NY Post goes after Bill Self.
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Nike has some real dark ops work to do now
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BeddieKU23 said:
Nike has some real dark ops work to do now
I think Arizona ends up being the sacrificial lamb… Seems like too much to overcome.
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I’m hesitant to go all in on this just yet especially when the axe is looking at us as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a ton of dirt on him or just enough to not really give an accurate truth of his wrongdoing. And I expect lawyers etc to make it difficult enough as well
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Ugh. I’m trying not to be reactionary, but it’s difficult.
It seems year after year we read about Kansas and a recruit in some sort of trouble, or about money exchanging hands. I don’t follow other programs as i do Kansas, but i can’t imagine this sort of news is normal. I’d feel more positive if, for instance, a North Carolina fan could tell me they read the same thing every year.
I’m guessing they don’t.
The more I read, the more I’m convinced it’s time to cleanse the program.
I love Bill Self, but I would not be disappointed if he and his staff got the boot.
I am a believer that equipment companies and handlers do tons of dirty work behind the scenes with all top recruits and programs. This will not change.
So, we’d likely be in the same position with a new coaching staff, but at least we could try to reclaim our image, which seems tarnished outside our world.
It may be time to remove the rose-colored glasses.
I know, i’m expecting the down votes and wrath of other fans, but think about it…Self can’t be ignorant of all these things.
Lemme have it…sorry.
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@jayhawkcsg you read up on UNC’s easygate? That was 10 times worse than anything Kansas has done
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@jayhawkcsg This is red pill stuff. So ditching the crimson and blue colored glasses is a requirement on this topic. I think everyone is there now.
Self boxed himself in with his statement in the fall. I think he could have made a big leap forward with a bit more of hedge – acknowledging the greasy underbelly of CBB, our role in competing for players, the role of guardians, shoe companies, and leaches, that such relationships were “the game”, and pledging that his program would be the vigilant beacon of a new page in CBB. Hell, I was the naive one that truly believed we were above all of that in the first place, because I believed 100% in Bill Self’s character.
I sure hope he comes out of this, because I don’t think we will ever see a greater coach here at Kansas.
My irritation with his statement has waned a bit. Now it’s one of those “close the ranks” deal. Every Jayhawk is a brother.
And I hope he comes out of this so we can jam in the faces of other programs that the NCAA has apparently turned blind eye to, for whatever reason.
Sticking it to the NCAA with a national title would be pretty sweet too.
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approxinfinity said:
@jayhawkcsg you read up on UNC’s easygate? That was 10 times worse than anything Kansas has done
@approxinfinity yea, ya got me there. But, that seems to be an institutional thing rather than each individual recruiting effort. Maybe i chose the wrong school as an example, but you get the picture.
Are there other schools out there that deal with this crap every year like we seem to do?
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@HighEliteMajor Good points.
I’m assuming all the college coaches are a tight-knit group. Nobody wants to toss another under the bus, in public anyway. So, would have been tough for Self to come out and really go after the “underbelly” with vigilance and hold his own program in good light.
Hey, do i want to see our program raked through the coals? hell no. Do i want Self to succeed? Hell yes.
He’s a great guy. i remember the time i got to meet him in Reno way back in his earlier days, when KU headed out there for a few games. Chatted me up in the buffet line! Very personable, caring. I’ll always remember that. (insert dramatic music here)
I’d love for him and KU to come out of this as if we really are/were the victims. But, it’s just happened too many times for me to be a believer anymore.
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@jayhawkcsg I have read other schools fan boards and there are glitches for many recruits for lots of schools. Kentucky fans are sure the NCAA has it in for them and that Calipari is always in their crosshairs. I have seen more than a few comments wishing Cal was handled with kid gloves like Self.
This was before the Adidas stuff came out. I am sure they are gleeful now, but I haven’t checked.
All fans bitch about how easy it is for the other schools. “Envy” may be one of the 7 deadly sins not highlighted much outside Othello, but it is rampant on the internet.
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I don’t believe there are other schools that have had as much misfortune as we have lately. Selby, Alexander, Diallo, Preston, De Sousa. Further back we had the CJ Giles, JR Giddens, Darnell Jackson issues. It’s been a revolving door of issues over the years. Maybe next year we won’t have them. One can only hope this pattern will end
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jayhawkcsg said:
I love Bill Self, but I would not be disappointed if he and his staff got the boot.
I would be extremely disappointed. Regardless of the circumstances.
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@BeddieKU23 I think it has to be a change of approach. We’ve had two number 1 ranked recruits that both started from the git, and neither one led to a national championship.I guess you could say Selby was number 1, but he never looked like it after he served his suspension. Diallo was held out to get approved, and that ended up being a real bust. Cliff … well, that was a disaster. The Preston incident…and now Silvio. I wish we could find the Devontes and Franks, and leave the Prestons and the Mitchell Robinsons alone. Does Tennessee have one and dones? Hasn’t “Man Bun” at Virginia been there for as long as Perry was here? Roy gets a top 10 recruit every few years, but he mostly takes the guys that are 4 year guys. These are successful programs that win every year. Our willingness to take anybody highly rated that has a pulse is going to force us into taking the lower rated guy anyway due to all the smoke created taking jaded recruits. Why not go all in on it? We have a good base, from Dotson, Garrett, Ochai, Q for at least next year, probably KJ, Big Dave, Lightfoot, and our new guys coming in. We can add some size…maybe a pg prospect in case Charlie bolts, and we have a nice core of athletes, with good college game experience. This could really be a power house next year with some experience and leadership.
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kjayhawks said:
The NY Post and NY Times are nothing short of total garbage.
Sorry to go off topic a bit here but while I don’t know basketball that well, being a KU grad in journalism I’m on more familiar ground for a change… well KJ, you’re half right anyways. In contrast to how some would like to portray it, (or even more dangerously try to paint all media as unreliable) the NY Times, while far from perfect, is about as neutral and respected as it gets in news these days.
While there are numerous ways to gauge this, and nearly all point to the same conclusions, the one I like is this…
“If a reporter gets facts in a story wrong, will the news outlet investigate a complaint and publish a correction? Does the publication have its own code of ethics? Or does it subscribe to and endorse the Society of Professional Journalist’s code of ethics? And if a reporter or editor seriously violates ethical codes - such as being a blatant or serial plagiarizer, fabulist or exaggerator - will they be fired at a given news outlet? While some may criticize mainstream media outlets for a variety of sins, top outlets such as the Washington Post, the New York Times, NBC News and the New Republic have fired journalists for such ethics violations. That is remarkable in a world where some celebrities, politicians and other realms of media can spread falsehood with impunity.”
Another way to gauge is to compare stories here with those in the UK where four of the top 10 trusted outlets for US news reside like the BBC and Reuters. Makes sense as they have little or no skin in the game here.
By any measurable standard you can find, the Times comes out at or near the top for print journalism in terms of trying to print verifiable and accurate news.
Oh and go KU tonight, dang we need this one bad.
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I agree there has to be a change in approach. I feel like I say it monthly but I see no other way around it. My hope is that Garrett, Dotson, Grimes, Agbaji, McCormack, McBride, Braun are the future of how this program will recruit going forward. There are elite talent out there that come without baggage.
I understand the pressure Self and the program is under to be at this incredible level every year. Just look at the amount of players that have left this program early. How valuable would Malik Newman have been to this years squad. How valuable would Josh Jackson had been to last years squad? Wayne Selden the year before that. Kelly Oubre the season before that. Joell Embiid the year before that. The list goes on and on. Dedric Lawson seems like he’ll be the next to add to the list of “what could have been had they stayed one more year”.
Tennesse doesn’t have One and Done’s but look how many years it took Rick Barnes to build that program from the ashes. Developed lots of fringe top 100/+100 ranked types to get the season he’s having now. They were good last year but this year they are on another level. 2 years ago they were 16-16 FYI. No KU coach would survive a season like that. They are having their perfect storm run right now.
Virginia, another program that relies on program development. Guy, Jerome, Hunter have multiple years in that system playing together. Most of his players were the 25-100 ranked types. They don’t have the roster turnover KU has.
I agree that we may have to settle for lower ranked kids to get away from the issues we have right now. Braun & McBride are going to be good here but you wonder if KU would have JRE or some other Top 20 type talents without all the headlines. We could still land Hurt which would be an incredible pull but I’m not expecting we do. I hope I’m wrong there by the way.
I think ultimately KU has to land top talent to keep this going though. Agbaji seems poised to be our leading scorer next year but how improbable has his rise been? Dotson should be our PG for the next 1-2 more years. McCormack will be here 4 years, Garrett as well. I expect both signed recruits to be 4 year players. At some point that group of kids will develop the chemistry that will put KU back at the top like the Tennessee’s and Virginia’s.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out after this season and what kind of roster we have in the aftermath of all the issues facing KU currently
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StLJhawk said:
kjayhawks said:
The NY Post and NY Times are nothing short of total garbage.
well KJ, you’re half right anyways. … the NY Times, while far from perfect, is about as neutral and respected as it gets in news these days.
So in other words, your profession opinion is that the NY Post, the source of the story being referenced in this thread, is indeed total garbage?
I will eschew reading the story on advice of our respected colleagues here. I suspect it will just piss me off.
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@tundrahok The New York Post story is actually a column, and we all know that columns are where writers have an opinion. Opinions are often meant to get a rise out of people, but you can’t and shouldn’t judge a media outlet’s trustworthiness on one man’s opinion.
The column above is by no means unreasonable or trash. It simply states that coaches should be held more responsible for their players. I don’t disagree.
And to the posters who think the New York Times is trash, you should read it more often, then judge. I think you’ll find otherwise.
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@BeddieKU23 If we were ever going to do it, now would be the time. For multiple reasons.
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I think when people say the NYTimes is trash they’re referring to their political tilt. Which is one direction, although not as bad as it used to be in my opinion.
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@StLJhawk Maybe you are more qualified to comment on them being trash or not. I’ve pretty much completely tuned out any mainstream media source to date. For me being a person that is an independent and not really giving a hoot about donkeys or elephants it tough to get news thats accurate. It’s just like the kid the MAGA hat that was supposedly doing all sorts of stuff and the videos came out and showed that all these stories and articles were nothing short of left wing imagination, some of which I’m fairly certain were covered by both NY post and NY times. I don’t care which side you are on or not on (me) I just think I’d get some credible sources before I start attacking some random kid, but thats just me. I would recommend folks to watch the ESPN 30 for 30 fantastic lies, virtually every media outlet in the country had little to no sources but ran with the story to sell and only to sell. I really feel like there is no place to get accurate unbiased news, which is sad in this day and age. To quote one of my favorite actors on the media these days- “If you read or watch the news, you’re misinformed. If you don’t then your’re uninformed” - Denzel Washington
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Read the NYPost article and I was expecting a hit piece on Bill Self. It was really about quite a few coaches, including Self.
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@wissox Actually, the NYPost column performs a nice slight of hand, choosing to start with sympathy for SDS being punished despite no evidence he knew anything (student punished for imputed responsibility for guardian’s acts), and then attacking head coaches for not being punished when their assistant coaches have committed recruiting violations (HC not held to imputed responsibility for asst coach’s acts). Includes Self in the discussion of coaches not being punished.
Conveniently skipping that missing nexus in the SDS case between the two things that give rise to his unbrage: no involvement of any KU employee or assistant coach in the payment scheme.
Total crap. If the payer was a booster, that requires a different analysis into how aware the school (and HC) should have been, but this jerk conflates all of it.
Law may involve technicalities but outrage like this is just freaking stupid.
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@jayhawkcsg I’m a fan of the Times. I’ve never read the Post. I was just amused by our journalism grad’s “half right” comment.
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@mayjay It does bring to mind the statement of the NCAA quite a while ago that KU is a victim in all of this. If we’re the victim, I’d like to see how it feels to be the perp.
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While I haven’t actually opened a Post in years, but I do know a bit about why it ranks comparatively so much lower on reliability models than the Times. It is currently owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp, which owns many conservative/sensational media outlets around the world. It tends to publish stories utilizing sensationalized headlines with emotionally loaded wording such as “It’s time for Bill Clinton to take a walk in the Chappaqua woods.”
Also, it is reported to be the preferred newspaper of U.S. President Donald Trump, who maintains frequent contact with its owner, Rupert Murdoch. The Post has been criticized since the beginning of Murdoch’s ownership for “sensationalism, blatant advocacy, and conservative bias.”
KJ, I too consider myself to be independent but we gotta get news from somewhere. I’m sorry to hear you’ve tuned out all mainstream media. While I can sympathize with why one would do that given the current state of things, the alternatives are likely to be much worse:
- No news at all - kinda hard to be a functioning democracy if the citizens have no interest in the state of things.
- Social media - likely just to reflect your own beliefs back to you regardless of veracity because most sites cherry pick stories and facts to fit their narrative and have no oversight which likely leads to a quite distorted world view.
- Friends and relatives - see 2 above
- Local newspapers/tv - this can actually be a good source for news depending on their journalistic integrity. The trouble is that budgets have been slashed dramatically at nearly every local news outlet, thus hampering their ability to spend time on research, sourcing and fact checking. Plus the added monetary pressures likely lead to wanting to pander to the remaining viewers/readers/listeners they have rather than tell it like it is.
Maybe I’m missing an outlet, but IMHO, I think, much as the founding fathers implied, that the first step to undermining a democracy is to undermine the free press. Lumping all media outlets as the same, or as “garbage” or “fake news” scares the crap out of me.
My advice is not less main stream, but more diversity. On a given topic try going far left, then go far right, go center, go big media, go small, go domestic, go foreign for a coupla times and see what sticks for you. Use Snopes.com, Factcheck.org or Politifact.com to fact check on anything that seems too different or too fishy to you and see how your choices end up. I’ve done this before and found myself on the wrong side of the facts. It hurts my pride a bit and can be uncomfortable to have my worldview not measure up, but my scientific side tells me this is much better than just swallowing what people tell me.
And back to basketball, I am reallllyyy hoping the new lineup can perform as a team like they did last time. I admit my faith was shaken and had a bad feeling about the game and was pleasantly surprised by the butt whuppin we gave. Sure would like to see that happen again tonight… couldn’t happen to a better team at a better time!
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@wissox By the NCAA’s standards, I guess KU would have grounds to sue SDS since he was the beneficiary of the financial felonies committed by Grasswhatzizname.
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@StLJhawk Interesting take my friend maybe I will try to read both.
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@StLJhawk More diversity is brilliant advice.
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@kjayhawks In considering new horizons, check out NYT, WPost, and WSJournal online discounts. They almost all have really cheap specials for under $10 month for anywhere from 1 to 6 months. You can cancel their autorenewals and rotate to a different one.
But, for a broad exposure that can be enlightening and entertaining, here is a website that is free that contains dozens of columnists from papers all over, and representing every part of the political spectrum. As well as advice, religion, business, science, medical and general knowledge articles, and (important to those of us without a local paper worth buying) COMICS–which often have more wisdom than the sages themselves. Explore the drop menu in the upper left because it contains many treasures–don’t just look at the links on the home page.
