Vick Coming Back
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jayballer73 said:
BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
I don’t think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.
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Hail Mary
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I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.
Never happen.
Then he went with him.
Never work. Bad handles.
Then he handled.
Never work. Too soft and sensy.
Then he grew up.
Not a good enough shooter.
Then he shot 40% most of the season.
Won’t last.
Then he lead the team to the Finals.
Won’t make it in the pros.
Lasted a few years and done.
See, I told you so.
There are great players.
Some pass the eye test and create comfort.
Some are “different” and trigger discomfort.
Tyshawn Taylor wasn’t a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.
Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didn’t have one.
Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by season’s end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.
Self doesn’t take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.
Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.
Self has a tough call.
Everyone wants Vick “on a short leash” taking the treys and being what they already know—the domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.
Fans always want more of what they know.
They didn’t want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.
They didn’t the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.
And so on
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.
See at @HighEliteMajor’s reference to Self’s comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?
Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.
Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?
Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass “over the top” and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.
You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.
Come in. The water is fine.
Self said he isn’t a PG.
Proof re Larry Brown or are you just making that up?
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank all had bad handles.
WRONG. Next.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.
Never happen.
Then he went with him.
Never work. Bad handles.
Then he handled.
Never work. Too soft and sensy.
Then he grew up.
Not a good enough shooter.
Then he shot 40% most of the season.
Won’t last.
Then he lead the team to the Finals.
Won’t make it in the pros.
Lasted a few years and done.
See, I told you so.
There are great players.
Some pass the eye test and create comfort.
Some are “different” and trigger discomfort.
Tyshawn Taylor wasn’t a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.
Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didn’t have one.
Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by season’s end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.
Self doesn’t take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.
Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.
Self has a tough call.
Everyone wants Vick “on a short leash” taking the treys and being what they already know—the domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.
Fans always want more of what they know.
They didn’t want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.
They didn’t the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.
And so on
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
Tyshawn was always a PG. Next.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank and Tyshawn were listed as PGs by services and KU/Self constantly. Try again.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
Self gets things wrong all the time. He bungled the Diallo situation for one.
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@jaybate-1.0 Frank had bad handles? Pleeaaaaase
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Yes, when he arrived, everyone talked about how limited his skills as a PG were.
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
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jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I’ve simply missed it.
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What if jaybate is Larry Brown?
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Diallo is still trying to figure it out!
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You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I’ve simply missed it.
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But of course I dont.
U always leave the best part out.
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@jaybate-1.0 NO - -jaybate – -NOT hell Mary - -it’s OH jerry lmao. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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mercy me - – mercy me - -mercy me - - - people rippling waters - -seems to be some slight difference of opinions within the trible- -has to be the heat - -or the water lol - -let’s remember as I was told sometime back - -let’s play nice and enjoy - -yes - - yes - - yes that’s it – looking forward to Vick playing PG lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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California water rations maybe.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
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BShark said:
California water rations maybe.
Yes that’s what it has to be - - some rations. - -And by the way mister - -no firecrackers for you - -you been to agrumentive ( is that even a word lmao ) - -no missle’s - -no Roman Candles no nothing lol
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The next thread in which I am hoping to follow back and forth disputationness is the one about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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@jaybate-1.0 I do seem to remember people suggesting that Frank couldn’t play point. I wasn’t one of them. His dribbling always looked very tight to me.
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NBA no has love for Vick. Vick needs home. Bill says drop crap and learn PG. Vick proves in NC season he can team it up and play PG. NBA loves Vick and he is 2nd round pick. Next.
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@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that’s been his only role here. The “Hurd” being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick’s AAU coach. While I don’t think he’ll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/
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Thx again for further clarification.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that’s been his only role here. The “Hurd” being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick’s AAU coach. While I don’t think he’ll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/
Sounds like it was recruit speak at this point. We all can take an educated guess that many coaches will lie to get commits. Calipari and Drew are prime offenders but I wouldn’t be surprised if Self made some suspect comments while trying to land a kid.
Like you said, he has only ever been a 2G here and now Self has a natural PG in Dotson and a small guard in Moore that you really don’t want playing outside of the 1/2.
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I agree, recruiting coach speak paraphrased by his HS coach and as far as I can tell not directly by Self. Technically, any player can play any position and in HS is not rare to see a 6’4" player playing Center and a 6’9" player bringing the ball up the court; the better players are also great athletes and so much better than the often weak HS competition that literally can play any position they want somewhat competently.
College is quite different, the competition level is considerably higher and players quickly learn they have a natural position which they will likely play and sometimes, they will play a position different than their natural one if lack of personnel dictates they do and when they do they are often at a disadvantage with opponents playing their natural positions.
If Vick was ever going to play PG, last season would have been his best chance since KU was sorely short at that position, instead, Coach Self decide to ride Graham like a rented mule and played him close to 40 minutes a game with Svi and Newman and occasionally Garret spelling him but I did not see Vick play PG at all.
KU has Moore and Dotson firmly entrenched as PGs and Grimes being next after showing in the FIBA under 18 tournament he could run a team, next candidate would be Garret who actually played PG in HS and after that KJ who has indicated that he is not a big but a big guard that can play and defend positions 1-4. I just don’t see a scenario where Vick would play PG at KU, none whatsoever…wishful thinking notwithstanding. If he did not play PG last season there is no way he plays PG this season.
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I agree with your basic point that the best HS players (the ones that go on to college) can shift around more than they can as they move up the ladder.
That said, Vick played a ton of minutes last year, and as one of KU’s best athletes, he was often asked to play PF because of KU’s lack of depth up front. Last year was probably the worst year for him to get minutes because he was being asked to play up front quite a bit. KU had no lineup where they were better served moving Vick to PG.
These last several KU teams have been guard heavy, but very light up front. If Sam Cunliffe was 6-8 or 6-9, he would have played 18 mpg last season.
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You can call him a point guard, a shooting guard, a wing, a stretch 4, …just as long as he hits the 3…who cares? It’s no skin off my nose if Jaybate wants to call him a point guard.
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Vick will wear #24 this year.
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Woodrow said:
Vick will wear #24 this year.
Thanks.
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@Woodrow More info out now
Gary Bedore Verified account @GaryBedore
KU senior Lagerald Vick will wear No. 24 his senior season. His No. 2 had been given to Charlie Moore when Vick declared for the draft. Why No. 24? Taken from Bible’s Book of Ephesians 4:22-24. Verse 24 is favorite part of passage of Vick and mom, his mom explained.
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Ephesians 4:22-24 New International Version (NIV) 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
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I see “Self” is mentioned twice…oh wait…never mind…
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@mayjay sounds good!
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Vick was the ultimate team player in the Duke game to take us to the Final Four. I’m sure that Self recalled how fantastic Vick has become in the middle of the zone. His pass to Newman in the Overtime was a thing of unselfish beauty. Watch the guys that are coming back this year. De Sousa played the entire overtime and though he threw the ball into the stands, He was a monster on the boards when KU needed him the most. The new guards need to quickly get up to speed on the lob. I hear that Garret is shining in practice.
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@wrwlumpy Garrett is great. Some people write him off because of his jump shot but in every other way he is at worst above average at basketball.
Also I can rewatch that game rewind any day!
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I’m already looking forward to the Grimes to Vick backdoor dunk. It’s going to be a great season. I can’t wait.
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@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he’s changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he’s changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form
If he gets his shooting numbers up there could be a very real chance he is one of the best couple players on the team.
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@wrwlumpy after that game I saw on tv, a huge hug from Vick to coach, it was very genuine too.
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Remember I said the same thing and you though i was…well… …starting the weekend early…
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@JayHawkFanToo haha gotem!
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@JayHawkFanToo I hope you are right. If I were having to bet on a specific percentage, I’d go 31%. Your “mid to upper 30s” is a bold one.
It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.
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Haven’t really chimed in on this. Looks like it was a good thing.
I’m still shocked Vick is coming back. That seemed like a closed door to me. I’ve been fooled twice this off-season. First Doke returned and now Vick. Glad I was wrong.
The biggest question for me regarding this whole thing is what happens if he doesn’t ride the straight and narrow at every turn? Is this the final straw he’s been given? Will Self let him be a continued distraction if he reverts back to old habits? Distractions always end up hurting this team in the end.
What happens when the initial “I’m going to be different” wears off.
I know many of these questions we don’t have the answer too. We’ll have to see how it plays out
I hope he truly takes this chance to heart and becomes the player many of us thought he could be.
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Vick will be on a short leash and if he stray too much he will be gone. I would think one of the reason Coach Self let him come back is because after the Summer he will need just 12 credits to graduate which he can easily do it and graduate in December and, even if he is let go and does not make it to the NBA, at least he will have a college degree to get him started in the real world.
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HighEliteMajor said:
It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.
Probably healing and getting physically into playing shape which he still is not quite there yet although he has made great progress. He averaged 23.6 mpg and was the only starter not to be in the 30s. Carrying 280 pounds, even on 7’ body has to be pretty taxing.
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@JayHawkFanToo Unfortunately there is no excuse. It was a miss by the coaching staff.
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I’ll wonder how short the leash is. We’ll find out. It would suck if he’s a starter and something happens. We have depth but this team likely is better with his skills on the floor.
Vick is in a great position to capitalize on his seniority given he’s the only senior. We know he doesn’t have the character of a leader but this is a great opportunity. Would love to see him step up the way Devonte and Frank did in prior seasons.
