Kicking Players Off The Team Game Thread
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@HighEliteMajor The guys that stayed longer at KU (3-4 yrs), in general have done better and had longer NBA careers than the OADs. The exceptions will be Wiggs and Joel.
Stayed: Pierce, Rush, Chalmers, Collison, Raef, Pollard, Gooden, The Twins, Cole, Vaugn, Withy, Frank, Wayne?
OAD with strong NBA: Wiggs, Joel, Josh?, Oubre? (not sure the last two will be strong careers)
TRob is the outlier for one who stayed but never really stuck in the NBA. With his motor and rebounding, that one never made sense to me.
Wait and see: Devonte, Svi, and Frank
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@cragarhawk You said about Grimes, “But I would submit it’s more of an effort and attitude issue right now.” Agree completely. All you need to do is watch Agbaji go after a rebound and realize all Grimes has to do is give that effort. I’m sure the coaching staff has pointed this out to him. The lack of effort much of the time makes it curious to me why he holds his position in the starting lineup. I’ve never seen anything like this from coach Self in what he accepts from a player.
@Fightsongwriter Great list. It seems a no brainer to me for Q to stay here. The only thing that even causes us a second thought is the somewhat arbitrary #8 ranking. If he was #38, it would just be assumed that he’d stay. And I wonder if he’d still be starting if that were the case.
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@Fightsongwriter Oubre will be a 15 year guy.
Josh on the other hand, no bueno. He looks like he will get washed out soon.
You also forgot Henry. Who washed out. Diallo who seems like he is likely on a path to overseas. Cliff never had a chance. Selby washed right out.
OADs have not been good to Self. I don’t think you ever stop recruiting the best players though. You just can’t recruit sketchy ones. Which is basically all the ones we have landed… Which is why we are in the trouble we currently are in.
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Mitch showing up for Tech Saturday, who’s soft now?
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@Kcmatt7 You said, “OADs have not been good to Self.”
Maybe, if we are just looking from the outside, Self has not been good to OADs.
It’s long been my position. Self is not the best manager of the OAD player. We’ve had one really good one that fit our team, seemed to satisfy Bill Self (a big one), was not a drama queen, and was a team player – Josh Jackson.
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@Kcmatt7 actually i didn’t. I left off the wash outs. I prob should have left off josh.
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Josh and diallo have both been doing better.
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Selden has also been doing better in Chicago.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 You said, “OADs have not been good to Self.”
Maybe, if we are just looking from the outside, Self has not been good to OADs.
It’s long been my position. Self is not the best manager of the OAD player. We’ve had one really good one that fit our team, seemed to satisfy Bill Self (a big one), was not a drama queen, and was a team player – Josh Jackson.
Oh I fully agree with this.
Bill Self is a break them down, build them up coach. He is incapable of developing a player over just one year’s time.
From what I know about the program, Bill Self is as hard on his players as anyone in the country. Several times in the past 15 years has he almost literally come to blows with players. I do not think most OAD players respond well to this. Hell, basically no freshman respond to this under Self. Only the truly special players who come here with a chip on their shoulders have exceeded expectations as a freshman.
Because of Bill’s style of coaching and player development, I do not think OAD guys ultimately give him their best. They know all they have to do is survive Self, put up 10 points a game, flash some potential, and they are out of here. As Self put it with Josh, “he unpacked his bags.” Which is why JJ was the best OAD under Self to date.
It is certainly a problem with most of the OADs we recruit. Henry, Preston, Cliff, Diallo, Selby, Oubre and Wiggins were all guys who 100% took money already and knew they were going pro no matter what. So Self’s style doesn’t work with them. Calling those guys every name in the book is not going to motivate them. Challenging their manhood does nothing for them.
But, this is the style that Self has chosen for his program.
There is another style of coaching philosophy though. There is break them down. But then there is also what I’ll refer to as feeding the ego.
This is the K and Cal approach with young players.
These guys come in, knowing they are the greatest players in CBB. And K and Cal continue telling them that. They pat them on the back. The leave them in for 30 minutes a game and tell them no shot is a bad shot. Eventually, this does two things.
The first, it build their confidence. They aren’t worried if they screw up, they just continue playing basketball and will fix their mistakes later or learn from them for the next time.
The second, it creates a scenario where the players then crave praise. They need the praise. So they play harder. RJ plays harder because Zion got K’s praise for doing something because he needs the praise. Herro stays in the gym because Baker was getting praise for his shooting. The players start craving this praise. And that is how the coaches are able to push their buttons.
We have seen that this second strategy doesn’t always work. Some guys just aren’t competitive enough to push themselves. Sometimes freshman just aren’t physically capable of carrying a team. But, as we have seen when either of them are able to put together a special group of OADs, they become exceptional teams.
Now, back to Q. As we have talked about, Self has given him quite a long leash… But I sort of think that is a facade. Self is giving him PT. At the same time, I think Self is likely harder on him than anyone else on the team. What do you think film sessions are like? What do you think practices are like? I firmly believe Self absolutely destroyed Q’s confidence very early in the season. He broke him.
Watch just a minute of this video :
Have you, even once, seen Q do anything remotely close to anything in this video? Look at the flare. Look at the confidence. Look at the ELEVATION. Look at the attacking of the rim. You can see the talent. Hell, he looks 100 times more athletic in this video than at any point this season.
The Q we have right now looks like he had a head injury that made him forget how to play basketball. He seems so worried that he’s going to do something wrong and get the stick from Self that he’s not playing with any bit of confidence. He is so concerned with where he is supposed to be on the court, that making instinctual plays at this point is impossible.
To me, Q carries himself like a neglected child who only wants to here “I love you” from his dad. But he never did hear it. So now we are stuck with this lifeless version of Q who may never reach his full potential, and it certainly appears like he won’t this season. It’s unfortunate, as I think Q does have the abilities to be a great player, and I think this team is that one player short of being able to do something potentially special in the tournament…
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@Kcmatt7 nice write bud. Imagining those film sessions was not a pretty sight
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While I agree that Q looks like he is lacking in confidence more than anything else, I think the bigger culprit is the improved competition. His crossovers in those highlights just aren’t devastating his opponents in the same way in college. He can’t simply elevate over defenders on step backs. When has he ever beat anyone down the floor for a transition bucket? His speed just isn’t elite and that’s why we all love Dotson. Even vs. MSU, the game most regard as Q’s best of the year, all his buckets came on catch and shoot 3s (6-10). He didn’t go by people. He still only had 1 rebound.
Interestingly the one aspect from the highlight reel that is showing up on the court is his vision. He is routinely making at least one or two GREAT passes per game right now.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 You said, “OADs have not been good to Self.”
Maybe, if we are just looking from the outside, Self has not been good to OADs.
It’s long been my position. Self is not the best manager of the OAD player. We’ve had one really good one that fit our team, seemed to satisfy Bill Self (a big one), was not a drama queen, and was a team player – Josh Jackson.
I actually completely agree with this. Self has done his absolute best work with 3-4 year guys. The history speaks for itself.
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Q will never be fast like he appeared in high school. What is making it worse is that he cant make a jump shot. Anyone who has played knows that when your known as a shooter your first step becomes that much better because defenders are closing out fast on you. Nobody in their right mind is closing out fast on Q.
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@Kcmatt7 I agree with your characterization of HCBS’s approach of “break them down and build them up” - and, how it contrasts with K and Cal and how it may not work with perhaps more fragile egos. But, it seems that the issue may be more than just lack of confidence. It may be that Grimes doesn’t have quite the skill set or mental fortitude that his HS stats, the video and his class ranking would otherwise suggest. Perhaps competition (or lack thereof in Houston) as @benshawks08 suggests may be part of the problem.
When I look at the video, what I see is a decent handle, good vision and passing ability, a solid looking stroke, and pretty good hops. But, what I really don’t see is him attacking the rim - unless he has a clear path. In all but the last image, whenever he is driving toward the basket and there is a body somewhere in the way, he either falls away or throws up a floater. He simply doesn’t go at anyone with authority or purpose. And, that’s against players that were mostly smaller than him - at least not the size and bulk he is up against every game in D1. And, that has clearly been an issue during his tenure here - he seems to shy away from ANY kind of contact (whether driving, defending or rebounding).
Whatever the root cause, his lack of production across the board is actually stunning, esp. for someone as highly ranked as he was. There are 6 players on the team who have averaged between 26 and 33 minutes per game (including Vick for this purpose). Of those six, he is second to last in PPG (barely ahead of Garrett), last in RBs, next to last in assists, last in steals, last in FG%, last in FT% and second to last in 3pt%.
He is 4th on the team in total minutes played. Yet, he is 9th on the team in total offensive rebounds. He’s 6’5" and 210 lbs for goodness sake - on a team that needs everyone to contributed on the glass. He has just 11 offensive rebounds the entire season. He’s 6th on the team in steals. He has attempted just 38 FTs all season.
Confidence can affect your shot. It can affect whether or when you shoot. But, confidence shouldn’t really come into play fighting for position, battling for rebounds, diving for the loose balls and so on.
He may not ever be what we thought he would be - but he should and hopefully still can be much better that what he has shown through the first 26 games of his freshman year. Whether he is too broken, or whether he can be built back up, I guess time will tell…
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DCHawker said:
Confidence can affect your shot. It can affect whether or when you shoot. But, confidence shouldn’t really come into play fighting for position, battling for rebounds, diving for the loose balls and so on.
I can agree with or at least understand most of what you wrote. But this, I do not. Confidence influences your entire game. It’s funny how well a guy can play for an entire game if he hits a few shots to start the game. On both ends.
While I think to most, it looks as though Q has a lack of effort, I would argue that isn’t the case. He basically doesn’t contribute, as you pointed out. But I really don’t think it is due to a lack of effort. I think he has a lack of aggressiveness DUE to his lack of confidence. At this point, I think all of his basketball instincts are being second guessed.There are times it literally looks like he has never played the game, and it leaves you scratching your head. It isn’t like he has zero basketball IQ. You see him make a great pass almost every game.
The moment we see Q quit thinking and just start playing, he will be a 15 PPG, 5 Ast guy. I have no doubt that he is capable of it.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich I would have guessed Kirk Hinrich…
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@Kcmatt7 Excellent post above, and nice follow up from @DCHawker.
This is a puzzling case.
The “improved competition” might be an issue as @benshawks08 mentioned (and as @Texas-Hawk-10 has brought up Houston in particular). I don’t buy the Houston thing. the guy played AAU ball. I doubt Agbaji’s KC area competition was worse than Houston. Or Ellis/Frankamp’s Wichita competition when they played there.
But the competition thing generally may be the key – as more broadly referenced by @benshawks08. Guys who play in Chicago take a huge step up to D-1 competition. It’s a big difference.
Again, if he’s the #38 player, then we’re more patient.
Maybe, Grimes just isn’t that good yet. Overrated to begin with. Looked good at a certain level, but needs more time to push to the next level. Seems reasonable.
That could impact confidence, and create the mess between the ears we’ve suspected.
Patience is the key with all of that. The best thing for Q might be just getting the season over.
I’ve suspected he might be homesick, too. Looking for answers is all.
I’m sorry, though. I don’t care what it is, you can bust your a** for a rebound. You can block out. You can dive on the floor. If there is such mental fragility that you can’t do that, man, there are other lines of work.
We need to win. Q to the bench. Go with the guys that can give you the best chance to win. This is winning time. Development time has concluded.
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Q played 22 minutes last game - KJ played 24. And this was without Garrett. I think the process is well under way to fade Q as the season goes along.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 Excellent post above, and nice follow up from @DCHawker.
This is a puzzling case.
The “improved competition” might be an issue as @benshawks08 mentioned (and as @Texas-Hawk-10 has brought up Houston in particular). I don’t buy the Houston thing. the guy played AAU ball. I doubt Agbaji’s KC area competition was worse than Houston. Or Ellis/Frankamp’s Wichita competition when they played there.
But the competition thing generally may be the key – as more broadly referenced by @benshawks08. Guys who play in Chicago take a huge step up to D-1 competition. It’s a big difference.
Again, if he’s the #38 player, then we’re more patient.
Maybe, Grimes just isn’t that good yet. Overrated to begin with. Looked good at a certain level, but needs more time to push to the next level. Seems reasonable.
That could impact confidence, and create the mess between the ears we’ve suspected.
Patience is the key with all of that. The best thing for Q might be just getting the season over.
I’ve suspected he might be homesick, too. Looking for answers is all.
I’m sorry, though. I don’t care what it is, you can bust your a** for a rebound. You can block out. You can dive on the floor. If there is such mental fragility that you can’t do that, man, there are other lines of work.
We need to win. Q to the bench. Go with the guys that can give you the best chance to win. This is winning time. Development time has concluded.
The 2018 class was really bad. I’d say overall we are fortunate that Dotson was as advertised and Agbaji ended up a hidden gem. When you have Grimes in the top 15 and McCormack is top 35 that says it all about the class. Of course, none of that excuses Grimes not playing hard.
Basically there is Zion at the top, cataclysmic gulf then Barrett, then a titanic gulf to the rest. Oddly enough, Duke gets those top two guys. Color me shocked.
To your AAU point, Agbaji wasn’t even good in AAU. He barely played for Mokan from what I remember reading.
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@Kcmatt7 Holy crap. Who and where’s that guy we see in the mixtape video? Must be that the competition wasn’t up to snuff. Dallas area not known for good, quality players? K-Freeze! right? Agree with other posters…if he sees what Ochai does on the boards, no reason he can’t get in the mix. Unless it’s not in his nature. hopefully that’s fixable. He just seems like a guy who isn’t ready yet. that’s all. give him another summer to get stronger, learn how to assert himself. Hopefully he stays.
Edit: I see he’s from the Houston area. my bad. even worse!
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BeddieKU23 said:
Dotson is Frank reincarnated
I’m a monster Frank fan… but wow… Dot far exceeds Frank as a freshman. Not even close. We have to consider that Frank wasn’t a natural PG. Frank came to Lawrence as a volume scorer shooting guard. Remember how he struggled to adjust?
It’s so refreshing that Dot came to us already as a solid PG. I mentioned this early… I can’t recall a better freshman PG EVER at Kansas!
What I’m wondering… will his smaller size keep him in college for 4 years? Right now, I think we can keep him through his junior year. Of course, it always matters how we do in the NCAA tourney. When we go far it helps all our guys get more league attention.
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@drgnslayr 5 Stars baby!
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The Ochai situation is what I don’t understand. He seems like the best player on the floor at times. He’s so fast and strong and confident. How was he a red shirt? How is he doing what he’s doing now? When will the league catch up to him and start shutting him down? I just don’t get it.
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DCHawker said:
“He simply doesn’t go at anyone with authority or purpose.”
Maybe Grimes is too nice, ala Perry Ellis. He needs to get ornery!
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@benshawks08 When they first yanked off the red shirt…both Self and even his Mom commented on how much he had improved since he joined the team. I have to believe that this is truly part of the equation. Otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense at all.
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I think the mix tape shows his skills inside the 3-point line. Really all of his best moments besides vs Mich St. game have been inside the 3 pt line. If I made a list of players that should focus on the rest of their game, then look for the 3:
- Charlie
- Charles
- Chuck
- Grimes
I do think Grimes is big-time and will eventually get it rolling. And I have nothing against Charlie, but his shot looks quick, short and off from the get go, it kinda looks like nerves or ??? I’m not a coach, I just wish he would stop after 3 misses. Not on track today, so drive and dish. I really think Grimes could average close to 4 assists a game.
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@JayhawksandChill haha I like what you did there. I can always handle a guy not shooting well but you have to do the little things first. Grimes only averaging 2 rebounds at his size is a travesty. Charlie can be a good passer, he just needs to look for guys when he is off, which has been every game but 2.
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DCHawker said:
When I look at the video, what I see is a decent handle, good vision and passing ability, a solid looking stroke, and pretty good hops. But, what I really don’t see is him attacking the rim - unless he has a clear path. In all but the last image, whenever he is driving toward the basket and there is a body somewhere in the way, he either falls away or throws up a floater. He simply doesn’t go at anyone with authority or purpose. And, that’s against players that were mostly smaller than him - at least not the size and bulk he is up against every game in D1. And, that has clearly been an issue during his tenure here - he seems to shy away from ANY kind of contact (whether driving, defending or rebounding).
That paragraph highlights what I think happened to Q. Look back at the 2nd or 3rd game of the season. Every time he drove he got called for a charge. If memory serves this continued at a dwindling pace as he began to quit going at people. He wasn’t able to adapt to the faster, quicker, higher talent level of D1 ball quickly enough and its got into his head. Missing his outside shots didn’t help his cause any as well and he got tentative and sped up. In this particular case I don’t think Self tore him down I think he did it to himself and Self is trying, and probably praying, that he digs his way back out.
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@Kubie It seems like half of Q’s drives are charges. He’s slow. I had hoped he would be just reacting at this point in the season to speed him up some. It’s not the case though and he’s physically slow and thinking too much also.
