Are we done recruiting?
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Then there are three top 40 players committing already this year. Nice!
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dylans said:
It has been slim pickings early lately: Ellis? Selden? Peters, Frankamp, Lightfoot, Jacobs, Garrett, Oubre, Alexander.
The hyperbole about KU’s best class ever (not @buckets but elsewhere) is a bit pre-mature. The Chalmers, Rush, Arthur, Downs class was pretty nice. Esp. Following another top 5 class with all the players returning.
13 on paper was the best single class under Self. With my post I meant since 13 which is why I stopped at 14. Self cleaned up in 13 when he needed a big class and had many clear spots available, just like he has started to do again.
Arthur was not in the same class as Chalmers and Rush. He was one year later. Juju was in the Rush/Chalmers class.
Also I don’t think listing RTs/donks like Peters and Frankamp is in your favour.
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@BShark That’s right it was Wright not Arthur thus he was a year younger when he jumped.
Not a competition as far as I’m concerned just trying to recall.
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@BShark I know which class I’d take ‘05 vs ‘13 given the results. The ‘13 class is making more money, but they weren’t nearly as successful in college.
3 top 10 guys in ‘13 = 10 losses and an early exit. It was just too young of a team. I hope we don’t run into that problem again after next year.
And yes the ‘13 class on paper is def. the best class after Embiid jumped up so high late in the recruiting cycle. Selden was a bit high at #6 imho.
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dylans said:
@BShark I know which class I’d take ‘05 vs ‘13 given the results. The ‘13 class is making more money, but they weren’t nearly as successful in college.
3 top 10 guys in ‘13 = 10 losses and an early exit. It was just too young of a team. I hope we don’t run into that problem again after next year.
And yes the ‘13 class on paper is def. the best class after Embiid jumped up so high late in the recruiting cycle. Selden was a bit high at #6 imho.
The big thing is how the landscape changed. If Wiggins and Embiid were 2-3 year guys the class would look a lot different. Same for if you look at just the first year for the 05 class. For this reason I really like this class so far. Dotson is a multiyear player, McCormack is likely to graduate and we should see at least two years of De Sousa.
Agree about Selden. Some people probably look at Selden as a failure due to his ranking but I think the staff did a good job with him and so far he has been hanging around the league. Dude really could not shoot when he got to KU.
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Wiggins and Embiid? Went 1 and 3 in the draft…
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@JayHawkFanToo It was still KU’s least successful team under Self by losing 10 games that season.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Wiggins and Embiid? Went 1 and 3 in the draft…
My point is just that OAD was much less of a thing back then. Though back then I think Wiggins is a guy that would have been straight to the NBA.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@JayHawkFanToo It was still KU’s least successful team under Self by losing 10 games that season.
No PG.
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@BShark Not even KU’s worst PG situation under Self and the PG situation wasn’t even the biggest reason why that team struggled. That team was all 1st and 2nd year players within the program.
The 2018-19 is starting to look a lot like that team in terms of experience. Unless Vick stays, KU won’t have any seniors in 2018-19 and Lightfoot would be the only guy in the program more than 2 years.
Self and KU need Lagerald Vick to stay for his senior year to provide that senior leadership the team will need to make a run.
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Disagree.
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@BShark Senior EJ was a much worse PG than So. That’s and it’s not even close. The 2013 team wins a title with better PG play. The 2014 was never winning a title with their lack of experience.
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If Devonte is anywhere close to what Mason did as a senior, Vick might be tempted to come back and be the team leader and follow on Mason and Graham footsteps.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think next year will be fine regardless of Vick staying or leaving. Having guys in the program a year before playing and in the case of the Lawsons already a couple years removed from HS helps a lot. Garrett as a player’s voice that knows what the coaches want is nice too. Might take a bit longer to gel but I’m not overly worried.
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@BShark The Lawson’s maturity is a big issue. Neither is Tarik Black in that regard. Without Vick, Dedric is one of the leaders of the team and that should scare the hell out of a lot of people with his maturity issues.
And that 13-14 team had plenty of players who had been in the program for a year and more players who had actually played for KU than next year’s team potentially and still did nothing to help that team. Even bringing in a senior graduate transfer did little to help that team.
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I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. We will see who is right next year.
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@BShark Just ask yourself this question in regards to how much experience means to a Bill Self team. Self has had to replace his entire starting line up 3 times at Kansas, how well has KU done in each of those seasons with a brand new starting 5?
In 2005-06, KU lost 8 games and lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament to Bradley. In 2008-09, Kansas lost 8 games again and lost to Michigan St. in the Sweet 16. And then the 2013-14 team lost 10 games and lost to Stanford in the second round.
That’s what I’m basing my predictions on. What KU has done when in similar situations in the past and they’ve never looked like title contenders, and never came close to a Final Four in any of the previous times they’ve replaced their starting 5.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 You are right and wrong at the same time concerning 2013, imo. That team went into freefall because an experienced “point guard” sucked. We might’ve been able to hide Tharpe’s woeful game another game or two in the tourney if Embiid stays on the court, but after Joel went down the team simply collapsed. The lack of experience hurt bigtime. But Naadir’s play hurt worse. That team truly had no ball handlers …no passing …it was the weakest backcourt Bill has ever had. Dotson comes in as a rookie miles ahead of anyone on that roster in 2013 ( Frank was just getting his feet wet ). Now, that doesn’t mean he’s Frank or Devonte, but guards have always adapted much quicker to Bill’s system. And you have a lightening quick, relentless guard who specializes in driving to the basket, who is considered a phenomenal passer …lots to love about about this kid. The kid gets a break by joining a very talented roster, with 3 college transfers coming in at the same time, along with 2 really good young freshmen on the front line. I would love to see Vick come back, but if he doesn’t, I don’t think that automatically means we’ll have a sucky year.
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@KUSTEVE I never said Tharpe was good, just that he was far better than EJ running the show.
Also 05-06 and 08-09 had better PG situations than KU will have next year (RusRob and Chalmers in 05-06 and JR. Sherron in 08-09) so even if Dotson is better than advertised, he’s probably not going to be better than So. RusRob or JR. Sherron.
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HELL NO. Not if Devon Dotson has anything to do with it. Love this kid’s attitude to go get other recruits.
Already leading like a point guard. Go get 'em and bring 'em to the Phog. Get your team and bring a NC to Lawrence.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think we’re talking about who gets the shots. if we’re going strictly by the numbers, and Mario’s numbers were 11.5 ppg his freshman season because he wasn’t a primary scorer…that wasn’t his role yet. Yet JJ came in his fr year, and averaged almost 17, so it has to do with the role you have with the team. And if Dotson can drive to the hole, and can score or get fouled, Bill will utilize that. How many drives did TT and Frank take in their careers? He loves guards that take the ball to the rim. I think you are attempting to generalize numbers that were created by players that had different roles than what Dotson comes into when he steps in as starter.
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@KUSTEVE Where did I say anything about the stats?
The 05-06 and 08-09 teams each had PG’s with experience in Self’s system whereas Dotson and Moore will have no game experience next year. There’s going to be a much steeper learning curve at the PG position than we’ve ever seen at KU.
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I’m trying to think of the nicest way to say it…
Russ Rob was…an okay player. Yeah I’ll go with that.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 There are exceptions to rules all the time. The truth is, our experience at point guard has overcome our lack of talent at pg ( not including Frank and Devonte after they developed ). Frank wasn’t anointed starting pg when he signed, he fought and scrapped for it. Same with Devonte. These were top 100 type pgs who have developed into stars. They didn’t instantly get starter’s minutes. This will be quite a new experience for us…to first have a freshman running the team ( it does make you gulp ), and to have such a talented player. If Bill can take 3 star recruits and turn them into national player of the year, what can he do with a 5 star recruit?
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@KUSTEVE It’s not new though to have highly rated guys coming in and playing PG early on. Russell Robinson, Mario Chalmers, and Sherron Collins were all 5 star players who got rotation or starter level minutes from day 1 under Self. The difference is each of those guys had a more experienced player that ran the show the majority of the time ahead of them while Dotson won’t have that luxury.
Robinson backed up senior Aaron Miles ahead of him, Chalmers played next to sophomore Robinson, and Sherron backed up senior Robinson. Dotson is expected to be the man from day 1 and will have another 1st year player at KU backing him up in Charlie Moore who looked less than impressive in Italy.
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@BShark Russell Robinson is still playing professional basketball. He wasn’t the best scorer at KU, but he didn’t need to be and he’s been the best defensive PG of the Self era by far.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BShark Russell Robinson is still playing professional basketball. He wasn’t the best scorer at KU, but he didn’t need to be and he’s been the best defensive PG of the Self era by far.
Back when playing defense was allowed. Not sure how he’d fare now.
Edit: Something we do agree on it seems is Charlie Moore.
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Agree on RussRob. He came in to KU as a scorer and almost left the program when he was asked to be a ball distributor. Once he embraced the role, he became the key component for the ‘07-‘08 Title team.
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OK so since Quentin’s visit this past weekend , that now means he just has the one visit left right? - - Marquette? So do we think he will end up taking that visit or not? I still believe our biggest threat if there is one in this is Texas - not UK - Another example with friends on the team plus knowing a lot of their players - & I dunno but that little shit Shaka - he is making some in roads for Texas - -can’t trust that guy lol.- Ya I think he takes his visit to Marquette .
One other thing , Now I know this won’t be popular with what I say and I’m sorry but guys I just don’t feel we are going to land Zion Williamson. - -Sorry - -just not feeling it.
I think with his connection with IQ & IQ and UK - that’s where he lands. - -IQ was quoted as saying he had gotten a text from Zion saying UK was even better then he had imagined & he couldn’t believe how the UK fans felt like family. – Like someone else said it would be a little different if he was talking to the press like this - but this was with IQ -if it’s with the press what do you expect the kid to say - -pretty much standard response - ya the school was great - -the visit was great - Some people saying cause a couple of CB now show Kentucky - they say well that’s just because of his visit - normal - I don’t think so - just like my gut was telling me about Devon - -same way with Zion - -just don’t think it’s gonna happen.
It will be ok though as I feel we have got a really good shot for Romeo keeping fingers crossed - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Schools that aren’t KU on his list are window dressing. Don’t @ meeeeeeeeeeee.
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@BShark wish you were talking about Zion.
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I like Zion, but the more I think about it, the fit is just weird. How do we play him? He’s a collegiate 4, but what if Udoka comes back? Do we square peg round hole him as a wing? I mean Self can figure it out, but I just think Langford is the better fit.
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Udoka plays center while Zion is a PF; perhaps you are thinking of Billy Preston that also plays forward.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Udoka plays center while Zion is a PF; perhaps you are thinking of Billy Preston that also plays forward.
The point is you would want to start Doke, Dedric and Zion I imagine. Which creates spacing issues.
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Man I’d love to have that problem. Heck throw in Langford so we have a minutes dilemma also.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
I like Zion, but the more I think about it, the fit is just weird. How do we play him? He’s a collegiate 4, but what if Udoka comes back? Do we square peg round hole him as a wing? I mean Self can figure it out, but I just think Langford is the better fit.
Very good question.
What if Zion signs with Kentucky or Duke or one of the local schools Do you want to face him?
The more that I see of Zion the more I see the matchup issues he’ll cause in College. Zion is an outlier physically and athletically at the College level. How do you possibly guard Zion with today’s typical College 3 or 4 for that matter. It’s a huge matchup advantage to have at your disposal and something I would love to see Self challenged with figuring out how to best use him instead of figuring out how to stop him. That is why I think he’s a take no matter the fit.
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Wow just read , good thing things turned out like they did it looks like. - At one time - -at one point a kid Ku was recruiting to some extent any ways - Emmitt Williams was arrested early this morning in Florida for Felony Sexual Battery & False imprisonment, - -man that’s something we sure don’t need. Thank goodness with us getting De Sousa & McCormack turns out not longer in the picture for us.
I would imagine schools might be backing off of him some now not sure but would reckon so. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Well I seriously doubt he is a take for Duke now. If he ever was.
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My point was that Doke and Zion do not play the same position where Zion and Preston do. Udoka returning would likely not affect Zion where Preston returning probably would. Nothing more than that
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Just clarifying the point. Doke returning likely would mean Zion plays the 3 almost exclusively. I think he ends up at UK though.
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All hypotheticals at this point since we don’t know what Preston would do. If Doke and Preston return and Zion joins, KU would have one impressive collection of bigs, the equivalent of what it has in smalls now.
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Don’t think that situation is remotely possible.
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Depends on whether Zion signs with KU and when he does it. Granted, not likely but possible.
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Man, I like a wealth of highly talented bigs. It’s been a while. Lets hope it all pans out. But I sure like the two we have heading into the stable right now.
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I don’t think KU is likely to land Zion, he just has the makings of a UK player.
UK will turn the pressure up on him if RJ Barrett signs with Duke.
UK does have a stable of forwards that play the 3/4 that could possibly be back next year so I think he’d want to know they are leaving before he signed but who knows maybe he’s just the latest player to sign with them that has no issues who’s on the roster.
The one advantage for KU here is Dotson committed and from everything we know they have a solid relationship. We “evened” the playing field with UK in that regards who also has his buddy Quickly signed.
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@BeddieKU23 I think Zion is a wait until the Spring guy.
A lot of factors are going to be playing in to his decision. Obviously, it all depends on who comes back next season and who is signed between now and then. This reminds me of the Wiggins recruitment a lot. UK was in it with Wiggins and was probably the favorite at one point. But UK kept signing guys. And kept signing guys. And kept signing guys. Had an 8 man class, Wiggins would have made 9. I wouldn’t have wanted to go play at UK either if I was him and trying to be the #1 overall pick.
Right now, I could see UK or KU doing the same thing. If KU lands Langford and Grimes before Zion decides, I’m confident he is UK bound.
If UK lands Grimes and KJ before Zion decides, I think Zion is KU bound.
If Doke or Vick return, I think Zion is UK bound.
If Gabriel or Richards returns, I think Zion is KU bound.
If UK lands Barrett, Zion to KU looks like a damn near done deal.
If UK and KU both end up too loaded, I think Zion might actually stay home and play for Clemson.
I mean there is just a lot for him to think about. And until it all plays out, I just don’t see that decision coming soon.
Not to mention, the shoe deals that are going on in the background as we speak. Let’s not pretend like Adidas and Nike reps aren’t finding a way to communicate with him through back-channels and agents.
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Oh, and how Knox does. If UK really really struggles and Knox sucks up the place and falls to like 20s and Diallo can’t shoot and has to stay another year, why in the world would Zion’s family trust Cal to get their kid to the NBA as a Wing?
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@Kcmatt7 I think Grimes and KJ are mutually exclusive. Just my read on the situation. I also think UK is making a power play with KJ because they know where they stand with Grimes. MAYBE WISHFUL THINKING ON MY PART.
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@BShark I would think so as well, but Cal defie$ logic $ometime$.
