Lagerald vs Svi

  • I just spent a few minutes looking over our roster.

    It appears that we have two players that will be THE BENCH for positions PG-3… Lagerald and Svi.

    I believe Lagerald will get most of his minutes at the 2 this year, except in moments when both Lagerald and Svi are at the 1 and 2 spots and we are bound to give Lagerald a shot at PG.

    We are really thin in our bench when considering that we only have two guys to help out at 3 positions. Maybe Mitch Lightfoot can sneak in some minutes at the 3?

    For the sake of discussion, I would like to just consider spare minutes at the 2-spot. If everything else is equal, which player is more likely to perform best at the 2, Lagerald or Svi? We don’t seem to know much about Lagerald’s current level of play, except from hearing Bill rave about his recent development. Will Lagerald become “the man” for relief minutes at the 2 this year? So will we always have either Frank or Devonte on the court (except for mop up minutes), and one of them will always cover PG duties?

    In my mind, the relief minutes this year for Lagerald and Svi will look something like this:

    Legerald - 80% of his minutes at the 2, 20% at PG

    Svi - 80% of his minutes at the 3, 20% at the 2

    In the past, I looked at these two and thought there may be some heavy competition for minutes at the same spot. It doesn’t look like that now.

    With the extra strength added by Svi, he now seems to be falling into the 3-spot as his natural position.

    The only thing I am sure about with these two players is their importance to our success this year. BOTH PLAYERS are very important and there is a good chance one or both will receive quite a bit of media attention at some point this year, when they are counted on to pull some major weight.

    It would be great if others would throw in their two cents on this topic. And if anyone has experienced Lagerald’s play over the past months, to share their opinion.

  • I’ve kind of been out of it for a while but has Self said Jackson has the starting role sealed up or are we just assuming that? It seems to me there could be a little healthy competition for our OAD at that 3 spot. Svi is STILL young enough to have the “potential” label, plus he has experience. The 3 spot traditionally under Self has been a 3 pt shooting role, which is apparently JJ’s weak spot.

    Also, last year Self experimented with Svi at point a couple of times. He definitely has the vision. The handles? Maybe not. It certainly will be interesting to see Vick’s progression. All I know is that I read he shot 1000 jumpers a day or something like that.

    Instead of looking at it as 2 bench players to cover 3 starter spots, I think it’s more beneficial to think about it as 5 players cover 3 positions on the floor. The real question is the point guard spot. Will Self rotate Mason and Graham enough to keep them fresh or will he play them together a majority of the time forcing one or both to play BIG minutes risking injury and guaranteeing wear and tear?

  • @drgnslayr I haven’t seen ball handling/distribution from Vick that would make me think he could be a good PG so Svi would be my first PG3 option.

    Personally, I would even rank Josh Jackson as a better emergency PG option than Vick. Granted this is off an extremely small sample size of watching both of them play.

  • @drgnslayr Here’s a question, Is there any possibility of Clay Young or Tyler Self or Tucker Vang getting spot duties at PG, SG? Would Coach Self trust his sons abilities during his senior year to give him minutes at PG or SG to spell Frank and DG if needed? Not that we are in a crunch for players here like we were in 11-12 when our bench consisted of Conner Teahan

  • @Lulufulu No.

  • Vick will be the backup 2, with some backup at 1 and 3. His defense will get him more PT out of position than Svi. Vick will rarely play the 1 because that will go to Mason and Graham 95% of the time. It will be rare to see Self take them both out, and when he takes one out, the other will play point. So Vick will play the 2 the vast majority of the time, sometimes coming in at the 3 for defense and/or small ball with JJ playing the 4.

    JJ will start at the 3 and convert to the 4 spot during small ball. Zero chance he won’t start right off the bat.

  • @chriz said:

    Vick will rarely play the 1 because that will go to Mason and Graham 95% of the time.

    That sounds right. So Mason and Graham will sit together for 2 minutes.

    For 38 minutes, at least one of them will be on the floor.

    Self will want them to play together for 30 minutes at least.

    That leaves 8 minutes rest to split between the two players. So on average they will play 34 minutes a game, unless the wheels come off when one or both are sitting.

    Mason’s twitter handle should be @NickedUP

    So that leaves 10 minutes at the 2 spot and 2 minutes at PG: Vick

    Svi replaces Jackson for breathers, foul trouble and occasional brain lock.

    The dynamic will change with foul trouble or injuries, until which I’m giving Vick the preseason “Hunter Mickelson Cryogenic Award”.

  • @drgnslayr Back this post up and copy it to the new site man!

    This is one that I would like to see continued into the winter.

    Another added thought regarding perimeter roster depth. Bill Self likes to have an 8 man rotation, solid. Case and point the 2008 team. Starting 5 plus Sherron, Kaun and Cole/Rodrick.

    We got that now with equal experience coming off the bench this year Our starting 5 plus Junior Svi, Soph Vic, Fresh Udoka. We still have Lightfoot and Coleby there too.

    Its hard to compare the two teams because there are a lot of fundamental differences. But I think we have every bit as much chance to match the win loss total of our NC team.

  • I listened to JNewells podcast yesterday and he was talking about Vick. He said just watching them practice/scrimmage for ten minutes he could tell no difference between him and Josh Jackson. Now, he’s not saying LG is as good as JJ, but in short flashes he showed a lot of game. We saw that last year. He’s the 2nd year player that I am most excited about. Bragg, if reports aren’t being exaggerated, will be very good this year too. But LG has got to get these minutes and he’ll become valued member of this years team.

  • @benshawks08

    Jackson had the job when he signed!

    Svi has a role on this team but he has to keep improving because there’s considerable reports now that Vick has improved to the point where he will play and may play a lot

  • @drgnslayr

    Mitch is not an option at the 3. We have major problems if that is the option we are put into.

    I think you nailed it on the %'s. Vick is going to see most of his time at the 2 guard spot and if he’s trusted to handle the ball, maybe some PG responsibilities. It seems he has really stepped up during this off-season which I was hoping he would do. I will be shocked if he doesn’t have a 20 pt scoring game at some point this season. He is wired to score.

    I actually think Svi would be the emergency PG just because he’s done it before at KU. I don’t anticipate we’ll need him to be that guy often but if we have big leads in games I would certainly like to see Svi & Vick getting some minutes with the ball just in case there is ever a situation.

    Absolutely agree on their importance. Both of them are in a position to help us win games. Guard play wins in March and we have so many options to throw at teams. It’s equally important that Bill Self doesn’t lose sight of his strengths this year. Give these guards freedom to make plays, its how this team will succeed. If this isn’t an outside to inside team we will fall short of our lofty goals for this season.

  • I think he fits the lead guard requirement and could bring the ball up the court against most teams.

  • Five guys on the perimeter is Self’s preferred rotation. We have five perimeter guys that we can solidly trust, so we are good there.

    Additionally, we have Malik Newman for practice reps so that Frank and Devonte don’t get too worn down since Newman can work with the second team in practice. That should keep everyone’s legs fresh even during the grind of conference season.

    So, as long as no one suffers a long term injury, we should be fine through the season. If, however, any of our main five guys goes down with an injury that will keep them out for more than a week or so, the toll could become too great and we may need to tag in one of the walk ons for spot duty (2 minutes per half) just to try and keep everyone fresh.

    The nice thing is that there are 120 minutes to go around, and with five guys, we can give everyone 20-30 minutes without over-taxing anyone.

  • @justanotherfan said:

    with five guys, we can give everyone 20-30 minutes without over-taxing anyone.

    But we won’t.

    That being said, nice post as usual.

  • Vick will be a very nice surprise. Even Fraschilla seems impressed

  • @BeddieKU23

    I believe Vick could play 3 in a pinch. Also, I would not be surprised to see Lightfoot play some 3; he likes to bang inside but he also has a decent outside touch. I wish Ellis would have started playing the 3 earlier but unfortunately KU did not have many options at the 4, this year KU is deeper at the 4 and Lightfoot could well play some 3.

  • Could we see Bragg at the 3 if Udoka is in with Lucas?

  • I think we will see Svi more at the 3 spot and Vick play the 1 and 2 spots. DG cant play PG as well, kinda like the 08 team as in 3 guys can bring it up the floor (Robinson, Chalmers and Collins). I also think with Self hinting at going small we could see Bragg or lightfoot get some PT at the 3 spot I like our depth a lot personally. I hope Mason doesn’t average 38 minutes a game this year, that’s tough on a guy for 35+ games. I like a starting line up of Mason, Graham, Jackson, Bragg and Lucas, a tall (outside of mason), long, very athletic team that can defend and push the ball at will. Then Vick, Svi, Udoka and lightfoot as subs. I know self usually likes his 8 or 9 man rotation so I doubt any else gets a ton of PT outside of mop up time. I don’t really see Coleby getting a ton of minutes this year coming off of his injury but who knows till we get a few weeks in and see who has made the best of their time.

  • @kjayhawks if we go small I think he’ll be using josh or Svi at 4, Bragg or Lucas at 5. Having 2 6’8" wings is a bonus. Not sure Bragg could guard a quick 3, like Naz long for example. Lots of options w/this group. Can’t wait to see what they can do. It all starts w/D

  • I don’t see putting Bragg at the 3. We lose the advantage that way. Who is going to guard Lucas or Buke or Coleby more than 10 feet from the basket? Nobody. So the moment you isolate Bragg downlow against a smaller player then he gets doubled. Won’t work this season.

    Now putting JJ or Svi at the 4 strictly depends on whether or not Buke or Coleby can play. If Lightfoot gets time this season either he is a competitor like Kevin Young or we are not doing so hot.

    I don’t see both Coleby and Buke being guys that struggle though. One of them will be ready to play 20+ mpg if not both of them playing 15 mpg.

    I hope Buke just is too much to handle down low and we have the depth to dominate.

  • It sounds as if Self really is open to playing a 4 guard lineup.

    Saying its dictated because of personnel is a reflection of just how far away Coleby & Udoka are from being reliable options in the post. That is the underlying message I got from him being so open about this flexibility in his offense

    Going to be an interesting season.

  • Self has to have the 4-guard option. That doesn’t mean he will necessarily use it.

    If Lucas and Bragg can both play 30 minutes and Udoka / Coleby share 20, then for that game the 4-guard option is…optional.

    Those are ifs.

    There are ifs in the other direction: if there is foul trouble; if there is injury trouble; if Udoka / Coleby don’t come through. In that case playing 4 guards becomes a necessity.

    I am sure playing small would be pleasing to the eye and to the won/loss record.

    I am also sure it would mean more minutes for Frank and Devonte. How many of you want that?

    Please, bigs, carry your weight!

  • @ParisHawk

    The 4 guard lineup could also be a consideration because of the makeup of the Big-12 this year. Down league for bigs, lots of guard oriented teams.

    Maybe he’s taking some pointers from what happened to us against Villanova. Beaten by a bunch of guards/wings and 1 post player. He’s seen enough of ISU’s action to know a guard heavy rotation with the right personnel works. We have that in theory this year.

    The other side of it is getting his 5 best players on the court. Jackson & Svi or Jackson & Vick on the court seems like an offensive paradise paired with Bragg! Defensively, eh I’ll wait to see if, in fact, it does happen.

  • The formula never changes.

    As usual, guard your man, help, protect, feed the post, and don’t let it stick keep you in the rotation.

    Stealing possessions and making open looks get you more minutes

    Vick and Svi are fighting for the same backup minutes at 2 and 3.

    Self will juggle Frank and Devonte at 1 90% of the time.

    The best ball handler between Vick and Svi will get trained in the 10% of pg minutes for the rainy day of injury to Frank, or Devonte.

    Svi will probably be the guy if equal, because of seniority and experience.

    But Vick was way young last season in age and could make a nonlinear leap in neural net grow in and steal the job because Self needs a long ball handler/defender for occasional matchups!

  • @BeddieKU23 I read you with great respect as always, but what about Frank’s minutes and his degree of nickeduptness in March?

  • @jayhawkeyes I honestly don’t think we will see Lucas and Udoka on the floor together very much if not at all. These are two really good players that do not complement each other very well. Neither is very mobile (guarding a quick 4, having to switch a screen or defend screen and roll) and neither is that great of a passer (I haven’t seen Udoka play very much yet). Both of them could create their own shots down low, rebound and set a heck of a screen. But I just don’t see them playing together very often

  • @ParisHawk

    Very good point Mason had a hobbled body in March. Unless he finds a way to take less of a punishment while having the same impact on the floor,we are probably at the mercy of his health.

    It’s his last go-around, he should know that he can be aggressive, get into the lane and not take as much of a punishment as he’s taken in the past. Something like a controlled chaos would help him.

  • @Statmachine Nice video, but good grief, don’t those refs know what a carry violation is?

  • @BeddieKU23

    I think “dictated by personnel” is more of a reflection of the fact that the most talented players on this roster are Jackson, Graham, Bragg, Mason and Svi. Vick, Lucas, Udoka, Coleby, Lightfoot, etc. can all play, but four of the best five guys on this roster are perimeter players, maybe 5 of the best 6, but definitely 5 of the best 7.

    Given that, you have to consider playing four of those guys at once, especially since Jackson and Svi are both big enough to handle some 4’s, and Vick can easily slide 1-3 against most college teams. It’s not a lineup I would show a lot, but it’s a lineup that has merit because you have to get your best players on the floor together and a lineup of Mason-Graham-Svi-Jackson-Bragg is arguably the best five KU has. I think Lucas and the other bigs will bring something to the table, but the best group is that group of five I listed.

  • Frank doesn’t have 10 extra games to play like last year, so I think he’ll be fresher than last year. Vick and Svi are the real deal. I’d think Vick would be a little more adept at running point, but Svi is no slouch, either. What a great advantage to have 5 good ball handlers on the perimeter.

  • @jayhawkeyes

    “Could we see Bragg at the 3 if Udoka is in with Lucas?”

    Wow… going big! Might that be as possible as us going small?

    Everyone in here knows I’m an x-axis, small ball directed guy. I like the talk about going with a 4-guard offense SOME of the time.

    Right now the talk is about a 4-guard offense.

    Here is what I see. I believe we WILL see a 4-guard offense early in the year (at times). I think is to check out the possibilities of what we can do with 4 guards. It can only work if our 5 does a great job of protecting the basket. This may be in the mix because we need to give Vick and Svi plenty of floor action. We need them to be seasoned by year’s end. This is an effort to “coach for March.” We often have blasted Bill for not planning for March. This idea of a 4-guard offense can help us in two ways: first, it helps give Vick and Svi plenty of PT immediately and that will help us down the stretch. Second, it will give us another option in games that aren’t going well. A 4-guard offense puts lots of speed and energy on the floor for us.

    We’ve already discussed BAD BALL returning. We don’t know what our offense will do this year. When we do go stale, it seems like energy is often the problem. A 4-guard offense is a way to add energy on the court.

    Looking at it even a bit differently… might this be Bill getting influenced by the ghost of El Mayor from ISU? When we talk about “going small” we are actually still keeping up with the height of most teams. But we are putting in big guards as forwards. Might this create match-up opportunities for us? Heck yes! I can see us running isolation plays for guys like Josh or Svi in the low post.

    My concern is the possible “thinness” of our backcourt. We are missing that extra big versatile guard this year with the loss of BG. We have to prepared for one of our guards to go down for a while.

    However… there are pluses/minuses with depth. Having a lot of it also creates problems. Mostly… who gets the PT? Who will rust out on the bench? There have always been lots of great teams that only go 6 or 7 players.

    I wonder what the impact of having so many “bigs” last year did to Bill’s perspective. Granted… our depth wasn’t all-star depth, but it was depth. It seemed that we finally came together only after Landen nailed down the 5. It is hard for a player to take ownership of his position if he isn’t the starter and holding on to the majority of minutes in that spot. Just look at what happened to Landen. His play jumped up considerably after he took ownership. The difference was night and day.

    I have a feeling Bill will be on a “fishing expedition” in the early season… looking for players to step up and take ownership, becominc accountable.

    Lots of questions in this thread… many directed at me. I wish I had answers, but actually, my motivation is to get all your opinions because I have as many questions as everyone else!

  • Ultimately… we have some questions about some of our bigs. We should have learned a lesson last year… we had the same issue of not having a dominate alternative in the post until Bill gave the 5 to Landen. I don’t think we want to deal with that issue this year. We need to spend more of the year playing championship-quality ball tweaking to continue to improve, instead of faltering and just trying to get up to that level in March.

    So what we need to do now is to solidify the strength of our core players. Bill wants Svi and Vick to become two of our core players for this year. They will have to be, if for no other reason than to give quality back up minutes at 1 - 3.

    I am doubtful we can win a National Championship without quality play from Svi and Vick. They don’t have to dominate the game, but we need quality minutes from both of these players.

  • @justanotherfan

    Do you think the 4 guard possibility will be used based on matchup or because putting the most talented guys on the floor gives KU the best advantage?

    I get this feeling based on the comments of going small is that Coleby, Udoka & Lightfoot are not ready to contribute in a fashion that would equal what bringing another guard into the game (Vick or Svi) could do.

  • @drgnslayr I don’t know if its as much coaching for March as it is coaching for next year. Vick needs pt so he will be more comfortable playing along side Newman next year too! Its a win/win for KU if we can get Vick some seasoning before next season with the possibility of a mass exodus looming just around the corner.

  • @drgnslayr

    Love the comment about the Mayor. We know Bill and Fred have a good relationship and I’m sure if he’s really considering changing the status quo at KU its because he’s seen enough to finally believe in it. Jay Wright might have had a big influence as well when the lasting impression of last season is being beat by a bunch of guards/wings and 1 big, the same one that cut down the nets.

    Is Bill finally learning that “adaptability” thing we always talk about here? Time will tell

  • @BeddieKU23

    I’m not ready to pat all of us on the back for hammering Bill on the Mayor’s “match-up style” NBA offense into the dialogue last year, but I do feel like Bill has been impacted by the Mayor and what he did with a bunch of small players. So imagine a bit of “Mayor offense” with players that are larger and more talented?

    I do think Bill is looking at his players and trying to give the most talented players (most talented in helping us) plenty of PT.

    There is so many ways to think about our team. So many possibilities.

    What if Bill suddenly thought, “I’m going 100% on defensive strength!”

    What would be our lineup?

  • @drgnslayr how tall of big are we playing? Not sure who our 5 would be.

  • @justanotherfan wondering if Vick is doing better than Svi? Coleby won’t play at all at 80%

  • @BeddieKU23

    Agree 100% that it puts the most talented guys on the floor. I think Coleby, Udoka and Lightfoot can help this year, but compared to Jackson, Svi, Vick, Mason and Graham, those three aren’t quite on that level. The only big guy I would really put up there is Bragg. Lucas will obviously contribute, but he’s still probably only the sixth or seventh most talented player on this team.

    This team should go small because it’s best players are perimeter guys, and they can still keep size on the floor with Jackson and Svi.

  • Defensively I don’t see a huge change from last year if we play “small”. Perry was not tall as a post player and neither was Jamari and neither guy was really known as a great defender in the post in general. I plan to see better defense this year no matter who is on the floor, small lineup or big.

  • @joeloveshawks Great point about Jamari and Perry. Svi and Josh are both as big as them yet more mobile with better handles.

    I’m not really worried defensively with a four guard lineup. We have seen teams go to the final four and win the championship with smaller teams- Villanova last year, UConn in in '14, and Butler back to back years in '10 and '11. It is more about rotations, staying aggressive and clogging the paint than it is about height, although that can help. Josh is known for being a good defender and having a lot of committment on that end of the floor, and he is as tall, maybe taller, than Perry and Mari, so we should be fine there.

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    I think we are talking about keeping either 6’10" Landen or 7’ Udoka at the 5. And if Carlton has firmed up his defense, he could go for some minutes at the 5.

    Svi is listed as 6’8". So his height at the 4 would be like a wash with Perry’s height last year.

    We aren’t really “going small” as much as putting reasonably tall guys with more handling skills at the 4.

    And then Josh is a natural 3. That position used to be called “shooting forward” but I like how people call it “swing guard” because of the athleticism and handling skills expected at that position now.

    I remember the day when the 3 and 4 were basically interchangeable. The concepts were 2 guards, 2 forwards and a center. Amazing how quickly the game changes.

  • @mihawk I agree unless, ha! Self goes zone. I’d never do it. I’d take quick over big anytime

  • @drgnslayr I meant what bigs we are playing against. We could really go fast if we wanted to.

  • From a lineup perspective there are a couple of things we really can’t do, and a few others that we would like to do.

    1. Can’t play Udoka, Landen and Coleby at the same time. It’s just spacing death to put two of those guys on the floor at the same time. You basically have to have Svi, Bragg or Jackson at the 4 to make things work offensively.

    2. You don’t really want Graham and Mason sitting at the same time. So that means you need to find 5 minutes of rest for each of them each half. Ideally, that means one of them comes out at the under 12 TV timeout, and then comes back in for the other after the under 8 timeout in the first half, then in the second half, one comes out at the under 16, then replaces the other after the under 12.

    3. You want to manage Bragg’s exposure to bruising guys. With Lucas, Udoka and Coleby around, there’s really no reason Bragg should be banging against some 6-10, 280 big man. The fact that there’s three of them means Bragg should never be matched up with a guy he’s giving up 30-40 pounds to.

    4. You want to avoid playing anyone more than 33 minutes on a regular basis. In blowouts, you really want to have the ability to get Graham and Mason out with 5+ minutes left - no need to put the extra wear on those guys. In close games, you will have to ride them for their ball handling, but if you’re up 15-18, you can monitor their minutes so they maybe only play 8-10 minutes each in the second half of a double digit game. That means playing Vick 20-25 minutes when games start getting a bit of cushion.

    5. You want your best lineup (currently Mason-Graham-Svi-Jackson-Bragg) to play at least 5 minutes together in each game. That lineup is a great run starting lineup because they can hit you with that 14-2 run that takes a close game and turns it into a double digit matchup.

  • I might add for special defensive schemes, we might play box and 1 or triangle and 2 w/Vick. At least wear em down awhile.

  • @justanotherfan said:

    You want your best lineup (currently Mason-Graham-Svi-Jackson-Bragg) to play at least 5 minutes together in each game. That lineup is a great run starting lineup because they can hit you with that 14-2 run that takes a close game and turns it into a double digit matchup.

    Our team is going to go on offensive blowout mode ALOT this year. We’re going to dominate teams on both ends of the court. It’ll be like a jail break.

  • If I’m not mistaken, didn’t Duke win the championship playing four guards around Okafor?

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