Big 12 Suspensions
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I guess Silvio’s is about right. I am surprised Dave did not get more.
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Anybody see long in the fray?
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Man silvio’s sincere statement reminds of all he has been through here. Hopefully he can put this behind him.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
Hell yeah https://twitter.com/sam_vecenie/status/1220131846320558080?s=21
Sam is awesome. A quality twitter follow in case anyone here isn’t already…
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Tristan gonna be getting minutes at the 5 now.
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Self will have to plan resting Doke around TV timeouts. He already is playing over 30 minutes a game (6 of last 8).
Tristan makes sense defensively with his length but it will be interesting to see if he can operate the offense at that position. At least Self has 4 days to figure that out.
Moss starts, 4 guards. Just Braun & Enaruna off the bench. Going to be an interesting game
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BeddieKU23 said:
Man silvio’s sincere statement reminds of all he has been through here. Hopefully he can put this behind him.
Not being too cynical, but as @approxinfinity pointed out, that statement was surely crafted for him. That’s ok. I understand why.
I’m sure he’s sorry. That’s a given for me. I’m sure everyone’s sorry when they do stupid things. But he has completely embarrassed KU basketball at a really bad time for more embarrassment, much of which centers on his dealings with KU (via his guardian).
I just don’t want to see him play here again. My opinion. I know that most probably disagree. This isn’t a felony, or a crime against humanity, he didn’t hurt anyone – I get that. He stood over a guy, then got caught up in the melee I which he was an active participant (I’m always good with someone defending themselves; he was more active than that. He pursued too), then inexplicably picked up a chair over his head as if he was going to use it. That’s what this was. The worst part is the reflection on our program.
This was too much for me, coupled with what his recruitment has brought to us. I’d like to see him play elsewhere next season and transfer. A fresh start for him, too. Hopefully, as with many folks that make mistakes, they learn and are better for it. I bet that’s the case here.
I will say, though, that Bill Self is to blame here in large part. The act of standing over the opposing player was the act that got this going. It was the first negative thing DeSousa did. Those acts in the past have never been objectively punished by Self. I’ve never seen him get really angry with a player that has done that before. That’s a big consideration for me.
If Self banned that conduct, made it completely unacceptable. A player will get an internal suspension for it, it wouldn’t happen. Self has never made any statement about that being a prohibited conduct.
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@HighEliteMajor I tend to agree with you on the standing over a player…and what has Self done to discourage that. We don’t really know. I disagree with wishing Silvio would go elsewhere, but I understand your logic. With all of that has gone on, he may do that on his own. This suspension goes a long ways in ending his season. It’s hard to see how he improves without getting in some games and gaining some confidence and earning some with Self. Unless there is an injury, he will most likely just be an emergency 5 in the Dance. I still hold out hope that he can be an important player for us next year.
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Doke did it once, once! Now,
think self had something to do w/that! Jeez! These kids have been great. Anybody listen to hawk talk? Some of you try to find fault.
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At least there was a Statement. Haven’t seen a peep from the Kansas St coaches or players. Where’s their accountability?
This is definitely Strike #2 since he’s been here. Strike 1 you can debate how much is his fault, Strike 2 you can’t.
The chair photo will always be there. Definitely a black eye to the program.
Where was the accountability from K-St’s assistants to stop the players on the bench from engaging Silvio? Silvio made a bad choice (standing over, taunting) and followed it with more bad choices. Hard to pin that on Self but I suppose you can if you want. Self did get in the melee and try and stop him. He wasn’t absent once it got out of hand.
A 12 game suspension should be sufficient deterrent to this kind of acts. We have no idea what he’s said to the guys behind closed doors regarding taunting, etc.
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When you want an opinion or judgment that is absolutely meaningless, consider our opinions on an official’s call in a basketball game. We can moan and complain all we want, and we can use video replay to make our case that an official’s call was correct or incorrect. Yet it doesn’t matter. The official’s call always stands and cannot be changed, no matter how right and righteous we outsiders believe we are.
What matters in an official’s call are two things: the rule as written and the official’s interpretation and enforcement of the rule. Right or wrong, the official’s call is the law of the court and cannot be changed or challenged. The rule governs, and the official enforces the rule. It can only be opined upon, criticized or agreed with by outsiders.
The same is true with regard to a fight in a basketball game. A fight might offend our sensibilities and draw our ire, but the ultimate decisions regarding the actions of those involved in a fight rest with the on-court rules, the officials on the floor, the conference and the schools. The rest of us can have our opinions, but our opinions don’t matter.
Fights are governed by Rule 10 of the NCAA’s basketball rules of play. If a player is deemed to have participated in a fight, he is ejected from that game and suspended for the next game. Essentially, that is a one-game penalty. The rules actually contemplate a player being involved in more than one fight during a season. Rule 10 states that a player will be suspended for the season if he is deemed to have participated in a second fight in the same season. That is instructive.
Monmouth’s George Papas and college basketball’s most infamous dunk The rules also cover leaving the bench during a fight. The only person who is allowed to leave the bench during a fight is the head coach. Any player or assistant coach who leaves the bench during a fight is subject to ejection. The rules do not mandate a suspension for leaving the bench.
Those rules were on display Tuesday night during an ugly brawl in the Kansas State-Kansas game at Allen Fieldhouse. The game was over, with Kansas leading by over 20 points and only deep bench players and walk-ons on the floor. It was “garbage time.” As Silvio De Sousa crossed half court with the ball, Kansas was set to run the clock out. Instead of simply allowing Kansas to run the clock out and end the game, DaJuan Gordon stole the ball from De Sousa and sprinted with the ball to the other end to score. That was unnecessary.
De Sousa, who lost the ball to Gordon, sprinted down the floor and blocked Gordon’s shot. That was unnecessary.
After the blocked shot, with the clock at 0:00 and the game literally over, De Sousa stood over Gordon, who had fallen to the floor, and taunted him. That was wholly unnecessary.
But none of that unnecessary stuff was a fight. It contributed to an atmosphere where a fight might break out, but none of it was a fight.
The fight started when Kansas State players, led by Antonio Gordon and James Love III, left the Kansas State bench and physically went after De Sousa on the baseline. De Sousa was knocked down, and the fight began. Kansas players entered the fray, at least one, David McCormack, to participate in the fight, others to break it up. Both head coaches and assistants were trying to break up the fight. The officials put themselves in harm’s way to break up the fight. Punches were thrown. De Sousa picked up a stool and held it over his head before dropping it behind him. It was an ugly mess, and it was totally unacceptable.
The officials went to the monitor to determine which players participated in the fight and who had left the bench. De Sousa, McCormack, Antonio Gordon and Love were all deemed to have participated in the fight, and everyone else was deemed to have left the bench. The officials then put time back on the clock, brought the head coaches and players on the floor at the end of the game (minus those who had been ejected) and had those players inbound the ball and finish the game. While the rules might call for that or allow it, it was a ridiculous sight after such an ugly, disgusting brawl. It was unnecessary.
After the game, we were all breathless and emotional in responding to the ugliness of the fight.
You heard it all: It is unacceptable. There is no place for such behavior in college basketball. This will not be tolerated. De Sousa should never wear a uniform in college again. Punishments should be swift and severe. Yet another embarrassment for Kansas after the NCAA notice of allegations, Snoop Dogg and now this. Kansas fought for De Sousa’s eligibility after the FBI investigation, then he does this. Every issue was collated with this fight and rolled into one. It was First Take on steroids, and very little of it centered on the rules and precedent.
The rules make it clear. De Sousa, McCormack, Antonio Gordon and Love were participants in the fight and are suspended for their team’s next game. Those who left the bench but were not ruled to have participated in the fight are not subject to suspension under the rules. That is the minimum sanction. The only ones with authority to add to those sanctions are the conference (the Big 12) and the two schools involved. This isn’t about perception, the NCAA notice of allegations, Snoop Dogg or anything else. It is solely about participation in the fight. Anything more is inappropriate and wrong.
Working together, the Big 12 office, Kansas and Kansas State agreed upon suspensions for the players involved in the fight. De Sousa was suspended for 12 games, Love for eight games, Antonio Gordon for three games and McCormack for two games. Those who left the bench were reprimanded.
Some thought the suspensions were too light. Others thought the suspensions were reasonable. But, a day later, the tone of the discussion seemed far more tempered.
My opinion? There was plenty of blame to go around, and several contributing factors to the fight, but no excuses. Those who participated in the fight were wrong, period. Yet, as all reasonable people can agree, once we establish that the fight was wrong and those involved should be sanctioned, it is also useful to examine the factors that led to the fight and how such a fight can be avoided in the future.
First, when the clock is running out in a blowout, let the clock run out. Don’t try for a steal. It is unnecessary. And, while the officials did a great job overall in dealing with the fight and did not make a mistake in this, I would consider calling a foul on the defender going for the steal. The offensive team was clearly trying to run out the clock. If you call the foul, you avoid a potential bad situation and discourage the same thing in the future. Reasonable minds can differ on this thought, but I think it would be a good way for an official to handle a situation. Remember, we saw the same thing in the Kansas-Monmouth game earlier this season.
Second, don’t try to defend your basket after the steal when you were running out the clock. It is unnecessary. Did it lead to the fight? No, but if you let it go, there is no fight.
Third, stop the taunting. When you dunk on someone or block a shot, that’s great. Celebrate it with your teammates. Just leave your opponent out of it. Taunting an opponent doesn’t make the dunk or block more impressive. One thing you can guarantee, we will see taunting technical fouls more often going forward, and perhaps we should.
Fourth, let’s stop calling the players “kids.” They are not kids, they are adults. They are men. Calling them “kids” infantilizes them. After all, the NCAA calls this Men’s Basketball and not Boys’ Basketball or Kids’ Basketball. These are young men.
Lastly, the suspensions were within reason. Would I have argued if they were a bit longer or shorter? No. I was unmoved and unpersuaded by calls to suspend De Sousa for the season or talk that he should never wear a college uniform again. Could the result of the fight have been worse and people, including spectators, injured? Yes, that could have happened. But it didn’t happen. The Big 12 had to sanction what happened, not what could have happened.
We have condemned the action, and those involved have been sanctioned. For Kansas and Kansas State, the next step is to make sure the punished players are taken care of and get the help and support they need. De Sousa has been pilloried and will be followed by the menacing photos of him with the stool forever. That will not be easy to deal with. These are young men who made errors in judgment in a heated situation. They were wrong. But they should not be thrown out with yesterday’s trash. De Sousa is a young man who made a mistake, not a punching bag for those upset with Kansas or the NCAA. He needs proper support, as do McCormack, Antonio Gordon and Love.
It was ugly and unacceptable, but it is over. Fortunately, nobody got hurt. We should all move on having learned from it and being better for it.
-Jay Bilas
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@dylans Oh great, I agree with Bilas again. Thanks for posting that though!
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@DanR crazy that a Dukie has the most level headed take. Of course not all of them did, but Bilas isn’t too terrible.
I like him most nights; can’t stand him other nights. 
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I’ve been looking this morning for some form of apology from James Love III of K-State. I would think that would be appropriate. Is there one out there?
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Excellent article by Bilas!
Three, two, one…waiting for a particular head to explode…
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Doke did it once, once! Now,
think self had something to do w/that! Jeez! These kids have been great. Anybody listen to hawk talk? Some of you try to find fault.Well, and some discount the power and influence of a coach. Some try not to find the “why”. Some seek to simply and think that negative stuff happens in a vacuum. When conduct is prohibited and there are real penalties – when a coach understands where stuff like that can lead – it can have a great impact on whether the conduct occurs. Poor sportsmanship and conduct have been tolerated in my view. Others may disagree.
This is one of those, “See what can happen when you don’t have strict rules” situations.
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Bilas is really a voice of reason on this and it’s well thought out. Perhaps the best statement I’ve seen anywhere on this entire deal. Vitale calling it “criminal” was laughable.
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@HighEliteMajor I agree that this is good from Bilas. The only argument I’d really have with it is that the K-State kid who initiated the actual fight portion of the incident should have 12 games as well but since it’s starting after he is medically cleared to play maybe it will be close to that.
I’ve also definitely been guilty of the “kids” stuff. I tend to do that because of the research that’s come out around the brain and particularly the development of the pre-frontal cortex (long term thinking/decision making center) in boys/men. You’ve called me out on this before and the more I think about it the more I think you (and Bilas) are right on this. Accountability is good and calling players kids can work to excuse their actions and ultimately remove their overall agency in the system.
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BeddieKU23 said:
At least there was a Statement. Haven’t seen a peep from the Kansas St coaches or players. Where’s their accountability?
This is definitely Strike #2 since he’s been here. Strike 1 you can debate how much is his fault, Strike 2 you can’t.
The chair photo will always be there. Definitely a black eye to the program.
Where was the accountability from K-St’s assistants to stop the players on the bench from engaging Silvio? Silvio made a bad choice (standing over, taunting) and followed it with more bad choices. Hard to pin that on Self but I suppose you can if you want. Self did get in the melee and try and stop him. He wasn’t absent once it got out of hand.
A 12 game suspension should be sufficient deterrent to this kind of acts. We have no idea what he’s said to the guys behind closed doors regarding taunting, etc.
This is why I’m still worried about the game @ Kstate. Their players, coaches and fans are seeing that outside of 2 players there are no consequences for an entire team attacking a player for taunting. There doesn’t appear to be any remorse or reflection from that program into their part in the craziness.
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If there’s a similar incident in Manhattan, this will be the last basketball game I watch. If I want to watch boxing or MMA, I’ll watch boxing or MMA.
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Well , I know already that this is more likely then not , not the best way to be taking these suspensions I get that , so no need for anyone to find the time to tell me. I realize shouldn’t look at them like this BUT:
Seeing as how these suspensions have become a reality , and there is nothing that can be done about them , then might as well stand back and reflect how this will effect the team. How will we approach./ attack
So if you stand back and look at things with Silvio , you have to look in reality his suspension really shouldn’t effect us that much because his playing time was almost non factor anyways, really not much production at this time anyways on either end. What was his minutes around 5 ? - -So not having him really is not a change from where we were at before the Suspension. - As Far as Dave , most on here has made it clear that you think we are better with the 4-1 anyways right ? - I agree just more fluid, yet Coach was still STARTING him but how long has he been in after the start ? - Coach usually pulls him by the 1`st TV timeout and were running with the 4-1 right ? - - So with him being suspended for 2 games just means we start the game running with 4-1 really not much of a change there then anyways. - The only thing is , we won’t have him to break Doke and gonna be a Challenge for those 2 games if Doke gets in foul trouble Gonna miss some rebounding for those 2 games. - -Considering who we play for these 2 games Dave is out I think we can survive. Tennessee & Okie State right ?
All I’m saying is and not trying to make light of a bad situation/suspensions is that in the overall grand scheme of things that actually it really shouldn’t effect us with the outcome of these games anyways all thing considered. Now would of been a much different story I think if Garrett would of been suspended because he plays a much bigger part in every phase of play it could of had some effect - - just my thoughts. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@nuleafjhawk I don’t think there will be a similar incident but I do worry that fans will take things too far. I would not attend that game as a Kansas fan. I’m biased because I view their fans as borderline inappropriate just about every time we play there and this is just going to add fuel to that fire. Add to that the school/program/coaches doing nothing to dampen that fire and I just get a bad feeling.
The most likely outcome is a normal game with some inappropriate fan comments/chants and signs and nothing more.
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benshawks08 said:
@nuleafjhawk I don’t think there will be a similar incident but I do worry that fans will take things too far. I would not attend that game as a Kansas fan. I’m biased because I view their fans as borderline inappropriate just about every time we play there and this is just going to add fuel to that fire. Add to that the school/program/coaches doing nothing to dampen that fire and I just get a bad feeling.
The most likely outcome is a normal game with some inappropriate fan comments/chants and signs and nothing more.
YA I wouldn’t be going. I am sure there is gonna be some things that are going to make things very tense.
I would be willing to bet there will be extra Security , I got a feeling this will be a real foul fest even if it is warranted or not. - The officials are gonna call this game so tight as to not let things get out offhand. Cause I could just see the 1st HARD foul intentional or not things could very easily get out of hands. - - ROCK CHALK ALLDAY LONG BABY
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@benshawks08 The KSU fans are without question over the line, chanting F bombs on national TV so I have to mute it. The group that dressed up as monkeys and threw bananas at the court when we first started playing African Americans. When I was in highschool they got in trouble for hang chickens from the rafters by their neck and sacrificing chickens in the parking lot pregame. Not to mention spitting and throwing stuff at our players, assaulting a player after the game. What else can they do besides bring in a gun??
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@HighEliteMajor Its really not surprising they haven’t released anything. Same administration and fan base that doesn’t take ownership of any loss, it’s always someone cheated or the refs. I’d be shocked if in their eyes they believe they did any wrong. I’ve been involved with basketball for over 25 years as I’ve never seen a team call off the dogs with two minutes to go, put in multiple walk ons and get the hell fouled outta them, full court pressed with starters still in.
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@jayballer73 You seem to frequent other teams fan sites. I’m curious if you have explored what the KSU fans are saying about this.
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kjayhawks said:
@benshawks08 The KSU fans are without question over the line, chanting F bombs on national TV so I have to mute it. The group that dressed up as monkeys and threw bananas at the court when we first started playing African Americans. When I was in highschool they got in trouble for hang chickens from the rafters by their neck and sacrificing chickens in the parking lot pregame. Not to mention spitting and throwing stuff at our players, assaulting a player after the game. What else can they do besides bring in a gun??
One of my high school buddies, now just Facebook friends, said after the fight, via Facebook, “Oh baby I want to fight a KU fan now!” There’s a trashy culture problem in that town
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@rockchalkwyo I have a friend that was jumped at a game in Methattan. It was about 15 years ago when they were still really bad. Place was 3/4s empty after a convincing KU win and my buddy was attacked in the bathroom. He’s a very quiet and I’ve never seen him get too fired up at anything including a KU game. So it ls hard for me to believe it was anything but random meth heads.
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@kjayhawks that’s so sad. I was jumped also in Manhattan. I lived there from 2008-2011. I was 21 leaving aggieville and walking home. A brand new black Escalade pulled up and out came 5 huge ass men. They messed my friend up pretty bad and broke open my head. Luckily a cop pulled up and separated it. I was drunk so I didn’t know the correct protocol on how to handle it. Once we got home, a quick 10 minutes later, we called the cops. The cops came over and said that WE are the lucky ones for not being charged and there’s nothing that they can do.
The next day when I had my head on straight I knew something was messed up. So I looked up pictures of the KSU basketball team and guess what. It was them!!! God damn I hate them. They are trash at the highest purity.
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Hawk8086 said:
@jayballer73 You seem to frequent other teams fan sites. I’m curious if you have explored what the KSU fans are saying about this.
really not much other then what you would think they would be saying. such as " KU has so many trashy players , no wonder that school is looked at the way it does " - -OR " Wonder if Self pays DeSousa or not Pay DeSousa while on his suspension " - - " KU is just THUG U " - and ya da - - ya da - -ya da pretty typical. Talking about how if it would of been them they would of done the exact same thing stealing the ball typical BS
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Got a beer bottle thrown at me in Aggieville once just for wearing a blue (not even KU!) shirt. Good times all around.
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I have heard a lot of opinions about the incident. Here is mine. There are no fights, no suspensions, or even any hard feelings, if a punk named Gordon does not pull a bush league play while Silvio is running out the clock. I am sure Self has drilled it into the Jayhawk players to never run up the score or needlessly embarrass the opposing team. Remember the BGreene dunk? Squeaky said he told his players to stand down in the last few seconds. He is either a liar or his players pay no attention to him. Remember the Monmouth game earlier this season when another punk pulled a bush league play against Tristan dribbling out the last few seconds of a 110-55 blow out? I believe just maybe the Jayhawks are real tired of bush league punks coming into Allen Fieldhouse and after getting their asses kicked all over the floor for 40 minutes, they think they are getting the last laugh by being a punk. Bottom line is this: the punk Gordon is the one and only culprit in this melee.
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@rockchalkwyo @FarmerJayhawk Aggieville is trash if you ask me, too many idiots especially if anything is going on out at fort Riley. Hundreds of army dudes that want to get hammered and start fights. I’m lucky I’m just big enough at 6’2 230 (I’m getting fat lol) not a ton people looking for trouble come my way.
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I’d bet large sums of money if by chance they beat us in that shit hole there is a fight between their fans and our players.
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Right all the army guys want to do is get drunk and start fights. Sure. Great info.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I just don’t want to see him play here again. My opinion. I know that most probably disagree. This isn’t a felony, or a crime against humanity, he didn’t hurt anyone – I get that. He stood over a guy, then got caught up in the melee I which he was an active participant (I’m always good with someone defending themselves; he was more active than that. He pursued too), then inexplicably picked up a chair over his head as if he was going to use it. That’s what this was. The worst part is the reflection on our program.
This was too much for me, coupled with what his recruitment has brought to us. I’d like to see him play elsewhere next season and transfer. A fresh start for him, too. Hopefully, as with many folks that make mistakes, they learn and are better for it. I bet that’s the case here.
Is he going to graduate this year where he could transfer out and play elsewhere immediately? I just can’t see him sitting out another year for any reason. I feel its grad transfer, play for KU, or go pro.
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@HighEliteMajor not all but most, especially the pissed off 18 year olds just outta basic. I have a friend that’s a county sheriffs deputy up there and he says the crime over doubles when that place is full.
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@Hawk8086 I read some stuff on Bring on the Cats and got some laughs. Apparently because Weber told them to back off in the final seconds, according to Bruce himself. They get a pass for pressing and fouling hard the last TWO MINUTES, NOT SECONDS. Also apparently Silivio threw the chair at a KSU player according to them and for some reason no one mentioned Love actually starting the physical fight. Also Bruce wasn’t at mid court like he claimed apparently he was in the middle pulling guys out like Self and Co, their are just very sneaky lol.
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TMCats is over there talking trash, too.
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kjayhawks said:
@Hawk8086 I read some stuff on Bring on the Cats and got some laughs. Apparently because Weber told them to back off in the final seconds, according to Bruce himself. They get a pass for pressing and fouling hard the last TWO MINUTES, NOT SECONDS. Also apparently Silivio threw the chair at a KSU player according to them and for some reason no one mentioned Love actually starting the physical fight. Also Bruce wasn’t at mid court like he claimed apparently he was in the middle pulling guys out like Self and Co, their are just very sneaky lol.
Ya I heard the Weber weekly talk, he said he didn’t see anything , and didn’t even know what was going on - - he was on his way to shake Bill’s hand and then seen Bill and our Assistants running the other way. He said then He , ( Weber went and tackled Gordan ( Hell Weber couldn’t tackle a limp noodle ).
Then he say Gordan didn’t do anything wrong , talking about Gordon stealing the ball. He talked about how Gordon was taking things really hard , saying he was getting all this hate mail - - I’m sure. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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kjayhawks said:
Also Bruce wasn’t at mid court like he claimed apparently he was in the middle pulling guys out like Self and Co, their are just very sneaky lol.
More on the peripheral
Squeaky makes it a step further in. (Still rotating pictures and I can’t figure out how to straighten it)
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I have no issue with Weber’s role in the brawl. That picture shows him straining hard trying to hold that hidden guy back. As I described before, he ushered that guy and Love out that exit immediately after Love ducked away from the fight. By doing that quickly, Weber might have actually helped prevent fans from trying to retaliate or provoke Love if they saw him leaving.
Now, everyone knows I cannot abide Squeaky, but I can’t fault him for not diving deeply into the scrum–enough people were doing that.
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The tall guy in the black suit did what Weber should’ve been doing! Imo
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I would say that we got very lucky. Who knows, this team might now be on a mission - D-ing up, boxing out, rebounding, hitting wide open threes and the like. This could be a galvanizing thing for the team.
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@jayballer73 @kjayhawks That figures. One -sided and ignoring their part in the whole thing.
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@mayjay Very true what he did wasn’t bad. He grabbed Gordon on the peripheral of the fight and held him back. However, Bill from the other side of the court had run into the middle of the scrum and had both Silvio and McCormack by the jersey effectively ending the fight.
What no one sees in this is in the pre-game warmups the entire KU team is on the KSU side - some sit on the bench most are shooting; the entire KSU team is on the KU side doing the same except one player. Love was on the side the KU players were on, talking crap the whole time. Ironically next to a gal in an #unhandme shirt.
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@dylans Imagine that, lol
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I totally forgot Saturday is College Gameday in Lawrence…
The timing of this fight couldn’t have been worse lol. It’s going to be all they talk about in the lead up to our game.
