Bill Self - cost us the game?
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Who would agree that Doke should have been called for a foul when he plowed into Young right before TY hit that 25 footer? They seemed to be calling every other touch foul.
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Sad part about it is the rest of the team could shoot from half court blindfolded at a higher percentage than Dokes ft shots tonight.
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@Blown even the announcer said so. The fans boooo’ed the refs until the 3 pointer.
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Young’s really good at making everything looking like he’s fouled
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@Crimsonorblue22 He got nailed on the push off tonight though, which was satisfying considering how often he does it.
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@HighEliteMajor This is what I have been spewing on twitter! What kind of coach(s) allows a kid to ever shoot a free throw like that? Thats the question I want Self to answer. They have had two years almost and this is the form they came up with? If aint broke dont fix it, well it is broke so fix it!
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All right. I’m done for the night. Hyperbole aside, I want Doke to be a guy that can be in the game at crunch time down the road.
Pretty sure Bill Self knows he could have won this one. Hopefully the team is better in the long run. Maybe there was some rope-a-doke going on for future games (what a set up that would be!), or he just gave the kid a chance.
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And even after they showed it on the scoreboard screen the fans kept booing; pretty ignorant fans.
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@chriz I wondered this too, this is how the NBA handles it most times, they get more TO’s but if I remember correctly Self didnt use a lot of TO’s
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Interesting. Channel 5 in KC referred to the poke-a-Doke. Remember, you heard it here first.
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Hows that for confidence?
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I wish Doke had fouled out with 3 minutes left.
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This years “how to beat KU” play book. Put your walk on’s in and foul Doke every time KU takes a lead. Rinse and repeat. Out of all of KU’s possessions if you took 10-15 away by fouling Doke away from the ball then you could shave 20-30 pts off of their production. Seems legit.
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@truehawk93 not a bad game. Threw it with a failure to adapt. I don’t see any way that Doke will grow from this. It’s possible but probably not this year.
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@kjayhawks in last 2 min we weren’t even throwing it in to him. They were fouling him when he wasn’t really even in the play.
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Blown said:
Who would agree that Doke should have been called for a foul when he plowed into Young right before TY hit that 25 footer? They seemed to be calling every other touch foul.
Are you thinking conspiracy?
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@DanR Doke gained no confidence from this. At best, his confidence is not 100% destroyed.
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@CRH107 that take does not take into account the pressure that was built by a failure to adjust.
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@Crimsonorblue22 now that’s a mystery. Not adapting to end game strategy is stupidity.
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@Big-Clyde52 hopefully our coaching staff would adjust in the future. If not, an Asst Coach needs to put his job on the line slapping sense into Self on the sideline.
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@Bwag a strategy the refs were keen on too. I mean how much more clear was it that the refs threw the game?
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@hawkmoon2020 I had this in the loss column like the WV game. But who’d figure we’d give it due to coaching when victory was achievable at 2 min mark with an adaption to other teams coaching strategy?
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@chriz no. just thinking how the smallest things in games (and life) can prove to be more meaningful down the road than they appeared at the present time. Might have prevented that big 3 and had another foul on Doke and he could have fouled out of the game before being poked 5 times.
The Hawks lose championship this year by one game, this game will be very bitter to look back upon giving the circumstances and coaches decision.
I am still amazed about the foul discrepancies. Maybe I should “go ask Fran about it.”
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This was adapting to the refs and how they were calling it. Which is called having the refs in your pocket. Which is cheating.
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@chriz I don’t see that master plan materializing.
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A lot of great coaches on this site!
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nuleafjhawk said:
@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.
We could afford to lose this one. And I think this was engineered. But who cares. Vick, Doke, everyone. We need to get better when we’re tired in the second half.
We had pretty good defense. I wonder if Garrett is more important in the lineup than Vick at this point. Better defense and better handle.
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Partially. He was a contributing factor but I don’t put it all on Bill Self. Self should have switched Doke and Lightfoot after the first time Kruger decidedt o intentionally foul. But, Azubuike is the one who missed the free throws, he also bears some of the blame.
Additionally DG shot 4/19 from the field and missed a lot of shots that he is capable of making. If he makes 2 or 3 more of his FGA and shoots like 6/19 or 7/19 (still bad), then it puts KU in a much better position to close out the game.
Overall just a disappointing loss and a game that KU should have had.
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Trae Young was great, though.
Lon Kruger is a good coach.
Water is wet, etc.
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Never in a million years did I think I’d be yelling “Put in Mitch!”
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Who would have thought Self would blow a conference game. The Big-12 is his sacred ground.
I’ve never seen a coaching mistake that blatant from him in all the years. If there are others that top this I’m drawing a blank at the moment.
Its put up or shut up time for both the staff and Doke. Both are forced to deal with the issue now. Both have to game-plan a way to improve. They helped Josh Jackson last season with his preparation and mentality. They must do the same with Doke now. It’s hard to believe we all witnessed this last night
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Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
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wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
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@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, that’s really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed “reporters” don’t ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious “form” issues – the “why” is this happening inquiry.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
And even after they showed it on the scoreboard screen the fans kept booing; pretty ignorant fans.
Haha, I was hoping Dok would flatten Young. It would’ve been doubly good for KU. No Young or Dok down the stretch.
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@HighEliteMajor And this will continue to be a real problem going forward. In close games, other coaches will surely use this tactic. Which, if Doke does not get better (as you say, how can he with that form?) will cause Self to have to take him out at the 5 min. mark or so depending on where we are on team fouls. Then, of course, teams will attack Mitch inside.
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Self should have gone back to Mitch. When we talk about confidence, we have to look at two things.
First, does this help or hurt Doke’s confidence when he’s struggling? I say no, but that’s debatable because Doke at least knows that Self will stick with him.
Second, does this help or hurt Mitch’s confidence? Mitch is sitting there seeing what OU’s strategy is. He sees Doke missing FTs and the lead dwindling. And yet Self doesn’t look his way to stem the tide. Does Self have that little confidence in Lightfoot to at least make OU play ball instead of a foul-a-thon? And Mitch was playing some solid ball, too. Yet Self still wouldn’t go to him down the stretch in a critical game.
There’s two elements of confidence here. Even if Doke’s confidence wasn’t shaken, do we know what kind of message that sent to Lightfoot?
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Fortunately for us, no other teams will scout this game to realize we are handing over a great tool for them to win. ha
What we can’t do is go negative on Doke. Hey… as I’ve been saying… he has improved more than any other big man we have ever had in such a short time. IMHO, more so than JoJo because JoJo brought more tools with him to Lawrence.
Believe me… one or two more losses from “poke a Doke” and we’ll see changes… if not immediately after this loss.
I’m thinking Doke is already asking Self to find a way to help him with his FTs. Our staff can’t just let him go off on himself and do this. He needs help from others.
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BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
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HighEliteMajor said:
@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, that’s really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed “reporters” don’t ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious “form” issues – the “why” is this happening inquiry.
I wonder if any of Self’s assistants wondered “what the blank is Self thinking?” I rarely question the quality of Roberts and Townsend and they seem like quality coaches who genuinely care, but sometimes I wonder if Self needs a coach who is not afraid to be fully honest with him in these situations. Sure, it’d be risky at times, but that move was not about confidence and, frankly, was wrong and unfair of Self to do to his own player. I imagine Dok feels he lost the game for them which is not true. The coach is supposed to know limitations and maneuver around them when its crunch time - maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Unless there is info we don’t know and arent privy to, last nights late game maneuver is possibly the worst D1 coaching decision I’ve ever seen.
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Folks, please tell me why this would not have worked:
- Walkon fouls Doke
- Self puts Mitch in against the walkon : MUA
- Every time Kruger sends the real player to the scorer’s table, Self sends Doke.
- Every time Kruger sends the walkon to the scorer’s table, Self sends Mitch.
Kruger then has to decide: do I poke Doke with a real player or do I stop fouling?
This seems so simple. Instead of playing “your best player” you play the biggest MUA. (By the way @jaybate-1-0 , is MUA the right term? and what does it mean already?)
Comments please…
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@ParisHawk that would have been the logical decision yes.
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HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of “me, me, me” shots, the FT’s and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
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@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??
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Before the game yesterday, I posted the concern below related to games even when the other team has the lead. I bet Scott Drew is kicking himself -
@drgnslayr If I’m an opposing coach, and I see how well Kansas finishes games – even if I’m up 4 with say three minutes to play – perhaps I just foul Udoka on every KU possession. That is better odds than seeing if DG, Svi and company are going to beat me. Because they most likely will. Foul the opposition on purpose with the lead. Is that a crazy strategy? If Baylor had done that starting at the 2:30 mark, you think they win?
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Barney said:
@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??
Good question. - - -you tell me. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@CRH107 GREAT POINTS. Doke / Self lost us the game.
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@betterfireE If this was truly engineered, and i were the AD, the Chief Engineer would be looking for a new job today - don’t give a F if he’s in the Hall of Fame or if he had won 10 NC’s (which he won’t).
His only job is to win basketball games. He gets paid more money in one year that most of us will make (combined) in our lifetimes. If he is engineering losses to supposedly make things better in the long run ( which he never does - one NC, thanks to a hail mary prayer by Chalmers to get us to OT - not good coaching ) then we need somebody else on the bench that wants to win every game.
I’m not calling for his head, but I’m tired of stupid ass coaching like this and like i see in late March that cost us wins.
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http://discovermagazine.com/2008/the-body/07-physics-proves-it-everyone-should-shoot-granny-style
Maybe if the name were changed to “Studly Style” shooting this way wouldn’t be so taboo.
New challenge to the board rats: New name for the Studly Style Free throw…Most creative wins membership to the Jelly of the Month Club.
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BeddieKU23 said:
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of “me, me, me” shots, the FT’s and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. He’s paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.
