FBI...here we go
-
I didnt say the guy was a saint. I said he didnt pay players.
-
@BigBad I’m not saying he did. I’m just not saying someone else around the program didn’t.
-
Also recruiting was waaaay different back then. You could still find kids in the 80s. Shoecos in the 90s changed things and with the internet now almost all prospects are known.
-
@BShark kinda adds up. That’s when Knight’s teams really began to fall off badly
-
Knight didnt need to cheat. Most kids in Indiana looked at Basketball as religion and Knight as a deity. He got almost every top Indiana recruit and that was always a stud. When did Knight start losing? When he started missing on all those recruits. Why did he miss? Others paying.
-
I also find it funny that when Prop 48 came out there were plenty of kids who were not eligible to play as freshmen. Studs like Larry Johnson and Glenn Big Dog Robinson. Now NOBODY fails the SAT. Id bet my life its all cheated.
-
cragarhawk said:
@BShark kinda adds up. That’s when Knight’s teams really began to fall off badly
And when Duke took off. Plus the fab five and those Tark UNLV teams.
-
BigBad said:
I also find it funny that when Prop 48 came out there were plenty of kids who were not eligible to play as freshmen. Studs like Larry Johnson and Glenn Big Dog Robinson. Now NOBODY fails the SAT. Id bet my life its all cheated.
Imagine being Derrick Rose, the only kid to get caught.
KU has had some partial qualifiers under Self. I still say what if Ben was eligible in 2012. That UK team was really good but maybe he makes enough of a difference. Ben was so good.
-
That jumper was smooooooooth
-
@BShark hell ya. Why not say it makes a difference. We still had a legitimate shot at beating UK that year as is. Couple balls bounce a different way and we win that game. One of my most favorite teams…
-
Yeah I just can’t help but think he could have made the difference. Conner Teahan played 21 minutes a game for that team after all.
-
Here is a question that has been intriguing me for awhile, but which I have never seen addressed:
Will adidas be sanctioned by the Frankfurt stock market (traded there, acc to Wikipedia) or Euro regulators if its agents are found in these cases to have engaged in widespread criminal activity on behalf of the company? We know the Euros are willing to impose huge fines on American companies (MSoft, Google, Facebook) that have done bad things in Europe. Will they punish one of their own for violations in America? Does the failure of the stock price to be very affected by the indictments play a role?
-
Knight did not need to cheat, he had plenty of boosters working on the background doing the dirty work to steer kids to Indiana. I would say most coaches maintain a healthy distance to have plausible deniability but they generally know what’s happening even when they are not doing it hands on.
-
@JayHawkFanToo If true, I am guessing the major NCAA violation called “failure to exercise institutional control” is essentially the failure to have enough obscuring layers in place to support schools’ Sgt Schultz act?
So, most schools have probably had boosters or friends of the program help recruits get laid. But Louisville had a BB staffer do it with hookers brought to their residence some 20 times. No layer at all, or the thinnest possible one, shielding Pitino. Should have used Uber or a cab, given the driver a grand or two, and had them taken to a local ‘restaurant’ for the innocent dinner planned for them to interact with the local Pole community–er, pole community.
-
Incidentally, I had a close friend awhile back who worked in the 70s and 80s for a company that did lots of lighting and audio installations in the famous NYC clubs. He said they had a local brothel and high-end call girls pretty much on retainer and they would help convince financiers and club operators to choose his company.
It ain’t just basketball.
-
@mayjay It’s in everything unfortunately especially the government.
-
@kjayhawks Once, when we were discussing some scandal, a commodity lawyer once told me he had great faith in my integrity and fairness. Then he said that he was sure of it because I wasn’t important enough to bribe!
-
@mayjay haha not sure if that’s an insult or compliment.
-
Politicians are worse. A friend of mine had a flooring company and one time she was called to the home of a very well connected and wealthy businessman/politician in KCMO and asked to redo the carpeting for a house off Paseo Blvd. in KC where a lot of parties took place, basically around the clock. It was a big house with lots of private rooms and all the floors and most of the walls had shag carpeting and the bar was open 24/7. Heard a lot of stories about the parties and the people and “guests” that attended them.
-
@BShark Why the assumption that what a defense lawyer says are facts?? His only job is to create doubt.
-
Barney said:
@BShark Why the assumption that what a defense lawyer says are facts?? His only job is to create doubt.
Did I insinuate this somewhere? I’ve actually been having to clarify for people on twitter that closing arguments are not testimony and that he was asking the jury to make inferences.
-
@BShark Sorry, the statement was not aimed at you at all, just the assumption that a defense lawyer doesn’t exaggerate and spin. The way it is being reported as fact is mind numbing to me.
-
@Barney Completely agree.
-
The reports do actually make it sound factual and it could very easily not be. That is a very true statement.
However, I think we can all agree, that everything that has come out at least points to a better chance that there is some validity there. It looks bad and smells bad.
And even with that it could all be bunch of crap. But I believe at least half the ppl on this site would say it’s naive to think so… I don’t personally remember seeing alot of that view before this all came out. But perhaps it didn’t need to be said prior. I could be wrong.
-
@cragarhawk I was hoping Self wasn’t directly involved but the current stuff doesn’t look good obviously.
They don’t have enough to factually link Self to payments though, or they absolutely would have put that out there at trial.
-
@BShark certainly, I mean that would be the biggest fish yet I’d think. If they had an actual smoking gun.
I.E. Self on tap asking Adidas rep to pay recruit this much $$$$.
I mean unless I’m mistaken it was said they had Pitino on a tap like that, and where has that gone? I’ve yet to hear about that tape being outted to the public. Does such a tape exist. Same thing for Sean Miller.
I think if they existed we would of heard them by now. Or… They’ve been buried by those whose best interest is to keep them buried.
I think we have to assume the same thing for Self. There either is no such recorded convo. Or… there is, and somebody doesn’t want anyone to know it.
-
@cragarhawk I thought I remembered the Pitino and Laranaga (sp?) conversations but I could be mistaken. Either way if something was out there on Self it would have been leaked early like those or at the trial I would think.
If it got buried, well damn that means those guys really fell on the sword but given all the comments and testimony I don’t think that’s the case.
-
@BShark it’s very possible I missed those if they actually came out. I bury my head in the sand news wise for the largest part of the year. I pay attention to a few things from about Late night thru late March/early April… And then I’m out. Lol
I was actually wondering to myself today…
Is that part of why the new contract with Adidas hasn’t been signed yet? It seems unlikely that we could be holding that as leverage for ppl to say the right things at trial… when unless I’m mistaken, those ppl are no longer employed by Adidas… lol
But it does seem somewhat strange and it’s reasonable I think to wonder exactly what the deal is with that. We may never really know how big this thing really is.
-
cragarhawk said:
@BShark certainly, I mean that would be the biggest fish yet I’d think. If they had an actual smoking gun.
I.E. Self on tap asking Adidas rep to pay recruit this much $$$$.
I mean unless I’m mistaken it was said they had Pitino on a tap like that, and where has that gone? I’ve yet to hear about that tape being outted to the public. Does such a tape exist. Same thing for Sean Miller.
I think if they existed we would of heard them by now. Or… They’ve been buried by those whose best interest is to keep them buried.
I think we have to assume the same thing for Self. There either is no such recorded convo. Or… there is, and somebody doesn’t want anyone to know it.
Fabulous points you guys. This is not a good look for KU at all.
Im in North Carolina until next week and I keep walking past Duke tshirts and I always think G.D. Duke, cheating Mofo’s. Then Im like, Oh yah, the KU stuff.But really what we should all do is reserve judgement of any kind about Bill Self and the staff until such a time as we have enough info to make an informed decision. Which we may never get. This stuff kills me. To think that our program could be participating in things that are against the rules. I always thought that KU and Coach Self were above reproach to take a bit from @HighEliteMajor I think we all have to be disappointed by hearing these things. But, I also think we need to continue to be life long KU fans.
That will never change for me. Not until I hear about KU bringing in prostitutes for athletes or allegedly trying to cover up a murder or something. Has that ever happened?
-
A wait and see approach really is best.
-
-
Crimsonorblue22 said:
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article220324810.html
Thanks. Lots of stuff here that wasn’t brought up much in other articles.
The full timeline article is also good.
-
-
Here is a summary of the prosecutor’s closing argument at the FBI trial; looks like the Government just cleared KU. If there was a future trial, the opening argument by KU’s lawyers would be to quote the closing argument bu the government prosecutors.
The government contends the three men victimized the universities by causing prospects whose families had received improper benefits to provide inaccurate information on NCAA certification forms.
"If the universities had known about the defendants’ secret payments, they never would have issued those scholarships, they never would have put themselves in harm’s way and risked NCAA penalties, fines and forfeiture of contests," Solowiejczyk said.
-
@JayHawkFanToo You can see how dishonest the prosecution was here. They were just successful in keeping certain information out of evidence, thus they could craft their closing around the “evidence” at the trial (which, of course, they have to do).
-
There was no verdict after day 1. Continues today…
-
Ryan over on the Phog droppin dimes.
Preston was cleared academically, but never for his amateur status. Hence why the entire process was always an “appeal”, despite what PR the KU staff spun early on. There was a lot of confusion because the whole car wreck thing muddied the info, but Preston was ruled ineligible and KU was appealing the whole time in hopes of getting him cleared before the first game. It never happened, he moved on.
-
The #HoopsTrial jury has begun day 2 of deliberations. Jurors have agreed to deliberate until 8:30p EDT tonight
https://twitter.com/PeteBrush/status/1054757517333532672
Sounds like the jurors are pretty set on getting this finalized before tomorrow…
-
@Kcmatt7 Deliberating until 8:30 pm gets them a nice dinner.
I like a smart jury!
-
mayjay said:
@Kcmatt7 Deliberating until 8:30 pm gets them a nice dinner.
I like a smart jury!
What’s a good dinner at these things? Filon Mignon or Burger King?
-
@BeddieKU23 I don’t actually know. A lot of judges chew lawyers up, but they just spit 'em out.
-
No verdict again today / tonight. The jury deliberated until 830 ( Eastern) then called it a night. They will meet back tomorrow and continue at 930 .
Most seem to think the longer this drags out the better it is for the defendants.
-
So what do people think the effect if any on KU is if the verdict is guilty or not guilty… Is guilty better for KU does it matter?
-
If not guilty, I’d think it would mean the NCAA lost almost all of its authority in a court of law. And KU will be the least of their problems. If guilty, KU and the NCAA keep up the farce that is college athletics.
-
So sitting here thinking - - I know that’s scary lol anyways in this FBI trial I’m thinking we would want a Guilty verdict brought back on this right? - - -This would be the better scenario for us then not guilty right? - -Cause guilty would indicate that the Universities would be the victim - - -that’s what we need correct?
-
@jayballer73 A not guilty verdict means that Adidas and Nike can basically just keep paying players and there is not a damn thing the NCAA can do about it.
-
@jayballer73 So I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think we will get anything but a slap on the wrist.
-
@Woodrow @jayballer73 A guilty verdict might insulate our people from criminal prosecution by the feds. But the government theory of the case, regardless of whether the jury buys it, has no effect whatsoever on the NCAA bringing any case it wants to.
-
I would guess there are two ways to look at it. While a guilty verdict might insulate somewhat the alleged aggrieved parties, it would also give the FBI impetus to follow up with other cases it has waiting and we would have a never ending process.
I would think the first case the FBI brought up was the one with the bests chance of success and a not guilty verdict would for all practical purpose send a message to the FBI…
…you overreached in this case, let the IRS handle the money changing angle and you cannot be the enforcer of NCAA rules; let it enforce it own rules and if financial redress is needed it can go to civil not criminal court for reparations.
I am not sure which one is the better outcome. I would lean towards the second insofar as it would likely end the investigation, the NCAA can generate a general, one time amnesty and things can go back to “normal.”
-
@JayHawkFanToo Oh, I think the potential for a several-years-long pain in the tookus from this whole thing is a real possibility. I was just addressing collateral legal liability–the feds won’t want to undermine a conviction, but the NCAA is not bound by anything.
