Bill Self - cost us the game?
-
The absolute minute Self saw OU employing the poke a Doke strategy, Self should have pulled Doke. We got zero points on four of five possessions, all on the fouls of Udoka. @cragarhawk - You’re right, no player should be permitted to shoot free throws like that. Period. @Kcmatt7 I want to hear Self say that Udoka will never shoot another free throw like that. Coach him.
And for those that say you can’t change mechanics midseason, that’s does not apply here. Doke has no mechanics from the line. There is nothing good about what Doke does from the free throw line. Zero.
-
Like I said on another thread. - -Statement of the decade Self " - -this loss is on me - -I screwed it up " -No shit sherlock. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
HighEliteMajor said:
The absolute minute Self saw OU employing the poke a Doke strategy, Self should have pulled Doke. We got zero points on four of five possessions, all on the fouls of Udoka. @cragarhawk - You’re right, no player should be permitted to shoot free throws like that. Period. @Kcmatt7 I want to hear Self say that Udoka will never shoot another free throw like that. Coach him.
And for those that say you can’t change mechanics midseason, that’s does not apply here. Doke has no mechanics from the line. There is nothing good about what Doke does from the free throw line. Zero.
STILL can’t comprehend WHY he didn’t put Cunliffe in - -go with 5 smalls, ok - so they might score there 2 - but I tell you this, you sure the hell aren’t seeing them just hack away. - -Why couldn’t he put Mitch back in - -I DO NOT get this
-
Self said he thought back to what a former NBA player said when he took a player out - you just told your player that you have no confidence in him at the end of a game - -YA - - and? - he admitted he screwed up - that this is on him - -dam straight it on you.
-
Absolutely on you, Coach Self! What did you think you were going to accomplish? I have never coached (other than academic teams), but I do know you try to put kids in a situation where they can be successful. Deliberately setting them up to fail makes things worse. What effect did this have on the other players? I felt so sorry for Devonte in the interview room. He was taking all the blame. No, Devonte, this is not on you. It is on your Hall of Fame coach–who was solidly out-coached.
-
Free throw comparison: OU shoots 25. Kansas shoots 14, and thats with 6 of them being intentional in the last 4 minutes. Without the hack a doke, it’s 25 FTA to 8 FTA. That’s just ridiculous.
Graham going one for 1-9 sucked, but what was most frustrating was that he seemed to be playing hero ball at times like he had to prove he was better that TY.
Self said post game that he won’t try to change Doke’s mechanics midseason and said he thought Doke’s misses looked better than his previous games misses.
I sensed that Self wasn’t coaching for this Win leaving Doke in there. His post game comments reflected that he may think this could motivate him to improve and come into play down the road.
Either way you look at it, in my opinion, this L is on Self. He said you don’t take your best players out of the game. But you also put your best FT players in the game when the team is intentionally fouling. Just flabbergasted at the way he handled those last 4 minutes.
-
Great move by Self. Let a guy play through his issues. Let him know you have confidence in him, so he can be in the game at the end of a close game in the tourney.
Must have been tough for Self. This is literally the first game I’ve seen him not try to win at all cost for the greater good of the season.
-
This new and improved Hall of Fame coach Self probably would have benched Brady and played EJ more.
-
@DanR LOVE your sarcasm. That crap sounds like me.
For the love of all that is holy, please tell me you are kidding.
Self should be signing autographs for everyone in Norman tonight.
-
@HighEliteMajor tbh, I don’t know if coaching will fix Doke’s free throw problems.
Therefore, this loss is 100% on Self imo.
The assumption that Doke can shoot better from the line is just that. An assumption. He may just never be able to shoot free throws well. He may have just came to the game too late to develop a touch shooting the ball.
-
Here’s what’s worse. Self and staff have known from day one that Doke is a free throw disaster. And this is what we see? Doke shot under 40% last season. What have we been doing since then? What’s even worse, Doke injured his left wrist last season? How much work did not get done on his free throw shooting while he was out? How difficult would it have been to work on and at least gain some semblance of a proper form shot from the line? Unreal.
-
@nuleafjhawk sarcasm? people have been screaming for this for years: Let players play through their issues and learn during games when it counts.
-
@DanR you don’t play through your issues in the last two minutes of a game with a proven 40% success rate when you have 5 other players who double that.
-
Play the best players.
-
@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.
-
@Bwag Of course Self lost this game. Even worse he may have cost us the streak. Instead of 7-1 and in complete control of the conference, we are now going to have to scramble and claw to win it. I am still in disbelief of the way he blew this game. Complete stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and failing each time. And I do not give a damn what excuse he uses for doing it. Build confidence? Bull Sht! Send a message? Bull Sht!! There is absolutely no excuse to take away a hard fought road win from your team. And that is what he did. I wonder what confidence he instilled in his team with that coaching decision??
-
@Big-Clyde52 Yes. We had control of this game. As you say…now we will have to scramble. KSU will be playing us at home to move into a tie for first. Will be a tough game for us to win.
-
@nuleafjhawk In the past, I would agree. I liked Lucas over Diallo (who couldn’t be in position on an inbounds play to save his life). Where’d that get us in the tourney? Loserville.
I’m liking this new coach who lets players screw up in real time and lose games. The Big 12 is meaningless. Final fours and championships are the goal.
-
Big Clyde52 said:
@Bwag Of course Self lost this game. Even worse he may have cost us the streak. Instead of 7-1 and in complete control of the conference, we are now going to have to scramble and claw to win it. I am still in disbelief of the way he blew this game. Complete stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and failing each time. And I do not give a damn what excuse he uses for doing it. Build confidence? Bull Sht! Send a message? Bull Sht!! There is absolutely no excuse to take away a hard fought road win from your team. And that is what he did. I wonder what confidence he instilled in his team with that coaching decision??
+1000
-
DanR said:
@nuleafjhawk In the past, I would agree. I liked Lucas over Diallo (who couldn’t be in position on an inbounds play to save his life). Where’d that get us in the tourney? Loserville.
I’m liking this new coach who lets players screw up in real time and lose games. The Big 12 is meaningless. Final fours and championships are the goal.
If you are hoping for final fours and titles, you are rooting for the wrong program. Self struggles mightily in March.
-
@HawkChamp Right. But that’s because his OLD strategy of trying to win every game instead of developing the best players during the season.
-
Yes, Self cost KU this game. If you want to keep Doke in until you’re in the bonus, that’s fine. Keeping Doke in after that, not fine, especially on a night like tonight when he couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat. Especially considering the defense isn’t a big drop off to Lightfoot and Lightfoot is an 82% FT shooter on the year. Even with a much smaller sample size, Lightfoot is the far better end game player on offense for KU because of his much superior FT shooting.
-
Man O Man, I am usually 98% in favor of Bill Self’s coaching strategy and tactics. But his late gamble in leaving Doke in the game, embarrassing his big man and harnessing the other 4 Jayhawks on the floor…gee whiz, what a miscalculation from a HOF coach! If he pulls another bonehead move like this he is bound to lose the full determination of his squad. Heck, I’m an old retired track coach who knows very little about collegiate basketball; but I saw this debacle unfolding as clear as noontime sunshine. At best, the psychology will push Doke to work on his free throws; at worst, Bill placed the league crown in serious jeopardy. How’s the guy gonna get 4 nights of decent sleep before the next jump ball on Saturday?
-
Is it possible Self was trying to light a fire in Udoka to work on these? There is no other explanation…
-
@DanR Please share with all of us what you are smoking. If you think teams will not continue to do this from here on, you need to take a few days off. It will not matter whether it is in conference play or in the Dance. And Dok will not get much better shooting FT’s with his form. So I guess Coach can just let him work thru his issues and we can just continue to lose games. Now there is a great scheme going forward. NOT!!!
-
Not trying to change Dokes ft mechanics midseason is almost as epic a meltdown as leaving him in the game tonight. Or actually could be a much larger meltdown. I absolutely 100% detest that decision. Maybe the dumbest thing I’ve heard yet. I mean seriously?? Do you think you’re gonna hurt his ft shot so bad that the percentage actually goes down!!! Or say it oh…idk costs us a game!!! He has ZERO mechanics now!!! Gotta be FN kidding me. Teach the kid how to shoot a damn ft…
-
Hey @Big-Clyde52 I doubt we’ll see the same scenario again. Was there some reason why Devonte couldn’t take it right to the rim while Doke was planted in the corner on those four possessions? …I think we can exploit the poke-a-doke strategy better than we did tonight.
-
@DanR This is different. This is free throw shooting. This is not playing through mistakes. Udoka made no mistakes. Udoka is shooting free throws like a deranged 4th grader who needs to be playing the trombone, solely because the KU staff permits it.
-
Bad News: We all agree how and why we lost this game when it was ours for the taking. Good News: We are 6-2 in Big12, at this stage, and that’s probably what most of us thought going into the season. Bad News: In Big12 play, our avg. margin of victory is 4 pts. Our avg. margin on losses, 8 pts.
-
@HighEliteMajor Play the best players, man. Everyone has some weaknesses
-
@HighEliteMajor exactly. The comparison is laughable at minimum.
-
@DanR And just how can we exploit it??? Please tell us. I want to win.
-
Situation dictates who the best player is at that moment. Put your team in the best possible position to win, regardless of how that makes the player feel. You bring in Wade Davis to close the game, not pitch the first 8.
-
You play the best FT shooters in crunch time when the opposing team’s strategy to get back in it, is fouling Doke.
-
@DanR In that situation, Udoka is not the best player. Further, the “weakness” is situationally fatal. And we can see that it just cost us a game. Normally, the play best players is right (heck, nearly all the time). But good grief.
-
@hawkmoon2020 EXACTLY! Please explain that to the people that are trying to smooth this loss over with whipped cream. JEESHH!
-
@Big-Clyde52 Let him play harder and foul out! Unleash the beast.
-
How many timeouts did we have? Could he have switched Mitch and Dok on offense and defense?
-
@DanR Another great scheme!!
-
DanR said:
Hey @Big-Clyde52 I doubt we’ll see the same scenario again. Was there some reason why Devonte couldn’t take it right to the rim while Doke was planted in the corner on those four possessions? …I think we can exploit the poke-a-doke strategy better than we did tonight.
Why wouldn’t opposing teams use the Poke-a-Doke strategy in close games late? OU brought a bench warmer in specifically to foul Doke to put him on the line. They fouled Doke as soon as the ball was brought across half court. This wasn’t a case of OU waiting for Doke to catch the and foul, they were fouling him when he was out on the perimeter doing nothing but standing there.
If I’m A&M’s coach or any other coach and KU has a small lead late, I’m fouling Doke and putting him on the line as much as possible and I’m bringing in a walk on for that specifical purpose.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go. The situation has been exposed for the rest of the season. Every coach in the nation has seen it now.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 should’ve been intentional
-
@HighEliteMajor I have disagreed with the strategy in the past of playing the best players. I thought EJ sucked compared to Brady, and was proven right in the end when he choked against Michigan. But, I’m sold now. Let them learn. Lose some games. Shoulder the responsibility of being the teammate that lost the game because you were lazy in practice and didn’t listen to coaching.
Then, improve in practice, and hopefully be ready for March. If not., fire coach Self.
-
Big Clyde52 said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go. The situation has been exposed for the rest of the season. Every coach in the nation has seen it now.
I think Bill knows this. We were 2 games up, we still have sole possession. Self probably thought, what the heck, we always win close games, hopefully Dok can come through and get some confidence.
What I HOPE Bill knows is that instead of saying afterwards that he (Self) goofed up, he should be saying that Dok needs to learn to make free throws. Otherwise he’s going back on his vote of confidence.
-
@chriz I simply don’t get the “vote of confidence” point. Doke not making FTs is NOT for lack of confidence. It is that he has probably the worst FT shooting “technique” of any college or pro player I’ve ever seen. Definitely worse than Shaq. He can have all the confidence in the world - he ain’t making more than 50% of his attempts shooting them the way he does…
-
Listening to Self in the post game interview, it was probably not Doke’s confidence on the line tonight.
Guess you have to see what you’ve got to work with in crunch time at some point.
-
The idea that you can’t work on changing his shot at this point in season is just foolish. What’s he gonna do go 0-7? Big deal. From the sound of it the strategy isnt gonna change moving forward…
So… Same strategy, and same mechanics=??? I guess alot more “This is on me, I screwed up”
-
So what about Vick, speaking about hurting our game tonight?
-
@DanR For sure we can exploit it. Doke never comes out and we feed him the ball til we empty their bench. Lon didn’t out coach Self, Self stopped coaching.How does this weigh on Doke? If Doke starts launching 3’s from half court is Bill going to leave him in? If Doke tries to bring the ball up the court against a press, is that alright?
-
@DanR Fair enough. Couldn’t he have seen that at any point up and until this game. If not, how about the first time they poked Doke? The second time? The third time? What, not even after the fifth time?
Stipulated that we need Doke on the floor as much of the game as possible. But in this game, Mitch had about the same slash line in 5 fewer minutes. More importantly, he is 14-17 from the FT line this year. I get you want to have your best players on the floor. But, in obvious fouling situations, a 40% FT shooter is not one of your best players.
