Are We Into "Cancer" Territory With Newman?
-
As I’ve said elsewhere, its always good to look at culture.
And pot could be a driver, but I’m betting it is not.
I think players like Vick and Malik that have come so far, just wouldn’t let pot come between them and a shot at the NBA. And if they were letting pot get the better of them, my hunch is that Self would simply dismiss, or cryo-ice them.
See my other posts above and elsewhere, but to the point, I’m arguing Vick just doesn’t have the wheels to go anymore, maybe told Self so, and Self is maybe trying to taper him down to ease the tendonitis by March, but still needing to use him some because they are so shorthanded.
In turn, Self’s retooling to build a team that can find a way to win without the treys dropping, so that he can play it either way come March. One game in six even a hot outside shooting team has an off game. This KU team has the guns to win it all if it gets hot. But it needs to be able to get through that one off game in six that even a hot shooting team has.
I am out on a limb here.
No one else seems to see it as I do.
But its how I see it.
-
Ralster said:
@HighEliteMajor Very interesting read. And we wonder if Vick is aligned with Malik somehow, as his play stinks worse than Newman’s.
You always wonder about players who directly said (Doke) or who’s parent directly said (Malik’s dad) that they “will only play 1 year”. In my opinion that’s a bold prediction. So they gave us a great clue as to their working mindset—how can it not be me-first…unless they realize & learn where their own game is at, and show a little humility.
Take a lesson from Trae Young, who is all about his team, and whose dad said he may well stay longer than a year, depending on what he’s got to learn, & how it goes (I got no issue with that open-minded statement, be it for public consumption or not). At least play the part (of a team). The sad fact is Self’s play style needs all its role players and pieces, with most starters being multidimensional. But if we dont perform our jobs, the team breaks down.
PHOF even though its a little different than my take. Way to bring it.
-
@HighEliteMajor Just saw this thread now. Interesting inquiry into some of the intangibles that go into the concept of being a team.
One answer to a question you asked: a couple of games after JB brought up the interaction, or lack thereof, between Svi and Newman, there was a major chest bump between the two right after one fed the other for a bucket during a loud run KU was making. I recall it because I planned on rewatching it and finding the time it happened, and I thought about posting it because of JB’s observation. But I didn’t do it right away, we started a kitchen renov, and other things happened.
That is the only one I recall, though, and it may be meaningless in the big picture.
-
Actually… I am hopeful it is just a pot problem. That can be a much easier fix than most problems. It doesn’t have the same addiction characteristics like most drugs so we have a better chance of cleaning this up.
How do we explain such a loss in drive? I’ve never seen a Kansas team with such little drive. Currently… pull out Devonte and Mitch and we wouldn’t see any drive.
I can’t see how player fights would cause players to stop performing and going for their NBA goals. Pot will do that while keeping the players while in the illusion they still have drive.
-
@mayjay Malik led the team in assists. I don’t see it.
-
This is not the question to ask. This is the most unproductive question for a team that is struggling to produce wins at this point.
Your question is how should HOFCBS fix the problem. Sitting Newman is not an option. We are short and I think you let them play at this point and hope it clicks. It’s too late to start the chemistry crap or blame game.
Let’s not create more questions. We have more questions than we do answers.
-
In fairness, Coach Self started the chemistry discussion but we all know it would end in a nanosecond if this team could just string together some much needed wins.
-
In his previous press conference Coach Self indicated that KU did not have enough players to replace all the starters he wanted to replace so Lightfoot was it…or words to that effect.
-
@JayHawkFanToo he didn’t say cancer
-
“We were obviously better three weeks ago than we’re playing right now." ~Coach Self
Three weeks corresponds to the departure of Preston. Could be coincidental or the team could be missing his contribution at practices.
-
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@JayHawkFanToo he didn’t say cancer
Not that I recall; pretty sure I would remember if he did.
-
@Buster-1926 when Preston signed, coleby simply left because he wanted more time. The other guy? I don’t know, I’m guessing he was in way over his head and getting beat up in practice. In more ways than one
? Jk. Preston killed us and himself.
-
I agree with you 100%. With Preston playing to expectations KU is a legitimate top 5 team and strong Final Four candidate.
-
Great thread, enjoying everyone’s perspectives here. I was down on the team, & vented a couple of weeks ago…(like many royalty fans may be rt about now), but with this downward slide, its time to think macro, and analytically about what we may know, & speculatively about what we don’t know, that could be causing such poor performances.
As chances for #14 get dimmer, we naturally wonder about why…and question the behind the scenes stuff.
Regarding @drgnslayr’s theory about marijuana, I hope that’s not it. My 19 yr old son told me he thinks half his h.s. class was into pot, which I found astonishing. We wont discuss my fixed beliefs on pot x30yrs, as that’s not why we’re here…BUT Im very curious if BGreene was/is close with any current KU players…& if his plight is affecting those friends of his, which is natural.
Team chemistry is an ominous revelation by Self. Last time we had that, it was Carl Henry’s manipulation of his son’s and attempted it on Self, who made the most incredibly polarizing no-holds-barred comment Ive ever heard of him making. That team was a 2nd round bounce by UNI, a nobody/who-dat?-team. We speculated alot back then about the various angles, and there were many.
Why cant high-D1 athletes get it, when it comes to Self’s system? There’s enough years of examples to pave the way…didn’t Frank set the best example for most of these guys??
It requires work, why fight it? No player is bigger than KU ball.
-
Regarding hurting NBA chances with pot use…I believe BG did that. And I speculate & wonder if that was part of Bragg’s problem?
As far as Im concerned, any known factors affecting play & motivation simply need to be eliminated. For every kid fixated on recreational pot & trying to have work ethic to improve his high-D1 game (cancels out,eh?)…there’s 2 more athletes out there who dont use. But then when your Asst.Coach got busted for same few yrs back, & also one of your recent players (BG), maybe there’s more to this angle than I wish there was?
And this is but ONE angle to speculate about…
-
Unfortunately the Baylor game was one of the only games this year I did not DVR so unfortunately I can’t go back and watch the interaction referred to in the OP. Is anyone tech savvy enough to find a way to post it here so we can all see it? Without actually seeing it, it would be tough for me to comment on it but will try. The pot thing scares me a ton and do think it could be a huge factor in some of the players’ actions. I saw it happen to teammates of mine in college. I’ve seen guys a semester away from graduating choose weed over going to class and getting the last few credits needed to graduate. Vick sticks out like a sore thumb to me and it definitely seems like there is something extra curricular going on. It may not be weed but it very well could be. Who is Vick’s roomate? Or Newmans? Does anyone know? I wonder if there is anything we can deduce from that.
For what its worth, I recall hearing that DG and Newman were becoming pretty tight last year and some were thinking that it might be enough to lure DG back for his senior season. It would mean there was a change of events if the speculation in prior posts that DG is on “Team Self/Jayhawks” and Newman is on “Team Selfish” is correct.
Lastly, nobody has mentioned it but another piece of info that may be applicable to the whole picture is the apparent change in recruiting that we’ve seen over the last few weeks. We now have Agbaji signed up for next year and still pushing hard for Langford. It seems like Self has no doubt there will be spots for both. To me, it sounds like no Vick and no Newman next year which ties into a lot of the posts made in this thread.
-
CRH107 said:
“We were obviously better three weeks ago than we’re playing right now." ~Coach Self
Three weeks corresponds to the departure of Preston. Could be coincidental or the team could be missing his contribution at practices.
This is a really intriguing connection. Self kept selling the high probability Preston would be cleared and it didn’t happen. Maybe the team lost faith. Hmmm.
-
Basketball players know hoops. There is a possibility that once Preston left, guys on this team simply realized that they are outgunned and outmanned this season.
As long as Preston was here, there was hope that the cavalry was coming. That’s not true anymore. Maybe they win the conference, but this team is flawed. We have been discussing the issues for weeks. Its not like the players are ignorant to that. They know this roster has holes. They know Silvio isn’t ready.
And perhaps that has trickled into bad habits and poor attitude. We aren’t used to having a definite ceiling on a team, but this squad has a ceiling.
There’s just not enough here to dream of a Final Four. And I think for some of the players, that’s affecting them.
-
I agree and I think part of that is Self’s fault for getting people’s hopes up, at least until the end. Once it kept dragging on for over a month, the writing was on the wall. Maybe it has affected them, maybe it hasnt. Wouldnt surprise me if it has.
Buster, that is exactly what I said on another thread. No sense of urgency, hustle or smart play. Basically zero. No excuses for getting outhustled and out rebounded. Just pathetic to have that happen game after game. Like I said before, I’m ready for a new batch of players, ones that will hopefully see how important rebounding and playing defense are, because the current bunch doesn’t give a crap about fundamentals it seems.
-
@Buster-1926 I guess I missed all the smiling crap. What I do see is lack of a 5 man that can stay on the floor to score and rebound.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 he regularly hurts the team with his silly fouls. His second foul in the first half was just a head scratcher. Hopefully it will be better at that next season.
-
@HawkChamp I don’t think he likes it here. Gut feeling
-
REEFER MADNESS - Originally financed by a church group under the title Tell Your Children, the film Reefer Madness was a 1936 American propaganda film revolving around the melodramatic events that ensue when high school students are lured by pushers to try marijuana—from a hit and run accident, to manslaughter, suicide, attempted rape, hallucinations, and descent into madness due to marijuana addiction.
As of October 2017, 64% of all Americans say pot use should be made legal.
If any of the guys are smoking, you can bet they did not just pick it up recently. So any good games and HS highlights you watched of them were also while they were smoking. And if Self really thought it was an issue, $10 buys you an accurate drug test kit and he could put a quick end to it.
And just for fun…On June 12, 1970, Pirates pitcher Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter despite being high as a kite on lysergic acid diethylamide, otherwise known as acid. Facing the Padres at the old San Diego Stadium, Ellis took the mound having dropped acid earlier that day and blanked the Friars. It was the first and only no-hitter of Ellis’ career.
Am I advocating pot, acid, alcohol or tobacco use by KU athletes? Of course not, those all impair your performance. But blaming our current issues on pot… well that seems like something out of 1936 propaganda film to me.
-
Very compelling post. I see nothing to disagree with after Saturday. If Effort has to be taught this late in the season there isn’t much hope for what comes next.
Tuesday will be a gigantic “gut check” game. We’ve been spoiled at KU for so many years about being able to look past a single game, however the fragile position we are in currently makes this the biggest game of the season. A loss certainly would seem crippling to the short term goals (Big-12 title) and long term goals (NCAA Tourney).
Do you think that if Newman is an issue, why does he play? Doesn’t this fall back on our leader in charge? If we have guys that are not doing their job why play them? The easy answer is we have no depth, we have to field a team. It doesn’t seem as if the minor punishments (losing starting spot) have had any effect on Malik or Vick… So is Self ready to take the next step with the issues? I guess we’ll see.
-
@mayjay You must be the KU version of “Mythbusters”. You just blew up a narrative. Boom!
-
@RockkChalkk They said they were looking for 3 to 4 guards for next year before the season started. Nothing has changed.
-
@RockkChalkk @KUSTEVE The staff is looking at Tevian Jones too. I would say the staff knows there are going to be 2 spots (well 1 with Ochai on board now) available. Jones is a high upside athletic wing.
@Crimsonorblue22 Doke? I’ve not heard that.
-
Hey, its just weird to see our guys get left standing still by some quick crossover—on a recurring basis. Are other guards really that much quicker? The crux of the problem is unable to get defensive stops. And a lot of that comes from within…mindset, pride, & honed technique.
Are UVa’s athletes better than ours? (no). Is their coach better than ours? (no)
-
@Ralster Eh, maybe UVA is more athletic, I haven’t watched them enough to tell you. What I can tell you is Graham and Svi are not that athletic for the P5 level. It’s a big part of why Graham was ranked where he was and isn’t already in the NBA considering his jump shot. I like Graham and Svi a lot, but as we are finding out, they are more cogs than players you want being top players on your team.
Vick is athletic but who knows where his mind is at right now?
We don’t have much in the post after Doke.
The biggest part of all of this is no depth. We saw it for years with teams like Iowa State. It’s tough when you only play 7 guys but it is even further exacerbated by having only two post players and God bless him but one of them is Mitch.
It’s also pretty hard to defend well playing this style of ball without the right (special) pieces. Josh covered up a lot of things last year.
How different would this team be with another legit big? Not even saying Preston was the answer, but he would have helped. Imagine this team with Ayton. That’s the huge miss.
-
If you don’t think many of the KU players smoke pot throughout the years you are misled. Pierce, Chalmers, Arthur are the biggest stars of recent memory, but many a roll player has also partaken. I had a roommate who was a pothead and one of Roy’s boys (Nick) used to sell him pot whenever one of Terry Allen’s guys wouldn’t. I’d be more surprised if the team was 100% clean.
We can’t blame this solely on pot. The guys have to own it. It’s a few individuals lack of effort that is killing the team D. I never doubted Chalmers will to win. Pierce gave it his all. No Arthur, no Championship. This crop of guys just need to buy into the team and stop worrying about their personal stats/pro potiental as that stuff will take care of itself.
-
I have zero issue, absolutely none with players smoking marijuana.
-
@dylans I had a whole bunch of friends that got stoned with 3 or 4 players many times at Jayhawk Towers back in the day. I find it hilarious that we have a really bad game on the road, and all of a sudden, we randomly call out a player as a 'cancer" because he didn’t properly greet another player’s gesture ( although they did bump torsos two minutes later), and now we’re openly wondering if the whole team is on drugs. Friends like us- who needs enemies?
-
I don’t get that vibe from Doke at all. Weird.
-
Also, if we’re talking about recurring themes, lets look at this phenomenon that seems to stick itself to these McDAAs/OAD-wannabes, this whole saga upon saga of will he leave early, just how early/when?..Which segues directly into needing to put up/show stats.
Half of these stupid, assinine sagas involving the McDs is if they’re even frickin eligible to play (Selby, Cliff, Diallo, Preston). Josh Jackson was the best OAD (in a KU uniform), because he played with a fire that equalled Frank’s, and it translated to almost every game he played in. He made his team better & he could even run the team with his court vision. But Josh Jackson is the exception to my point.
Ive about had it with Self diving down the rabbit hole, regarding that somewhat blind philosophy of “you get the highest rated recruits you can”, investing in the OAD media circus, and the kids’ psyche that comes with it. Why? Because Im just mentally comparing what WE ACTUALLY GET from those guys—compared to what we get from guys like DG and FM3, who absolutely play their ass off, chip on shoulder, something to prove, and 200% appreciative of the chance given to them. I’d include any McD that stayed for multiple years to work on their game, showing some humility to accept new challenges. (Rush, Arthur, Chalmers, Sherron, Ellis, Selden). I’ll include Malik in that group if he shows/plays/improves like our multiyear McDs did.
Its not like DG and FM3 were bench projects without talent…both were immediately playable as impact freshmen. BMac very similar after he got shafted by NCAA.
What did we say about KUs nonMcD 2012 NC runner up team? They played with heart, & they never quit, & were just as athletic as any other KU roster.
So, the questions for my fave college coach of all time (Self) are: How many McDs does Tony Bennett have on UVa’s 30win rosters? You still like defensive execution? Are you in a McD-ego contest vs Calipari, because KY is struggling mightily with me-first play (with Cal complaining publicly) from their golden collection of McDs—where are they ranked? Are ya ready to go back to coaching your exemplary system to a group of kids who’ll actually listen? Who actually give a damn? What is wrong, Bill, with pipelining a ton of 4star bigs, wings, guards, especially for YOUR system?
I guarantee these questions don’t sting as bad as the recent KU performances have stung us. This isnt 1-loss or 2-loss bitchin’—no, it’s actually seeing 15yrs of SelfBall, with all levels of recruits trying to learn & execute it, & with rare exceptions in both directions, recognizing what type of player thrives in it. The type of player who comes without extraneous, distracting pretensions or eligibility nonsense.
And this isnt to condemn the current team, but throw in a couple of chemistry issues, an attitude issue, and an eligibility issue…and we see what we get.
Analytically, to my SelfSystem lens, this team is several “shining moments” now on film, showing exactly what happens when the paramount rules of Self’s system are broken 1 by 1: high%looks in the paint, rebound margin, steals, and opponents FG% (make the other guy ugly possessions), & get to line (foul out opponents).
Understand this & you’ll understand where all those blowout KU wins went, and how those got created in yrs past by all the little battles of attrition by the time you get to middle of 4th period.
You can take a highlighter to the statsheet, in a very Brad Stevens sort of way, and precisely show, by subtraction of performance in just a few areas, how we simply dont measure up to past KU squads. Of course, Self figured this stuff out 18 yrs ago when he was still at Tulsa!
-
KUSTEVE said:
@dylans I had a whole bunch of friends that got stoned with 3 or 4 players many times at Jayhawk Towers back in the day. I find it hilarious that we have a really bad game on the road, and all of a sudden, we randomly call out a player as a 'cancer" because he didn’t properly greet another player’s gesture ( although they did bump torsos two minutes later), and now we’re openly wondering if the whole team is on drugs. Friends like us- who needs enemies?
It’s not random when the head coach starts calling him out in the post-game. He didn’t use the word ‘cancer’ however he certainly used Malik and opened the can of worms. This is more then an exchange (which I’ve yet to see for myself to judge).
I’m not buying the drug thing until there’s some evidence to suggest otherwise.
-
@dylans ha, funny thought: there’s role players (KU has some)…and roll players as in what kind of paper u using to roll that (KU may have a bag-o-dudes like that too). (laughter)
-
Defense requires an effort commitment. That’s why very few teams are really good defensively. You have to have an effort commitment from every single guy on the roster that they will defend for every second they are on the floor. That’s why the best defensive teams sometimes just disappear offensively. They pour almost every ounce of energy into that end.
Four of the best defensive teams in the country are Cincinnati, Virginia, Texas Tech and Michigan State (maybe the four best when considering stats, opponents and overall defensive talent). Offensively, Michigan State is great - they rank 5th in the country in effective FG%. The other three…well, they win because they are so good defensively. Virginia ranks 95th in eFG%. Texas Tech ranks 98th. Cincinnati ranks 133rd. Those are clearly not great rankings, but they are so tough defensively, as long as they score every now and then, they can win.
KU does not have the depth on this year’s team to do that. They can be above average, but not elite. Problem is, because of the reliance on perimeter shooting, if KU goes cold, they have to be elite defensively.
-
@Ralster Self might be close to done with it too after Preston. He very well knew Selby, Cliff, Diallo and Preston were at risk to never play for KU when he signed them. And it finally REALLY bit him with Preston. We’ve seen now the staff willing to take McCormack early (I know his ranking is fairly high now, but he is the kind of center we have shied away from in the past) and grabbing Agbaji shows that Self seems willing to take guys he knows will be here for 3-4+ years and develop. Both of these players are really nice fits for Self too, imo. It’s so easy to just focus on rankings and not fit, and I think the staff has done a good job getting away from it in this last recruiting class.
-
I definitely don’t want to give the impression I believe some of our guys are regular pot users. That makes it a witch hunt. I kept off mentioning this until there was at least one other idea out there examining something else of equal “theory value.” I’m comparing my idea to the idea that our guys have a feud going on.
Most of my comments were addressing the general world we live in. I don’t have a problem with people using pot. Our country seems to “grow greener” every year, not only in politics (laws) but in our general culture, cutting across just about every cultural area. But I do have a problem with anyone not meeting their responsibilities. Our players are representatives of the university through their athletic endeavors. Pot use is currently illegal in Kansas. Players shouldn’t be breaking the law while representing the university. And Coach Self should clearly let recruits know that Kansas will not tolerate illegal drug use of any kind.
-
I believe all players get tested going into the NCAA tourney FYI…
There definitely seems to be issues going on. Whatever they are, this is the worst possible time to be having them.
Our shooting numbers have started to creep down. Guys are missing open shots, making easy shots harder then necessary, missing close range shots. Scoring hasn’t been as easy as it was earlier in the year. Either teams are scouting us well and executing or KU as a team is just under-performing. I think this team has had a “make shot mentality”. We do really well when guys are producing and when they don’t our weaknesses become very noticeable
-
(this not aimed at BShark personally but making a logic point in general). Sorry, just not logical to oversimplify it with an absolute “zero” statement. People can believe whatever you want, but where’s the counterbalance to the examples of pot-smoking players who could still play at a high level (Rush, Chalmers, Arthur), vs the players that it may indeed affect their grades, practice gym work ethic, or simply their attitude to be able to give a damn.
Come on, man, if anybody knows anything about any drug, they should admit it can affect different people differently! So give me the list of guys who played for KU that it DID affect negatively? But I doubt one may offer that, right?
Hey, I think Colorado is showing just how much $$ can be made off legalized pot, but you know, that’s not what this thread is for, really. Its about what statistical areas our team needs major improvements in & what our guys (all of them) are going to do about it? Stay focused. Do our guys have focus? Im not pretending to know which guys are affected by which possible issues, I’d just like to see they can statistically handle Bill Self’s business, something the team is not doing right now.
-
@BShark Completely agree about a subtle shift in recruiting, we’ll see what happens.
-
@Ralster I know that just like alcohol, it effects people differently. I just don’t care if our players are doing it.
Dotson and Grimes are pretty good fits too and have the side benefit of being highly ranked. Self has had success with similar guards. Grimes just needs to be okay with not being a PG, that is the one hang-up I can see out of this class.
-
I started following Kansas basketball in the 60s. We have had a few bad teams in there over the years.
I’ve never seen one of our teams play with such poor intensity (in all those years) than what this team has shown us lately.
Most games now, we don’t even have a situation where one of our players dives on the court for a ball.
In the past few games, I started falling asleep during the games and I finally started to just skip to the end of games (DVR), just to see the outcome. I just can’t watch it.
-
@Buster-1926 Did Doke tell you he didn’t want to be here? Are you the proverbial mouse in the pocket?
-
Pot use impacts ever person differently. But I just can’t see the argument for it helping (or not impacting) where I can easily see how it could be detrimental to performance.
And the bad thing with pot… it stays in your system for at least a month. The effects will be in place that long (to some degree). And if there is continual use, the effects will probably become more intense over time because of the buildup in THC in the bloodstream.
-
It hasn’t been pretty I agree. The first half against Baylor and in a lot of games lately has been discouraging. Its up to our HOF coach to figure it out at this point. Things either turn around tomm night or get worse…
-
@BeddieKU23 He’s called out Frank before. Devonte, too. He called out Tyshawn practically every game for 2 years. He said the team couldn’t beat the Topeka YMCA a few years back. Newman may very well be a scourge to all mankind as we know it, or he might’ve missed some defensive assignments, and his coach sent a message.He had 5 assists the 2nd half, so maybe the benching helped.
-
@KUSTEVE Self calls out players he thinks have something. It’s his way of trying to get it out of them when he feels it is needed*. Honestly I would be more worried about a player really struggling if Self didn’t call them out.
*Note how he handled Perry differently, because that’s not what Perry needed.
-
