The Disappointment.
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@HighEliteMajor Maybe the “I need to cheat to be competitive in recruiting” rationalization feels to those people more like looting bread to survive after a hurricane rather than looting jewelry or TVs to take advantage of chaos or no LE. I don’t agree but I think that is what it is.
I do have a question for you that goes back to our discussion about which school’s record would we want, KU or UConn. Would you be satisfied with a squeaky clean program that never wins a title if it is true that other blueblood programs are not clean? Or is turning a blind eye something us idealists have to be willing to do to compete in recruiting? I am torn here. I cannot say I am happy following KU football, but is that a price that might have to be paid were a coach to guarantee perfect compliance as the highest priority?
On my “gleeful” comment: I think it stands for itself. It wasn’t directed at you. An analogy would be similar reactions from fans who “know” their team is going to blow a lead in the 4th quarter and instead of being disappointed like the rest seem smug when their negative expectations are realized.
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@nuleafjhawk It’s okay, Virginia. Santa, Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny do exist, and their name is Big Shoe.
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mayjay said:
@BeddieKU23 Thank you. There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa.
Knowing how this game works, and not burying my head in the sand makes me gleeful? Sure OK if that makes you feel better.
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@HighEliteMajor Well before this trial, I’ve said that KU has creatively paid players. When it’s a topic of course, and it frequently wasn’t. But I have brought up Sherron, Julian etc… before the trial. I was often met with scorn but the reactions here were mostly pretty tame from what I remember, compared to other KU boards.
@Woodrow Makes sense with MPJ and Trae. Good info, thanks.
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@HighEliteMajor I have absolutely said that I though Bill Self knew he was getting paid players. I expected more degrees of separation, but I absolutely thought he knew about every single player that got paid.
It’s really only “morally bankrupt” if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place.
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I am not gleeful that KU is caught up in this at all.
I sort of am gleeful that this might change amateur basketball to a system that actually works for the players.
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Someone on the Phog actually put it quite well. I know some here don’t check there, so I am going to copypaste it. I would generally agree with all of this.
"Take the Zion conversation. There are three parts to that. The occupation part. Well, that’s on KU’s staff and boosters. We’ve been doing that for years (Angel Morris immediately comes to mind). The same Lawrence townie takes care of the housing too. That’s an open secret and not news—I’m sure there’s a paper trail of an application, interview, etc. If it’s news to you, you just haven’t been paying attention.
It’s the paying them cash thing that’s really the issue here. I would be shocked if there’s a single bit of evidence of KU staff member talking logistics or amounts of cash, from an apparel company or any other source. In fact, I’m confident there’s not because if there was, the FBI would have indicted that coach too. Do they know it happens? Sure, again, in a general sense. Do they have a specific knowledge of how much or when or even who? No. And, if they do come across that knowledge (i.e. Preston), they bite the bullet and sit the player.
Some people may say that’s all dirty and they should be fired. And maybe it is. But I’m totally okay with that level of cleanliness. I haven’t seen anything yet to lead me to believe it’s any different. So, while I would prefer that this stuff had never seen the light of day, it doesn’t really change my opinion about the whole ordeal…yet."
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@Kcmatt7 You said, “It’s really only “morally bankrupt” if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place.”
I cannot imagine a worse response. Perhaps I’ll break into your car, steal your phone, because the laws were made by folks that exploit the common man and are unfair to those that don’t have phones.
And, of course, you ignore the entire concept that all participating in NCAA basketball are doing so by choice, with the current rules. We’ve done this dance before. That irrefutable. What you describe is your feelings or opinion, which is fine – how you feel about rules and laws is nice. But it doesn’t change the fact that they are the rules and law. And you’re advocating ignoring them because of how you feel.
Or worse, justifying the blatant violations by our head coach.
And in particular, we’re talking about the man with more money than anyone else involved, who is the one at the tip of spear of your complaints. He would have to be the lead “exploiter of athletes.” No one profits more personally than Bill Self.
@mayjay My “looting” reference was not of the stealing to survive mentality. But to your point, I can’t buy the logic (and I know you’re just pointing out how some may view it as a discussion item – and I think you may be right on how they view it. But I think it is the wrong view namely because it really isn’t about survival).
Really, and I’d ask everyone to think about this – does anyone think that Bill Self gets the money he gets from Kansas without a big shoe deal? Bill Self is paid by Adidas – not directly like some coaches – but he is paid.
What if Bill Self was a truly moral man that just blew the whistle? Exposed the system. Declared “we’re not paying.” Declared that KU is dead clean, play for the best program in the country.
And this isn’t where Self wouldn’t have a job if he stopped participating in this stuff. He would. And he’d still make millions. Just not as much, and perhaps not as successfully. No FF without DeSousa last season, I think we can agree.
He made the choice not to survive (as @mayjay alluded to as being a possible thought process), but to thrive (and to win it all). That is much different.
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@HighEliteMajor The NCAA doesn’t even actually care when schools break the “rules”, as long as it’s done in the dark. They have shown this repeatedly with their actions. Duke has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar more than once, and approximately nothing happened each time. At the end of the day, they are going to protect their money makers.
The sham of “amateur athletics” and “non-profit” is only there to trick people. I’d say it doesn’t work, but you seem to subscribe to it based on your words here. You are right we have had these conversations before. Would you still try to argue that these players don’t have value beyond a scholarship?
Also nothing to do with paying players is illegal. It has nothing to do with the law. It’s just against NCAA rules, which, again are not really enforced to begin with.
I would agree with you that Self is paid by Adidas. So obviously, Adidas is going to want to get good players sent his way so that he can continue winning, which sells Adidas apparel.
In your theoretical situation, Self doesn’t get enough good players to compete, imo. I think you might be surprised that all KU players are paid. It’s not just players like Wiggins, Josh, Diallo, Selby, Cliff, Silvio etc… It’s Frank, Devonte, Perry, Cole, TRob, Releford, Reed, Taylor etc… Basically any player that has been on scholarship at KU in the last 30+ years. Roy and Larry weren’t clean either. Hell, Wilt didn’t turn down pro money to play in Lawrence for free. It’s been pay for play for a long time. Maybe not as widespread, and the shoecos are relatively new (90s) but the money has always been there for those that want it.
An interesting question would be, what IF the money wasn’t there? I think you would actually see these kids take a year in Europe, Australia etc… but since the money is there they prefer staying in the country.
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@BShark Regarding the comment about paying players not being illegal … I agree with you. In fact, I was very clear on my opinion of that when the entire FBI deal started. I didn’t think it amounted to “fraud.”
However, as we’ve seen, the prosecutor thinks it is illegal because it defrauds the university. Buying that logic, Self, KT, and the players are co-conspirators. With Self and KT, no different than if an office manager stole from her company. And actually, in my mind, that has better logic than a criminal case against an employee of a separate organization (Adidas) competing in the marketplace.
I do like your comment – “the sham of ‘amateur athletics’ and ‘non-profit’ is only there to trick people.”
I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it’s about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn’t, that we didn’t have to, and that it wasn’t widespread. In large part because we never hear of a 30 year old former player saying, “yeah, I got $30k from UK.” The silence indicated something to me.
I just don’t (yet) buy your narrative where you suggest the payments to all these players. But I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m rethinking my thoughts on all of this.
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I don’t think the defense will be convicted fwiw. I think they created much more than reasonable doubt. I’m not sure how a jury could come back with a guilty verdict but we will see.
@HighEliteMajor Lately some high profile guys like Shaq, Jay Williams etc… have come out and said they were paid. Maybe they didn’t want to before so that the school wouldn’t be punished but with everything out there now, they felt like saying it. I don’t know their thought process, of course.
A lot of the ways where schools de facto pay players are not only legal but are fine via NCAA rules as well. Setting up jobs for the parents of players isn’t particularly against the rules. Ultimately those parents are still doing the work that the job requires, one would assume. The housing deals might be a bit more gray, I’m certainly not an expert on NCAA bylaws.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it’s about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn’t, that we didn’t have to, and that it wasn’t widespread.
This. Continue down this train of thought.
It IS widespread.
So far in the FBI investigation we have now had mentions of players getting some sort of improper benefit or noted as offering one:
- Duke
- KU
- UK
- UNC
- NC State
- Texas
- Oregon
- Arizona
- Creighton
- DePaul
- Iowa State
- Alabma
- Clemson
- Seton Hall
- Utah
- Villanova
- Virginia
- Washington
- Wichita State
- Xavier
- Louisville
- LSU
- Maryland
- Notre Dame
- Michigan State
- Oregon
- Miami
- Oklahoma State
Thats almost 25% of major conference teams right there. I could name other players that ended up strange places.
- Caleb Swanigan to Purdue
- Jaylen Brown to Cal
- Derrick Rose/Austen Nichols to Memphis
- Mustafa Heron to Auburn
- Jaylen Fisher to TCU
- Thomas Bryant to Indiana
- Kevin Looney to UCLA
- Deangelo Russel to Ohio State
- Rashaud Vaughn to UNLV
- Jujaun Johnson to Marquette
- Isaiah Austin to Baylor
- Steven Adams to Pitt
- Winston Shepard to SDSU
- Bradley Beal to Florida
- Shittu to Vanderbilt
- Nickeal Alexander-Walker to Virginia Tech
- Chaundee Brown to Wake Forest
- Blake Harris to Missouri
- Like every player to UConn under Ollie
- Michael Beasley to KSU
And I’m not saying all of those guys got paid. But a lot of their recruitments were… lets just say suspect. That doesn’t include players staying home who were suspect. Imagine how easy it would be to land a top 100 in-state kid by calling up a booster and that booster hiring their parent to a cushy job. So much of it goes under the radar that there isn’t even a paper trail.
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I shouldn’t be commenting on here since I really have no clue what’s going on - I rarely read the news. If the scoop is that Bill Self is/was doing something illegal, immoral or Calipari-ish then yes, i am greatly disappointed. I REALLY thought he was above board.
If he is guilty of some impropriety, what does that mean for KU? Is there an honest coach out there anywhere? Does anyone care if there’s an honest coach out there?
I’m not condoning ANYONE cheating in any way shape or form. The only one I know to turn to for answers in a difficult situation once said this:
“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” (NKJV - words are in red - you know the author)
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The top programs in all of college sports have been aided and abetted this way for decades by whomever has an interest, from boosters to shoe companies. Self knows he is in this top tier arena, so he, like all the other coaches, essentially has to play by the “rules” to stay a top tier program. Adidas is in stiff competition with Nike, and the understanding is that they will find a way to deliver guys to their flagship schools like KU, while KU (like everybody else) looks the other way. Why did Preston’s mom freak out about Self and KU finding out?? Because she knew that would violate how the game is played, and her son would never play a minute -which is what happened.
There may be other schools and coaches where a family member could care less about knowledge of payments because they know the key people (coaches and assistants) are in on the payments. Not KU. KU is is DEFINITELY NOT “supposed” to know. But they do know… that’s how the rules of the recruitment game are.
schools can offer jobs and a variety of other permissible perks as listed by many on this thread, to steer players their way, and they tacitly let the shoe cos do the dirty work of direct cash payments.
Unless there is direct EVIDENCE, NOT Just innuendo and reading into contextual meaning, that links our program to illegal payments, we will be fine, Self will be fine, and we should all go back to rooting for our team.
When I was about 6, my brother told me how babies were made, that there was no Easter bunny or Santa Claus, and that Peter Pan was just a kid on a wire. I grew up, and still enjoy the holidays as well as other things, including basketball.
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@Kcmatt7 And McDermott to Creighton, too! Pretty sure the coach had all types of extra contact, and gave extra food and stuff to that guy for years.
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@mayjay LMAO.
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To the guys who are surprised about some of this.
How did you feel about the following:
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Self hiring Townsend who was on staff at California when they cheated like crazy to the point Boezman was banned from coaching in NCAA for 8 years.
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Mario Chalmers dad getting a staff job.
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Angel Morris having a job and being relocated to Lawrence.
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Tyshawn’s entire family moved to Lawrence.
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Numerous other parents who come from impoverished backgrounds yet somehow have the ability to up and move and secure jobs and living quarters.
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Julian Wright committing without ever visiting campus
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Darnell Jackson getting paid
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B Rush getting paid before coming back
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Selby driving a Mercedes - thought to be Adidas money
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@Bosthawk The Peter Pan thing always screwed me up. First, Mary Martin, then Sandy Dennis. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized that the character was a boy that for some reason was portrayed on stage by women in their 20’s and 30’s. Shades of Shakespeare.
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When Wiggins did his campus visit I saw his mom in a Lawrence liquor store, and she bought a 6-pack of Michelob Ultra. She paid cash. WHERE’D SHE GET THE CASH?
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@DanR Did the $10 bill have a picture of a shoe in the center? Adidas cash fuels 19.6% of the Lawrence economy, according to the Brookings Institution. And she no doubt got a Dollar Bill in change.
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@mayjay It was crisp and non sequential. That’s what made me suspicious. Plus, who ever has a ten dollar bill? That’s weird right there. Singles and 20s are what everyone has.
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@DanR His mother being Canadian, this sounds like a Loonie story to me.
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@mayjay I’m especially suspicious of any Canadian who drinks Michelob Ultra.
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@DanR Should be Molson.
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@approxinfinity One of the reasons Chalmers came to KU was because his dad was hired onto the staff, right? Or is that the other way around? I never thought anything about that before. But, now I have to look at it a little differently.
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@Lulufulu yes. Just like MPJ last year at Mizzou, Danny Manning and his dad, and many more.
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Yeah, having Ronnie Chalmers be the DBO was part of getting Mario. WORTH IT btw.
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@Woodrow There was a little difference for Ed Manning. Brown had previously coached Ed in the ABA where he played for 10 years. Furthermore, Brown hired him as an assistant coach for his initial KU staff, not a job any new coach would waste on hoping to get a player a year away. Finally, Brown took him to the NBA after Danny graduated and Ed kept working for San Antonio as a scout, I believe, after Brown left. So his hiring was more legit than some of the others usually listed, even if the UNC fans will never believe it.
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Correction (edit): Danny announced his decision to go to KU in the fall of 1983 his senior year. According to the NYT, it was only 3 weeks after Ed was hired. So the timing wasn’t good. (Ed actually replaced Jo Jo White on the staff.)
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Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.
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@HighEliteMajor And Ed’s would still be allowed because any parent hired has to fill an assistant coach position.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.
Lots of stuff KU does isn’t.
Hell I wish KU would do more stuff like that instead of going after high risk targets like Preston. If Preston/his mom never take the shoe money and instead KU sets up Nicole with a job somewhere, then Billy plays and there is no issue.
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@BShark She seems like someone who would have not been willing to work for the money if she could cash in on Billy. That gave her more time to rehearse her indignant-Mom act.
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@BShark So you want our coach to willingly and purposefully violate NCAA rules?
@mayjay Maybe she’d prefer to make $14 … the hard way.
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@HighEliteMajor wrong sex
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mayjay said:
@DanR His mother being Canadian, this sounds like a Loonie story to me.
I see what you did there.
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Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.
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SkinnyKansasDude said:
Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.
You must be from Kentucky or KSU. Are the sheep still huddling on the other side of the barn?
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@HighEliteMajor That’s not what I said. We were talking about something legal, setting up a parent with a job.
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@SkinnyKansasDude - You said, “Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught.”
Initially, I wonder how the Bill Self is God crowd (now with the focus on his character) will reply, related to your comment. I had always used the “Bill Self is God” phrase related to his basketball decision making – how many simply felt his decision-making is/was beyond even discussion. Always gives me a chuckle thinking back on the irrational hysterics.
You make a very good point. If he’s cheating on his wife, he’ll cheat elsewhere. I should have been smarter.
Look, he’s off the pedestal in my eyes now. That ship has sailed. I was naïve and stupid.
And no, Bill Self is not a “genius.” He’s a basketball genius.
But your last statement, “I’m just mad we got caught”, is your opinion. I understand. I personally think that this sort of mentality is disgusting. It’s disgusting to me on many levels. I can’t imagine a day when character and integrity are not important to me.
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@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
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Aren’t we all guilty?
We all have come to realize that college sports has an architecture that supports payoffs and other dirty play. We’ve all either slammed people like Calipari (or read the slams and laughed). Yet we allowed ourselves to buy into the fairytale that Kansas is different. Kansas and Self were just so superior we could win over top recruits with our finesse versus other schools and entities offering money to kids and their families who have very little.
I haven’t read anything here that is shocking to me. I don’t like it. But I try to not think about it and I focus on young athletes out there playing with their hearts.
I do have to admit that I am disappointed in Self and Company for ever having direct contact with any of these shoe people. Just how much of this communication was even necessary? How did they think these communications would be seen as harmless by the public (and maybe the NCAA). Why gamble that?
I’m pretty sure most of the payoffs in college sports has gone undetected by the public and media.
This all reminds me of the issue with marijuana. Look at our society change now and suddenly it’s no big deal to be a user because of the news that so many people are users… probably even Sanjay Gupta. This should be the moment in college sports where it is addressed that most athletic programs (if not all) tolerate behavior around them that lets things happen, including prized athletes receiving subsidized educations for their sports efforts!
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she’s paid $120,000 per year. That’s not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.
I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?
If the job doesn’t grossly overpay for the work being done, then it’s fine.
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But like @mayjay said I don’t think she was interested in working.
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@BShark not sure a bank would hire her?
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It is disappointing… Dammit. It just is. Even though I could probably say I’ve had the assumption everything isn’t above board for years… There have been some things that one could argue made it look as though “above board” was at least the goal of the staff. The sitting of Cliff, Selby, DJ, Preston. Idk…
Where do we go from here? Who knows. I don’t think the university is firing a hall of fame coach no matter the outcome here minus an indictment perhaps. Can’t say I’d even want that outcome. Although, I must say if we have been buying recruits all along we really haven’t been getting out money’s worth with 1 NC to show for that… Hope that’s not the case. But is that just as naive as believing it doesn’t in fact go on everywhere? Including here apparently…
Integrity is not a tricky business. People just like to make it gray to justify their own actions. It’s that simple. For instance, and I’ve said this for years, nobody comes home after the game and talks about how the refs jobbed the other team. Right? No. Fans just come home happy they won and don’t care why. Now if you’re team gets jobbed by the refs and they lose then it’s all that’s talked about by fans. In the same manner that if this was UK/calipari most KU fans as well as the rest of the country would be allover it like white on rice. That slimeball!!! I knew it all along!!! Yada yada and yada…
But now we have fans that want to change that tone to… “Well, there’s really not a dollar amount discussed”. “There’s really not a smoking gun”. “Our coaches really didn’t know”. “As long as we don’t get caught”. “As long as we don’t get in trouble”. “Everyone’s doing it, it’s been going on for decades”.
Ask yourself these questions. Is it okay with you if Duke and UK cheat and go the FF and win NC’s because of it?
Is it okay with you if your kid illegally(yes for now illegally) smokes pot cause other kids are doing it?
Is it okay with you if your kid cheats on academics but maintains a 4.0 gpa and is successful? Maybe cause other kids get away with it?
Turning a blind eye, pretending it doesn’t happen, or doesn’t matter… SMH…
You really wanna teach your kids that? You really want the university and the program we all love to teach the students and student athletes that? That it’s not only okay but it’s supported by many, to start out their adult life learning how to bend and break the rules?
That’s the message you want to send?
Integrity is not a tricky business. Not a slippery slope. Not a gray area.
@HighEliteMajor applaud you for bringing up the tough topic. The one none of us really wanted to face. Well done sir.
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With all the big boys paying (including Nova) only one team a year gets their moneys worth by that definition. The alternative though is probably not even making the tournament.
I wouldn’t compare this to things that are actually illegal. Then again I don’t think this is bad. Personally, I wouldn’t even call it gray. The kids are paid, and then make more money for the school and shoecos. It’s business. It’s only bad if you think these kids should be exploited, and work for free.
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@BShark no. That’s incorrect. I’m sorry. But it is. This is a totally separate issue. Youre talking about your opinion of how things should be. Not how they are. As of right now. It’s breaking the rules. Not gray. It’s black and white.
So basically you’re saying that if your kid gets busted for smoking pot in Kansas, it’s okay because it should be legal… And probably will be someday. That’s gonna be your defense? Think that works out well in court? Doubt it.
We all have to live by the laws and rules as they are today. Not how they should be in some people’s minds.
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@BShark so about cliff, did we pay for him? I thought his mom sold her soul? Funny how most of these parents that did these illegal payments have ruined their kids lifes. I thought diallo’s problems were academic?
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@cragarhawk Well actually it is different. Parents and or kids are not going to go to jail for taking money. This has been going on since the 60’s and probably before and to my knowledge not one parent and kid has gone to jail. So yea it is different.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yes it was Cliff’s Mom who took a loan. I agree that it sucks that there are parents out there basically pimping their sons, but that’s what the NCAA has created.
Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.
