Bill Self - cost us the game?
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@HighEliteMajor tbh, I don’t know if coaching will fix Doke’s free throw problems.
Therefore, this loss is 100% on Self imo.
The assumption that Doke can shoot better from the line is just that. An assumption. He may just never be able to shoot free throws well. He may have just came to the game too late to develop a touch shooting the ball.
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Here’s what’s worse. Self and staff have known from day one that Doke is a free throw disaster. And this is what we see? Doke shot under 40% last season. What have we been doing since then? What’s even worse, Doke injured his left wrist last season? How much work did not get done on his free throw shooting while he was out? How difficult would it have been to work on and at least gain some semblance of a proper form shot from the line? Unreal.
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@nuleafjhawk sarcasm? people have been screaming for this for years: Let players play through their issues and learn during games when it counts.
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@DanR you don’t play through your issues in the last two minutes of a game with a proven 40% success rate when you have 5 other players who double that.
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Play the best players.
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@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.
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@Bwag Of course Self lost this game. Even worse he may have cost us the streak. Instead of 7-1 and in complete control of the conference, we are now going to have to scramble and claw to win it. I am still in disbelief of the way he blew this game. Complete stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and failing each time. And I do not give a damn what excuse he uses for doing it. Build confidence? Bull Sht! Send a message? Bull Sht!! There is absolutely no excuse to take away a hard fought road win from your team. And that is what he did. I wonder what confidence he instilled in his team with that coaching decision??
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@Big-Clyde52 Yes. We had control of this game. As you say…now we will have to scramble. KSU will be playing us at home to move into a tie for first. Will be a tough game for us to win.
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@nuleafjhawk In the past, I would agree. I liked Lucas over Diallo (who couldn’t be in position on an inbounds play to save his life). Where’d that get us in the tourney? Loserville.
I’m liking this new coach who lets players screw up in real time and lose games. The Big 12 is meaningless. Final fours and championships are the goal.
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Big Clyde52 said:
@Bwag Of course Self lost this game. Even worse he may have cost us the streak. Instead of 7-1 and in complete control of the conference, we are now going to have to scramble and claw to win it. I am still in disbelief of the way he blew this game. Complete stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and failing each time. And I do not give a damn what excuse he uses for doing it. Build confidence? Bull Sht! Send a message? Bull Sht!! There is absolutely no excuse to take away a hard fought road win from your team. And that is what he did. I wonder what confidence he instilled in his team with that coaching decision??
+1000
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DanR said:
@nuleafjhawk In the past, I would agree. I liked Lucas over Diallo (who couldn’t be in position on an inbounds play to save his life). Where’d that get us in the tourney? Loserville.
I’m liking this new coach who lets players screw up in real time and lose games. The Big 12 is meaningless. Final fours and championships are the goal.
If you are hoping for final fours and titles, you are rooting for the wrong program. Self struggles mightily in March.
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@HawkChamp Right. But that’s because his OLD strategy of trying to win every game instead of developing the best players during the season.
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Yes, Self cost KU this game. If you want to keep Doke in until you’re in the bonus, that’s fine. Keeping Doke in after that, not fine, especially on a night like tonight when he couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat. Especially considering the defense isn’t a big drop off to Lightfoot and Lightfoot is an 82% FT shooter on the year. Even with a much smaller sample size, Lightfoot is the far better end game player on offense for KU because of his much superior FT shooting.
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Man O Man, I am usually 98% in favor of Bill Self’s coaching strategy and tactics. But his late gamble in leaving Doke in the game, embarrassing his big man and harnessing the other 4 Jayhawks on the floor…gee whiz, what a miscalculation from a HOF coach! If he pulls another bonehead move like this he is bound to lose the full determination of his squad. Heck, I’m an old retired track coach who knows very little about collegiate basketball; but I saw this debacle unfolding as clear as noontime sunshine. At best, the psychology will push Doke to work on his free throws; at worst, Bill placed the league crown in serious jeopardy. How’s the guy gonna get 4 nights of decent sleep before the next jump ball on Saturday?
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Is it possible Self was trying to light a fire in Udoka to work on these? There is no other explanation…
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@DanR Please share with all of us what you are smoking. If you think teams will not continue to do this from here on, you need to take a few days off. It will not matter whether it is in conference play or in the Dance. And Dok will not get much better shooting FT’s with his form. So I guess Coach can just let him work thru his issues and we can just continue to lose games. Now there is a great scheme going forward. NOT!!!
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Not trying to change Dokes ft mechanics midseason is almost as epic a meltdown as leaving him in the game tonight. Or actually could be a much larger meltdown. I absolutely 100% detest that decision. Maybe the dumbest thing I’ve heard yet. I mean seriously?? Do you think you’re gonna hurt his ft shot so bad that the percentage actually goes down!!! Or say it oh…idk costs us a game!!! He has ZERO mechanics now!!! Gotta be FN kidding me. Teach the kid how to shoot a damn ft…
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Hey @Big-Clyde52 I doubt we’ll see the same scenario again. Was there some reason why Devonte couldn’t take it right to the rim while Doke was planted in the corner on those four possessions? …I think we can exploit the poke-a-doke strategy better than we did tonight.
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@DanR This is different. This is free throw shooting. This is not playing through mistakes. Udoka made no mistakes. Udoka is shooting free throws like a deranged 4th grader who needs to be playing the trombone, solely because the KU staff permits it.
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Bad News: We all agree how and why we lost this game when it was ours for the taking. Good News: We are 6-2 in Big12, at this stage, and that’s probably what most of us thought going into the season. Bad News: In Big12 play, our avg. margin of victory is 4 pts. Our avg. margin on losses, 8 pts.
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@HighEliteMajor Play the best players, man. Everyone has some weaknesses
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@HighEliteMajor exactly. The comparison is laughable at minimum.
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@DanR And just how can we exploit it??? Please tell us. I want to win.
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Situation dictates who the best player is at that moment. Put your team in the best possible position to win, regardless of how that makes the player feel. You bring in Wade Davis to close the game, not pitch the first 8.
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You play the best FT shooters in crunch time when the opposing team’s strategy to get back in it, is fouling Doke.
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@DanR In that situation, Udoka is not the best player. Further, the “weakness” is situationally fatal. And we can see that it just cost us a game. Normally, the play best players is right (heck, nearly all the time). But good grief.
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@hawkmoon2020 EXACTLY! Please explain that to the people that are trying to smooth this loss over with whipped cream. JEESHH!
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@Big-Clyde52 Let him play harder and foul out! Unleash the beast.
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How many timeouts did we have? Could he have switched Mitch and Dok on offense and defense?
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@DanR Another great scheme!!
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DanR said:
Hey @Big-Clyde52 I doubt we’ll see the same scenario again. Was there some reason why Devonte couldn’t take it right to the rim while Doke was planted in the corner on those four possessions? …I think we can exploit the poke-a-doke strategy better than we did tonight.
Why wouldn’t opposing teams use the Poke-a-Doke strategy in close games late? OU brought a bench warmer in specifically to foul Doke to put him on the line. They fouled Doke as soon as the ball was brought across half court. This wasn’t a case of OU waiting for Doke to catch the and foul, they were fouling him when he was out on the perimeter doing nothing but standing there.
If I’m A&M’s coach or any other coach and KU has a small lead late, I’m fouling Doke and putting him on the line as much as possible and I’m bringing in a walk on for that specifical purpose.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go. The situation has been exposed for the rest of the season. Every coach in the nation has seen it now.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 should’ve been intentional
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@HighEliteMajor I have disagreed with the strategy in the past of playing the best players. I thought EJ sucked compared to Brady, and was proven right in the end when he choked against Michigan. But, I’m sold now. Let them learn. Lose some games. Shoulder the responsibility of being the teammate that lost the game because you were lazy in practice and didn’t listen to coaching.
Then, improve in practice, and hopefully be ready for March. If not., fire coach Self.
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Big Clyde52 said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go. The situation has been exposed for the rest of the season. Every coach in the nation has seen it now.
I think Bill knows this. We were 2 games up, we still have sole possession. Self probably thought, what the heck, we always win close games, hopefully Dok can come through and get some confidence.
What I HOPE Bill knows is that instead of saying afterwards that he (Self) goofed up, he should be saying that Dok needs to learn to make free throws. Otherwise he’s going back on his vote of confidence.
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@chriz I simply don’t get the “vote of confidence” point. Doke not making FTs is NOT for lack of confidence. It is that he has probably the worst FT shooting “technique” of any college or pro player I’ve ever seen. Definitely worse than Shaq. He can have all the confidence in the world - he ain’t making more than 50% of his attempts shooting them the way he does…
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Listening to Self in the post game interview, it was probably not Doke’s confidence on the line tonight.
Guess you have to see what you’ve got to work with in crunch time at some point.
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The idea that you can’t work on changing his shot at this point in season is just foolish. What’s he gonna do go 0-7? Big deal. From the sound of it the strategy isnt gonna change moving forward…
So… Same strategy, and same mechanics=??? I guess alot more “This is on me, I screwed up”
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So what about Vick, speaking about hurting our game tonight?
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@DanR For sure we can exploit it. Doke never comes out and we feed him the ball til we empty their bench. Lon didn’t out coach Self, Self stopped coaching.How does this weigh on Doke? If Doke starts launching 3’s from half court is Bill going to leave him in? If Doke tries to bring the ball up the court against a press, is that alright?
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@DanR Fair enough. Couldn’t he have seen that at any point up and until this game. If not, how about the first time they poked Doke? The second time? The third time? What, not even after the fifth time?
Stipulated that we need Doke on the floor as much of the game as possible. But in this game, Mitch had about the same slash line in 5 fewer minutes. More importantly, he is 14-17 from the FT line this year. I get you want to have your best players on the floor. But, in obvious fouling situations, a 40% FT shooter is not one of your best players.
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@cragarhawk “The idea that you can’t work on changing his shot at this point in season is just foolish”
I love this statement so much. Because it’s true. In a few months, I’ll be 60. Haven’t played competitive ball in 35 years. Haven’t played HORSE with my kids in the driveway for over 10 years. I’ll bet anyone on here I can go out RIGHT NOW - at 9:41 at night and by 11:00 I will have improved my free throw percentage by 50%.
It’s not that damn hard. You think " OH - I bricked that one, I’ll soften the next shot up a little “. " OH - that was was too soft, too flat, I’ll put a little more ooomph on it and a little more arc” “OH - I need to get my hand square under the ball and bring my elbow in closer”.
Not - OH - I’ve bricked the last 100 shots I put up, guess I’ll keep doin the same damn thing. OH - I must be doing it right because my dumb ass coaches aren’t telling me to do anything different and they keep me in here at crunch time so I can lose the game for my team and our fans.
I’ve said for YEARS that these prima donna college basketball players need to put in MINIMUM 2 hours practice per day on Free Throws. Good free throw shooting teams win championships. They’re FREE.
FREE POINTS.
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At some point, should the refs call it intentional?
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@HighEliteMajor He is clearly not doing the same routine on each shot (Free throw 101), and what I noticed tonight is he is not even looking at the freaking rim when he releases the ball. I constantly worked with my players to improve their form and routine during the season, and guess what? Most of them improved!
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Doke’s last free throw was at 1:56 and even with the miss KU was up by 1. Point taken about Doke and his free throws but in fairness, a second look at the final 1:56 is also relevant – a missed 3 by Graham, a missed 3 by Svi, and a missed switch on defense that cost us 3…to name a few.
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I see all of the usual Self defenders which is usually me but tonight Self should have pulled Doke. The fans knew it, refs knew it, and the opposing team knew it. Yall are saying keeping him in shows Doke that Self believes in him? Self made him stand in the corner after the time out to keep the other team from fouling him. So you handicap your team when the game is on the line? Might as well develope an inbounds play where you throw it to the other team. Or better yet inbounds lob in the opposing teams basket?
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Statmachine said:
Yall are saying keeping him in shows Doke that Self believes in him?
That’s what Self said in his post game interview
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Subbing offense for defense and vice versa is basic coaching. i did it all the time. It did not hurt the kids confidence. It let them know we were doing all we could to win the damn game!
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That’s bs. He just stood him in the corner so he wouldn’t get fouled. That sends the exact same message.
