Udoka Free Throw Solutions - Photo Added
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@HighEliteMajor Shhhhhhhh, maybe you should delete that post just in case
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@StLJhawk PHOF!
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@JayHawkFanToo I personally do not think the Staff works on Dokeās Free Throw form.
I think it would be a waste of time. Even if Doke had perfect form, do we actually think he could shoot free throws at 60%? Shaq only broke 60% once his entire career.
Even if teams started using the strategy to āPoke-a-Doke,ā I would welcome it. College teams do not have the same depth NBA teams do. Nor do they get the extra 6th foul. Long story short, it doesnāt make sense to do it in college. At least not at the level of Hack-A-Shaq.
So, wouldnāt we be served better to improve Dokeās hook shot from 60% to 75%? Or work on his drop step to his right shoulder and go from 0% to 50% on those field goal attempts?
Or, better yet, improve his rebounding percentage from 17% to 22%?
Those would be far more valuable than the possible .2 points per game more we would gain from Doke MAYBE shooting free throws better.
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KU may have to close games with an offense for defense switch, using Mitch on O and Doke on D. Mitch isnāt a great FT shooter, but he can hit them. Heās not as good as his 82% this year, but he could probably settle in around 70% or so. Thatās good enough to close out games.
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I say Poke-a-Doke at your own peril!
Putting Doke on the line repeatedly for the remainder of the season will give him the extra FT practice heās clearly not getting outside of a game setting, which will undoubtedly improve his conversion rate. It could be just the strategy we need to cut down the nets in April.
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āFoul the opposition on purpose with the lead. Is that a crazy strategy? If Baylor had done that starting at the 2:30 mark, you think they win?ā
Sure seems crazyā¦ doesnāt it? Imagine a coach with a lead suddenly kicking in a very different strategy. Almost unheard of. That coach would face huge criticism if it backfiresā¦ but would also be praised if it works.
What chance do you think we have of facing āpoke a Dokeā moving forward? I find it highly likelyā¦ maybe 80% or higher.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Honest question: Do you really think the staff has not been working withe Doke on the FT issue? Do you really think it is that incompetent that would say forget FTs letās work on something else? Do you really think you know more than they do when it comes to Dokeās issues at the FT line? do you really think they donāt see the poke-a-Doke looming ahead as a serious strategy by opposing teams?
I think most of your questions have already been answered from previous years. This isnāt the first Jayhawk to struggle at the line.
My memory sucksā¦ but if I recall correctly, Self has shocked us before with his comments on practicing FTs. Previously, he basically detached himself from that area. He sort of skirted the issue by not addressing what is practice protocol.
It would be great if someone in here can dig up old Self comments on this. Iām having a hard time remembering what player or players it was addressing.
I know Self is careful about NOT trying to make mechanical changes on playersā stroke during the season. I definitely recall him talking about this in the past. I donāt understand why that should matter concerning Doke. He hasnāt taken a single straight-up jump shot on the goal all year. Adjusting his shot form on FTs shouldnāt impact his baby hook, dunk or layup form. In fact, it may help him get started on his mid-range gameā¦ something he will need to develop for the league.
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Very compelling postā¦ Bravo!
Iām not sure we can just nest Doke in a straight comparison to Shaq. Every player is different from each other.
From what I have seen of Doke, I think he has outrageous upside just from watching how fast his game has come along. You can almost watch every gameās performance from him and compare to his game before it and you can make a good guess of what he worked on in between. I donāt think I can recall a single player, ever, who has made these leaps of gains so quickly. JoJo was amazing to watch, but he had so much of a lead on Doke when he started at Kansas.
I still donāt think most people give Doke the credit he deserves for how fast he has developed his game. Just consider the physical side. He has gone through a complete body transformation, replacing baby fat with muscle. And nowā¦ if you really want to see something freakyā¦ go back and watch his first games this year and compare to now. His stamina has come an amazing distance! This is definitely the biggest area where Doke can make gains to help us. If you noticeā¦ when he gets tired he is more likely to screw up on bad fouls and his game goes soft. Note that part of the stamina issue relates directly to genetics. His lung size, oxygen retention, and other factors are largely decided through genetics. It takes a remarkable amount of work to be able to battle through genetic bumps in the road.
Iām outrageously anxious now to see just how far he comes along this year. Let me put it to you like thisā¦ imagine Dokeās stat sheet DOUBLING between now and the beginning of April! Yepā¦ I said āApril!ā
Soā¦ through my optimistic eyes focused on Doke, I will be shocked if he canāt learn how to shoot a decent % from the line. He just hasnāt settled on ONE FORM and then start building on that. With the practice (and some success in games) his confidence will grow from the line and heāll probably jump 10% by just being more confident. You can clearly see how he lacks confidence at the line. His facial expression looks like heās having a tooth pulled at the dentist. (lol)
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You make excellent points that go to the meat of what I asked. I have seen Doke shoot FTs during warmups and he uses a decent form which would appear to indicate the staff has worked with him, but once the game starts, he reverts to that god awful and flawed form of his.
There are several areas where Dokeās game can be improved and I am sure the staff has looked at the return on investment and determined it is much higher improving other parts of his game. At this point, I would be happy if he could improve his rebounding; I watched the TCU - WVU game and made me wish we could rebound as well as those teams do.
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@drgnslayr From what I can remember Self has said stuff like players work on their free throws on their own time and we donāt want to mess with mechanics mid season. In fact I canāt remember a single player drastically adjusting their form in their time at KU. (Sorry Garrett, you probably are what you are as a shooter)
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@benshawks08 TāRob is about the only guy I can think of that really, really improved his form and shot.
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@Kcmatt7 I can remember several guys improving their shot (RussRob, Releford, heck even Miles his senior year) but most of them had solid mechanics to start. TRob is a good example, I just personally cannot remember much about his form when he got here.
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Another example of a player that changed his shooting form is TT, between his junior and senior year. He went down to Houston and worked with John Lucas on his shot form and other details of his game, like finishing at the rim.
TTs stats climbed dramatically in his senior year.
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@HighEliteMajor so irritated right now. You?
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@approxinfinity Now that a team has really employed the strategy, we will now take it more seriously.
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Was Lightfoot playing so poorly that leaving Doke in was our best option? I actually thought Mitch played well.
The real question I guess, can De Sousa develop enough by mid-March to be a guy Bill trusts at the end of the game? Because Bill clearly doesnāt trust Lightfoot.
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@Kcmatt7 Mitch shouldāve been put in late no question, but he gives up offensive rebounds like itās candy on Halloween.
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@Kcmatt7 - -Again I ask - -Why couldnāt self have put Cunliffe in? - -go ahead play 5 small - -ya probably give up two possibly on the other end maybe -but I know they sure the hell wouldnāt be hackin away - Put Cunliffe in - -put Mitch in - -This is on Self
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This from last year: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article120294748.html
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Itās going to be like this the rest of the way. - -I mean there were some other reasons - -like Graham shooting like crap - -Vick not showing - -BUT this is Self
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I canāt believe what I just watchedā¦
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@kjayhawks Well, to be fair, nobody but Doke rebounds well. Vick is the biggest disappointment I think Iāve ever seen in my years of watching KU.
Not the lockdown defender he was supposed to be. And definitely not as good of a rebounder as a guy that is 6ā5 and as athletic as he is should be.
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Most profound statement of the decade Self " - -this loss is on me ā -I screwed it up " - -OMG are you sure
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@Kcmatt7 Mitch was playing very well. Self did a great job getting the ball to Doke to start the half, sparking our run. But Mitch was a great alternative tonight and that should have been the move. And regarding Doke rebounding well, thatās relative. Doke is not the āgo get itā, high energy, I would die for a rebound kind of guy.
@approxinfinity So with that link, youāre suggesting that Self and his staff have had well over a year to work with Udoka on his free throw shooting, knowing how bad he is? And that he shot under 40% from the line last season? And that Udoka actually injured his left wrist last season, so there is no reason why Udoka shouldnāt have been working on proper form from the line while he had all that free time healing? Interesting.
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@HighEliteMajor Yup!
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@HighEliteMajor If you look at past KU teams, they have a guy that rebounds (percentage-wsie) about as well as Doke. Realistically, slightly better. But, what this team lacks more than a good primary rebounder is a decent secondary rebounder. Self has had teams that gain a potential 15 point advantage per game from rebounding. This team gains less than 2 POTENTIAL points over their opponents from rebounding.
But that isnāt really the argument right now. At least Bill knows that he canāt let Poke-a-Doke just happen. Doke also will probably feel so bad about this loss that he will work on free throws for the rest of the season and potentially shoot well enough to end Poke-A-Doke.
Long-term, this loss could be a good thing. Only time will tell.
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@HighEliteMajor How can you, who lives God only knows where, understand these things and the coaches that are with him every single day canāt figure it out?
He looks like a goose with a broken wing - there is No way a shot would ever go in - unless it bounces off somebodyās head.
His free throw shooting is abominable. The fact that somebody hasnāt fixed it by now is worse. He has figured out how to dunk and hook - thatās all he needs to know there. Spend 8 hours a day shooting GD free throws.
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Watched the ESPN highlights of the game just now. not a single mention of Dokeās free throw woes. Letās just pretend it never happened and there is no problem we need to fix.
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@approxinfinity Thatās all theyāre talking about now.
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@nuleafjhawk I just need an explanation. I need to hear coach Self say, āLook, itās an Africa thing. When he left, he promised his townfolk that he would never change his free throw shooting to honor all of them, each time he plays.ā Other than that, Iām lost.
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Mitch was having a real good game, only Newman and Svi had a better PER, only 2 players Mitch and Garret had a positive +/-. De Sousa, on the other hand had a miserable outing, 1 minute, 3 turnovers and 1 foul.
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Awesome! Btw, Kruger was reading your posts obviously. How prescient.
HighEliteMajor said:
@nuleafjhawk I just need an explanation. I need to hear coach Self say, āLook, itās an Africa thing. When he left, he promised his townfolk that he would never change his free throw shooting to honor all of them, each time he plays.ā Other than that, Iām lost.
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@approxinfinity they (ESPN) too caught up in Trae worship. They missed the story of the game in Selfās flub at the end from about 2-3 min left.
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@JayHawkFanToo DeSousaās +/- has got to be horrid. Iād guess (without actually checking) -8 KSU +2 WVU, -4 Baylor, -2 OU. I hope Iām wrong, but that seems about right. He goes in the lead disappears, but itās not all his fault. This team scores in spurts then sputters.
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@HighEliteMajor Any chance his wrist injury has affected his ability to hold his arm, wrist and hand vertically? I injured my wrist ligaments literally 42 years ago, and even though I got 99% recovered, that 1% limits a few motions. The free throw motion happens to be one, but oddly, holding my elbow out makes it easier. Not as far as Dok, to do mine without pain is more of a 45 degree angle.
If so, Self would not want to reveal it to preserve Dokās pro prospects, or maybe Dok has never revealed it to the staff. And, perish the thought, other teams might foul on purpose knowing he could not make FTs.
Just speculating. It is just very weird to have pain from an injury that occurred after my freshman year. And his was a lot more recent.
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@mayjay thats entirely possible. If that were the case, I would like to think Self would be smart enough to not put Dok in those kinds of situations. He must have a hidden agenda for doing what he did because even people who dont know much or care at all about basketball knew what the proper move was.
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@HawkChamp Self gave his explanationā¦He believed you should leave your best players in. Also, he believed that Doke could hit half of those FTsā¦if so, it might have been a different game. He admitted that it turned out to be a bad decision. I donāt think there was a hidden Agenda.
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@HighEliteMajor hit this topic 100% correct. That Udoka photo of his retarded FT form, is just horrific. Literally, Iāve never seen such bad form on any level of bball, even down to jr high level. Its just moronic that a storied programās alumni & fans, and its $52mil HOF coach have to waste time cussing & discussing Udoka FT form.
Every future KU opponent just took note of how & when Lon Kruger did what he didā¦
Scout on KU 2017-18: Defend the 3, no saggingā¦and Hack-a-Doke.
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Hawk8086 said:
@HawkChamp Self gave his explanationā¦He believed you should leave your best players in. Also, he believed that Doke could hit half of those FTsā¦if so, it might have been a different game. He admitted that it turned out to be a bad decision. I donāt think there was a hidden Agenda.
The thing that leaves me questioning a hidden agenda is it just wasnt one time, but OU kept fouling. This happened from the four minute mark onward, yet no adjustment from Self. I mean, the four times Dok went to the line were a turnover because we didnāt even get a shot off. Not acceptable.
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@mayjay @HawkChamp His wrist injury was to his left wrist. A point I made last night was that given all of his time off last season with the injury, that functional right wrist would have been quite able to practice and perfect free throw shooting technique.
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Iām not sure you can fix Dokaās shooting mechanics. Remember this kid didnāt start playing organized basketball until later in his life. He so far behind the learning curve on how to actually shoot, Iām just not sure there is enough time to catch up?
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DoubleDD said:
Iām not sure you can fix Dokaās shooting mechanics. Remember this kid didnāt start playing organized basketball until later in his life. He so far behind the learning curve on how to actually shoot, Iām just not sure there is enough time to catch up?
there may not be enough time, but of course it can be fixed. I donāt believe that he is physically incapable of moving his right elbow inward toward his rib cage, nor do I believe he is incapable of releasing the ball on his right side instead of his left. Until definitively proven otherwise, I believe it can be fixed.
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Two of the great basketball bigs of all time, Wilt and Shaq, could not hit FTs and they booth have career averages of just over 0.500 with Wilt having one with 0.380; Bill Russell, another great big has a career average of 0.561. I personal;y think they developed mental blocks they were not able to overcome; obviously they excelled in other parts of the game.
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Well Iām holding out for hope. Yet you have to admit Coach is starting with scratch. Iām afraid Dokaās shooting woes have officially become a serious problem.
I was so hoping he could sneak by and even get lucky enough to shoot say 50%. This is no longer the issue. Doka has now become useless in close games coming down to the wire. Sadly he has become a liability late in games. Theyāre already calling it the Pok a Dok.
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@HighEliteMajor Well, shoot. Another great theory shot to hell! Thx for the correction (in Embarrassment font).
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I have read that big men have trouble finding the optimal release point and shot arc for FTs because of their longer standing reach and overall long limbs. The ideal shooting motion is a more compact movement, but big guys tend to have lots of moving parts in their shooting stroke.
That can be corrected obviously - Dirk Nowitzki immediately comes to mind as a great FT shooter, but I think it takes more time for a big man to develop a good shooting stroke, particularly a big man that developed as a big guy playing in the post. Guys like Nowitzki developed as perimeter oriented players. Anthony Davis was a guard for most of his life. But some of the bigger guys tend to never have developed much in the way of shooting touch outside the paint anyway.
As a result, their release is inconsistent and their shooting suffers.
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The Big Dub was a very good FT shooter at 0.784, Withey 0.726, TRob went from 0.395 as a freshman, 0.510 as a sophomore to 0.682 in his Junior year.
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@HawkChamp I agree that Selfās strategy, or lack thereof was not acceptable.
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Yāall see this? http://www2.kusports.com/news/2018/jan/24/police-called-suspicious-person-offering-free-thro/
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Kareem was 72% I believe for his career so it can be done.
