Are we done recruiting?
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@KUSTEVE Where did I say anything about the stats?
The 05-06 and 08-09 teams each had PG’s with experience in Self’s system whereas Dotson and Moore will have no game experience next year. There’s going to be a much steeper learning curve at the PG position than we’ve ever seen at KU.
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I’m trying to think of the nicest way to say it…
Russ Rob was…an okay player. Yeah I’ll go with that.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 There are exceptions to rules all the time. The truth is, our experience at point guard has overcome our lack of talent at pg ( not including Frank and Devonte after they developed ). Frank wasn’t anointed starting pg when he signed, he fought and scrapped for it. Same with Devonte. These were top 100 type pgs who have developed into stars. They didn’t instantly get starter’s minutes. This will be quite a new experience for us…to first have a freshman running the team ( it does make you gulp ), and to have such a talented player. If Bill can take 3 star recruits and turn them into national player of the year, what can he do with a 5 star recruit?
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@KUSTEVE It’s not new though to have highly rated guys coming in and playing PG early on. Russell Robinson, Mario Chalmers, and Sherron Collins were all 5 star players who got rotation or starter level minutes from day 1 under Self. The difference is each of those guys had a more experienced player that ran the show the majority of the time ahead of them while Dotson won’t have that luxury.
Robinson backed up senior Aaron Miles ahead of him, Chalmers played next to sophomore Robinson, and Sherron backed up senior Robinson. Dotson is expected to be the man from day 1 and will have another 1st year player at KU backing him up in Charlie Moore who looked less than impressive in Italy.
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@BShark Russell Robinson is still playing professional basketball. He wasn’t the best scorer at KU, but he didn’t need to be and he’s been the best defensive PG of the Self era by far.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BShark Russell Robinson is still playing professional basketball. He wasn’t the best scorer at KU, but he didn’t need to be and he’s been the best defensive PG of the Self era by far.
Back when playing defense was allowed. Not sure how he’d fare now.
Edit: Something we do agree on it seems is Charlie Moore.
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Agree on RussRob. He came in to KU as a scorer and almost left the program when he was asked to be a ball distributor. Once he embraced the role, he became the key component for the ‘07-‘08 Title team.
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OK so since Quentin’s visit this past weekend , that now means he just has the one visit left right? - - Marquette? So do we think he will end up taking that visit or not? I still believe our biggest threat if there is one in this is Texas - not UK - Another example with friends on the team plus knowing a lot of their players - & I dunno but that little shit Shaka - he is making some in roads for Texas - -can’t trust that guy lol.- Ya I think he takes his visit to Marquette .
One other thing , Now I know this won’t be popular with what I say and I’m sorry but guys I just don’t feel we are going to land Zion Williamson. - -Sorry - -just not feeling it.
I think with his connection with IQ & IQ and UK - that’s where he lands. - -IQ was quoted as saying he had gotten a text from Zion saying UK was even better then he had imagined & he couldn’t believe how the UK fans felt like family. – Like someone else said it would be a little different if he was talking to the press like this - but this was with IQ -if it’s with the press what do you expect the kid to say - -pretty much standard response - ya the school was great - -the visit was great - Some people saying cause a couple of CB now show Kentucky - they say well that’s just because of his visit - normal - I don’t think so - just like my gut was telling me about Devon - -same way with Zion - -just don’t think it’s gonna happen.
It will be ok though as I feel we have got a really good shot for Romeo keeping fingers crossed - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Schools that aren’t KU on his list are window dressing. Don’t @ meeeeeeeeeeee.
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@BShark wish you were talking about Zion.
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I like Zion, but the more I think about it, the fit is just weird. How do we play him? He’s a collegiate 4, but what if Udoka comes back? Do we square peg round hole him as a wing? I mean Self can figure it out, but I just think Langford is the better fit.
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Udoka plays center while Zion is a PF; perhaps you are thinking of Billy Preston that also plays forward.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Udoka plays center while Zion is a PF; perhaps you are thinking of Billy Preston that also plays forward.
The point is you would want to start Doke, Dedric and Zion I imagine. Which creates spacing issues.
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Man I’d love to have that problem. Heck throw in Langford so we have a minutes dilemma also.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
I like Zion, but the more I think about it, the fit is just weird. How do we play him? He’s a collegiate 4, but what if Udoka comes back? Do we square peg round hole him as a wing? I mean Self can figure it out, but I just think Langford is the better fit.
Very good question.
What if Zion signs with Kentucky or Duke or one of the local schools Do you want to face him?
The more that I see of Zion the more I see the matchup issues he’ll cause in College. Zion is an outlier physically and athletically at the College level. How do you possibly guard Zion with today’s typical College 3 or 4 for that matter. It’s a huge matchup advantage to have at your disposal and something I would love to see Self challenged with figuring out how to best use him instead of figuring out how to stop him. That is why I think he’s a take no matter the fit.
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Wow just read , good thing things turned out like they did it looks like. - At one time - -at one point a kid Ku was recruiting to some extent any ways - Emmitt Williams was arrested early this morning in Florida for Felony Sexual Battery & False imprisonment, - -man that’s something we sure don’t need. Thank goodness with us getting De Sousa & McCormack turns out not longer in the picture for us.
I would imagine schools might be backing off of him some now not sure but would reckon so. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Well I seriously doubt he is a take for Duke now. If he ever was.
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My point was that Doke and Zion do not play the same position where Zion and Preston do. Udoka returning would likely not affect Zion where Preston returning probably would. Nothing more than that
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Just clarifying the point. Doke returning likely would mean Zion plays the 3 almost exclusively. I think he ends up at UK though.
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All hypotheticals at this point since we don’t know what Preston would do. If Doke and Preston return and Zion joins, KU would have one impressive collection of bigs, the equivalent of what it has in smalls now.
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Don’t think that situation is remotely possible.
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Depends on whether Zion signs with KU and when he does it. Granted, not likely but possible.
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Man, I like a wealth of highly talented bigs. It’s been a while. Lets hope it all pans out. But I sure like the two we have heading into the stable right now.
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I don’t think KU is likely to land Zion, he just has the makings of a UK player.
UK will turn the pressure up on him if RJ Barrett signs with Duke.
UK does have a stable of forwards that play the 3/4 that could possibly be back next year so I think he’d want to know they are leaving before he signed but who knows maybe he’s just the latest player to sign with them that has no issues who’s on the roster.
The one advantage for KU here is Dotson committed and from everything we know they have a solid relationship. We “evened” the playing field with UK in that regards who also has his buddy Quickly signed.
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@BeddieKU23 I think Zion is a wait until the Spring guy.
A lot of factors are going to be playing in to his decision. Obviously, it all depends on who comes back next season and who is signed between now and then. This reminds me of the Wiggins recruitment a lot. UK was in it with Wiggins and was probably the favorite at one point. But UK kept signing guys. And kept signing guys. And kept signing guys. Had an 8 man class, Wiggins would have made 9. I wouldn’t have wanted to go play at UK either if I was him and trying to be the #1 overall pick.
Right now, I could see UK or KU doing the same thing. If KU lands Langford and Grimes before Zion decides, I’m confident he is UK bound.
If UK lands Grimes and KJ before Zion decides, I think Zion is KU bound.
If Doke or Vick return, I think Zion is UK bound.
If Gabriel or Richards returns, I think Zion is KU bound.
If UK lands Barrett, Zion to KU looks like a damn near done deal.
If UK and KU both end up too loaded, I think Zion might actually stay home and play for Clemson.
I mean there is just a lot for him to think about. And until it all plays out, I just don’t see that decision coming soon.
Not to mention, the shoe deals that are going on in the background as we speak. Let’s not pretend like Adidas and Nike reps aren’t finding a way to communicate with him through back-channels and agents.
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Oh, and how Knox does. If UK really really struggles and Knox sucks up the place and falls to like 20s and Diallo can’t shoot and has to stay another year, why in the world would Zion’s family trust Cal to get their kid to the NBA as a Wing?
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@Kcmatt7 I think Grimes and KJ are mutually exclusive. Just my read on the situation. I also think UK is making a power play with KJ because they know where they stand with Grimes. MAYBE WISHFUL THINKING ON MY PART.
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@BShark I would think so as well, but Cal defie$ logic $ometime$.
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@Kcmatt7 Btw as for Herro I think KU should take his commitment if he wants to give it over waiting around for Romeo. Talented multi-year guy.
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I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
Clickbait Jimmy assures me it’s MD and that the dad loves MD.
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Good points, it might be beneficial that Zion waits until spring. Still a lot of moving parts as you have laid out some of them.
I think the two things work in our favor, Dotson and the previous wings that have come through this program recently. Self does cater his offenses around these types of guys so I don’t think Duke and Kentucky can get away with negatively recruiting against Self in that regard. Dotson also was a player that had excellent chemistry with Zion and Zion would know what type of player would be setting up his shots and running the team.
This is the heavyweight recruitment we can definitely win. It seems unlikely but I wouldn’t be shocked either
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@BShark It would be hard to make a case against that. I’m definitely one of those “bird in the hand” types of guys.
However, I have my reservations about 6’5 sharp shooters in Self’s system. Svi has not looked like we expected, BG was ran out of town, Andrew White was recruited right over, Alex Galindo didn’t last, Giddens was never consistent before his incident, and Micah Downs bolted. It is almost like Self’s break them down to build them up approach doesn’t work with guys who are just shooters because their psyche is more fragile or something.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
Clickbait Jimmy assures me it’s MD and that the dad loves MD.
Watch that sentiment change. I think KJ has thrown a ton of misdirection at Maryland. He’ll end up at Texas before Maryland and I think Kentucky is just going to show him he’s their guy. That’s how I see it
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BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
Clickbait Jimmy assures me it’s MD and that the dad loves MD.
Watch that sentiment change. I think KJ has thrown a ton of misdirection at Maryland. He’ll end up at Texas before Maryland and I think Kentucky is just going to show him he’s their guy. That’s how I see it
He waited until minutes before the Dotson announcement, so it will be awhile.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Good points, it might be beneficial that Zion waits until spring. Still a lot of moving parts as you have laid out some of them.
I think the two things work in our favor, Dotson and the previous wings that have come through this program recently. Self does cater his offenses around these types of guys so I don’t think Duke and Kentucky can get away with negatively recruiting against Self in that regard. Dotson also was a player that had excellent chemistry with Zion and Zion would know what type of player would be setting up his shots and running the team.
This is the heavyweight recruitment we can definitely win. It seems unlikely but I wouldn’t be shocked either
Adidas did work getting that pairing to happen for a tournament. Not saying it wasn’t all above board but they did work.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@BShark It would be hard to make a case against that. I’m definitely one of those “bird in the hand” types of guys.
However, I have my reservations about 6’5 sharp shooters in Self’s system. Svi has not looked like we expected, BG was ran out of town, Andrew White was recruited right over, Alex Galindo didn’t last, Giddens was never consistent before his incident, and Micah Downs bolted. It is almost like Self’s break them down to build them up approach doesn’t work with guys who are just shooters because their psyche is more fragile or something.
Svi actually isn’t really a sharp shooter though. He’s been doing more things and he has always kinda been a volume type guy. Now Frank in his SR year, that was
BG and AWIII were not athletic enough to thrive under Self. I’ll tell you though that AWIII was not ran out of town.
dad situation.Anyway I do somewhat agree with you on the general take. I think if KU is considering him they need to take a long hard look in regards to if they feel he is athletic enough to get minutes for Self.
Before anyone mentions Brady it’s obvious why he played.
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@BShark Like I said, 6’5 guys. Not Brady, Tyrell or Frank. They do enough things well that when they aren’t making shots they can still impact the game. But when a shooter isn’t even shooting well and then getting beat on D and Self is in their ear, I can understand why they break down.
As far as Svi goes, I think he has the skillset to do more offensively than he has. With that being said, he takes twice as many 3 balls as he does 2 point shots… So he has been in that role. And hasn’t been bad, but just hasn’t been great.
I loved AWIII. One of my favorite players who I think just got a raw deal. Worked out for him in the end it looks like. He was given every opportunity at a premier program and landed with the Celtics.
But long story short, there is somewhat of a trend… I think Herro will need to be able to play some D or score at multiple levels in order to succeed under Self.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
Clickbait Jimmy assures me it’s MD and that the dad loves MD.
Watch that sentiment change. I think KJ has thrown a ton of misdirection at Maryland. He’ll end up at Texas before Maryland and I think Kentucky is just going to show him he’s their guy. That’s how I see it
He waited until minutes before the Dotson announcement, so it will be awhile.
Looks like Maryland a major player for one time target Jarius Hamilton. Remember his coach was a huge KU fan. A lot of programs went the other way on him after his poor summer. Tools to be a top 100 player but he certainly didn’t play like one this summer. Maryland after someone to replace KJ I think
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Good points, it might be beneficial that Zion waits until spring. Still a lot of moving parts as you have laid out some of them.
I think the two things work in our favor, Dotson and the previous wings that have come through this program recently. Self does cater his offenses around these types of guys so I don’t think Duke and Kentucky can get away with negatively recruiting against Self in that regard. Dotson also was a player that had excellent chemistry with Zion and Zion would know what type of player would be setting up his shots and running the team.
This is the heavyweight recruitment we can definitely win. It seems unlikely but I wouldn’t be shocked either
Adidas did work getting that pairing to happen for a tournament. Not saying it wasn’t all above board but they did work.
Agree I’m sure there was some influence involved. It’s just like any Nike event held…
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Kcmatt7 said:
But long story short, there is somewhat of a trend… I think Herro will need to be able to play some D or score at multiple levels in order to succeed under Self.
Pretty sure we are on the exact same page.
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BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
Clickbait Jimmy assures me it’s MD and that the dad loves MD.
Watch that sentiment change. I think KJ has thrown a ton of misdirection at Maryland. He’ll end up at Texas before Maryland and I think Kentucky is just going to show him he’s their guy. That’s how I see it
He waited until minutes before the Dotson announcement, so it will be awhile.
Looks like Maryland a major player for one time target Jarius Hamilton. Remember his coach was a huge KU fan. A lot of programs went the other way on him after his poor summer. Tools to be a top 100 player but he certainly didn’t play like one this summer. Maryland after someone to replace KJ I think
Clickbait Jimmy tells me MD would take both. Just like they would have taken Dotson and Ayala no doubt.
Oh and agree about Hamilton in general he played himself OUT of big offers this summer with his horrible shooting.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I think the smart money is on KJ ending up at Kentucky after pushing that announcement back.
Crazy that Herro isn’t going to be a Badger. He’s real good and it sounds like he knows it.
Clickbait Jimmy assures me it’s MD and that the dad loves MD.
Watch that sentiment change. I think KJ has thrown a ton of misdirection at Maryland. He’ll end up at Texas before Maryland and I think Kentucky is just going to show him he’s their guy. That’s how I see it
He waited until minutes before the Dotson announcement, so it will be awhile.
Looks like Maryland a major player for one time target Jarius Hamilton. Remember his coach was a huge KU fan. A lot of programs went the other way on him after his poor summer. Tools to be a top 100 player but he certainly didn’t play like one this summer. Maryland after someone to replace KJ I think
Clickbait Jimmy tells me MD would take both. Just like they would have taken Dotson and Ayala no doubt.
Oh and agree about Hamilton in general he played himself OUT of big offers this summer with his horrible shooting.
He went from lock to stay in-state to lock to leave the state. Not saying Maryland wouldn’t get use out of him but they need to take a big reality check with why they are even an option for him
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Pitino suing Adidas, talk about biting the hand that feeds you…
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@BeddieKU23 If I was KU, I’d be as transparent as possible in the Zion recruitment and give them 4 or 5 different projected depth charts, ranked from the most likely to the least likely and where he would fit in those.
Scenario #1:
- PG - Dotson 25 MPG - Moore 15 MPG
- SG - Grimes 25 MPG- Garrett 10 MPG
- SF - Zion 30 MPG - Garrett 10 MPG - Cunliffe - 0 MPG
- PF - Lawson 28 MPG - De Sousa 10 MPG- Lawson 2 MPG - Lightfoot
- C - Doke 25 PMG - Big Dave 12 MPG - De Sousa - 3 MPG
Scenario #2 -
- PG - Dotson 25 MPG - Moore 15 MPG
- SG - Grimes 25 MPG - Langford 10 MPG - Garrett 5 MPG
- SF - Langford 20 MPG - Zion 10 MPG - Garrett 10 MPG - Cunliffe 0 MPG
- PF - Zion 20 MPG - De Sousa 15 MPG - Lawson 5 MPG - Lightfoot 0 MPG
- C - Lawson 28 MPG - Big Dave 12 MPG
Scenario #3-
- PG - Dotson 20 MPG - Moore 20 MPG
- SG - Vick 20 MPG - Garrett 12 MPG - Dotson - 5 MPG
- SF - Zion 20 MPG - Garrett 10 MPG - Vick 10 MPG - Cunliffe 0 MPG
- PF - De Sousa 20 MPG - Zion 10 MPG - Lawson 5 MPG - Lawson 5 MPG - Lightfoot - 0 MPG
- C - Lawson 25 MPG - Big Dave - 15 MPG
Scenario #4-
- PG - Dotson 15 MPG - Moore 25 MPG
- SG - Garrett 20 MPG- Dotson 15 MPG - Cunliffe - 5 MPG
- SF - Zion 20 MPG - Garrett 12 MPG - Cunliffe - 8 MPG
- PF - De Sousa 20 MPG- Zion 10 MPG - Lawson 5 MPG- Lawson 5 MPG - Lightfoot 0 MPG
- C - Lawson 25 MPG - Big Dave 15 MPG
Scenario #5:
- PG - Dotson 28 MPG - Moore 12 MPG
- SG - Grimes 28 MPG - Garrett - 3 MPG - Vick 10 MPG
- SF - Vick 18 MPG - Zion 12 MPG - Garrett 10 MPG - Cunliffe 0 MPG
- PF - Zion 18 MPG - Lawson 11 MPG - De Sousa 11 MPG - Lawson 0 MPG- Lightfoot 0 MPG
- C - Doke 23 MPG - Lawson 8 MPG - Big Dave 9 MPG
Either way, there is room for Zion and Self does a great job of showcasing Wings/4s. B-Mac, T-Rob, Wiggs, JJ, Selden, Oubre, Rush, Releford (12 ppg and 40%+ from trey his Senior year), Arthur and the Morris Twins all are examples of Self being able to exploit mismatches at the spot Zion will be playing. Nobody else recruiting him has that same resume.
If this were a 5 or a PG, Duke and UK probably have the edge resume-wise. But this is Bill’s sweet spot. I like our chances.
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@Kcmatt7 Nice breakdown.
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The math is slightly off in some of the scenarios but nothing big. You have Garret playing anywhere between 13 and 32 minutes, do you think there would be that much of a swing?
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@JayHawkFanToo I do. Of course that mostly depends on landing recruits. Without Zion, basically assume any minutes he would have had at the 3 would go to Garrett if he doesn’t come here.
The thing that will be interesting is how much KJ Lawson plays. We are obviously going to be recruiting the two younger Lawson’s and their cousin. Dedric is basically booked for 25-30 minutes guaranteed. But KJ might not even see the floor depending on what all happens. And that could really make recruiting interesting.
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@Kcmatt7 Not sure how serious of a target the cousin is. I think he ends up at UK. Solid point about KJ. Self seems to like him but if the staff lands all their top targets I’m not sure how he finds minutes.
