Ochai
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To follow up I think this team has good individual pieces on defense but watching how good Tech & Virginia were on defense last season was about the sum of the parts and the scheme. If you don’t have all guys engaged defensively and the scheme be good enough this defense probably will be a slightly better version then the previous few seasons
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@BeddieKU23 Hoping Self has realized this after being smoked in the tournament two straight years…
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Looking at Kenpom here’s the avg defensive ranking for KU since 2005 broken up in 3 year clusters.
2005-2007- AVG ranking 7
2008-2010- AVG Ranking 6.6
2011-2013 - AVG ranking 4.6
2014-2016- AVG ranking 11.3
2017-2019- AVG ranking 29.3
Trending down defensively since 2014 for various reasons. The ceiling is there for this to be a very good defensive team. Based on the numbers I think a return to the top 10 is possible.
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Yeah, just didn’t have the bodies plus playing small w/o the pieces to defend small in 17 and 18. Last year was encouraging in that KU got back into the top 20 despite having two well below average athletes starting and playing big minutes.
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Hoping Self has realized this after being smoked in the tournament two straight years…
It should be at the top of the list. The worst defensive team in the Self era made the final 4 two seasons ago. But your right they got smoked in the Final 4. Last season we knew the defense wasn’t great after Doke, Vick and Silvio all ended the season not playing.
I’m excited to see this group on defense but I’m not buying an elite defense t-shirt just yet. They certainly have the pieces to be very good.
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@BeddieKU23 and if they don’t, somebody’s on the bench that would love to try!
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Yeah its amazing they were in the Top 20 considering the roster.
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On Dave’s improvement. The numbers clearly showed last season that the more minutes he played the better he was. He wasn’t a spark plug, instant impact guy off the bench. If he’s made the leap from his freshman year its a very encouraging sign because then Self can depend on him to come on regular rotations and foul trouble and be an anchor in the post. I was worried he would improve but not have enough minutes consistently to impact the game. If Self isn’t just pumping Dave up at this point I expect there to be minimal drop off when his number is called.
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BShark said:
Marco said:
Agbaji is going to tear it up this year. This team can be a juggernaut defensively, and mix and match defensively.
This is one thing we are in agreement on now.
I’ve seen the light @HighEliteMajor
Well, this is definitely a “big tent” item … all are invited.
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Doesn’t this team cry out, louder than any recent predecessor, to play conventional? To feed the post? 3/2?
And as mentioned above, defense, defense, defense. Great summary on the KenPom rankings - @BShark. Really enlightening.
I like the 4/1, but when it comes down to it, I still believe nothing beats the 3/2 high/low. But you have to have the regular and constant use of the kick out three. Inside out. And make that a primary weapon.
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HighEliteMajor said:
BShark said:
Marco said:
Agbaji is going to tear it up this year. This team can be a juggernaut defensively, and mix and match defensively.
This is one thing we are in agreement on now.
I’ve seen the light @HighEliteMajor
Well, this is definitely a “big tent” item … all are invited.
Woh woh woh! Tmi
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Sorry, I thought it was funny. Carry on
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HighEliteMajor said:
Doesn’t this team cry out, louder than any recent predecessor, to play conventional? To feed the post? 3/2?
And as mentioned above, defense, defense, defense. Great summary on the KenPom rankings - @BShark. Really enlightening.
I like the 4/1, but when it comes down to it, I still believe nothing beats the 3/2 high/low. But you have to have the regular and constant use of the kick out three. Inside out. And make that a primary weapon.
That was @BeddieKU23 on the kenpom averages.
This is why Moss is such a great fit. If this team is going to bang and bash he is a perfect fit as the old spot up 3 guy in Self’s offense. I think it will be the majority, with most likely Wilson being the back-up 4 which gives a lot of flexibility. Mitch will be the back-up 4 if he doesn’t RS but I believe that is happening from what I’ve heard.
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@HighEliteMajor The last two years, it’s abundantly clear we’ve had a defensive problem. We lost to Tech by 30. We got blown out by Nova. We got humiliated by Auburn. If the 3/2 helps us defensively, then I’m all for it…100%.
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I think Big Mac will get plenty of PT this year. Doke can’t go 40 mpg, or even close. And no reason to run Silvio ragged either. And then there is foul trouble. I can see Dave pulling 25 mpg, perhaps when you figure in factors like foul trouble, maybe pushing a little higher. We need a 3-big solid rotation to run constant 2 bigs.
With the improvement of Dave what I see it taking away from is the smaller lineup.
Nothing is set in stone, and if we run a 2-big lineup and it doesn’t produce well, you can expect to see a smaller lineup again. Anything to push success. I see Dave’s uptick challenging minutes from guys like Jalen, Marcus and others who could get some minutes at the 4 in a small lineup.
Notice I didn’t even mention Mitch. I wonder why…
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@drgnslayr I just visualized a scorers table with subs checking in that inspire me. oooooo… November comes after June right?
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@drgnslayr Jalen is 6’8’’. The sooner he realizes he is a 4 the better imo.
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@drgnslayr KU will have 7 players at or near 25+ minutes per game next season.
The question with Dave’s minutes and his ability to play alongside Doke will be if he has the range to be the high in the high-low. If not and his range is still primarily inside of 10’, that limits Dave’s minutes to strictly backing up Doke instead of some minutes next to him.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Supposedly he’s the best shooting big on the team, better than Silvio.
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@BShark I suppose the other question with Dave at the 4 is does he have the quickness and agility to guard 4’s out on the perimeter?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 It’s definitely another issue. I like what I was starting to see last year with him working on screens and being able to recover. He also looks like he has slimmed down pretty well.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BShark I suppose the other question with Dave at the 4 is does he have the quickness and agility to guard 4’s out on the perimeter?
Maybe that’s a risk worth taking now that the 3 point line has been moved back. Unless the 4 is a known 3 point shooter with accuracy guys with stretch ability might not be as accurate now.
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KUSTEVE said:
@HighEliteMajor The last two years, it’s abundantly clear we’ve had a defensive problem. We lost to Tech by 30. We got blown out by Nova. We got humiliated by Auburn. If the 3/2 helps us defensively, then I’m all for it…100%.
Coach use to pride himself with the bust as Defense – what happened? - like you say these last years have been bad – -really bad. - -I don’t know how many countless times last year I watch opposing players have WIDE - - -WIDE open 3’s - -hell they had time to pack a lunch throw the picnic cover down spread it out eat it and - STILL have time for the wide open 3 - -time and time again - -and if they weren’t wide open then All I saw was some one give like a half hearted jog out kind of throw an hand up and like Olay defense or allie - -allie all in free type approach - use to be if you didn’t play bust ass defense for Coach - you didn’t play - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I don’t think Dave plays hardly any 4. No way he can guard most 4’s, let alone switch onto guards. Silvio can switch onto a lot of guards and has some skill, so he’ll play A LOT.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BShark I suppose the other question with Dave at the 4 is does he have the quickness and agility to guard 4’s out on the perimeter?
Just interested me some to hear and got me hyped to a degree - -When the media asked Coach Self who the most improved player was from last year he said almost quicker then they could get the question out of their mouth - - - Coach said David McCormack hands down without a doubt - - -just thought WOW/Dam - I mean he didn’t even pause - -hesitate. - now I’m not sure like you I wonder about his foot work - -speed being good enough quick enough to try and defend the 4 - -all I know is looking forward to seeing the big guy work.
Now I know you’ll more likely then not if ever - -BUT let’s just play this scenario - -How awesome would it be if even for just a few minutes could you imagine - what if we saw Doke - - -McCormack - - & Silvio on the frontline at the same time for a couple of minutes? - -I mean - -JUMPIN - - -GEE - - HOSSA - - FATS - -could there be any more imposing front line in College Basketball then those beasts lol - -just messin around and wondering - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Don’t hold me to this… but I think Dave has “lightened the load” on his frame. He’s moving much better!
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@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’ve seen it discussed so it was worth bringing up. Honestly I wouldn’t want Mitch defending most 4’s either. He’s really springy but not great laterally. If Wilson fails to launch I could see Garrett playing some 4 if the matchup makes sense.
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@FarmerJayhawk I want everyone’s opinion on this, do you think (it seems some have more or less said as much) that he’s just a spot up shooter?
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He’s been in Lawrence for like 10 minutes. He didn’t play well yesterday but it’s June 19th and it’s a scrimmage so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
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Marco said:
@FarmerJayhawk I want everyone’s opinion on this, do you think (it seems some have more or less said as much) that he’s just a spot up shooter?
Not at all. He’s actually pretty skilled for a guy his size.
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@approxinfinity Wilson has some skills, but it will take time to develop those skills. All 4 freshmen are minimum 3 year players, likely 4 year guys. The one with the best chance to develop and leave early is Tristan Enaruna. I would say Enaruna is the 3rd best NBA prospect on this roster right now behind Ochai and Silvio and just ahear of McCormack.
If Enaruna can become a true wing at his size, he then becomes a potential lottery pick in 2022 or 2023. The ideal line up for KU in 2021-22 is McBride at point, Enaruna and Wilson as interchangeable pieces at the 3 and 4 spots, Braun as the 6th man, and 2020 recruits at the combo and post spots.
I like Braun and think we’ll have fond memories him when he’s done at KU, I just don’t see a high ceiling with him and if Braun’s starting by then, I think that means Self had some big whiffs in both the 2020 and 2021 classes at the combo guard spot. If Braun starts then because someone developed ahead of schedule, I can live with that.
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Nice article on Wilson: https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article231695353.html? From the article: Self, when talking earlier this week, did nothing to lower expectations for Wilson — one of the top-rated recruits in the Jayhawks’ 2019 class along with Tristan Enaruna.
“He gives us size, he gives us toughness and he gives us skill,” Self said. “He’s not going to wow you like some people may think, like Josh (Jackson) could, from an athletic standpoint and quick-twitch standpoint, but he just knows how to play. He’s a winner.”
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approxinfinity said:
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
Why would it not be a good idea? Best case scenario, he can play between 10 and 20 minutes a game, play decent D and make some threes. At worst, he’s a backup when someone gets in foul trouble who you can put it to steal a few minutes. Sounds like a win-win to me.
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I’m excited to have Jalen. I see him as a different form of Dedric. Remember how he was billed as being non-athletic? Dedric sure knew how to fill a stat sheet, and let’s face it, it’s the stat sheet that really determines the final score. I will always take these kinds of “non-athletes” over the high-flying guys that can’t fill a stat sheet.
From what I have heard about Jalen… he stays active and he embraces contact. He always finds himself around the ball. We haven’t had many players like that… so I’m psyched to have Jalen on this team. I’m worried about his freshman year… adapting to D1… but I’ve been convinced recently that he’ll find ways to contribute, even in his freshman year.
I think we’ve all been spoiled with a specific “standard” KU player; long, athletic, etc. We need to focus on who will contribute instead.
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@drgnslayr Good point. It’s nice to go after players that are perceived as having the most upside and talent, but at the end of the day, you need players who play smart and disciplined and make winning plays. I don’t think many would consider Villanova’s championship teams in 2016 and 2018 as being elite athletically, but were some of the smartest and well-disciplined teams I’ve seen in the last ten to fifteen years.
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HawkChamp said:
approxinfinity said:
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
Why would it not be a good idea? Best case scenario, he can play between 10 and 20 minutes a game, play decent D and make some threes. At worst, he’s a backup when someone gets in foul trouble who you can put it to steal a few minutes. Sounds like a win-win to me.
I like taking him because Self should try to field the best team he can. I do however see Texas Hawk’s concern as these kind of players have mostly not worked out under Bill.
@drgnslayr We needed Dedric last year, but I think everyone was ready to move on by the end. A big part of the defense suffering was Q and Dedric. Dedric produced, but then gave it back on the other end. I can understand why Self favors athletic guys that can defend.
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I understand your concern. But don’t forget how many rebounds Dedric snagged, too.
Jalen is a different kind of “non-athlete.” He’s a tough guy who likes contact. I don’t think any of us would use that description for Dedric. Dedric just knew how to score and to some degree, rebound.
Expect Jalen to be on the receiving end of black eyes, scrapes, etc.
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I’m just nervous. The chemistry on the team seemed so perfect, so I see Jalen as the most likely risk to that chemistry. Having a less athletic guy who is a top 50 recruit and best friends with a top 10 guy, if he rides pine could be an unhappy camper. I don’t want that on the bench. Hope Im unnecessarily worried.
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@approxinfinity If that’s the case, he’s outnumbered.
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@BShark exactly about Dedric.
@drgnslayr if Wilson consistently plays good d then i won’t question his attitude, and I’ll be happy to be wrong. But that requires a combination of lateral quickness and commitment. Hard to believe he can play perimeter d well but not jump. Don’t you need quick twitch to stay with a man too? We will see if he has it.
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@approxinfinity 6’8” with a wing span to match makes up for a little quickness. He’ll get some minutes to season him for next year if nothing else.
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Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
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bskeet said:
Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
Some good points here.
Udoka is a guy that can average 2+ blks a game. His Soph year he had 60 and before the injury last season I think we saw some improvement from him on instincts and when to contest a shot at the rim. I distinctly remember him blocking a 3 point attempt in one of the earlier games last season. The instincts are there but he’s been limited every year in some capacity. I’m not expecting he becomes Embiid/Withey/Aldrich all of a sudden but I think his presence alone alongside another athletic big at minimum is going to limit easy baskets that our smaller lineups over the past few years have struggled with.
Silvio & Dave are not natural rim protectors but I think they will hold their own. Silvio is a very good athlete and we should see better defensive instincts out of him now that he’s had time in the program. If Dave continues to improve his athleticism and explosiveness as Self has said is happening you have to be excited about what he can do.
Prison Mitch has elite instincts as a shot blocker especially weakside. His anticipation is a skill.
There should be no excuse for KU limiting easy baskets and protecting the rim at an above average level this season
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Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
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bskeet said:
Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
Shot blocking itself isn’t essential. The ability to alter shots is more important to me and this roster is more than capable of altering many shots at the rim. Blocks will happen eventually, but I’m much more concerned about changing shots than blocking shots.
Blocked shots at the college level frequently go out of bounds and the other team usually retains possession. Altering shots usually lead to rebound opportunities and change of possession.
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Anyone see how good Ochai looked being fed by Tyshawn in the scrimmage? I hope DD was taking note…
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@KUSTEVE I hear what you’re saying, horses need to be fed.
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drgnslayr said:
Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
It is a relatively recent departure from hedging for Kansas, basically in the OAD era. Hopefully it returns.
