, keeps the ball moving and makes excellent passes. Above everything he seems to have great chemistry with the other starters and the level of play hits a different note when he’s on the court.
Moving forward KU’s best lineup is Harris, Garrett, Agbaji, Braun & Wilson.
Inserting Harris to run point, move Garrett off the ball and sliding Wilson to the 5 works. We saw it for chunks of last night and against St Joes. Garrett looks more comfortable off the ball & Wilson has had success at the 5 rebounding and slashing to the hoop. Small ball lineup is the way to go.
What’s everyone thoughts?
Beat me to this my friend been busy. - -So What I’d say is it’s been a few hours was wondering myself and I mentioned this last night. That as much as people are down on David right now and I’m frustrated too but like I said last night that IF we even begin to entertain the thought of winning a Championship or not and right now I think that’s kind of a stretch - -BUT if we are in the discussion for that , then we are going to have to have Dave somewhere along the line to produce.
I mentioned this last night and people mentioned that Villanova had won a Championship playing 5 out and that’s true they did. I understand BUT our 5 out is not the same caliber of 5 that Villanova had they just aren’t
I am not by any means we shouldn’t run 5 out the Majority of the time but there will be a time where we just have something from him - -if not for anything else for some minutes to help on boards. - -We come up against a front line of North Carolina, – Gonzaga again even Texas we need his help in some shape or form. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@justanotherfan sounds like we could have used silvio this year
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Even if Biggus Davus could just work on positioning himself to rebound he could be a positive … he’s got a body for rebounding, he just needs to be taught how to anticipate the offense enough to muscle in position for rebounding - he’s the biggest body out there!!
But that may be under the category of “ if you don’t have an instinct for it you ain’t goon a learn it in time “
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@MR11 said in After 3 games- Discussion:
@justanotherfan sounds like we could have used silvio this year
Agree, but he’s probably ending up in jail right? No choice unfortunately.
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I’m not sure Gethro will be in the mix. This team is better playing small, and Gethro isn’t so talented that he is screaming to get on the floor immediately, so there’s no real point in burning the shirt just to play him 8 minutes a game.
If TGF was playing a little better (still looks behind due to missing time this fall) he could be another guy that could help inside with his length. 4’s and 5’s would have no chance guarding him on the other end, and he could do okay in spot time handling post defense. Unfortunately, that’s at least a few weeks away, but could add some upside to this team. That would help spell Wilson, and Big Dave will still play some, so teams cannot go full bully ball on KU. The big thing is that, even when he’s in, Big Dave has to understand that he isn’t going to be force fed the basketball. That’s not his strength, and not the strength of the team overall. He has to be active, and that’s where he can get his touches and shots.
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Wow completely forgot about TGF due to how little he’s played so far. Definitely needs some seasoning and to get healthy. He doesn’t look like he has any of his athletic ability right now. Agree he’s an option
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No doubt we need Dave. But so far his numbers are negatively impacting the team single handily. Hopefully he can get healthy, practice on improvements he needs to make on the issues currently plaguing him.
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There have been several posts suggesting that to be successful (in the title hunt?), we’re going to “need” Dave or have him “produce” at some point. I would ask - “need” him for what or what are we looking for in terms of production?
I would agree that for depth and certain match-ups, he “needs” to be in the game for 15-20 minutes on average. But I would argue that when he is in, we basically run ZERO plays for him. If the guards throw it in to the paint to him, his sole function should be to kick it back out quickly, and not look to score. I might make an exception or two if only if the other team is pushing out the perimeter and he has someone no taller than about 6’6" behind him. And, then the only shot is a quick baby hook from 3 feet or less. Perhaps then maybe, I emphasize maybe, there is a 50% chance he scores. Otherwise, the only time he should be taking shots is off of offensive rebounds, and the occasional drive and dish.
The objective at this point is to simply not have him be a major liability on the court. He will continue to be on the defensive side due to poor footwork and positioning, inability to guard the perimeter, no rim protection, and mediocre rebounding skills. But, hopefully, less so than he has been on the offensive end. To put it bluntly, his numbers so far are horrific. 25% FG on 6-24 “shooting.” ZERO assists. Unfathomably, ZERO blocked shots (8 KU players have recorded a blocked shot - he ain’t one of them). 9 turnovers, which leads the team. And, it not just the stats - the offense completely bogs down when he is in because he takes up negative space.
Simply put, have him focus solely on rebounding, drawing a few fouls when he gets offensive rebounds, and otherwise mostly stay out of the way. If he can do that, he can be a useful part of the rotation…
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@BeddieKU23 said in After 3 games- Discussion:
No doubt we need Dave. But so far his numbers are negatively impacting the team single handily. Hopefully he can get healthy and practice and slow down and settle and cut down on the issues currently plaguing him.
Agree , and actually kind of the same train of thought as DCHawker said. I think mainly we need for match up grab a few rebounds we may not need him to score alot - -basket here - -basket there work or concentrate on defensive end - -just his presence - -help on the boards – if he scores he scores -we have scorers - just need him in certain situations.
Hell let Jalen go ahead play the 5 if possible - -let Dave back him up a bit I don’t know shows how much I know lol
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@justanotherfan I think the big thing with Tyon is he needs to get healthy.
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I don’t think Dave is as bad of a player as he showed last night. I also don’t believe he’s as good as a 5 star should be. He can be a valuable asset for this team. Generally his shooting seems decent, FT is nice. He just doesn’t play like a guy his size should.
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Another very good post regarding Dave. This sort of reminds me of the Quentin Grimes year and his performance as a starter. He was a big reason that team couldn’t put it all together. I see a lot of similarities already with Dave.
I will give Self credit for switching Wilson to the 5 in the last few games and finding a lineup combination that’s significantly better then others. Normally we don’t see that materialize so quickly. That gives me hope because we know he does look at analytics. He said they haven’t practiced much with 4 guards and Wilson. That lineup has some real chemistry and fight to them.
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@BeddieKU23 have to agree with you. The offense just comes to a halt when everyone tries to feed him. I mean, let’s be honest, the guy doesn’t even really rebound well. When is the Washburn game? Is it televised?
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@Marco ESPN+
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Gethro being behind Mitch, who Self doesn’t even want to play in tight spots, kinda says it all.
The good news is, once he gets stronger he is an interesting option. I think year three in the program is when we see him getting some actual tick.
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@Marco which is weird since I remember Dave being a pretty good rebounder the last 2 years. Could be that he was going up against backup bigs a lot of the time but still I would be a bit optimistic that the rebounding can improve. We haven’t seen anything to indicate that the shot selection and rim protection will come along though.
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Analytics say he’s been a below average rebounder since he’s been here. His Per 40 rebound numbers are poor (hovering in the 11’s in 3 years).
The advanced stats are not better. Doke got his hands on 21% of all rebounds while he was on the floor. Dave so far is at 14%.
Defensive rebounding, Dave is at 20% so far, Doke was at 26.9. That’s a huge gap.
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Dave’s worst stat is his ABSURD usage.
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Yeah 34%. Not sustainable, not even feasible.
You have to shift some of the blame to scheme and what the kids have been taught to do at that point. I get they had a plan to establish Dave in the post. That plan just has to be adjusted now that games have been played
Doke’s usage topped out at 30% Jr year but that was in only 9 games. He averaged around 22 his other years.
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@BeddieKU23 said in After 3 games- Discussion:
Analytics say he’s been a below average rebounder since he’s been here. His Per 40 rebound numbers are poor (hovering in the 11’s in 3 years).
The advanced stats are not better. Doke got his hands on 21% of all rebounds while he was on the floor. Dave so far is at 14%.
Defensive rebounding, Dave is at 20% so far, Doke was at 26.9. That’s a huge gap.
Agreed. Last year, Dave was on the floor almost exactly 1/2 the minutes Doke was, and he had just more than 1/3 the number of rebounds. And, he probably benefited somewhat from occasionally being the second big on the floor and not having to match up against the other teams best big. I would also note that with half the minutes of Doke, he had about 1/8th the number of blocks.
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It maybe unfair to compare Dave to Doke but I use it as the baseline from what we know is good to elite level play from a big man here.
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It isn’t unfair. This is KANSAS. Either you play well or you get criticized.
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@BShark said in After 3 games- Discussion:
Gethro being behind Mitch, who Self doesn’t even want to play in tight spots, kinda says it all.
The good news is, once he gets stronger he is an interesting option. I think year three in the program is when we see him getting some actual tick.
if he is still here in 3 years. - -could be by then if he is not getting time - -he will be gone
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Tonight would be a perfect time to let Gethro get some time - -get his feet wet, little time against some competition - -
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@jayballer67 I disagree. That guy is a player, and will play this year. Mark it.
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@jayballer67 All coach has to do is let him play tonight, and there will be no denying him pt after that.
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You are way off on this imo, there is a reason he isn’t getting off the bench in real game action.
I don’t think he is a transfer risk if he doesn’t play this year. Maybe if he doesn’t play at all next year as well. In that case it’s not really a huge deal anyway.
