The Disappointment.
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@Hawk8086 Unfortunately, I guess I believed that it wasn’t happening at Kansas. That we were led by a man of unquestionable integrity and that he wasn’t doing it like some others might have been. I do believe that there are high character folks. And I thought Bill Self was in that category. And for folks to now say that, oh, that’s how CBB operates, is quite hollow.
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But it is how CBB operates, I’ve been saying it well before the trial. @jaybate-1-0 has long been saying it, though I don’t know his thoughts on KU’s involvement of course.
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Let it play out, folks…
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@HighEliteMajor I got to say I’m extremely disappointed too. I thought we lost all those guys because we didn’t play that game. I can’t believe Self is that stupid too. Just thought he held our program to a higher level!
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Having some fun.
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LMAO!!! 1.) take a chill pill we will be fine. the FBI never clearly presented a paper trail of impermissible benefits everything was text messages and circumstantial evidence.
2.) Its 2018 not 1918 college sports is a billion dollar Industry football and basketball respectively every program in America is breaking some kind of rule even as we speak.
3.) Ku will survive this
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@HighEliteMajor Sadly, I agree. I don’t want to agree. But, I must.
If Townsend knew of money being handed under the table and even went so far as to say that they needed to make that happen for Zion to come to KU, then there is zero chance Bill Self didn’t know what was going on. Zero chance.Oh man, this does not look good. Not at all.
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I posed a similar question last spring. “Is Bill Self Dirty?” was my post and it drew some mild wrath. I tend to be a trusting person and still have faith as @ReggieKansas and others have that this will turn out all right. But I too have some doubts. There’s some dirty stuff out there being thrown around out there with our programs good name attached to it.
Now I’d be chagrined if we bear the brunt of this with so much shade being cast on other big name programs. For the life of me I can’t figure out why Arizona was allowed to step foot on the court after their public shaming last season, ironically of course to get a player supposedly coming to KU. Duke and Kentucky’s annual stack of blue chips just magically happens every year. While we haven’t starved for blue chips, we’re definitely a step below those programs. Let’s just hope a lot of teams are brought down with us if indeed we are brought down.
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@HighEliteMajor I’d recommend sitting down and watching 2 of my favorite basketball movies Blue Chips and He Got Game, both movies shed light into what happens during recruiting. Also I’d watch the HBO documentary on the scandal of the 1950 CCNY basketball team (only team to win the NC and NIT in the same year). I disagree with paying players, I wish I had the chance to go to school for free and get thousands of dollars in clothing, meals and housing for free while I was there. But I’ve thought for years that guys were getting paid, heck UK was busted for it back in the 50s. I hate it but everyone’s doing it and if you don’t you’ve not going to win. ever. As I posted on another thread a D1 assistant claimed “No player is free”. As long as the shoe companies, rich boosters are involved and people pay to watch, kids will get paid. It’s the same way in college football, heck I know that played at the junior college level and got a car. The NCAA won’t dig deeper because they won’t take down the ACC and SEC, those conferences line their pockets and they’ve changed rules and not held any school accountable for decades. The NCAA has one sole purpose whether anyone wants to admit it or not, make money.
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@HighEliteMajor I think Bill really tried to play it straight, and what those texts reveal is a man a few meters down the slippery slope but grasping for some lesser standard that still represents a line he won’t cross. “Just need a few real guys”.
Would it sting you worse if he was involved in paying the 2008 team? I’d have a very hard time with that. I can still convince myself that this is a recent development.
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I’m disappointed the most in the fact that the “bag man” and Self didn’t have layers of separation. Gassnola and Self are not even in the same stratosphere of character but somehow, someway they are connected in this and the optics look bad. That’s my two cents here.
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In reading the texts, consider two thoughts: What would they read like if KU was innocent and simply relied on Adidas’ influence to have access?
vs
What would they read like if KU knowingly took advantage of Adidas paying players?
In the second, wouldn’t there be some reference at least to some unspecified “arrangement” or “thing” or “taking care of it” or something?
As to KT, if you read it, it refers to what Zion’s family wanted. I do not see a reference to knowing what other schools have offered or paid players. I suspect players’ families make demands all the time (Preston, Bowen, etc) but I don’t think they get everything they are looking for.
In looking at evidence that raises an “uh oh, this looks bad”, you always have to go through the process of deciding if it is BOTH consistent with guilt AND inconsistent with innocence. Many innocent statements can look suspicious, but that is why you have to look at the context, as several have said. The context about KU’s participation in any scheme does not include, however, statements made by other people in other schools who voice accusations not supported anywhere else.
This isn’t parsing: this is simply looking beyond the disappointment and fear to examine the actual information putting y’all in such a dither. I don’t see anything actionable against the staff from this material. It might be there eventually, and it could warrant investigation, but I don’t see this stuff as sufficient for sanctions except for a possible suspension of SDS.
A related question: Do the rule changes by the NCAA allowing them to use evidence from other proceedings allow them to use excluded evidence (offered, but not admitted)?
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@HighEliteMajor Suck it up, Buttercup. When you run the Missourah ( KU is evil) NPC meme, you’re going to take some hits. Appreciate all of your pre-season analysis concerning the team, btw…Oh wait…you didn’t find anything compelling enough to comment this year until now. It appears you seem more giddy about Self being in trouble than you are with this year’s team. Maybe if you popped in every once in a while, and gave us your take on who you think the team’s cancer will be this year, it wouldn’t appear like you popped in after 6 months to simply bash the coach. Not even one comment about Late Night, and now a novel about your evil nemesis, Coach Self. A new member thought your latest coach bash was a parody, so I simply tried to give him some background, if you will. I’m sorry if my comment has driven you to the brink of insanity, but as you are so fond of saying… " everybody has the right to their own opinion".
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I still cant believe fans of Lance Armstrong were surprised he was using PEDs. People that were that naive must not have been paying attention to the whole sport where EVERYONE either tested positive or admitted doping. College basketball is the same thing and anyone who thinks their team is clean is just as naive. I live in Dayton Ohio and have known several players and others associated with Wright State over the years. Believe me it happens EVERYWHERE.
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@BigBad Exactly. This kind of stuff goes on at Washburn for crying out loud.
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It happens at the High School level as well. It’s happening as we speak. I was told this week of one case involving a shoe company and a 2019 player committed to a school. There was an actual bidding war among schools under the same shoe affiliation for his signature.
Nothing stopped folks, College Ball is still dirty even as a trial goes on about how dirty it is
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I think the people that are disappointed are pretty naive. This has been going on since the 60’s with UCLA. It happened in our backyard with Myron Piggie. This is the game of major college athletics.
So are the people that are just so disappointed going to stop watching and supporting Self and KU?? I mean I would assume you have too right?
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@Woodrow I think you are missing my point, I love KU, that’s why I’m disappointed. I’d never stop watching or going to games, I watch every KU fb game. I don’t care that “everybody” does it.
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The Alexander and Preston crap dented my appreciation for KU Hoops. Then when the DeSousa stuff surfaced I pretty much retired from daily reading and commenting on this site. With another promising season about to get underway my spirits are lifted somewhat. But I will never again buy into any semblance of belief regarding the innocence of Bill Self and the program. KU might not be as crooked as the programs of Good Ol’ Roy Boy, his mentor Dean, and Mr. Slicks at Louisville and Kentucky, but it’s a sad fact that corruption rears its ugly head at our place and evidently so many others. Years ago a relative chid me for my inclinations to believe in the amateur spirit and state of college sport. No longer do I suspend my disbelief.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I am not missing your point. You should be disappointed in the NCAA and college athletics if you do not like what is going on. This is a business and this is how business is conducted due to the current structure of college athletics.
So you can sit here and say you are disappointed all you want, but you are still going to support the team, love Bill, etc… so how disappointed are you really??
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@KUSTEVE Wow, I thought I was up to date, but I had to look up “NPC meme”.
To help others who may be as uninformed as I (surely, there must be one at least), I am providing a definition paraphrased for your usage:
“People who join the anti-KU crowd only because they’re brainwashed sheep who have been conditioned to parrot anti-KU orthodoxy, just as the computerized characters in a video game provide unthinking comments and actions.”
You youngsters in your 50’s!
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What did we actually expect from Self? Put yourself in his shoes. Look at the expectations on the program. He absolutely has to land top prospects or else people will question his recruiting ability. He better be winning the league at least every other year, and getting to a final four every three or four years. You can’t do that without top tier players. Problem is, you can’t get top tier players to come to Lawrence, Kansas for free when they are getting paid to go somewhere else. So, you have to play the game if you want to keep your multi-million dollar job.
Of course I wish Self and Townsend built in a few more layers of separation. Of course I wish it wasn’t us in the investigation. But to expect that we didn’t have players on the take and that our coaches didn’t know we had players on the take is naive. Coaches know everything that goes on in their program.
Honestly, if you have a problem with Self because of this, it’s because you live in a fantasy world where you assumed for some reason that College Basketball players aren’t worth more than their scholarship despite that not being the case for over 50 years. And maybe now you are finally waking up to that reality. Bill Self has plenty of integrity. You just are shocked that the recruiting “game” is played (and has been since Self was a player at Oklahoma State) outside of the rules of NCAA defined amateurism.
I hope that this ends with a “Not Guilty” verdict because that will be the downfall of the NCAA’s stupid amateur rules. The Olympic model will finally have to be implemented, and we can quit pretending that NCAA Men’s Basketball and Football are Amateur sports.
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@Woodrow my love for Self and KT is diminished. Just the way I am, it’s how I brought up my kids and it’s how my parents brought me up. Think of me however you wish, it doesn’t bother me.
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Exactly @Kcmatt7 . You have to be extremely ignorant and naive to believe none of this was going on. It has been going on FOREVER!! You think Julian Wright just goes to KU without ever visiting. You think Darrell Arthur really just had a dream and picked KU. I mean get a clue.
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@Woodrow thx!
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@Woodrow I think you are missing my point, I love KU, that’s why I’m disappointed. I’d never stop watching or going to games, I watch every KU fb game. I don’t care that “everybody” does it.
Serious question, would you rather KU struggle to even be .500?
Woodrow said:
@Crimsonorblue22 I am not missing your point. You should be disappointed in the NCAA and college athletics if you do not like what is going on. This is a business and this is how business is conducted due to the current structure of college athletics.
So you can sit here and say you are disappointed all you want, but you are still going to support the team, love Bill, etc… so how disappointed are you really??
Well said. I covered this earlier but the problem is systemic because players obviously have value and the fake system trotted out there isn’t realistic. The market adjusted.
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Exactly @BShark . The NCAA has setup the system for it to work this way. Players are still getting money and families are being taken care of but a dime does not come out of their pocket. It is just like Wetzel said in the article I posted earlier. Does the NCAA dare look into Zion and Duke? Hell no! Why? Because everyone knows who Zion is and he is going to sell the sport and the tournament this year. He is going to make them millions of more dollars. oh and Coach K is one of the greatest of his time.
Here is the deal. If you are disappointed in Self then you are saying you would rather be irrelevant in the sport, because that is the only other option.
This is a BUSINESS!
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Woodrow said:
Exactly @Kcmatt7 . You have to be extremely ignorant and naive to believe none of this was going on. It has been going on FOREVER!! You think Julian Wright just goes to KU without ever visiting. You think Darrell Arthur really just had a dream and picked KU. I mean get a clue.
Sherron, the Morris twins, Cole…
I would actually struggle to think of a player at KU under Self that wasn’t compensated. Which, again, I am fine with.
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So, if there really were any NCAA violations here, they would be running afoul of the two most basic NCAA rules there are?
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Don’t get caught.
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Don’t embarrass the NCAA.
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@mayjay What exactly did KU get caught doing? That is why I do not understand why people are freaking out. Does it look bad, sure. Does everyone know finally understand what happens in the real world of major college athletics, sure. However, what exactly did KU get “caught” doing?
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To anyone criticizing those of us who would be disappointed if Self or KU participated in illegal recruiting:
Basketball is entertainment. I have spoken before how excited I am to watch KU basketball, but also how I have fun watching players develop both on and off the court. Finding out bad things about KU or the players undermines my enjoyment.
Yes, it involves blinders, and fantasy, but I see no harm in that. Let me analogize: I know the action movies I watch involve CGI and fake blood, and that the good guy characters probably would do some bad things if we saw their lives over 24 hours, and that few movies ever show anyone taking a dump. Fantasy allows ignoring the gritty realities of life.
Basketball is fantasy. My choice, my disappointment when it implodes!
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Well said
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@Woodrow I said “if”. Since everyone is saying all schools do it, this whole topic should be irrelevant except for if KU were to be caught.
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@BeddieKU23 Thank you. There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa.
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@mayjay NO SANTA ???
You’ve gone too far now.
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I wouldn’t say I am gleeful, but it was the worst kept secret.
In one of the threads on the Phog about it so far 65 schools have been remembered as having been caught to some degree or had a player caught over the last 15 years. So when people say everyone does it, that is pretty much the case. I mean, those are just the schools that had something caught.
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Kcmatt7 Sep 28, 2017, 9:01 AM @BShark I did find that Townsend was lead on Selby. And Wiggins. And Jackson. And Ayton. If we have a coach who is a problem, it is him.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/6304/jaybate-this-is-your-day/203?page=11
I don’t want to rub it in anyone’s face. This sucks. Just don’t get mad at those who weren’t wearing ear plugs and crimson and blue glasses when we were talking about this, rationally, over a year ago. And now what we speculated is being confirmed.
If you want to continue living in a fantasy world, nobody is stopping you. Mute the TV and don’t read about the FBI investigation. But being disappointed in anyone on the staff is something you did to yourself.
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I would have to say that @Crimsonorblue22 has expressed my sentiments a bit more succinctly than I was able to do. She said, “@Woodrow my love for Self and KT is diminished. Just the way I am, it’s how I brought up my kids and it’s how my parents brought me up. Think of me however you wish, it doesn’t bother me.” Perfect.
When my faith is broken, it’s greatly disappointing to me.
It’s just how I view things.
@Kcmatt7 To be very clear, I can tell you exactly what I expected of Bill Self – not to engage in a conspiracy to pay players. I have read for years how many, many folks here (and elsewhere) expressed that there was no way Bill Self would be tied up in something like this. This has been the overwhelming – nearly 100% – sentiment. In fact, I can’t think of one time on this site (among the regulars) that anyone has said that Bill Self was engaged in this stuff. He had too much integrity. After all, he wasn’t Calipari. I was one who felt confident he wasn’t involved in anything like this. I am hopeful that you’re not suggesting that Townsend just did whatever he was doing totally without the knowledge of Bill Self – you’re not saying that, are you?
It is obvious that some now want to turn this into a , “So what, everyone else does it” thing. Or a, “That’s how the game is played” thing.
If there’s anything that disgusts me, it’s the looter’s mentality. Everyone else is doing it, so I can be morally bankrupt.
But again, I think my feeling is more of just disappointment. I’m not angry at our staff. I get it. It’s just not the same now.
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@mayjay You made quite a statement, as follows: “There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa.”
Can you please identify anyone happy or gleeful with all of this?
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Kcmatt7 said:
Kcmatt7 Sep 28, 2017, 9:01 AM @BShark I did find that Townsend was lead on Selby. And Wiggins. And Jackson. And Ayton. If we have a coach who is a problem, it is him.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/6304/jaybate-this-is-your-day/203?page=11
I don’t want to rub it in anyone’s face. This sucks. Just don’t get mad at those who weren’t wearing ear plugs and crimson and blue glasses when we were talking about this, rationally, over a year ago. And now what we speculated is being confirmed.
If you want to continue living in a fantasy world, nobody is stopping you. Mute the TV and don’t read about the FBI investigation. But being disappointed in anyone on the staff is something you did to yourself.
This. This. This.
Remember when this first came out and KU wasn’t initially listed or involved in anything? Tons of national writers all said that other coaches were saying “when is Kansas going to be dragged into this”. Clearly it was pretty known of how KU operated. Not that it is any different than anyone else, but this was a Adidas thing and we are the biggest fish in the water.
I remember two summers ago I was playing golf with a big time donor and we were talking about recruiting and MPJ and Trae Young. I asked him if KU really had a legit shot at them and he said no. “There is no way Nike is not going to let them go to a Nike school”. He was told that by someone on the staff.
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@HighEliteMajor Maybe the “I need to cheat to be competitive in recruiting” rationalization feels to those people more like looting bread to survive after a hurricane rather than looting jewelry or TVs to take advantage of chaos or no LE. I don’t agree but I think that is what it is.
I do have a question for you that goes back to our discussion about which school’s record would we want, KU or UConn. Would you be satisfied with a squeaky clean program that never wins a title if it is true that other blueblood programs are not clean? Or is turning a blind eye something us idealists have to be willing to do to compete in recruiting? I am torn here. I cannot say I am happy following KU football, but is that a price that might have to be paid were a coach to guarantee perfect compliance as the highest priority?
On my “gleeful” comment: I think it stands for itself. It wasn’t directed at you. An analogy would be similar reactions from fans who “know” their team is going to blow a lead in the 4th quarter and instead of being disappointed like the rest seem smug when their negative expectations are realized.
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@nuleafjhawk It’s okay, Virginia. Santa, Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny do exist, and their name is Big Shoe.
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mayjay said:
@BeddieKU23 Thank you. There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa.
Knowing how this game works, and not burying my head in the sand makes me gleeful? Sure OK if that makes you feel better.
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@HighEliteMajor Well before this trial, I’ve said that KU has creatively paid players. When it’s a topic of course, and it frequently wasn’t. But I have brought up Sherron, Julian etc… before the trial. I was often met with scorn but the reactions here were mostly pretty tame from what I remember, compared to other KU boards.
@Woodrow Makes sense with MPJ and Trae. Good info, thanks.
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@HighEliteMajor I have absolutely said that I though Bill Self knew he was getting paid players. I expected more degrees of separation, but I absolutely thought he knew about every single player that got paid.
It’s really only “morally bankrupt” if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place.
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I am not gleeful that KU is caught up in this at all.
I sort of am gleeful that this might change amateur basketball to a system that actually works for the players.
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Someone on the Phog actually put it quite well. I know some here don’t check there, so I am going to copypaste it. I would generally agree with all of this.
"Take the Zion conversation. There are three parts to that. The occupation part. Well, that’s on KU’s staff and boosters. We’ve been doing that for years (Angel Morris immediately comes to mind). The same Lawrence townie takes care of the housing too. That’s an open secret and not news—I’m sure there’s a paper trail of an application, interview, etc. If it’s news to you, you just haven’t been paying attention.
It’s the paying them cash thing that’s really the issue here. I would be shocked if there’s a single bit of evidence of KU staff member talking logistics or amounts of cash, from an apparel company or any other source. In fact, I’m confident there’s not because if there was, the FBI would have indicted that coach too. Do they know it happens? Sure, again, in a general sense. Do they have a specific knowledge of how much or when or even who? No. And, if they do come across that knowledge (i.e. Preston), they bite the bullet and sit the player.
Some people may say that’s all dirty and they should be fired. And maybe it is. But I’m totally okay with that level of cleanliness. I haven’t seen anything yet to lead me to believe it’s any different. So, while I would prefer that this stuff had never seen the light of day, it doesn’t really change my opinion about the whole ordeal…yet."
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@Kcmatt7 You said, “It’s really only “morally bankrupt” if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place.”
I cannot imagine a worse response. Perhaps I’ll break into your car, steal your phone, because the laws were made by folks that exploit the common man and are unfair to those that don’t have phones.
And, of course, you ignore the entire concept that all participating in NCAA basketball are doing so by choice, with the current rules. We’ve done this dance before. That irrefutable. What you describe is your feelings or opinion, which is fine – how you feel about rules and laws is nice. But it doesn’t change the fact that they are the rules and law. And you’re advocating ignoring them because of how you feel.
Or worse, justifying the blatant violations by our head coach.
And in particular, we’re talking about the man with more money than anyone else involved, who is the one at the tip of spear of your complaints. He would have to be the lead “exploiter of athletes.” No one profits more personally than Bill Self.
@mayjay My “looting” reference was not of the stealing to survive mentality. But to your point, I can’t buy the logic (and I know you’re just pointing out how some may view it as a discussion item – and I think you may be right on how they view it. But I think it is the wrong view namely because it really isn’t about survival).
Really, and I’d ask everyone to think about this – does anyone think that Bill Self gets the money he gets from Kansas without a big shoe deal? Bill Self is paid by Adidas – not directly like some coaches – but he is paid.
What if Bill Self was a truly moral man that just blew the whistle? Exposed the system. Declared “we’re not paying.” Declared that KU is dead clean, play for the best program in the country.
And this isn’t where Self wouldn’t have a job if he stopped participating in this stuff. He would. And he’d still make millions. Just not as much, and perhaps not as successfully. No FF without DeSousa last season, I think we can agree.
He made the choice not to survive (as @mayjay alluded to as being a possible thought process), but to thrive (and to win it all). That is much different.
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@HighEliteMajor The NCAA doesn’t even actually care when schools break the “rules”, as long as it’s done in the dark. They have shown this repeatedly with their actions. Duke has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar more than once, and approximately nothing happened each time. At the end of the day, they are going to protect their money makers.
The sham of “amateur athletics” and “non-profit” is only there to trick people. I’d say it doesn’t work, but you seem to subscribe to it based on your words here. You are right we have had these conversations before. Would you still try to argue that these players don’t have value beyond a scholarship?
Also nothing to do with paying players is illegal. It has nothing to do with the law. It’s just against NCAA rules, which, again are not really enforced to begin with.
I would agree with you that Self is paid by Adidas. So obviously, Adidas is going to want to get good players sent his way so that he can continue winning, which sells Adidas apparel.
In your theoretical situation, Self doesn’t get enough good players to compete, imo. I think you might be surprised that all KU players are paid. It’s not just players like Wiggins, Josh, Diallo, Selby, Cliff, Silvio etc… It’s Frank, Devonte, Perry, Cole, TRob, Releford, Reed, Taylor etc… Basically any player that has been on scholarship at KU in the last 30+ years. Roy and Larry weren’t clean either. Hell, Wilt didn’t turn down pro money to play in Lawrence for free. It’s been pay for play for a long time. Maybe not as widespread, and the shoecos are relatively new (90s) but the money has always been there for those that want it.
An interesting question would be, what IF the money wasn’t there? I think you would actually see these kids take a year in Europe, Australia etc… but since the money is there they prefer staying in the country.
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@BShark Regarding the comment about paying players not being illegal … I agree with you. In fact, I was very clear on my opinion of that when the entire FBI deal started. I didn’t think it amounted to “fraud.”
However, as we’ve seen, the prosecutor thinks it is illegal because it defrauds the university. Buying that logic, Self, KT, and the players are co-conspirators. With Self and KT, no different than if an office manager stole from her company. And actually, in my mind, that has better logic than a criminal case against an employee of a separate organization (Adidas) competing in the marketplace.
I do like your comment – “the sham of ‘amateur athletics’ and ‘non-profit’ is only there to trick people.”
I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it’s about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn’t, that we didn’t have to, and that it wasn’t widespread. In large part because we never hear of a 30 year old former player saying, “yeah, I got $30k from UK.” The silence indicated something to me.
I just don’t (yet) buy your narrative where you suggest the payments to all these players. But I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m rethinking my thoughts on all of this.
