EX-3PT UPDATE
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I feel somewhat bad fit the kid. Lights out shooter in high school then hits the big stage and implodes.
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@chriz said:
I feel somewhat bad fit the kid. Lights out shooter in high school then hits the big stage and implodes.
I think you meant to say: “lights out shooter in high school then hits the big stage and imbibes”
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@tis4tim Sad but true!
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@jaybate-1.0 You might have found the bait needed to draw @HighEliteMajor out of hibernation!
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I still pull for Conner. Once a Jayhawk, always a Jayhawk.
The sad thing for Conner… he would probably average near 20 mpg this year with us. And with our offense, he would be more open from trey, no doubt increasing his percentage.
A lot would depend on whether or not we start getting more production from our post and run two post players most of the time.
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@drgnslayr Whose points would he be replacing? And can he play defense?
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Good question, The kid did have a solid BBall IQ.
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@jaybate-1.0 lol, that’s crazy you must of been reading my mind. - - -that’s scary lol, no but seriously, I was watching Conner against Oklahoma, decided to look up his stats - - not very good, not sure if our old buddy thought after Connor got there he was going to be that final piece for him or not - -terrible defense. kind of Matadore, his production just isn’t very good, not missing him like I thought we might. Good Kid but really struggling - - -Rock chalk all day long baby
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@BeddieKU23 me too, looks awful I think he is seeing less and less pt there now - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@mayjay good question, my first thought was Vick then thought no they don’t play the same position. The answer to your 2nd question is - - have you seen him this year on defense? - - awful, so the answer to that is a big fat NO lol - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jaybate-1.0 Despite Conner being an ex Jayhawk, I would love more than anything to draw WSU in the NCAA’s. I personally believe we would eat them alive this time.
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@drgnslayr not one who leaves us, not me!
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@jayballer54 he was always bad on D! Marsha called him out for just going east and west and not good going north and south. He also said cf had the dumbest play he’s every seen! Son and I heard it on radio coming back from thanksgiving. Cf threw the ball into the other teams back ct
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@drgnslayr In most gentlemanly fashion, sir, I’d have to mildly disagree: Conner Frankamp cannot hang with our guards. Mason & Devonte outclass him by EVERY metric imaginable, and the guards only get bigger, stronger, faster (Svi, Vick, JJ). There is no place for CF on the KU roster other than practice player, but who is he going to emulate on the scout team? Frachilla’s son? I remember the 2008 guys asked what fellow player they look up to most, and Jeff Hawkins won by a wide margin…I guess he had a sick game in practice & 1on1, but could NEVER crack that roster. But no KU players have EVER mentioned CF in that manner. Seems to corroborate what our own eyes saw: not much in any category…or: hopelessly outclassed. Remainder of this post not @drgnslayr, but just fodder comments based on the way my eyes see CF…
CF is no VanVleet, he is no Ron Baker (who is 3x the player CF is). CF cant hold the jock of even guys like Landry Shamut or the other lanky fast 6’3 guard WuShox have.
CF is genetically challenged as a Div.1 player (not a D1 athlete), as well as judgement-challenged.
Finally: Naadir Tharpe > CF on court, but also made a fatal mistake offcourt.
How many effin ways can I say good riddance? Hope he gets serious in the classroom. He & his dad totally delusional. The death of a dream is never pretty, friendly, or easy. But they had so many chances to reality-test that dream, didnt they? For CF’s dad to get p.o.'d & go at Self, just proves in all his yrs watching his son, he dont know schitt about bkball. He totally missed the contextual situation he saw his son play in at h.s., then missed it again watching ku games & practices!
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AW3? There’s a fair number of 6’6 basketball players making a good living overseas. Not NBA material. K.Langford was better than AW3, & thats a great comparison, as even SuperK couldnt stick in the League. But he IS the highest paid US player abroad (7figs). Langford was my hero for a çouple of seasons along w/Miles. They also ROCKED their MJ shoes in KU colors, as they not only closed out the Nike era at KU, but also sufferred thru Roy’s departure.
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Frankamp and White are two guys that ended up leaving KU for the same reason - simply not athletic enough.
Both are more than capable as shooters (I believe Frankamp’s numbers will go up), but the other aspects of their game (athleticism, strength, defense, decision making, etc.) are just not up to par. Don’t get me wrong, they are D1 players, but they would not have ever made it playing at KU. Just too much talent coming in every season.
White can’t match the athleticism of most wings. Add to it that he isn’t a top notch ball handler, and its easy to understand why he struggles sometimes. He is a shooter only. He can’t create for others, doesn’t defend or rebound much and can’t operate as a secondary ball handler.
Frankamp can handle the ball, but he’s too small and too slow to really take the leap as a lead guard. He isn’t big enough, so getting his shot off against D1 athletes is a challenge, so he is in a position where he will struggle from time to time. He’s two inches too short to play his role effectively.
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@justanotherfan Yes, too short & too slow. Again, Naadir Tharpe beats CF as a bball player. If someone threatened to cut off my (hand) & forced me to pick 1 for my team, I’d pick Naads.
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@justanotherfan Marsha has destroyed his confidence too, publicly
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I realize CF can’t compete with our guards, but we could sure use one more guard to help knock down all those minutes Frank is on the floor. What did he play… 38 against NU?
He keeps going like that then it will be hard for him to peak in March, when we need him at his best.
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The question though is whether Conner would be okay with being a 5-10 minute per game guy as a senior, because that is probably all he would play. My guess is no, which would turn into a significant distraction. I hate that we probably could use one more guy and that might burn us in March, but I don’t think Conner would be willing to be that last guy for a chance to win a title if it meant only playing 30 minutes total in the tournament.
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The undercurrent driving motivator for CF is to be the D1 star, so that he can play in the NBA. Thats what he & his dad want. He’s not Trey Burke. Not Nate Robinson. Couldnt beat out Mason or Graham. CANT DEFEND TO SELF LEVEL. Heck Vick barely can but he’s a ridic athlete that can do alot, & even erase his matadoresque D. BGreene > CF.
I wish KU people would quit lamenting some B-grade kid that CHOSE to bail, or was let go by Self. The damn CF saga ended in Dec.2014. It is now 2016.
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I too am ready for a piece of Marsha.
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The POY of the State of Kansas should always get an invitation to KU; however, playing time should not be a given or guaranteed. Reed and Ellis proved themselves to be Major Program worthy players and “earned” substantial playing time, Frankamp did not…it’s that simple.
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Sorry… not meaning to hang out there on Conner. I’m cool with him gone. Just wish we had another guard. Not sure what to think of BG and whether or not he would still be good for us when considering his baggage. Probably not.
But imagine him hanging out on the perimeter now? I’m not certain it would work out like what we have now. BG couldn’t drive and score. All of our guards now have the drive as a threat. I know I definitely prefer Svi to BG. He may not be quite the shooter from outside, but he does have a threat of driving. And he doesn’t run an attitude undercurrent with the team.
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@JayHawkFanToo Perfectly put. It truly is that simple.
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@drgnslayr No need to apologize, my friend…I was simply going after the reasons CF is not here. He and/or Self simply pulled his plug.
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@drgnslayr yep, no way Frank should have been on the court at the end of the NU game.
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@Bwag The plan is to sit Frank if its a 20pt margin. The end of NU, it was a 4possession game. The team was laccadaisical to start the 2nd half. Frank had to be there in the end based on the actual game that happened, but I suppose if one is only looking at the opponent *“against Nebraska??”**–> sure that may sound like a reasonable question.
Again, the idea someone above floated out there is that if CFrankamp still here, then Frank wouldnt have to play so many mpg. I reject that concept, since CF in NO way, shape, or form, can replace Frank Mason III. This isnt the MVC.
The footnote is, for any of you that watch WSU bkball, is that CF is outclassed on that particular MVC team also. Guys like Dashaun Smith, Landry Shamet, T.Taylor…
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@ralster 20 point lead seems excessive if that is truly the bar.
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In regards to the minutes being played by our guards, do you think the Big-12’s scheduling of KU games is one of the biggest concerns for the Frank/Devonte wear down?
Hear me out. I think in a perfect world KU would have another trust-worthy ball-handler to use but we don’t. The Connor talk got me thinking about some of the obvious factors we may see that cause the wear down effect of Frank.
The Big-12 likes to stick it to KU when it comes to it’s traditional Saturday/Monday turnaround games. KU is always playing more short-rest games then the rest of the Big-12 and the rest of College Basketball (if I’m stating that in-correctly let me know). KU plays 4 Big Monday games this year and surprisingly 2-away, 2-home. I guess if we were thinking “big picture” the short-rest games help prepare this team for March. In some way they may be the reason Frank or Devonte wear down as the season goes on.
Having said all that I do think our guards are in the best shape of their life to withstand the rigors of the season. If they can survive the Big-12 and make it to March fresh then our concerns will be null. The injury bug has hit KU hard in the past when we’ve hit March. It’s about time the luck changed.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
The Big-12 likes to stick it to KU when it comes to it’s traditional Saturday/Monday turnaround games.
According to the ESPN announcement, KU plays 4 Big Monday games, UNC, Duke and Oklahoma 3 each - so yes KU has lots of short turnarounds.
Is it really the Big 12, or just ESPN?
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From KU Hoops:
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Many factors involved in Frank’s mpg:
He wants to play. He wants big production stats to show the scouts. He touches 30pts a few more times, and 25+ also a few other times, that greatly enhances his chances. Self wants him to play, partly because of his statstuffer production, but also offensive leader, offense is efficient. It cant be Devonte OR Frank, because when its BOTH, we are impossibly hard to guard. Also, we have 5 guards, so we are integrating a new offensive philosophy + newer players (Vick & JJ), so the stability of older players is needed. Vick or JJ make a mistake, Frank or Devonte know the plays & possibly could go cover where the mistake/gap occurred. Think of plays in a very fluid sense. Frank is tough(!!)-why shouldnt he play 30+ mpg? More Frank is grrreat for KU, Self, & all the highlights y’all enjoy. Finally, Frank & Self know that to get to the Final Four or any such “legacy” achievement for Frank, they both have to get these Jhwks as efficient as possible. There remain some troubling areas needing improvement–> which all the guards are busy masking & overcoming rt now.
I’ll spin part of Frank’s own tweet/quote, but in the same big picture perspective he was using the phrase: "…but where is my TEAM?"
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Luke Kennard (Duke) has played the 11th most minutes of any basket ball player. He’s having the best year of his life.
Ballers wanna play. You can’t keep Mason off the court.
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@dylans DG bringing the ball up more, Frank’s time to shine! I don’t think he’s wearing down.
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You need your best guys on the floor in March. How do you get into shape to pace/play 35+ minutes, in quick turn around March games, if you don’t do it during the season? You’ve gotta tear yourself down to build yourself up better. The trick is to stay healthy - stop hitting the floor on every layup attemp Frank!!! KU NEEDS YOU!!!
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I’d be careful with saying always. There have been some serious issues with the voting for Mr. Basketball from time to time. It doesn’t always go to the best player in the state. If KU were to always offer, the voting would probably get even more skewed.
For example, in 1997, Brett McFall (son of a HS coach) won the award. Future NBAers Earl Watson and Maurice Evans were both passed over.
In 2003, Aubrey Bruner won the award. He did not even play D1 basketball. There were at least 7 guys in that high school class across the state that ended up playing D1 eventually.
In 2008, Travis Releford did not win the award. That went to Jordan Cyphers instead. He played at Tennessee State.
In 2011, the award went to Christian Ulsaker, who played at Washburn. Ron Baker and Evan Wessel were both in that class.
That’s four different years right there where its pretty clear the best player in the state did not win the award. There’s no way KU should have offered a scholarship to the winner in those years, as two of those players weren’t even D1 prospects. Not saying the guys that won the award weren’t good players - just that they were not KU level players.
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“You need your best guys on the floor in March. How do you get into shape to pace/play 35+ minutes, in quick turn around March games, if you don’t do it during the season? You’ve gotta tear yourself down to build yourself up better. The trick is to stay healthy - stop hitting the floor on every layup attemp Frank!!! KU NEEDS YOU!!!”
That is worth repeating!
I think we have all experienced how Frank is more selective on his finishes starting with last year. I believe last year he actually played less aggressive because he was trying to prevent injury or help protect an injury he was dealing with. It seems his biggest weak area is his elbows… and elbow injuries relate to going down hard on the court.
Frank definitely knows more on how to land safely.
However… with this being his senior year, I expect Frank to push his aggression harder than last year. He needs to finish well to help his potential draft position. And… we need Frank’s potential “volume scoring” approach this year as we recover from the loss of Perry’s consistent points.
Playing too many minutes puts players in a higher risk bracket for injuries because of several reasons. Just adding more minutes increase risk by exposure. But also, late game injuries may be more likely because when players get tired, they often put themselves in riskier situations.
One way to help Frank stay healthy is for Bill to watch Frank closely late in games. When he sees Frank make riskier decisions or shows signs of being tired, that is the time to pull Frank (when the game is in the bag). Even if games are not totally decided yet, it is good for us to see a Frank-less lineup deal with challenging situations.
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Again, The POY should always get an “invitation” but not a guarantee to make the team or to get playing time; he could well end up as a walk on. There are more that one POY publications; the Gatorade POY seems to be the one of the better ones and correspond pretty much with who you mentioned as candidates. Here are some recent ones including the years you mentioned…
1997 Gatorade POY Maurice Evans
2003 Gatorade POY Ryan Rindberg
2007 Gatorade POY Tyrel Reed
2008 Gatorade POY Travis Releford
2009 Gatorade POY Perry Ellis
2010 Gatorade POY Perry Ellis
2011 Gatorade POY Perry Ellis
2012 Gatorade POY Perry Ellis
2013 Gatorade POY Semi Ojeleye
2015 Gatorade POY Dean Wade
Do you really think that Ron Baker or Evan Wessel should have won in 2011 over Perry Ellis? I don’t think so. Baker was largely an unknown in HS that ended up walking up at WSU and taking a red shirt his first year; the only schools somewhat interested in him were Arkansas–Little Rock, Eastern Illinois, and South Dakota State…at that point, hardly a prospect KU would go after. He did develop into a very good player.
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@JayHawkFanToo Gatorade is different isn’t it?
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True its ESPN
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There are several publications/groups that name the state POY; the Gatorade nomination appears to be one of the better ones since it does not have the in-state bias and/or politics.
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The Conference and ESPN have an agreement to broadcast one game on Monday night during the season via the main ESPN feed and obviously they prefer to have KU which is the main attraction. ESPN also broadcasts other conference games on Saturdays either via ESPN or ESPN2 ESPNU ESPNews and so on. Weekend games tend to have large audiences so KU is always a candidate. Unlike the Big 12, the ACC has more teams that draw large audiences and they don’t need to have just Duke and UNC on all the time.
In other words, the cost of getting national exposure is having Saturday/Monday games.
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I agree that the Gatorade list is much, much, much more reflective of who the best player was in a given year, and I think you nailed the reason why - no instate bias to recognize certain players or certain schools. There’s no reason for a national group to recognize a kid that’s not a D1 prospect unless there are literally no D1 players in the state, but even Gatorade can miss.
For instance, last year’s Mr. Kansas Basketball was Drew Pyle of McPherson. He’s currently playing about 10 minutes a game for D2 Washburn pumping in 3.5 points per game. Not knocking him, because he was a very good, maybe even great high school player, but there were better players in the state.
The Gatorade POY was Jerrick Harding of Wichita Southeast, who is playing D1 ball at Weber State and is averaging 5 points in 10 minutes per game. But Michael Weathers is putting up 20/5 for Miami (OH). His brother Marcus is averaging 8/6 for those same RedHawks. Logan Koch is at Eastern Illinois getting almost as much run as Pyle and Harding are at their schools.
Part of the issue here in Kansas is the broad difference in talent levels for the different classes and different parts of the state. For instance, Perry Ellis and Willie Cauley-Stein never matched up in HS. I don’t think Semi Ojeleye and Ellis ever faced off, either. The top teams in the Wichita area don’t always face the top teams in the Kansas City area, so big time recruits often miss each other. For a state like Kansas, with typically fewer than 10 serious D1 prospects each year, that makes it really hard to evaluate who has the most impressive numbers and who is feasting on less formidable competition.
It could be argued that even Gatorade got it wrong last year. I realize the Gatorade award also looks to recognize academics, which are important, but don’t ultimately tell you whether a guy can play at the D1 level or not. One other observation about the Gatorade award is that it can go to a player of any grade level. Mr. Basketball can only be a senior.
Either way, I don’t think KU should just guarantee even a preferred walk-on spot for an in-state award winner, either Gatorade or Mr. Basketball. Could Michael Weathers play at KU? Probably, but he didn’t win either award. Could Pyle? No. Could Harding? Maybe, although his lack of PT at Weber State makes me wonder. Should KU have pursued any of these kids? I don’t think it was a mistake not to.
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Again, I did not indicate the POY should get a guaranteed anything. I simply indicated the POY should be invited to come and give it a try and prove he is worthy of a schoolie or even a walk on spot; I guess you can see it as the equivalent of a courtesy interview.
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Understood. The issue is that there is no tryout process for kids that aren’t enrolled (it is against NCAA rules to hold tryouts for student athletes that are not enrolled), so Harding, or Pyle or Weathers or whomever would have to come to KU, enroll as a student and then walk on, or be offered a scholarship prior to enrolling.
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You’re on the right track explaining Frank’s high minutes and presence, when the game was more or less out of reach. I’ll add a few reasons.
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High minutes in a hard fought game that Frank is having to play to win every possession on both ends of the floor are hard on Frank, but high minutes in a game against a lesser team with a big lead, where Frank can play at about 7/10s is really just a work out for him, probably easier than a lot of practices this time of year.
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Frank has one side of his game that still needs polishing. He needs to become smoother at shifting his transmission between drive/shoot and involve others. What he needs is repetitions doing it smoothly against an unfamiliar scrimmage opponent. That’s what NU amounted to the second half. Frank is almost certainly stale at learning to get better at this in practice after four years, because he knows all his perimeter pals, some for several years. Frank needs to become as Psi about seamlessly moving between playmaking and going and getting a basket, as he already is between jump shooting and driving. This seamlessness, i.e., where he is always a threat to do either, is all that now separates him from being one of those rare, short NBA long term PGs that can shoot, drive or playmake at any moment from 28 feet in. This guy can shoot lights out. He can drive lights out. He can get up with giants. He can guard. He can help. He can even rebound. And he has an NBA afterburner that he doesn’t even use with these D1 college guys. But he is not yet a seamless threat between involving others and creating himself. These minutes in the second half of the NU game are how he can take those incremental steps to mastering that.
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Self has a lot of bodies to develop, if we are to rack a title and make a deep run in March. These guys can’t develop as well if Frank is on the bench and another less proficient point guard is running the show and not running it efficiently. Devonte has already been developed as an effective replacement at point. Its even arguable that Devonte is the better natural point in the sense of being able to seamlessly shift between shoot/drive and involving the others. So: having Frank in playing 2/3s speed the right way, and enabling the development of Vick, Josh, and Svi outside kills two birds with one stone. It lets Frank get polished, and it keeps the offense well greased for the newbies to learn how it is supposed to go when done right.
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No doubt Self would be resting more Frank some more, if Devonte hadn’t come out of the blocks in lingerie. Devonte is the guy that needs protecting and resting some early. Now the Devonte seems to be rounding into shape, I suspect we will see Frank getting more rest and then board rats will be asking why Devonte is playing so many minutes?
All in all Self seems to have this process well in hand. If we see Frank playing 38 mpg in a 2 in 3 weekend situation in January with a big lead; then I will either begin to worry, or assume something is very wrong with one of the other perimeter guys.
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