Recruiting Thread
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Jayballer54 I’m with @BeddieKU23 on this. While Moore could get the nod a few games early, I think the talent difference between he and Moore is more than Grimes perhaps Vick/Newman. But it sounds like we all are expecting a lot from the freshman.
Try this … If Vick and Newman are gone, and no Langford, could Moore, Dotson and Grimes all start? Lots of ball handling there.
Oh I agree for sure, and I also agree with what was said, what I was saying that for the 1st few games to start the season you will more likely then not see Moor get the start. I have no doubt it won’t take long for Devon to take hi spot - -Been a big Dotson fan from the get go.
Ya your right I think there is a lot being expected - - I just hope not TO MUCH. pretty easy to expect to much too early.- -no mater the talent - -they are still Freshmen - gonna take a period to adjust no matter what. - -Look at the talent Kentucky has this year with their Freshmen - but still I agree with you 100%
Ya that would be some ball handling for sure - -yet I hope it doesn’t out like that , hopefully Vick and or Langford will be here - -at least one or the other- - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I respectfully disagree. I would not be surprised to see Moore start at PG until Dotson gets acclimated.
Ah. I probably wasn’t clear. I was assuming in that case Newman would be back and start at PG, sharing duties with Grimes.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I respectfully disagree. I would not be surprised to see Moore start at PG until Dotson gets acclimated.
Moore isn’t quite Cunliffe but I don’t think he is a guy that ever starts in an ideal world. He just isn’t all that good.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Jayballer54 I’m with @BeddieKU23 on this. While Moore could get the nod a few games early, I think the talent difference between he and Moore is more than Grimes perhaps Vick/Newman. But it sounds like we all are expecting a lot from the freshman.
Try this … If Vick and Newman are gone, and no Langford, could Moore, Dotson and Grimes all start? Lots of ball handling there.
I think Self would go with Dotson, Grimes and Garrett. I hope it doesn’t come to this though.
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@BShark it shouldn’t. Heard today that Newman has at least expressed interest in coming back, as to tell the staff not to give away his spot. What a coup that would be!
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BeddieKU23 said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@Jayballer54 I’m with @BeddieKU23 on this. While Moore could get the nod a few games early, I think the talent difference between he and Moore is more than Grimes perhaps Vick/Newman. But it sounds like we all are expecting a lot from the freshman.
If Dotson wasn’t the starter at PG to start the season I think it would be Grimes that beats him out. Nothing against Charlie, I just don’t think he’s a point guard yet. He’s an option if we need it and somehow Devon or Quentin was behind Self’s learning curve or he wanted to send a message to them. I’m still kind of puzzled at the Moore signing with how we recruited over him. Charlie has some Frank scoring ability in him and hopefully can become more Nic Moore or Sr Mason later in his career for us.
I know the staff did an unbelievable job establishing relationships with Devon & Quentin but let’s be real, Self doesn’t land 2 McDonald’s All American’s without giving them some kind of promise of playing time. Both of those recruitment’s were contentious and they could have gone somewhere else to play 30 minutes a game.
Try this … If Vick and Newman are gone, and no Langford, could Moore, Dotson and Grimes all start? Lots of ball handling there.
Ouch, small lineup but certainly not out of the realm of possibility. I think Self would sign another guard in that situation because you can’t see Self having no point guard depth again like he’s dealing with this season.
Remember how Nic Moore didn’t really work out at the university games? Admittedly in a small sample size. This is my worry with Charlie.
Everything I’ve read indicates Self promised pt and starting positions to Dotson and Grimes. Some people aren’t going to believe that and I get it. Obviously if things don’t work out, Self can change the line-up. Initially they will start though.
If no Langford, Vick and Newman I definitely see Self adding another guard (plus hopefully Agbaji). No idea who it would be at this point. Maybe a grad transfer but that could be a tough sell for a grad transfer to come somewhere to be depth. We saw how the stache flaked out in that situation.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
@BShark it shouldn’t. Heard today that Newman has at least expressed interest in coming back, as to tell the staff not to give away his spot. What a coup that would be!
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The doge meme is the best non-KU meme and I’ll fight anyone who says otherwise.
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@FarmerJayhawk looks like my dog when he sees the prairie dogs out my car window, or if I crack the window he can hear them squeaking.
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But yeah Newman coming back would be incredible. He has really turned a corner and I could only imagine him after another off season.
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I’d be stoked. If we get Romeo, that’s a great small rotation.
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Moore had a solid freshman year and has one year learning the system. I am not saying the he will be the starter all season but it would not surprise me if he starts a few games until Dotson is used to playing Division I.
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@JayHawkFanToo I just don’t think he is a good fit, but obviously I could be wrong.
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Newman returning would be more important then Vick as it currently stands.
I’m impressed if Malik is actually telling the staff his interest in returning. He’s definitely matured during his time here.
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I think Charlie will do some good things for KU in time. He’s a scorer and that skill alone will probably have some value next season. His slight frame really scares you in situations but hopefully he’s a competitor and plays hard to compensate for it.
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Ryan Noel does not believe Vick will be back. Interesting
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BShark said:
But yeah Newman coming back would be incredible. He has really turned a corner and I could only imagine him after another off season.
I just don’t see him coming back. I just think at seasons end when it’s all said and done , he is gone. – I don’t think he would relish the idea of backing up Grimes and YES Grimes would start over Newman Freshmen or not - like has been mentioned I think even by you yourself- I think Self has given these Freshman time and I think Grimes is just to much of a stud not to start, & I just don’t feel Newman would be ready for that. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BeddieKU23 Is that based on NBA potential or is that opinion influenced by the latest developments with Vick?
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Hawk8086 said:
@BeddieKU23 Is that based on NBA potential or is that opinion influenced by the latest developments with Vick?
He didn’t elaborate on that line.
If I was to assume, I think he was told Vick wasn’t returning when the season started. That would make sense in the fact that Romeo Langford is considering KU highly but seems to be waiting to make sure (Vick) leaves before announcing his decision. I’m connecting dots, however this could be wrong.
The latest developments certainly could be a factor as well. Jan 1st, Vick is a possible 1st round pick. Feb 1st, Vick has played himself out of both rounds. He’s now been benched twice. I don’t believe Vick’s situation is like Carlton Bragg or Greene for instance where the door was opened for them…
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BeddieKU23 said:
Ryan Noel does not believe Vick will be back. Interesting
Phog post? This move to go to Mitch feels like a long term benefit move and that Vick is done.
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Jayballer54 said:
BShark said:
But yeah Newman coming back would be incredible. He has really turned a corner and I could only imagine him after another off season.
I just don’t see him coming back. I just think at seasons end when it’s all said and done , he is gone. – I don’t think he would relish the idea of backing up Grimes and YES Grimes would start over Newman Freshmen or not - like has been mentioned I think even by you yourself- I think Self has given these Freshman time and I think Grimes is just to much of a stud not to start, & I just don’t feel Newman would be ready for that. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
If Newman stays, I don’t think we get Romeo. I think the starting guards would be Dotson, Newman and Grimes.
Everything I see/read now indicates that Newman is really loving his time here. What a turnaround for this kid. Stay or go, he’s a Jayhawk in my book now.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Ryan Noel does not believe Vick will be back. Interesting
Phog post? This move to go to Mitch feels like a long term benefit move and that Vick is done.
Yeah it was a phog post.
I think as much as its a long term move, its rewarding those who do what Self wants. He clearly would play 4 guards if the 4 guards were all on the same page with their responsibilities. The 4 guard lineup with our roster is still the most effective lineup we can play. Making this move 23 games into the season is a huge risk. But clearly Self is pissed and sending a message
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If this doesn’t wake Vick up I don’t know what will. Or maybe it’s just too late and Vick is gone anyway.
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@BeddieKU23 Quickly reminded of why I haven’t been on the phog in months as soon as I open some threads. I really can’t believe how many people think McCormack is going to start next year. Is it because he is a McDAA? I have no idea.
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Quickly reminded of why I haven’t been on the phog in months as soon as I open some threads. I really can’t believe how many people think McCormack is going to start next year. Is it because he is a McDAA? I have no idea.
I Think McCormack is going to be a very solid player - - a very solid 4 year player. - I don’t think there is any way in hell that he starts next year. - He is going to be a project player , again solid but the first couple of years is going to take time.
One big reason I don’t think he will be is because more and more thinking really that Doke may just be back - -didn’t think this in the beginning but man Doke still has work to do, which in turn makes McCormack a really good back up to Doke - -let De- Sosua possibly back up Lawson at the 4? - yes? - -no? - then allow Mitch to redshirt. - Just don’t see McCormack in any way starting . - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Quickly reminded of why I haven’t been on the phog in months as soon as I open some threads. I really can’t believe how many people think McCormack is going to start next year. Is it because he is a McDAA? I have no idea.
Yeah its hard to read stuff on there.
I hope McCormack finds a way to get some minutes next season. He’s got some low post moves I’m excited to see the staff work with him on. People see Burger Boy, from Oak Hill and assume. Maybe he surprises. I don’t know next years squad is going to have a lot of fresh slates to work with
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@BeddieKU23 I don’t see him getting much run if Doke is back.
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 I don’t see him getting much run if Doke is back.
Agreed he would have a reserve role if Doke comes back. Anxiously awaiting intel on that one
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Quickly reminded of why I haven’t been on the phog in months as soon as I open some threads. I really can’t believe how many people think McCormack is going to start next year. Is it because he is a McDAA? I have no idea.
The Phog is a total dumpster fire almost all the time. Not sure why I even go over there anymore. Anyway, I don’t think Newman and Langford have much impact on each other. I think we slide Newman to PG and start Grimes and Langford with him. Grimes has enough PG skills to play on the ball, and Newman can in a pinch.
I haven’t heard either way whether Vick is gone or not, only that he’s almost certain to declare and get feedback. I could see him showing out at the combine and getting drafted mid-2nd, but the 1st round chatter is toast.
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Agbaji is wing, that offer doesn’t get made at this point without Self knowing either Newman or Vick are leaving. Newman could go to the NBA and Vick could possibly be getting squeezed out of the program. I would also say that offer is a pretty clear sign that Langford is headed elsewhere.
There’s also minimal chance of McCormack starting or even playing relevant minutes next season. He’s someone who the likely best case scenario is the 4th big overall and 3rd in the low post rotation, but the most likely scenario is he’s the 6th big overall and 4th low post big. That doesn’t equal big minutes.
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Agbaji is wing, that offer doesn’t get made at this point without Self knowing either Newman or Vick are leaving. Newman could go to the NBA and Vick could possibly be getting squeezed out of the program. I would also say that offer is a pretty clear sign that Langford is headed elsewhere.
There’s also minimal chance of McCormack starting or even playing relevant minutes next season. He’s someone who the likely best case scenario is the 4th big overall and 3rd in the low post rotation, but the most likely scenario is he’s the 6th big overall and 4th low post big. That doesn’t equal big minutes.
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There is always a way of making room for players. If Langford comes, Vick is gone. And I think at this point, it is in that order.
Self should be telling the Langford family that he will start and to not worry about Vick.
If Langford commits, say goodbye to Vick.
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I also think that if Newman wants to stay and Agbaji wants to come, Cunliffe will get forced out.
I’m not sure how Newman factors in to the Langford decision though. I would think Newman returning would mean no Langford. But if I’m Self, I’m basically begging Langford to come and telling him he is going to get 30 mpg.
In a perfect world where we keep Newman and land Langford:
- PG: Dotson - 28 mpg, Grimes 12 mpg
- SG: Grimes - 20 mpg, Newman 15 mpg, Garrett 5 mpg
- SF: Langford - 30 mpg, Newman 10 mpg
- PF: Lawson - 20 mpg, Lawson/Lightfoot/De Sousa - 20 mpg
- C: Doke - 25 mpg, Lawson, 10 mpg, De Sousa/Lightfoot/Dmac - 5 mpg
Of course someone would have to be ok coming off of the bench in that scenario. And we would really have to buy into the team concept.
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Just a query … given how DeSousa looks, might it be possible that McCormack is better, perhaps more ready to play next fall (at least we shouldn’t assume the opposite)?
Also, @Kcmatt7, good stuff. A few non-astute observations - I see no situation where Newman returns and doesn’t start; I imagine Moore will get back up PG minutes (why do you favor combo guard Grimes there? I’m not a Moore fan, but combo guard tells me ball handling ain’t the priority); I’d be shocked if three freshmen start.
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The Ogbaji offer is smart, he’s a local’ish rising prospect at a position KU may need someone at if things go a certain way. It’s always nice to have your hand in more then one pot in case the top prospect on the board goes somewhere else or there’s more attrition at season’s end then expected, or planned for. This is Self and his staff making sure they don’t get caught empty handed if something happens
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@HighEliteMajor Grimes thinks he is a PG but isn’t. This could be a point of contention. I hope it isn’t though and I like Grimes’s game a lot.
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BeddieKU23 said:
The Ogbaji offer is smart, he’s a local’ish rising prospect at a position KU may need someone at if things go a certain way. It’s always nice to have your hand in more then one pot in case the top prospect on the board goes somewhere else or there’s more attrition at season’s end then expected, or planned for. This is Self and his staff making sure they don’t get caught empty handed if something happens
Local-ish is a good way to put it. Apparently he is from Milwaukee originally. Two of the crystal ball picks to KU are people from Wisconsin so maybe they know something. Probably just assuming though.
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@HighEliteMajor I think, in my dream scenario, Moore wouldn’t play for two reasons. One, Grimes is a PG at the NBA level and has the skillset to play the position. Two, I don’t see a scenario where we have those 4 players, and they don’t play basically all of the backcourt minutes available. No knocks on Moore. I think he will be a fine player and a great backup PG. But in my opinion, those 4 players are going to be so lights out that we can’t afford to have more than 5 minutes a game without having 3 of them on the court at once.
Like I said at the end, someone would have to come off of the bench. I don’t know if it would be Newman, Dotson, Grimes or Langford. But someone would have to.
I also think we will have a unfair bias against De Sousa from this season. He was put in a position to fail. HCBS doesn’t trust Freshmen bigs as is. I don’t know how he would’ve gained any trust in a month and a half. But, I think De Sousa will be ahead of Big Dave just from this semester experience. Learning to compete day in and day out is as hard as anything these guys have to learn. I’ve also watched David play against Vernon Carey. Big Dave is so far away from being able to play against P5 competition. He still has 20 lbs to lose and he needs to learn how to play D without fouling. He is a major project with major upside. But next year isn’t going to be when we see him. At least from what I have seen.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
The Ogbaji offer is smart, he’s a local’ish rising prospect at a position KU may need someone at if things go a certain way. It’s always nice to have your hand in more then one pot in case the top prospect on the board goes somewhere else or there’s more attrition at season’s end then expected, or planned for. This is Self and his staff making sure they don’t get caught empty handed if something happens
Local-ish is a good way to put it. Apparently he is from Milwaukee originally. Two of the crystal ball picks to KU are people from Wisconsin so maybe they know something. Probably just assuming though.
In the last month Ogbaji has been to what 2-3 games, KU has sent assistants to watch his games and then Self went and saw him in person. I think its easy to assume that KU has legitimate interest in him and not just conditionally recruiting him. I’m not ready to connect the dots on what recruiting him means. It sounds as if KU really likes him despite his ranking etc (which I’m sure will go up) now that he’s gotten a slew of Power 5 offers
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He is going to go way up in the rankings for people that care about that kind of thing.
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That’s a good question actually in regards to McCormack. If Doke leaves who’s the 5 next year? Lawson & De Sousa have the size to slide over to that position it looks but neither is your prototypical Center. McCormack is a true Center so in theory maybe he has a leg up there. He’s played against top competition for years whether it was for Oak Hill or his AAU squad so at least we know he’s been exposed to situations where he’s up against some really good players. As @Kcmatt7 mentioned he recently played against Vernon Carey a top 2 2019 prospect and struggled to defend him for the most part. In his defense Carey is probably one of the Top 5-7 HS prospect overall right now. He’d be top 5 in 2018 in my opinion. Dave has come a long ways with his body, athleticism and overall skill level. Just seems like a guy that needs a year to adjust before his impact starts to be felt on a regular basis
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@BeddieKU23 If Carey has to play in college, the team that gets him is in for a real treat. SPECIMEN. He would thrive under Self.
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@Kcmatt7 I get what Grimes wants to be, as @BShark mentions. And I do not doubt for a minute the PG in the NBA thing you state (though at 6’5", that path is available too as a SG). But I think you will agree, when you see “combo guard”, that at least means that ball handling is a work in progress. I recall this same discussion about Selden. I was a big naysayer when it came to Selden at the PG spot, mainly because of ball handling (D-1 ball handling is many steps above anything these guys have seen). But I just don’t know Grimes’ ball handling competence. I’m making some assumptions.
With Self’s love for ball handling, I don’t think it’s far-fetched to think we could see Moore, Dotson, and Grimes together. If Newman/Vick leave, and we whiff on Langford, and grab a four year guy, this seems like a possibility.
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KU might have a good pitch to sell him depending on how the post situation shakes out between now and next season. I know we are not close to his favorite but we are in on him in some capacity. We will see what happens
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 I get what Grimes wants to be, as @BShark mentions. And I do not doubt for a minute the PG in the NBA thing you state (though at 6’5", that path is available too as a SG). But I think you will agree, when you see “combo guard”, that at least means that ball handling is a work in progress. I recall this same discussion about Selden. I was a big naysayer when it came to Selden at the PG spot, mainly because of ball handling (D-1 ball handling is many steps above anything these guys have seen). But I just don’t know Grimes’ ball handling competence. I’m making some assumptions.
With Self’s love for ball handling, I don’t think it’s far-fetched to think we could see Moore, Dotson, and Grimes together. If Newman/Vick leave, and we whiff on Langford, and grab a four year guy, this seems like a possibility.
Grimes is more of a point guard than Selden, but he still isn’t really a point guard. Certainly I think he is capable of being a guard, whereas Selden was really a wing.
Selden kind of bullied his way to the rim in HS. Grimes is shifty with his body control and is willing to pass.
Ryan Noel said a couple scouts used Brandon Roy as a comp for Selden. Wouldn’t be the worst tbh, of course injuries really derailed Roy.
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BeddieKU23 said:
That’s a good question actually in regards to McCormack. If Doke leaves who’s the 5 next year? Lawson & De Sousa have the size to slide over to that position it looks but neither is your prototypical Center. McCormack is a true Center so in theory maybe he has a leg up there. He’s played against top competition for years whether it was for Oak Hill or his AAU squad so at least we know he’s been exposed to situations where he’s up against some really good players. As @Kcmatt7 mentioned he recently played against Vernon Carey a top 2 2019 prospect and struggled to defend him for the most part. In his defense Carey is probably one of the Top 5-7 HS prospect overall right now. He’d be top 5 in 2018 in my opinion. Dave has come a long ways with his body, athleticism and overall skill level. Just seems like a guy that needs a year to adjust before his impact starts to be felt on a regular basis
When has Self ever cared if his low post players are 4’s or 5’s at the college level? KU has had plenty of years where they’ve had what we would consider to be two 4’s starting in the low post. If Doke leaves, the low post will still be just fine with Dedric, DeSousa, and McCormack who are capable low post players.
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I know you mentioned this kid a while back, Tyger Campbell. Committed to UCLA yesterday. A big get for them, 4 year PG who will leave his mark on the Bruins
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BeddieKU23 said:
I know you mentioned this kid a while back, Tyger Campbell. Committed to UCLA yesterday. A big get for them, 4 year PG who will leave his mark on the Bruins
He was a kid I was thinking KU could try to get in on if we missed on Dotson or Grimes.
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If Langford comes, he will be the most talented player on the roster.
If Langford doesn’t come, either Grimes or D. Lawson will be the best player on the roster.
Building out the lineup from there, with Langford, the lineup is probably Dotson, Grimes, Langford, Lawson, Azubuike. Look at that lineup again. That is filthy. And that doesn’t account for Moore, KJ, Mitch, maybe Vick and/or Newman, Cunliffe, McCormack, De Sousa, etc.
As shallow as this team is right now, next season could be equally deep. Even without Langford, we’re still looking at a very deep team with experience, talent, and depth at every position. Azubuike and McCormack at the 5. D. Lawson and Lightfoot at the 4. KJ and Vick at the 3. Malik and Grimes at the 2. Dotson and Moore at the 1. And Sam Cunliffe is on the roster, too. So is Silvio De Sousa. This team is scary deep. Even if Vick, Malik and Azubuike all leave, you still have Dotson, Moore, Grimes, Cunliffe, KJ, Dedric, Mitch, De Sousa, and McCormack (and maybe Langford, too). That’s deeper than this year’s squad, with more talent, too.
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It’s shaping up to be a lot of paper talent.
I would absolutely love to see at least 1 starter return. That way you have someone who’s been through the grind and knows what’s expected. That helps the new guys because they have someone to follow. A returning Nucleus of Doke, Newman or Vick, Lightfoot & Garrett would be ideal.
