The Disappointment.
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@SkinnyKansasDude - You said, “Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.”
Initially, I wonder how the Bill Self is God crowd (now with the focus on his character) will reply, related to your comment. I had always used the “Bill Self is God” phrase related to his basketball decision making – how many simply felt his decision-making is/was beyond even discussion. Always gives me a chuckle thinking back on the irrational hysterics.
You make a very good point. If he’s cheating on his wife, he’ll cheat elsewhere. I should have been smarter.
Look, he’s off the pedestal in my eyes now. That ship has sailed. I was naïve and stupid.
And no, Bill Self is not a “genius.” He’s a basketball genius.
But your last statement, “I’m just mad we got caught”, is your opinion. I understand. I personally think that this sort of mentality is disgusting. It’s disgusting to me on many levels. I can’t imagine a day when character and integrity are not important to me.
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@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
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Aren’t we all guilty?
We all have come to realize that college sports has an architecture that supports payoffs and other dirty play. We’ve all either slammed people like Calipari (or read the slams and laughed). Yet we allowed ourselves to buy into the fairytale that Kansas is different. Kansas and Self were just so superior we could win over top recruits with our finesse versus other schools and entities offering money to kids and their families who have very little.
I haven’t read anything here that is shocking to me. I don’t like it. But I try to not think about it and I focus on young athletes out there playing with their hearts.
I do have to admit that I am disappointed in Self and Company for ever having direct contact with any of these shoe people. Just how much of this communication was even necessary? How did they think these communications would be seen as harmless by the public (and maybe the NCAA). Why gamble that?
I’m pretty sure most of the payoffs in college sports has gone undetected by the public and media.
This all reminds me of the issue with marijuana. Look at our society change now and suddenly it’s no big deal to be a user because of the news that so many people are users… probably even Sanjay Gupta. This should be the moment in college sports where it is addressed that most athletic programs (if not all) tolerate behavior around them that lets things happen, including prized athletes receiving subsidized educations for their sports efforts!
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
If the job doesn’t grossly overpay for the work being done, then it’s fine.
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But like @mayjay said I don’t think she was interested in working.
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@BShark not sure a bank would hire her?
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It is disappointing… Dammit. It just is. Even though I could probably say I’ve had the assumption everything isn’t above board for years… There have been some things that one could argue made it look as though “above board” was at least the goal of the staff. The sitting of Cliff, Selby, DJ, Preston. Idk…
Where do we go from here? Who knows. I don’t think the university is firing a hall of fame coach no matter the outcome here minus an indictment perhaps. Can’t say I’d even want that outcome. Although, I must say if we have been buying recruits all along we really haven’t been getting out money’s worth with 1 NC to show for that… Hope that’s not the case. But is that just as naive as believing it doesn’t in fact go on everywhere? Including here apparently…
Integrity is not a tricky business. People just like to make it gray to justify their own actions. It’s that simple. For instance, and I’ve said this for years, nobody comes home after the game and talks about how the refs jobbed the other team. Right? No. Fans just come home happy they won and don’t care why. Now if you’re team gets jobbed by the refs and they lose then it’s all that’s talked about by fans. In the same manner that if this was UK/calipari most KU fans as well as the rest of the country would be allover it like white on rice. That slimeball!!! I knew it all along!!! Yada yada and yada…
But now we have fans that want to change that tone to… “Well, there’s really not a dollar amount discussed”. “There’s really not a smoking gun”. “Our coaches really didn’t know”. “As long as we don’t get caught”. “As long as we don’t get in trouble”. “Everyone’s doing it, it’s been going on for decades”.
Ask yourself these questions. Is it okay with you if Duke and UK cheat and go the FF and win NC’s because of it?
Is it okay with you if your kid illegally(yes for now illegally) smokes pot cause other kids are doing it?
Is it okay with you if your kid cheats on academics but maintains a 4.0 gpa and is successful? Maybe cause other kids get away with it?
Turning a blind eye, pretending it doesn’t happen, or doesn’t matter… SMH…
You really wanna teach your kids that? You really want the university and the program we all love to teach the students and student athletes that? That it’s not only okay but it’s supported by many, to start out their adult life learning how to bend and break the rules?
That’s the message you want to send?
Integrity is not a tricky business. Not a slippery slope. Not a gray area.
@HighEliteMajor applaud you for bringing up the tough topic. The one none of us really wanted to face. Well done sir.
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With all the big boys paying (including Nova) only one team a year gets their moneys worth by that definition. The alternative though is probably not even making the tournament.
I wouldn’t compare this to things that are actually illegal. Then again I don’t think this is bad. Personally, I wouldn’t even call it gray. The kids are paid, and then make more money for the school and shoecos. It’s business. It’s only bad if you think these kids should be exploited, and work for free.
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@BShark no. That’s incorrect. I’m sorry. But it is. This is a totally separate issue. Youre talking about your opinion of how things should be. Not how they are. As of right now. It’s breaking the rules. Not gray. It’s black and white.
So basically you’re saying that if your kid gets busted for smoking pot in Kansas, it’s okay because it should be legal… And probably will be someday. That’s gonna be your defense? Think that works out well in court? Doubt it.
We all have to live by the laws and rules as they are today. Not how they should be in some people’s minds.
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@BShark so about cliff, did we pay for him? I thought his mom sold her soul? Funny how most of these parents that did these illegal payments have ruined their kids lifes. I thought diallo’s problems were academic?
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@cragarhawk Well actually it is different. Parents and or kids are not going to go to jail for taking money. This has been going on since the 60’s and probably before and to my knowledge not one parent and kid has gone to jail. So yea it is different.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yes it was Cliff’s Mom who took a loan. I agree that it sucks that there are parents out there basically pimping their sons, but that’s what the NCAA has created.
Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t think KU directly paid anyone in regards to Cliff. But it wouldn’t shock me if they took shoe money, and I guess blew through it too, since his mom took out that loan.
Diallo’s handler probably took shoeco money.
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@Woodrow it is against the rules. Is it not? Nobody has to go to jail for it in order for it to be against the rules. Whether you believe it’s right or wrong.
Rule states no. Therefore consequences do happen. It doesn’t have to be jail… Your kid probably isn’t going to jail for cheating on a algebra final either. But you think there aren’t consequences? The point is that you don’t get to use the defense in either case that “everyone’s doing it” “the NCAA or society created it” , or “it should be legal or not against the rules anyway”
You wouldn’t use that defense for Coach K or Calipari, or Roy, or Sean Miller or anyone else.
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@cragarhawk What consequences have happened? Nothing has happened and I fully expect nothing to happen to KU from this. SDS might become ineligible, but this won’t be the first time a KU players has had to sit out. It happens every year across the NCAA.
Also, you have no idea how or what I would say if another coach or another school was “caught”. Those guys you listed do the same shit and play the same game. If that is not something you can grasp then that’s on you.
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If the FBI didn’t think they had enough on KT to put him on trial, the NCAA won’t do crap.
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@cragarhawk You don’t think NCAA hasn’t known about this type of stuff for years? Of course they have but they look the other way. Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.
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Woodrow said:
Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.
This is it. They make millions for free. That’s why the “rules” are a joke. They know these kids have to be paid somehow and they don’t want to do it.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
To the extent you mentioned and if she was wholly unqualified it would or shopuld be a violation since it is clearly a bribe. However, handing her a newspaper with the help wanted adds or giving her a list of jobs that include cashier at HyVee or Return Desk at Home depot or order taker at McDonald’s or any other jobs that meet her qualification would certainly not be. In fact, most companies that relocate employees…as an example…will help the family at the new location with jobs for other members, schooling and so on and the school should be able to help families that relocate to watch their kids play. Granted that giving them free apartment or jobs for which they are not qualified would be a clear violation. Remember Reggie Bush? The school wsa heavily penalized for doing just this so it is obvious impermissible.
BTW, to those who mentioned Ronnie Chalmers, he was very well qualified for the position. He has a Bachelor degree in Business Administration, a Master’s in human Resource Management and Development, managed Air Force teams and Summer Leagues for many years and was a HS coach for 5 years winning 2 state titles…a good fit for the position he was hired. He was hired after Mario moved to Lawrence, Ronnie retired and decided to move to Lawrence to watch him play…at least this was the offcial story but one that is defensible.
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@Woodrow you’re right. I apologise. I have no idea what you would say if it was another school or coach. Perhaps you would be in the minority of ppl nationwide that would say the same regardless of whether or not it affected your school/team.
Again, whether or not players should be paid, whether or not it goes on other places, whether or not the NCAA is w multibillion dollar evil organization that exploits student athletes, is not what’s in question here.
If it’s a rule and you break it. There are consequences. If you know it’s wrong. And you do it anyway. And then make excuses for it, that’s a lack of integrity. Which is at the heart of my post. Nobody gets to choose whether they follow the rules based on their opinion of said rules.
Follow the rules. Or if you don’t. Which everyone at some point in their life has broken some law or rule, don’t make excuses about it. Don’t try to make it to be okay. Just own up and accept it. Congratulations. You’re human. As all the rest.
Maybe there won’t be consequences and maybe there will… Banners coming down, wins being vacated, suspensions, post season bans… could happen and has happened in the past.
We now live in a world where it wouldn’t surprise me at all if there are no consequences. And quite frankly that’s part of the problem. Not part of the solution.
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@cragarhawk Very well said.
@Woodrow - I think @cragarhawk’s point is that when we talk about other coaches and programs, we (collectively) have thrown significant mud. When it’s turned on us, then some become hypocrites.
So, if you learned that Calipari gave 1% of his salary each year in cash to each scholarship player, I’d assume then you’re ok with that?
And no, most people don’t believe the players should be paid. That’s a completely unsupported statement. A large majority of folks I’ve discussed the topic with believe the value of the college education in dollars is sufficient compensation. And when you discuss all of the issues involved - choice, contracts, private entities, who owns the product, who owns the facilities, etc., - the narrative changes. When folks consider the facts, and how business works, then opinions change. If they simply don’t like bosses, owners, companies, etc., which many don’t, you aren’t changing those opinions. They live in a world of entitlement.
it is a billion dollar business. Of course it is. So what? That doesn’t entitle the non-owners to anything. That’s the concept that you and others just ignore.
@BShark “They make millions for free.” Who? Oh, you mean the owners? The ones that own the stadiums, own the other facilities, own the product, negotiate the contracts, and make the offers to players that are accepted (meaning the contracts)? I know, it’s unfair. Workers of the world, unite.
The rules are a joke to you. The rules are joke to you because they permit the owners to make money you want redistributed. The players are entitled to nothing. Zero. And they don’t have to participate. But that creates difficulty in the narrative.
The kids don’t have to be paid. They just don’t. That’s an opinion, not fact. There is no support for that statement, factually. It’s like saying you have to legalize something because there is a black market for whatever is sold illegally.
On the other hand, the NCAA (which is really the member schools) have to decide on their business model. If it better to pay players, that’s the call they have to make. If it’s better to strengthen the rules, and enforcement, resulting in many top players doing something else, then do that (which I’m all for – because I think the product will not suffer). I don’t need to see Andrew Wiggins in CBB.
That all said, it’s why the FBI prosecution is a joke to me. We’re talking about internal rules set up to aid a business venture (NCAA). And a private company (Adidas) acting in their best interests to aid their profit margin paid players. So what?
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Woodrow said:
Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.
Bowen Sr is just one of many in that boat
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@HighEliteMajor Well, the schools/NCAA wouldn’t make a dime without the players so there is that. I’m talking about college only. Pro players have their unions and negotiate their contracts. I don’t feel bad for them at all, they are well compensated.
And yes I would be fine with Cal giving 1% of his salary to each scholarship player.
The NCAA is the colleges. Like you said this is why the whole thing is a joke. Secretly they are fine with paying the players imo, they just want it done in the dark. That’s why they play pretend, never crack down on the money makers while wagging their finger when Nowhere State visibly breaks a rule.
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I did enjoy wiggs! Zero problems! I also loved Ben Mac! A lot of the guys or moms doing illegal stuff are ruining their sons lives. I know cliff is probably not going to make it and billy didn’t do well in Bosnia? And is playing G league. Probably not his hopes and dreams. They both needed guidance and college time. They could’ve made it. A little cash for a short amount of time, wasted!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Players will develop just as well or better in the G-League imo. Basketball 24/7, instead of pretending to go to class and having limits on practice time to improve their craft. Basically every other league in other countries have youth development programs. Sign the kids on at 13-14 and develop them. Works great for football (or soccer if you prefer) and MLS has actually started doing this as well. Sporting KC have a 16 year old that made it into the game last night. This is where the NBA wants to get to, based on rumors.
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@BShark how long can you stay in G league?
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Obviously that would basically be the end of college basketball as we know it and for greedy personal reasons I don’t want it to happen. But it seems inevitable.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark how long can you stay in G league?
I don’t know. Probably a long time. But the salaries aren’t great so at a certain point the player would want to consider going to one of the better clubs in Europe and making more money. Lots of the 4 year guys under Self have had good, long careers in Europe.
Edit: In fact the money in college ball is probably better than playing in the G League for the elite guys unless they can get a shoe contract.
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@cragarhawk Have you ever jaywalked?
Ever gone over the speed limit?
Have you ever drank underage?
Have you ever let your kids run an illegal lemonade stand without a license?
Have you ever put $20 on a game with your friend and won, not paid the income tax on that?
Have you ever cut someone’s grass for cash and not claimed it on income tax?
Have you ever played a poker game with your buddies for cash?
Those are all laws that people choose not to follow daily. Cops don’t even write tickets for pot anymore in Lawrence. You could smoke a J right in front of a LPD officer and they’d just laugh and tell you to go do it somewhere else.
People break laws all the time that they don’t believe in. And I’d guess, including you. This high horse thing you are doing is absolute crap and hypocritical unless you are Jesus himself.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
not sure a bank would hire her?
Wells Fargo might.
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https://twitter.com/draftexpress/status/1052952238489051136?s=21
Changes are coming.
This article states that the G league is going to offer 125,000$ contracts and target what would be 1 and done kids. Beginning summer of 2019.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@cragarhawk Have you ever jaywalked?
Ever gone over the speed limit?
Have you ever drank underage?
Have you ever let your kids run an illegal lemonade stand without a license?
Have you ever put $20 on a game with your friend and won, not paid the income tax on that?
Have you ever cut someone’s grass for cash and not claimed it on income tax?
Have you ever played a poker game with your buddies for cash?
Those are all laws that people choose not to follow daily. Cops don’t even write tickets for pot anymore in Lawrence. You could smoke a J right in front of a LPD officer and they’d just laugh and tell you to go do it somewhere else.
People break laws all the time that they don’t believe in. And I’d guess, including you. This high horse thing you are doing is absolute crap and hypocritical unless you are Jesus himself.
Yeah, technically you are supposed to claim garage/yard sale money as well as eBay sales on your taxes. 99% of people don’t.
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From my memory of the Cliff Alexander recruitment Self was accused by other schools (fans) etc for how he was able to secure his commitment. The term Dollar Bill has been a popular one over the years
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Woodrow said:
https://twitter.com/draftexpress/status/1052952238489051136?s=21
Changes are coming.
This article states that the G league is going to offer 125,000$ contracts and target what would be 1 and done kids. Beginning summer of 2019.
Right on cue! I hadn’t even seen this tweet when I made my post.
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125k is a game changer. Everyone might be recruiting the 50-100 ranked kids if that goes through
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Yes it was obvious the NBA wants this. What the players dont get is that the reason the NBA wants it is they will get a much fuller evaluation of their abilities. They will see them actually play against guys their equal. No more skipping the playing part of the combine. This replaces that. Which means a ton of them will be drafted lower. NBA draft will become just like MLB draft. Nobody will care anymore.
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@BShark Yard sale money, and online auctions of items, are not taxable unless you sell things for more than you paid for them. If you start an eBay business, usual rules apply.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/tax-tips-for-online-auction-sellers
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@Kcmatt7 I did say Human. As all the rest. Which would be including me. I’m not on any high horse. Not even close. Doesn’t mean I believe there shouldn’t be consequences or they should change rules or laws based on my actions nor anyone else’s.
Nobody was using these excuses prior to the truth coming out. But now suddenly they are acceptable. That is the point. And you know what. Kudos to you if you’ve never ever muttered a negative word about another coach or program that got caught or had allegations. I can’t say that. I have said plenty about other coaches I thought were slimy based on similar things to that of what is now coming out about our program. And I could choose to make excuses. Or I can choose to say ya know what. It’s just as slimy here as it is anywhere else.
I absolutely have done many of the things you listed. Doesn’t mean I was right.
In fact. I have gone over the speed limit. In a group with probably 10 other vehicles doing the same thing. And been pulled over and ticketed while others weren’t. I paid the ticket. And moved on. Knowing I had done wrong. I guess instead I should have went to the judge with “hey others were doing it and they didn’t get a ticket” I’m sure then the state of Oklahoma wouldn’t have $188 of my money huh. And then they would change the law to say well… It shouldn’t be illegal in this guy’s opinion so it’s not anymore. Speed away…
High horse? Hell, I bet I’ve even used an aerosol can in a manner other than directed…
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@Kcmatt7 The moral equivalency crap is an historically weak argument, one that is used by the worst of society to justify all conduct. I hope you understand the company that is kept with that argument. So, under your logic, you’d associate jaywalking with murder? See, that’s how easy your argument fails?
With that, no one is saying an NCAA rules violation is murder. But the prosecution suggests it is a felony. A felony isn’t jaywalking.
But the NCAA rules and violating them, isn’t a felony (standing alone, outside of the “defrauding” argument).
However, we are talking about a coach entrusted to steward and protect our program and the history of KU basketball. A coach contractually required to follow NCAA rules,. A coach that knows the rules. A coach that knows the repercussions of violations. This is even more important to me than whether something amounts to a crime – he has breached the trust of KU alumni.
Now, those of you who don’t care, you don’t care. You never will. And I’m sure you won’t care then if I break into your car and steal your IPhone, you know, because everyone drinks a beer when they’re under 21.
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@HighEliteMajor I want to reply, but I think it would take this entire discussion in a direction that would be a disservice to the board and others following the thread. Because of that, I will refrain from replying to you any further on the subject.
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I’d say I’m less excited about this season with what has came out for sure. I also think that the NCAA is to blame for letting it go on. What choice does a power 5 team have if the NCAA is letting others get away with it like they have for decades? If you want to get these guys and do anything but get stomped 30 you are going to have to do the same thing. Players have been getting paid for decades at least maybe since it began, I know guys that played at the JUCO level and NAIA level that say guys got stuff. Think of it like the speeding ticket, most of us prob go 5 or 10 over because we haven’t been ticketed for doing so. If I was pulled over for doing 5 overa few times, I wouldn’t do it anymore. The question to me is how dirty are we? Did we pay some guys, all guys? I think most of us would call out other programs if such was released about them but I’m still not sure how everything adds up with what we know. It makes zero sense to sit certain guys you paid while playing others.
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@kjayhawks One thing we haven’t discussed – what if the broad range of other schools are not doing this? I know that seems a bit far-fetched. But what if there are some that aren’t in this conspiracy?
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@HighEliteMajor Maybe it isn’t totally prevalent. But rumor has it that even the famed Little Sisters of the Poor is bringing in former East German female weightlifters to play the 4 position, using improper recruiting inducements such as free steroids.
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Jeremy is an asshole.
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@HighEliteMajor That would be interesting, I’d fire Self the day that came out if it was true. If we are paying guys to win one title in 30 years, we arent doing it right. I would say my chances of winning the lotto are higher than most of the power conference teams being clean.
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@kjayhawks So, you will be hosting us on your yacht for a big Buckets party in April?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@kjayhawks One thing we haven’t discussed – what if the broad range of other schools are not doing this? I know that seems a bit far-fetched. But what if there are some that aren’t in this conspiracy?
You can find those teams at the bottom of their conference standings, if there are any P5 programs that are truly clean.
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It will be interesting to see how the university handles this after the trial and verdict. Do they admit the wrong doing? Do they make Self face the media? Do they essentially “take the 5th” because there could be further charges? Do they fire KT as the sacrificial lamb? Does the chancellor demand accountability? Does the AD challenge the “cheating” culture? Does KU commit to a clean program, no payments, no Adidas help, moving forward?
The university has to respond to this, right?
Or, does … everyone … just … act … like … nothing … happened?
Have we already seen the net result – Markese Jacobs decommitting because he wasn’t paid (?) and KU gaining commitments from 100ish guys? No commits from anyone near a high-level recruit status?
The lead story at ESPN.com. How lovely.
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Violations ‘not worth it’ to new KU aide
By Gary Bedore
Tuesday, June 8, 2004
Kurtis Townsend, who was hired Monday as an assistant men’s basketball coach on Bill Self’s staff at Kansas University, worked at California from 1993 to 1997 under two head coaches – Todd Bozeman, who was fired and sanctioned by the NCAA for rules violations, and Ben Braun, Bozeman’s successor.
Townsend never has been accused of NCAA wrongdoing.
“I’ve asked for and received letters from the athletic directors at Michigan and Cal indicating I never had anything to do with NCAA (violations),” Townsend said. "We were at Michigan after they recruited the Fab Five.
"What happened with Todd was very difficult. To see that happen to a colleague and friend made it more difficult for me. That happening in my first college job … I said I’d never do anything like that. It’s not worth it to me.
“You don’t have to do things – a scholarship is a reward in itself. My daughter has been awarded a track scholarship to Syracuse. I can tell you it’s a big deal to our family that she’s on scholarship.”
