The Disappointment.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it’s about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn’t, that we didn’t have to, and that it wasn’t widespread.
This. Continue down this train of thought.
It IS widespread.
So far in the FBI investigation we have now had mentions of players getting some sort of improper benefit or noted as offering one:
- Duke
- KU
- UK
- UNC
- NC State
- Texas
- Oregon
- Arizona
- Creighton
- DePaul
- Iowa State
- Alabma
- Clemson
- Seton Hall
- Utah
- Villanova
- Virginia
- Washington
- Wichita State
- Xavier
- Louisville
- LSU
- Maryland
- Notre Dame
- Michigan State
- Oregon
- Miami
- Oklahoma State
Thats almost 25% of major conference teams right there. I could name other players that ended up strange places.
- Caleb Swanigan to Purdue
- Jaylen Brown to Cal
- Derrick Rose/Austen Nichols to Memphis
- Mustafa Heron to Auburn
- Jaylen Fisher to TCU
- Thomas Bryant to Indiana
- Kevin Looney to UCLA
- Deangelo Russel to Ohio State
- Rashaud Vaughn to UNLV
- Jujaun Johnson to Marquette
- Isaiah Austin to Baylor
- Steven Adams to Pitt
- Winston Shepard to SDSU
- Bradley Beal to Florida
- Shittu to Vanderbilt
- Nickeal Alexander-Walker to Virginia Tech
- Chaundee Brown to Wake Forest
- Blake Harris to Missouri
- Like every player to UConn under Ollie
- Michael Beasley to KSU
And I’m not saying all of those guys got paid. But a lot of their recruitments were… lets just say suspect. That doesn’t include players staying home who were suspect. Imagine how easy it would be to land a top 100 in-state kid by calling up a booster and that booster hiring their parent to a cushy job. So much of it goes under the radar that there isn’t even a paper trail.
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I shouldn’t be commenting on here since I really have no clue what’s going on - I rarely read the news. If the scoop is that Bill Self is/was doing something illegal, immoral or Calipari-ish then yes, i am greatly disappointed. I REALLY thought he was above board.
If he is guilty of some impropriety, what does that mean for KU? Is there an honest coach out there anywhere? Does anyone care if there’s an honest coach out there?
I’m not condoning ANYONE cheating in any way shape or form. The only one I know to turn to for answers in a difficult situation once said this:
“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” (NKJV - words are in red - you know the author)
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The top programs in all of college sports have been aided and abetted this way for decades by whomever has an interest, from boosters to shoe companies. Self knows he is in this top tier arena, so he, like all the other coaches, essentially has to play by the “rules” to stay a top tier program. Adidas is in stiff competition with Nike, and the understanding is that they will find a way to deliver guys to their flagship schools like KU, while KU (like everybody else) looks the other way. Why did Preston’s mom freak out about Self and KU finding out?? Because she knew that would violate how the game is played, and her son would never play a minute -which is what happened.
There may be other schools and coaches where a family member could care less about knowledge of payments because they know the key people (coaches and assistants) are in on the payments. Not KU. KU is is DEFINITELY NOT “supposed” to know. But they do know… that’s how the rules of the recruitment game are.
schools can offer jobs and a variety of other permissible perks as listed by many on this thread, to steer players their way, and they tacitly let the shoe cos do the dirty work of direct cash payments.
Unless there is direct EVIDENCE, NOT Just innuendo and reading into contextual meaning, that links our program to illegal payments, we will be fine, Self will be fine, and we should all go back to rooting for our team.
When I was about 6, my brother told me how babies were made, that there was no Easter bunny or Santa Claus, and that Peter Pan was just a kid on a wire. I grew up, and still enjoy the holidays as well as other things, including basketball.
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@Kcmatt7 And McDermott to Creighton, too! Pretty sure the coach had all types of extra contact, and gave extra food and stuff to that guy for years.
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@mayjay LMAO.
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To the guys who are surprised about some of this.
How did you feel about the following:
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Self hiring Townsend who was on staff at California when they cheated like crazy to the point Boezman was banned from coaching in NCAA for 8 years.
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Mario Chalmers dad getting a staff job.
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Angel Morris having a job and being relocated to Lawrence.
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Tyshawn’s entire family moved to Lawrence.
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Numerous other parents who come from impoverished backgrounds yet somehow have the ability to up and move and secure jobs and living quarters.
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Julian Wright committing without ever visiting campus
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Darnell Jackson getting paid
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B Rush getting paid before coming back
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Selby driving a Mercedes - thought to be Adidas money
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@Bosthawk The Peter Pan thing always screwed me up. First, Mary Martin, then Sandy Dennis. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized that the character was a boy that for some reason was portrayed on stage by women in their 20’s and 30’s. Shades of Shakespeare.
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When Wiggins did his campus visit I saw his mom in a Lawrence liquor store, and she bought a 6-pack of Michelob Ultra. She paid cash. WHERE’D SHE GET THE CASH?
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@DanR Did the $10 bill have a picture of a shoe in the center? Adidas cash fuels 19.6% of the Lawrence economy, according to the Brookings Institution. And she no doubt got a Dollar Bill in change.
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@mayjay It was crisp and non sequential. That’s what made me suspicious. Plus, who ever has a ten dollar bill? That’s weird right there. Singles and 20s are what everyone has.
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@DanR His mother being Canadian, this sounds like a Loonie story to me.
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@mayjay I’m especially suspicious of any Canadian who drinks Michelob Ultra.
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@DanR Should be Molson.
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@approxinfinity One of the reasons Chalmers came to KU was because his dad was hired onto the staff, right? Or is that the other way around? I never thought anything about that before. But, now I have to look at it a little differently.
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@Lulufulu yes. Just like MPJ last year at Mizzou, Danny Manning and his dad, and many more.
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Yeah, having Ronnie Chalmers be the DBO was part of getting Mario. WORTH IT btw.
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@Woodrow There was a little difference for Ed Manning. Brown had previously coached Ed in the ABA where he played for 10 years. Furthermore, Brown hired him as an assistant coach for his initial KU staff, not a job any new coach would waste on hoping to get a player a year away. Finally, Brown took him to the NBA after Danny graduated and Ed kept working for San Antonio as a scout, I believe, after Brown left. So his hiring was more legit than some of the others usually listed, even if the UNC fans will never believe it.
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Correction (edit): Danny announced his decision to go to KU in the fall of 1983 his senior year. According to the NYT, it was only 3 weeks after Ed was hired. So the timing wasn’t good. (Ed actually replaced Jo Jo White on the staff.)
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Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.
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@HighEliteMajor And Ed’s would still be allowed because any parent hired has to fill an assistant coach position.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.
Lots of stuff KU does isn’t.
Hell I wish KU would do more stuff like that instead of going after high risk targets like Preston. If Preston/his mom never take the shoe money and instead KU sets up Nicole with a job somewhere, then Billy plays and there is no issue.
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@BShark She seems like someone who would have not been willing to work for the money if she could cash in on Billy. That gave her more time to rehearse her indignant-Mom act.
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@BShark So you want our coach to willingly and purposefully violate NCAA rules?
@mayjay Maybe she’d prefer to make $14 … the hard way.
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@HighEliteMajor wrong sex
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mayjay said:
@DanR His mother being Canadian, this sounds like a Loonie story to me.
I see what you did there.
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Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.
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SkinnyKansasDude said:
Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.
You must be from Kentucky or KSU. Are the sheep still huddling on the other side of the barn?
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@HighEliteMajor That’s not what I said. We were talking about something legal, setting up a parent with a job.
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@SkinnyKansasDude - You said, “Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.”
Initially, I wonder how the Bill Self is God crowd (now with the focus on his character) will reply, related to your comment. I had always used the “Bill Self is God” phrase related to his basketball decision making – how many simply felt his decision-making is/was beyond even discussion. Always gives me a chuckle thinking back on the irrational hysterics.
You make a very good point. If he’s cheating on his wife, he’ll cheat elsewhere. I should have been smarter.
Look, he’s off the pedestal in my eyes now. That ship has sailed. I was naïve and stupid.
And no, Bill Self is not a “genius.” He’s a basketball genius.
But your last statement, “I’m just mad we got caught”, is your opinion. I understand. I personally think that this sort of mentality is disgusting. It’s disgusting to me on many levels. I can’t imagine a day when character and integrity are not important to me.
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@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
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Aren’t we all guilty?
We all have come to realize that college sports has an architecture that supports payoffs and other dirty play. We’ve all either slammed people like Calipari (or read the slams and laughed). Yet we allowed ourselves to buy into the fairytale that Kansas is different. Kansas and Self were just so superior we could win over top recruits with our finesse versus other schools and entities offering money to kids and their families who have very little.
I haven’t read anything here that is shocking to me. I don’t like it. But I try to not think about it and I focus on young athletes out there playing with their hearts.
I do have to admit that I am disappointed in Self and Company for ever having direct contact with any of these shoe people. Just how much of this communication was even necessary? How did they think these communications would be seen as harmless by the public (and maybe the NCAA). Why gamble that?
I’m pretty sure most of the payoffs in college sports has gone undetected by the public and media.
This all reminds me of the issue with marijuana. Look at our society change now and suddenly it’s no big deal to be a user because of the news that so many people are users… probably even Sanjay Gupta. This should be the moment in college sports where it is addressed that most athletic programs (if not all) tolerate behavior around them that lets things happen, including prized athletes receiving subsidized educations for their sports efforts!
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
If the job doesn’t grossly overpay for the work being done, then it’s fine.
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But like @mayjay said I don’t think she was interested in working.
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@BShark not sure a bank would hire her?
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It is disappointing… Dammit. It just is. Even though I could probably say I’ve had the assumption everything isn’t above board for years… There have been some things that one could argue made it look as though “above board” was at least the goal of the staff. The sitting of Cliff, Selby, DJ, Preston. Idk…
Where do we go from here? Who knows. I don’t think the university is firing a hall of fame coach no matter the outcome here minus an indictment perhaps. Can’t say I’d even want that outcome. Although, I must say if we have been buying recruits all along we really haven’t been getting out money’s worth with 1 NC to show for that… Hope that’s not the case. But is that just as naive as believing it doesn’t in fact go on everywhere? Including here apparently…
Integrity is not a tricky business. People just like to make it gray to justify their own actions. It’s that simple. For instance, and I’ve said this for years, nobody comes home after the game and talks about how the refs jobbed the other team. Right? No. Fans just come home happy they won and don’t care why. Now if you’re team gets jobbed by the refs and they lose then it’s all that’s talked about by fans. In the same manner that if this was UK/calipari most KU fans as well as the rest of the country would be allover it like white on rice. That slimeball!!! I knew it all along!!! Yada yada and yada…
But now we have fans that want to change that tone to… “Well, there’s really not a dollar amount discussed”. “There’s really not a smoking gun”. “Our coaches really didn’t know”. “As long as we don’t get caught”. “As long as we don’t get in trouble”. “Everyone’s doing it, it’s been going on for decades”.
Ask yourself these questions. Is it okay with you if Duke and UK cheat and go the FF and win NC’s because of it?
Is it okay with you if your kid illegally(yes for now illegally) smokes pot cause other kids are doing it?
Is it okay with you if your kid cheats on academics but maintains a 4.0 gpa and is successful? Maybe cause other kids get away with it?
Turning a blind eye, pretending it doesn’t happen, or doesn’t matter… SMH…
You really wanna teach your kids that? You really want the university and the program we all love to teach the students and student athletes that? That it’s not only okay but it’s supported by many, to start out their adult life learning how to bend and break the rules?
That’s the message you want to send?
Integrity is not a tricky business. Not a slippery slope. Not a gray area.
@HighEliteMajor applaud you for bringing up the tough topic. The one none of us really wanted to face. Well done sir.
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With all the big boys paying (including Nova) only one team a year gets their moneys worth by that definition. The alternative though is probably not even making the tournament.
I wouldn’t compare this to things that are actually illegal. Then again I don’t think this is bad. Personally, I wouldn’t even call it gray. The kids are paid, and then make more money for the school and shoecos. It’s business. It’s only bad if you think these kids should be exploited, and work for free.
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@BShark no. That’s incorrect. I’m sorry. But it is. This is a totally separate issue. Youre talking about your opinion of how things should be. Not how they are. As of right now. It’s breaking the rules. Not gray. It’s black and white.
So basically you’re saying that if your kid gets busted for smoking pot in Kansas, it’s okay because it should be legal… And probably will be someday. That’s gonna be your defense? Think that works out well in court? Doubt it.
We all have to live by the laws and rules as they are today. Not how they should be in some people’s minds.
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@BShark so about cliff, did we pay for him? I thought his mom sold her soul? Funny how most of these parents that did these illegal payments have ruined their kids lifes. I thought diallo’s problems were academic?
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@cragarhawk Well actually it is different. Parents and or kids are not going to go to jail for taking money. This has been going on since the 60’s and probably before and to my knowledge not one parent and kid has gone to jail. So yea it is different.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yes it was Cliff’s Mom who took a loan. I agree that it sucks that there are parents out there basically pimping their sons, but that’s what the NCAA has created.
Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t think KU directly paid anyone in regards to Cliff. But it wouldn’t shock me if they took shoe money, and I guess blew through it too, since his mom took out that loan.
Diallo’s handler probably took shoeco money.
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@Woodrow it is against the rules. Is it not? Nobody has to go to jail for it in order for it to be against the rules. Whether you believe it’s right or wrong.
Rule states no. Therefore consequences do happen. It doesn’t have to be jail… Your kid probably isn’t going to jail for cheating on a algebra final either. But you think there aren’t consequences? The point is that you don’t get to use the defense in either case that “everyone’s doing it” “the NCAA or society created it” , or “it should be legal or not against the rules anyway”
You wouldn’t use that defense for Coach K or Calipari, or Roy, or Sean Miller or anyone else.
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@cragarhawk What consequences have happened? Nothing has happened and I fully expect nothing to happen to KU from this. SDS might become ineligible, but this won’t be the first time a KU players has had to sit out. It happens every year across the NCAA.
Also, you have no idea how or what I would say if another coach or another school was “caught”. Those guys you listed do the same shit and play the same game. If that is not something you can grasp then that’s on you.
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If the FBI didn’t think they had enough on KT to put him on trial, the NCAA won’t do crap.
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@cragarhawk You don’t think NCAA hasn’t known about this type of stuff for years? Of course they have but they look the other way. Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.
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Woodrow said:
Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.
This is it. They make millions for free. That’s why the “rules” are a joke. They know these kids have to be paid somehow and they don’t want to do it.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
To the extent you mentioned and if she was wholly unqualified it would or shopuld be a violation since it is clearly a bribe. However, handing her a newspaper with the help wanted adds or giving her a list of jobs that include cashier at HyVee or Return Desk at Home depot or order taker at McDonald’s or any other jobs that meet her qualification would certainly not be. In fact, most companies that relocate employees…as an example…will help the family at the new location with jobs for other members, schooling and so on and the school should be able to help families that relocate to watch their kids play. Granted that giving them free apartment or jobs for which they are not qualified would be a clear violation. Remember Reggie Bush? The school wsa heavily penalized for doing just this so it is obvious impermissible.
BTW, to those who mentioned Ronnie Chalmers, he was very well qualified for the position. He has a Bachelor degree in Business Administration, a Master’s in human Resource Management and Development, managed Air Force teams and Summer Leagues for many years and was a HS coach for 5 years winning 2 state titles…a good fit for the position he was hired. He was hired after Mario moved to Lawrence, Ronnie retired and decided to move to Lawrence to watch him play…at least this was the offcial story but one that is defensible.
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@Woodrow you’re right. I apologise. I have no idea what you would say if it was another school or coach. Perhaps you would be in the minority of ppl nationwide that would say the same regardless of whether or not it affected your school/team.
Again, whether or not players should be paid, whether or not it goes on other places, whether or not the NCAA is w multibillion dollar evil organization that exploits student athletes, is not what’s in question here.
If it’s a rule and you break it. There are consequences. If you know it’s wrong. And you do it anyway. And then make excuses for it, that’s a lack of integrity. Which is at the heart of my post. Nobody gets to choose whether they follow the rules based on their opinion of said rules.
Follow the rules. Or if you don’t. Which everyone at some point in their life has broken some law or rule, don’t make excuses about it. Don’t try to make it to be okay. Just own up and accept it. Congratulations. You’re human. As all the rest.
Maybe there won’t be consequences and maybe there will… Banners coming down, wins being vacated, suspensions, post season bans… could happen and has happened in the past.
We now live in a world where it wouldn’t surprise me at all if there are no consequences. And quite frankly that’s part of the problem. Not part of the solution.
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@cragarhawk Very well said.
@Woodrow - I think @cragarhawk’s point is that when we talk about other coaches and programs, we (collectively) have thrown significant mud. When it’s turned on us, then some become hypocrites.
So, if you learned that Calipari gave 1% of his salary each year in cash to each scholarship player, I’d assume then you’re ok with that?
And no, most people don’t believe the players should be paid. That’s a completely unsupported statement. A large majority of folks I’ve discussed the topic with believe the value of the college education in dollars is sufficient compensation. And when you discuss all of the issues involved - choice, contracts, private entities, who owns the product, who owns the facilities, etc., - the narrative changes. When folks consider the facts, and how business works, then opinions change. If they simply don’t like bosses, owners, companies, etc., which many don’t, you aren’t changing those opinions. They live in a world of entitlement.
it is a billion dollar business. Of course it is. So what? That doesn’t entitle the non-owners to anything. That’s the concept that you and others just ignore.
@BShark “They make millions for free.” Who? Oh, you mean the owners? The ones that own the stadiums, own the other facilities, own the product, negotiate the contracts, and make the offers to players that are accepted (meaning the contracts)? I know, it’s unfair. Workers of the world, unite.
The rules are a joke to you. The rules are joke to you because they permit the owners to make money you want redistributed. The players are entitled to nothing. Zero. And they don’t have to participate. But that creates difficulty in the narrative.
The kids don’t have to be paid. They just don’t. That’s an opinion, not fact. There is no support for that statement, factually. It’s like saying you have to legalize something because there is a black market for whatever is sold illegally.
On the other hand, the NCAA (which is really the member schools) have to decide on their business model. If it better to pay players, that’s the call they have to make. If it’s better to strengthen the rules, and enforcement, resulting in many top players doing something else, then do that (which I’m all for – because I think the product will not suffer). I don’t need to see Andrew Wiggins in CBB.
That all said, it’s why the FBI prosecution is a joke to me. We’re talking about internal rules set up to aid a business venture (NCAA). And a private company (Adidas) acting in their best interests to aid their profit margin paid players. So what?
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Woodrow said:
Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.
Bowen Sr is just one of many in that boat
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@HighEliteMajor Well, the schools/NCAA wouldn’t make a dime without the players so there is that. I’m talking about college only. Pro players have their unions and negotiate their contracts. I don’t feel bad for them at all, they are well compensated.
And yes I would be fine with Cal giving 1% of his salary to each scholarship player.
The NCAA is the colleges. Like you said this is why the whole thing is a joke. Secretly they are fine with paying the players imo, they just want it done in the dark. That’s why they play pretend, never crack down on the money makers while wagging their finger when Nowhere State visibly breaks a rule.
