Pistols Out of Ammo Game Thread
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My gosh Ochai.
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approxinfinity said:
My gosh Ochai.
He has been abysmal. Really been a letdown this year from what his expectations were. I doubt it will happen but hopefully he can find a spark coming down the stretch.
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When we have outside shooting going we look really good. Our defense is so good that we can also withstand some bad offensive stretches. They are getting better.
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Braun, any questions? Self starting Braun over Moss is a great sign. He’s a freshman, surely some big ups and downs to come. But getting shooting into the mix, playing the 4/1, is our only chance to be NC contenders.
Losing Dave for a couple of games may be a blessing in disguise.
If Self goes back to starting Dave and moves Braun to the bench … well, I’m not going to assume that for the moment.
It’s not just who finishes. The first 8 minutes can be as important as any time in the game. As is anytime spent overlapping Dave’s and Doke’s PT thereafter.
The question now becomes whether moving Agbaji to the bench to start the game is the right move. Might be a good to try. A change … any change … can create a different dynamic. Without a fully functioning Agbaji, we are likely in real trouble (related to any chance at tourney progress). That would mean Moss starting instead. Not the long term trade out we want, but short term, to create some spark, it’s worth a shot.
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Self said after the game he would continue to start 4 guards even with Dave back. Whether Braun keeps it, who knows but he’d be crazy to take him out of the lineup after yesterday
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Don’t think we should discount the defensive dirty work Ochai has done this year. His offense definitely needs to come around but I don’t think that’s really his focus. I think next year his offense starts to flow a little better like Marcus has done this year. I think this team’s strength is their defense and we should play to that strength.
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Also, Enaruna isn’t there yet but that kid has some defensive potential. He is just so long! I foresee many blocks, deflections and steals in his future.
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@benshawks08 didn’t he have 5 boards?
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@Crimsonorblue22 He did but I feel like all the rebounding numbers from last night are a little inflated. Sooo many bricks from both teams!
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It’s gotta be Braun instead of Moss in the 4-1. Leave Ochai. Defense gets better / a hot 3pt shooter.
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Just curious as to y’all’s thoughts, but Big Dave needs playing time to prepare for next year. If he doesn’t start, he will only get time as a sub for Doke, when HCBS goes with 2 bigs or when KU is in a blowout.
Doke needs to play for his value to the team and his Pro development.
IMHO, Self is starting 2 bigs to get Dave court time. KU needs him next year and starting him is his development time.
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Excellent point about Agbaji’s defense. He’s a permanent starter on this team because of what he brings at minimum defensively.
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Yeah he’s got a ways to go before figuring it out. A few important things to note: he flashed at the beginning of the season and while he’s struggled finding a role since the season has gone on he’s gotten minutes that will help him going forward. His off-season should consist of shooting and more shooting
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@BeddieKU23 I think he honestly has a good shot and I’d bet money he cans his fair share in practice. I think his work is more on the mental side of the game. For him his issues seem to be more about decision making, being in the right spot at the right time, and getting comfortable on the floor. Braun has progressed much more quickly in these areas and that’s why he’s doing what he is in Big 12 play. I believe Enaruna will be every bit the player Braun is long run and certainly has potential to be special.
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Just spit ballin’ here, but our team defense is excellent. Moss seems pretty good, not great.
We can’t win a NC without Agbaji producing offensively, I’d suggest. Our chances are at least way diminished if he’s in this ballpark of offensive production. His defense won’t go away.
Therefore, we need to explore how to get his offense going. Many times going to the bench, losing a starting job, can inspire. Also, some players do play better off the bench.
There is really no risk in trying it. Seeing if we can grab a spark offensively from him.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Just spit ballin’ here, but our team defense is excellent. Moss seems pretty good, not great.
We can’t win a NC without Agbaji producing offensively, I’d suggest. Our chances are at least way diminished if he’s in this ballpark of offensive production. His defense won’t go away.
Therefore, we need to explore how to get his offense going. Many times going to the bench, losing a starting job, can inspire. Also, some players do play better off the bench.
There is really no risk in trying it. Seeing if we can grab a spark offensively from him.
I would respectfully disagree - indeed, my spit ballin’ is that if we have to rely on Ochai to score more, then THAT diminishes our chance of a NC. He is not anything close to an efficient offensive player. He’s not a good ball handler (might even say below average for a wing), he isn’t effective driving, and he is at best streaky from 3-pt range and that’s being generous. IF Braun can be a consistent 8-10 ppg scorer, then we really don’t need any more than that from Ochai. Rather than having him take bad shots (which he does too often), I’d rather see him get those points off a few set plays, i.e., alley-oops and back-door cuts, kick-outs to the arc where he has time to really square up, and put-backs on offensive rebounds.
He IS a very good athlete, which he uses to good effect on the defensive end. However, he is not a particularly good rebounder - especially for someone of his size and athleticism. If we are going to go principally 4-1, then we really need Ochai (or someone) to step up on the boards - that where we have a more urgent need. Unfortunately, in the last two games in which we only had one big - and not even that for long stretches - he didn’t step up (in contrast to Garrett and in the last game, Braun).
With our defense, we don’t need to score 80 ppg to win - 70 will get it done most nights. If we get 32 from Doke and Dot, and 8-10 each from Garrett, Braun, Ochai, and Moss, then we’re at 68-72 and anything from Dave and Enaruna is gravy.
The bottom line is that while Ochai has demonstrated he is capable of a 20 pt game, he simply isn’t skilled enough to score in double figures on a consistent basis, at least not efficiently, and I would rather not have to rely on him having to get there…
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@DCHawker Well you obviously make good points. Maybe I’m still in preseason Agbaji mode. Braun has been the shooter I thought Agbaji would be so that’s probably the right way to look at it (as you reference). If we have three threats from the arc (Dotson, Braun, and Moss) that is probably enough. I do have higher expectations for Agbaji though by quite a long way.
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@DCHawker agree 100% let’s see how far Braun can take us as the 3 pt guy and dial back Agbaji on o to the parts that come naturally
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We need Ochai to play the role of Releford. Play lockdown perimeter D, make open 3’s. Don’t touch the ball. With the emergence of Garrett and to some degree Braun as legit ballhandlers we don’t need Ochai to so much of it since Self says we’re going 4 guards. Ochai will be the de facto 4
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FarmerJayhawk said:
We need Ochai to play the role of Releford. Play lockdown perimeter D, make open 3’s. Don’t touch the ball. With the emergence of Garrett and to some degree Braun as legit ballhandlers we don’t need Ochai to so much of it since Self says we’re going 4 guards. Ochai will be the de facto 4
I feel Marcus has become a solid back up PG - had like 9 assists last night - -not to sure think zero turnovers. I still have all the confidence in the world for Ochai I think he is going to be just fine
Kind of Scary to think what we can be like next year going forward with the 4 guard line up with the addition of Thompson & Dave at the 5 with the other Big’s to play back up. - -Kind of curious how Jalen fits I next year with the 4 guard?
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What if the key is actually the development of Braun. I think Agbaji is so much like Selden his Soph year in a lot of ways, the consistency issues on offense compare. I think our defense would suffer trying him off the bench
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Just to step back a moment…How many of us who attended KU in the 70’s would have ever imagined all the anguish and lamentation about a #3 ranked team?
Those of you who started in the 80’s and since have no idea the difference that extra 10 years of perspective can make! That is why I never get too disturbed by disappointments or too caught up in expectations. The joy of KU excelling these past 30 years will live as long as I do.
Okay, retrospective is done. Feel free to stress some more.
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mayjay said:
Just to step back a moment…How many of us who attended KU in the 70’s would have ever imagined all the anguish and lamentation about a #3 ranked team?
Those of you who started in the 80’s and since have no idea the difference that extra 10 years of perspective can make! That is why I never get too disturbed by disappointments or too caught up in expectations. The joy of KU excelling these past 30 years will live as long as I do.
Okay, retrospective is done. Feel free to stress some more.
Oh I remember some of the Teddy years. - -Good recruiter for that time frame - -just couldn’t Coach - - -I remember the Robisch , the Koeings years , the Kivisto years , the Nash years , The Pierre Russell years - -pretty decent players - - I remember years where you could buy a ticket and sooner then later during the game you could buy a ticket and then sit just about where you wanted
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@mayjay That’s a difference. Some are content with certain success. Some aren’t. Some define success as just not being bad or average or just better than good, and thus are content with not achieving greatness. We’ve only been the “champion” once in the last three full decades. We’ve only achieved “greatness” once in 30+ seasons. That’s ridiculous underachievement given our talent and two incredible hall of fame coaches and he level of our program. If our other successes provide contentment in the face of the alternatives for some, fine. But not for me.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@mayjay That’s a difference. Some are content with certain success. Some aren’t. Some define success as just not being bad or average or just better than good, and thus are content with not achieving greatness. We’ve only been the “champion” once in the last three full decades. We’ve only achieved “greatness” once in 30+ seasons. That’s ridiculous underachievement given our talent and two incredible hall of fame coaches and he level of our program. If our other successes provide contentment in the face of the alternatives for some, fine. But not for me.
I REALLY think you need to go into Coaching HighElite that way all our problems would be solved - -we would NEVER have to worry about National Championships EVER again - Championship every year Anything less will not be acceptable but not to wory , we have you at the helm Lot of Schools - - Lot’s of ridiculous for everyone – lots of under achievors lots of Schools wish as much if not more then ours, BUT we think we all have had this discussion before haven’t we? - -Have yourself a great day - -GEEZ
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@jayballer73 It’s a mindset. If you don’t live your life that way, that’s fine. To each their own. There are some though that live their lives differently. Your choice is to mock that alternative mindset. But you respond in predictable fashion. We fashion ourselves in the same breath as UK, Duke, and UNC. Those are our peers. Heck, I’ve seen folks argue here that we’re a better program than those others.
In the last three decades - UK 3 NCs; UNC 4 NCs; Duke 5 NCs. Kansas just one.
One can be happy and thankful but not satisfied.
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@HighEliteMajor It does hurt that 3 of those UNC NCs are with our old coach. Three! The only coach to win 3 since Self has been at KU. Was it the UNC brand that pushed Roy over the top or did he just leave Kansas as he was hitting his prime coaching years?
I personally appreciate consistency so I wouldn’t trade The Streak for one national championship and a trip to the NIT. But two NCs? I’d make that deal.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 It’s a mindset. If you don’t live your life that way, that’s fine. To each their own. There are some though that live their lives differently. Your choice is to mock that alternative mindset. But you respond in predictable fashion. We fashion ourselves in the same breath as UK, Duke, and UNC. Those are our peers. Heck, I’ve seen folks argue here that we’re a better program than those others.
In the last three decades - UK 3 NCs; UNC 4 NCs; Duke 5 NCs. Kansas just one.
One can be happy and thankful but not satisfied.
and your choice is to constantly bitch and wine , So if your so un happy about the way the program is then what have you done? - -Have your E-Mailed the athletic Dept attention Coach Self ? - -Have you Called and spoke to Coach Self about how your un happy with what he has doe with the ELITE talent that we have had ? - - Have you taken the time and spoke With Coach about your dis-pleasure the way he has handled the program and his lack of success with the program? - Have you offered your services and told him you could give him some insight on how to make the program so much better and tell him how to win those Championships?
You come across to the point of that your thinking is that they just automatically drop these Championships in your lap , that it is just a given that when w decide we want a Championship then BAM/PRESTO/DONE.
Your always so quick to critize the program and it’s lack of success, you don’t think coach wouldn’t love to win multiple Championships ? What you think the Coach and Staff just wake up some morning and say oh screw it , let’s not win the Championship this year , I mean after all we have one ONE - - good to go? lmao Or you think these players just say ehhh WTF it’s ok we won ONE Championship - who needs another ?
There is a lot that goes into someone winning a Championship - - your seeding , Health of the team , how your playing at that particular time , how the game goes , a turnover here , a turnover there , foul trouble – The tourney is one MAJOR CRAP SHOOT, - A team can be dominant throughout the entire year and still not end up winning the Championship. - -One example would be , don’t remember the year for sure but - -the UNLV team that went unbeaten throughout the entire season like 26-0 ? maybe? - total Domination with Larry Johnson that year - -you don’t think they thought they wasn’t winning that title? - What Happened ?
It just depends on who is on a roll at the time , again a crap shoot Hell if it is that easy you talk about all of the ELITE talent why hasn’t UK - - UNC – DUKE won even more then they have , these Schools have ELITE - -ELITE year after year after year , UK has either the top ranked class practically yearly , Duke right there too why haven’t they won even more then they have - -ELITE talent right ? - -is it because of poor coaching? - How many Championships did Ol Roy win when he was at KU ? - -ZERO - he had Elite talent here.
Do you think KU was a dominant team the year with Danny when we won the Championship in 88? - - Hell no, yet we just got on a roll at the time , things feel in place for us. Higher rated teams/seeds got knocked off that year for us - - everything just feel into place. - -How many times in a normal year do you think we won the Championship with that team and players we had?
Hell ya everyone here would love for us to win more Championships then we have - -but we don’t constantly talk crap about Coach -some are just never happy , be glad what w DO have. - -I know about 200 other Schools would love to have the success this School has and the Coach we have.
Bottom line is at the end of the day. Season - there is only ONE winner. , Everyone else ends up with a loss, or as some might think or believe losers - -Everyone can’t end the Season with a Championship. - -If your so unhappy with the way Coach has done here lack of Success or Championships - -then why stay? - - or would you just hang around and whaler around in your misery and continue to bitch about what KU hasn’t done? - just insane. Have a great day
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@jayballer73 Deep breath … one, two, three … release.
Again, one can be happy and thankful, but not satisfied.
It’s how folks achieve greatness in whatever they do. Kobe passed away. Do you think that guy was ever really satisfied with what he did? Do you think Self ever feels satisfied?
You, of course, completely ignore the point regarding the pursuit of ultimate success. Maybe wired differently. That’s fine.
But the tourney is not one major crapshoot. A complete myth. In the last 30 years, UK, KU, Duke, and UNC have won 11 NCs. Over one-third of the titles. UConn won four times. A team (Florida) went back to back. And Nova won two of three. Of course, there’s a lot of risk. Folks like to say crapshoot. But major programs win most every time. Michigan St., UCLA, Virginia, Louisville, Syracuse, Maryland.
In the last 30 years, there a have been no real Cinderella champs like NC State, KU or Nova in the 80s. Arizona won in 1997 (ugh) as a five seed. UConn though was a 7 seed in 2014 so that probably qualifies. So maybe one. The myth that is perpetuated about title winners is derived from the 80s. The last three decades is much different.
We perpetuate the myth because it’s Self serving (yes, capital S). The myth helps Roy’s legacy here, too.
No doubt, this isn’t like the CFB alleged playoff where top teams are placed there. And the more games create greater risk. But when four teams have won 16 of the 30 titles (UConn, Duke, UNC, UK) and you chip in two others (Florida and Nova) that won two each, that’s 20 of 30 or an amazing 66.7%, that completely defeats the Self-serving narrative. six teams won 2/3s of the titles. Think about that when you’re shooting craps.
We’ve wildly underachieved … WILDLY. Self more than Roy. Roy’s first 5 seasons were not easy was what Self came into. Roy took a team that went on probation. But let’s just treat them equally. We’ve wildly underachieved from NC standpoint over the last 30 seasons.
Truth.
Now, again, happy and thankful (very thankful), but not satisfied.
As an old friend used to say here, “capisce?”
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Glass 1/4 empty versus 3/4 full.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 Deep breath … one, two, three … release.
Again, one can be happy and thankful, but not satisfied.
It’s how folks achieve greatness in whatever they do. Kobe passed away. Do you think that guy was ever really satisfied with what he did? Do you think Self ever feels satisfied?
You, of course, completely ignore the point regarding the pursuit of ultimate success. Maybe wired differently. That’s fine.
But the tourney is not one major crapshoot. A complete myth. In the last 30 years, UK, KU, Duke, and UNC have won 11 NCs. Over one-third of the titles. UConn won four times. A team (Florida) went back to back. And Nova won two of three. Of course, there’s a lot of risk. Folks like to say crapshoot. But major programs win most every time. Michigan St., UCLA, Virginia, Louisville, Syracuse, Maryland.
In the last 30 years, there a have been no Cinderella champs like NC State, KU or Nova in the 80s. Arizona won in 1997 (ugh) as a five seed. The myth that is perpetuated about title winners is derived from the 80s. The last three decades is much different.
We perpetuate the myth because it’s Self serving (yes, capital S). The myth helps Roy’s legacy here, too.
No doubt, this isn’t like the CFB alleged playoff where top teams are placed there. And the more games create greater risk. But when three different teams have won 16 of the 30 titles (UConn, Duke, UNC, UK) and you chip in two others (Florida and Nova) that won two each, that’s 20 of 30 or an amazing66.7%, that completely defeats the Self-serving narrative. six teams won 2/3s of the titles. Think about that when you’re shooting craps.
We’ve wildly underachieved … WILDLY. Self more than Roy. Roy’s first 5 seasons were not easy was what Self came into. Roy took a team that went on probation. But let’s just treat them equally. We’ve wildly underachieved from NC standpoint over the last 30 seasons.
Truth.
Now, again, happy and thankful (very thankful), but not satisfied.
As an old friend used to say here, “capisce?”
it’s pointless trying to talk to you - - it’s your story BUB you just keep riding with that - -hope you enjoy I see no sense in your failed sense of humor - one - -two - -breath my ass. ONE Kobie was very Satisfied thanks. Talking to you is like talking to a fricken blade of grass - oh wait might be better talking to the - -wait grass - - HEM - that is you isn’t it? - - good – ONE – -TWO – - THREE - - breathe GOD I enjoy people like you - -your so funny , I like that I really do - -Love the laugh you bring to me - -thank you so much for that - good for the Soul , are you in the comedian business ? - - NO ? - -dammit I hate it when that happens.
So anyways where were we again? - -Oh ya love the way to deflect - - and yes it is a crap shoot not matter how you try and twist it around to fit your story BUT again you just keep riding your pony ok - -whatever gets your boat to float ok - -or as a person I saw - - Capisce? - -thinks for the word for the day – keep on telling your jokes - - I LOVE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR.
Now it’s time to stop our lovely cross discussion ok? - Cause the other KU friends on here don’t need to keep seeing the senseless babble - you hang on to your little train of thoughts - -I’m sure you will go far with it and I’ll just mosey off into the sunset from this - okie doke ? - -Capisce? - -See good for you , you showed me an old word that I thought was long gone but how silly of me thank you so much. - -Now I know you will just HAVE to respond so go ahead - -get it over with so this little conversation is done.
Myself as all others I’m sure am growing old with this , I’m just saying it for others here Time to STOP. have a great day
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@jayballer73 So I take it you don’t agree with my opinion, my numbers, and the analysis of the last 30 years? I think that’s what you’re trying to say.
Actually, with Kobie, there’s even a video called “never satisfied.” It was something he was known for. Constant pursuit of perfection. I found this quote on Kobie without much difficulty from a Forbes article, “Throughout Kobe Bryant’s 20-year career in the NBA, he was known for his exhaustive work ethic and never being satisfied with his accomplishments despite achieving everything possible as a professional basketball player.”
The highest of achievers are never satisfied. That’s why folks that have started some of the largest companies don’t just quit and retire on the millions. It’s why some folks with talent don’t make it. It’s why some achieve greatness and some don’t. But I sense that this doesn’t resonate with you.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 So I take it you don’t agree with my opinion, my numbers, and the analysis of the last 30 years? I think that’s what you’re trying to say.
Actually, with Kobie, there’s even a video called “never satisfied.” It was something he was known for. Constant pursuit of perfection. I found this quote on Kobie without much difficulty from a Forbes article, “Throughout Kobe Bryant’s 20-year career in the NBA, he was known for his exhaustive work ethic and never being satisfied with his accomplishments despite achieving everything possible as a professional basketball player.”
The highest of achievers are never satisfied. That’s why folks that have started some of the largest companies don’t just quit and retire on the millions. It’s why some folks with talent don’t make it. It’s why some achieve greatness and some don’t. But I sense that this doesn’t resonate with you.
There you are, I knew you wouldn’t let me down. You just couldn’t resist could you ? - -oh well have a great day - - - AGAIN ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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What’s wrong with never being satisfied? In the sports world that is. If we win the NC, what should Bill and company do? Celebrate for a little bit then get back to work for another. Striving for excellence is what you’re supposed to do, especially in a program such as KU.
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I cannot comprehend for a moment how a competitor striving to be better has anything to do with fans being happy (which HEM falsely calls “satisfied” and disparages as if it meant “complacent”).
All I was addressing was whether I have had a wonderful time being a fan over the past 30 years and what a turnaround it was from the dark days after the 1973 Final 4. Somehow that made me the target of a snide dismissal of my dreams as a fan.
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@mayjay oh no!! I was not at all trying to come across like that, if you were talking about me. If you were my bad I’m sorry. I was replying to another person.
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@rockchalkwyo Not you at all!
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 So I take it you don’t agree with my opinion, my numbers, and the analysis of the last 30 years? I think that’s what you’re trying to say.
Actually, with Kobie, there’s even a video called “never satisfied.” It was something he was known for. Constant pursuit of perfection. I found this quote on Kobie without much difficulty from a Forbes article, “Throughout Kobe Bryant’s 20-year career in the NBA, he was known for his exhaustive work ethic and never being satisfied with his accomplishments despite achieving everything possible as a professional basketball player.”
The highest of achievers are never satisfied. That’s why folks that have started some of the largest companies don’t just quit and retire on the millions. It’s why some folks with talent don’t make it. It’s why some achieve greatness and some don’t. But I sense that this doesn’t resonate with you.
Kobe Bryant was an absolute assassin, never satisfied, and a bigtime pain in the ass for anyone that he played. That aside, however, I am pretty damn satisfied with what KU has achieved basketballwise in, say, the past 37 years.
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I like to think about it this way: statistically speaking, we are due for a NC.
Obviously, not every power 5 team that wins a conference championship wins a national championship. But the majority of national champions have been power 5 teams and also won their conference championship. So it would seem like, the more conference championships we win, the better our chances of winning a National Championship.
However, this correlation hasn’t held up for KU, yet.
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Looking at that list again…
If you are a Pac12 team, damn…
Anyway, there is serious imbalance in the NCAA M Basketball championships.
20 years:- Big 10 + Big 12 + Pac 12 = 2 championships.
- SEC + Big East + ACC = 17 championships
- All other conferences combined = 1
It doesn’t get much better if you go back 30, 40 years, until you get just a few years past the UCLA era. Really from 1982 on, it’s an ACC vs Big East challenge.
Has this been good for college basketball? Does this list of champions accurately depict the nature of college basketball over the past 2 decades?
The answer has to be no. KU is most definitely underrepresented based on their record and accomplishments in conference. Compare this to say the number of players entered into the NBA by conference and I think the disparity is more evident. That’s not to say the Big12 would have 8 championships in 20 years… but they would have more than 1 based on records and talent.
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@bskeet Michigan State in the same category if the only test is national championships. 2 in the last 41 years, and only 1 despite 7 F4s since 1998. 10 conference reg season or tourn championships in that time. For those who are bitter about lost opportunities, they have been more disappointing since they got closer more times.
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@bskeet Looks to me like the refs are paid by ESPN and make sure East Coast is always on top! Just kidding… Kind of.
Funny considering in the NBA the West is usually stronger.
Roy’s trajectory as a coach would make it seem that it is easier to win the big dance from the east as he had lots of successful years here with nada and then moves east and bags 3. I don’t think he is that much better of a coach at UNC than he was here.
