Done Watching KU Bball!!
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@Statmachine said:
After this summer of waiting for the season to start it almost feels over for me! Same early exit team we had last year! BUMMER
We are not Cub’s fans, we don’t see the first pitch of the game of the season and hold up a sign that reads, “There’s always next year”
We are KU, the chicken little has not ran by screaming the “sky is falling” others have, but cmon man it is one game. Coach will and teach from this, the players will learn from this.
@HawksWin If you are done after two games, and are jumping off the wagon, don’t ever forget that sometimes the journey is the destination. Hold on tight and take the downs with the ups and take it all in. You never know what will happen next, that’s why they play the games on the floor and not on paper.
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@JRyman but will Coach learn from this?
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@JRyman I agree with what @Bwag said. What has Self carried over from Korea into the season so far? Right now, it appears not a thing. KU played its best when Hunter started alongside Perry, but now can’t find any playing time. Self said Korea was Mickelson’s coming out party, so much for that.
Bill Self is in his 13th year at KU and hasn’t changed significantly in that time and his stubborness to adapt what worked in Korea to this team is going to lead KU to another 10 loss season and give KU somewhere around 30 losses over the past 3 seasons. This isn’t an improved team from last year because Bill Self hasn’t improved as a coach and seems to have completely disregarded what worked in Korea of letting his players play in favor of his rigid system that he’s going to run come hell or high water and that doesn’t work against good team.
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@JRyman Thanks for that injection of positive outlook. I’ll be sure to have nitroglycerin next to me
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@Bwag said:
@JRyman but will Coach learn from this? I don’t know if he will. But he will teach from it. Hopefully he can learn from it and grow.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Sounds like you’re right but I’m hoping not…
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I don’t like it that we lost a game, especially when it was a game we had in the bag only to pee away.
None-the-less I am always amazed at the whiners and haters who choose to bash our team after a loss.
The KU Jayhawk men’s basketball team is the most consistently successful team in college basketball during the past quarter century…winning percentage, consecutive NCAA tournament berths, conference titles, consistently ranked in the top 20…
We are the epitome of consistent success that 99% of NCAA DI basketball programs would sell (and some have) their soul to achieve.
If you choose to compare actual results to your expectations…you will be almost always be disappointed. Only one top 20 team wins their last game of the year. Only one team in the last 40 years +/-has gone undefeated. Many teams advance to final fours but fall prey to the boom and bust cycle that is the norm.
like his approach or not Bill Self will be in the Hall of Fame.
I wish he was more embracing of change and would cater to the skill set of his roster too…but I have to admit that admire him for sticking to his beliefs and principles too. Takes a pretty confident man not to trash what he believes in and cater to the OAD movement…people who are only coming to your program to use it for their benefit and gain so they can leave a year later.
What is the old country song lyric? If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything…,
If the pasture always looks greener, by all means feel free to jump the fence…
Maybe your new team will win a title or two more than KU over the next 20 years…but unless your new team is Duke Kentucky Michigan State or North Carolina you likely won’t enter every season for the next 10 years with a legitimate reason to expect an elite 8 or better finish…and even if one of those elites are your new team, be sure to savor the taste of that greener grass when Robert Morris knocks you out of the NIT. Or how Izzo gets you to 7 Final Fours but can’t win the big one any more often than Self. Or when OAD after OAD leaves your program without winning you any more titles than KU had since 2008.
Just my perspective …embrace the passion. Expect the best. but Love it or leave it.
Just quit calling yourself a KU fan if you are going b!tch, whine and threaten to give up after every loss or after early exit from the big dance.
But after you have spent some time in that greener pasture be sure to have the maturity to admit that had your annual expectations been realistic and had you been a true fan who is grateful for what you had (instead of expecting more) that maybe the good ol’ Crimson and Blue wasn’t that bad after all.o
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@HawksWin Were you a fan in 1988 (11 regular season losses)? Were you a fan in the last two minutes (losing by 9) of the 2008 season? Or were you done watching KU basketball then too?
I guarantee you watching KU basketball is still better than watching Tom and Jerry or even Donald and Ben.
See you next game!
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It seems like everyone forgets Self just had Wiggins and Embiid, a top recruit will come to Kansas again…
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And that we never sign anyone early…except Bragg
Or when the say i’d be happy if we made the Elite 8 or Final Four more often…but then get angry and stay that way for years when we lose in the finals to Syracuse…to Arizona, to VCU…
News flash…the better team doesn’t always win every game …and if winning 82% of your games over the past 12 seasons isn’t good enough, winning 90% of them won’t be either.
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“News flash…the better team doesn’t always win every game …and if winning 82% of your games over the past 12 seasons isn’t good enough, winning 90% of them won’t be either.”
Brilliant statement! Really!
But viewing sports from the fan perspective is totally not based on any form of reality. Your statement makes sense… too much sense. The desire to win becomes an insatiable desire. You just can’t win enough, regardless of your percentage! And if we had a perfect season, it would quickly be diminished by the following season where we lost 1 game. That 1 game loss would suddenly mean more than anything else, including the NC game from the prior year where we went home with the gold!
Look at Alabama football fans. They have to be the most-arrogant bunch of jerks on the planet. They have been spoiled because they are the football version of Kentucky in basketball; they literally take whatever recruits they want. It is a team full of elite players and no one should come close to beating them.
It really isn’t healthy for a team to win and dominate too much. Fans get spoiled… they get arrogant… they get unrealistic… and in the end, their spoils spoil the entire game. Eventually, these spoiled fans are miserable. You know the saying… “too much of a good thing…”
Even drinking water can kill you if you go overboard.
I like where we are (on winning percentage) but just wish we could win a NC about once in every 5-7 years. To me, that is dominance. And there is enough losing in there to keep people realistic.
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I get the emotions expressed on both sides.
On one hand, yes, KU is successful, and will have another good or even very good season. 25 wins and another conference title are probably well within reach. For most schools in the country, that would be cause for celebration.
But on the other hand, this is Kansas. While conference titles and 25 win seasons are nice, the real challenge is March, and the way KU played on Tuesday makes another March flameout not only possible, but likely. There was nothing displayed on Tuesday to make you feel like a Final Four or even an Elite Eight run is in the cards.
KU has very good talent this year, but not elite talent. That would be enough for a deep run if Self were willing to utilize that in a certain way, but insisting on playing Traylor and Lucas over Bragg and Mickelson puts a definite cap on how far this team goes because Traylor and Lucas have limitations that will show up against the teams that will still be around deep in the tournament, and can be exploited in the right matchups by smart coaches.
This is where Self gets burned. He is excellent in preparation, excellent in motivation, a top ten recruiter, etc. But Self is not a matchup coach. He does not punish you for guarding a good player with a lesser player. I am still fuming that he didn’t tell Perry to hang 25-10 on his old HS teammate vs. Wichita State. There is no way a 6-4 guy should be able to do anything with Perry Ellis. Perry eats those guys for lunch. He was 4-9 against WSU. He tallied 17, but only because he was exceptional from the line. He should have had 25. Instead, he and Self let Wessel play him to basically a draw (12 points, 9 boards for Wessel on 4-6 shooting vs. 17 points, 8 boards for Perry). That matchup, which should have been a decided win for KU, cost the Hawks the game. That should have been 25-10 from Perry on 8-11 shooting, with Wessel only playing 15-20 minutes because he couldn’t guard anyone and had to be benched.
But that’s the problem. Self doesn’t exploit matchups. So every year in a big game, someone disappears. Selden had 0 on 0-5 shooting against WSU. Wiggins had 4 points on 1-6 shooting against Stanford. Tyshawn Taylor had 2 points on 0-6 shooting against Northern Iowa. How are our top notch perimeter guys disappearing with regularity against inferior opponents in March. That’s a problem, and it has not been corrected in the last five years.
This is where we are heading. 25 wins. Conference title. Losing against (insert fairly average bubble team here) in the Round of 32. Selden or Greene or Svi having <4 points and a poor shooting night in defeat. Somebody copy this down so that we don’t have to re-type it come March.
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“But that’s the problem. Self doesn’t exploit matchups.”
I agree with that. I really thought he would pick up a lot of that style of coaching from the Mayor. The Mayor was able to take a bunch of juco players and play right with Kansas. Isn’t that enough proof?
“How are our top notch perimeter guys disappearing with regularity against inferior opponents in March.”
Spot on! Heck… we don’t even have to wait until March to see that… this MSU was a big game. It was nationally telecasted and we had players choke.
I think this happens for a few reasons.
First… our guys are not prepared for big games. We always come out stiff, and often we never leave a stiff form of play.
Second… we don’t make enough in-game adjustments. So our star scorer is being guarded tighter… we have to adjust and exploit what the defense gives us.
Third… part of that responsibility has to fall back on the players for not using basketball IQ to spot opportunities. Maybe they aren’t being taught what to look for? Or is it that they suddenly have amnesia when we go into a big game?
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KU is at a status where they are judged almost exclusively by what happens in March and April, it January and February. KU is 4th in Final Four appearances, but only a 3-6 mark in the championship game.
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@drgnslayr said:
First… our guys are not prepared for big games. We always come out stiff, and often we never leave a stiff form of play.
Second… we don’t make enough in-game adjustments. So our star scorer is being guarded tighter… we have to adjust and exploit what the defense gives us.
Third… part of that responsibility has to fall back on the players for not using basketball IQ to spot opportunities. Maybe they aren’t being taught what to look for? Or is it that they suddenly have amnesia when we go into a big game?
“Don’t practice till you get it right. Practice until you don’t get it wrong.” Unknown
With the seasoned players on this team shouldn’t the game just come naturally to them? The plays, the system, the coaching???
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Maybe the game has come a bit TOO natural for these guys. Natural in the sense of putting them in a comfort zone they can’t escape!
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Good comments.
I didn’t think we looked great, maybe not even good. But we still controlled the game for 35 minutes +/-. Against a team that will likely be a top 10 team for most of the season. And yes they were missing players. But Valentine played out of his mind too.
Hard to base whether we will or won’t make arun on a one game sample size. MSU wouldn’t have been on many people’s final four list after last season’s loss to KU. But they did it.
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@betterfireE I have stated this in other posts. WHY is Frank Mason tired if that’s the case, then WHY? if Frank Mason is tired 2 games into the season, and no he has had all kinds of time to rest between each exhibition gam and the regular season and months of rest from the WUG’S sooo, if he is tired, that tells me 1 thing poor conditioning, and if that’s the case who’s fault is that? It can be only his, it’s up to him to get himself in condition I don’t buy that at all if he is he better get himself ready like QUICK
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Exactly.
And that tournament run is based as much on uncontrollable variables as it is about talent.
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Great comments. And thank you for validating some of my thoughts.
You got my point.
I am all for winning, being passionate, cussing when we don’t play well, dissecting the coulda/woulda/shoulda, arguing strategy, wondering why we didn’t do this or that…
But I am also for kissing her goodnite no matter how mad you are , hugging her when you wake up tomorrow, knowing she finds a way to get it right 82% of the time even if she isn’t at her best, recognizing that year in and year out she is one of the best out there and knowing that it would be nearly impossible to replace her.
Professing one as a KU fan, but proclaiming a divorce in a public forum because she isn’t the best every single time just blows my mind.
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Izzo is a coach that will get the max out of his players come March. His record says that he always does that.
Self’s record is the opposite. Self gets the most out of his team in January and February. That’s why he wins conference titles all the time. He gets the most out of his team so they don’t lose random games to weak opponents on a non-descript Tuesday in February. Self generally doesn’t drop those games.
But come March, he doesn’t maximize his opportunity because he tries to make sure his team is ready to beat Texas Tech in February, even if that is at the expense of developing a guy that can help beat Kentucky in March. He’s doing it now with this team. He’s playing Lucas and Traylor, guys that can be steady enough to beat the weaker teams in the Big 12, but they can’t help you beat a tournament team because they just aren’t good enough. KU may be better off in January to use the more experienced guys, but come March, they need Bragg and Mickelson because they need the raw talent upgrade.
Talent is the variable that helps you get through the bad bounces. Talent is what bailed Kentucky out against Notre Dame last year. A lesser team gets beat in that game, but UK’s talent advantage won the day. Same for Duke against Wisconsin. Wisconsin is national champ, except that even with Okafor not playing great, Allen and Jones were both very good in that game. Coach K was able to put the game in the hands of a top 30 freshman and his top notch PG, and that beat Wisconsin.
There are lots of uncontrollable things in each game. But if you’re good enough, you can overcome that stuff. If you aren’t, you won’t.
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@SoftballDad2011 Well guess what I bitch, I cry, I get P’O but I’m still am a KU fan, always have been, and always will be, been one for 55 plus years, seen many many good times, many many bad times, stuck around through both. That’s the difference between a TRUE fan and a bandwagon fan, so having been through what I have with the team I have the right to bitch whine I get PO, but in the end I’m still here. To those that thunk we aren’t doing anything right how the Coach stinks and bull headed, try living through our REAL down years going through some of Coach Owens tenure, the guy could recruit- - - he just couldn’t coach, with the talent Coach Owens had back in his tenure we should of done ALOT better. So to a certain degree I have to agree if you want to bail out, run- - - - - then run- - - they can always use fans down the innerstate in Cow city Manhattan. I feel like the majority of people here maybe no upset on the fact we lost the game- - - - -buts it more on HOW we lost the game, Coach can go through this stuff over and over and over and drill and drill and drill in practice, but the bottom line is if they don’t go out and execute it in game time conditions then we are screwed, getting tired of seeing these crazy, out of control drives with no where to go, get yourself in so deep and can do nothing. Is it frustrating? hell ya it is, is it getting old? hell ya it is, Am I hearing hints from people they think it’s time for Coach Self to go- - hell ya I am Is there anyone here that can do better then coach Self- - Hell no there is not If you think you can well my suggestion is take a drive down to the Athletic Dept and tell them you want to apply for the head coaching position of the Basketball team I’m SURE they would love that, at the End of the day, frustration, whining getting PO I’m still bleeding crimson and blue and head up we will get better
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I understand completely.
But my point is that would the people complaining be content with Izzo’s 7 final fours…or would they still be complaining because we only won a single title?
Based on what we see and read here, there would still be people saying I’d trade all seven of those final fours for one more title.
And others would be saying if we are that frickin good in March why in the heck can’t we win a conference title more than once every ------- years.
Sure it could be better. But at KU the likelihood of it getting worse is just as possible. And unfortunately it might take Self going to the NBA for some to figure that out.
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@jayballer54 well said.
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KU fans will always push for more, just like Duke fans, UNC fans and Kentucky fans.
That’s the nature of the elites.
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@justanotherfan Is this what you were getting at??
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@Second-Prize Okay, while I’m on a “b1tching mode”, let me ask where did getting Wigg & Emb get us? One of you said Self doesn’t maximize - don’t have stats to negate that statement. Agree his talent pool is & has been less than UK, Duke, NC, and the kids we get I like much better, they’re mostly good kids. That said how is it that Izzo beats Self’s better talent? Mayor got the best of Self with supposedly less talent. I get Self is a hall of famer, but I’m personally tired of watching reigning princes at B12 shows only to be wilted & die on big stages. Any coach can win with the best talent, can Self win with less talent against the best talent? I’d love to see that again - 2008. Also, I will gladly trade B12 wins for 2 or even 1 NC in the last 4-7 years. It’s like eating dirt when a conference champ gets beaten in early March. What’s more, B12 has been the raving conference all year & we go out with the tail tucked between our legs on big stages. Getting tired of that mediocrity. Lately, it’s to the point where I know the outcome of a game before it ends! Sorry.
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@justanotherfan nice to read civil arguments! Will you give Perry a lil slack for getting the elbow up his nose, bad enough he had to go to locker room? I wouldn’t give anyone’s else one that game.
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@SoftballDad2011 Michigan St. typically gets to the Final Four by overachieving so if KU had a history of overachieving, I would be happy with that. KU is known as a significant underachiever though and that’s what gets under people’s skin the most.
Why was 1997, 2010, and 2011 so painful? It was because KU significantly underachieved in those years. KU was by far the best team in the country all 3 of those seasons and none them even reached the Final Four. Why is 2012 remembered so fondly? Because KU significantly overachieved that year. That was by far the least talented KU team of the past 25 years and they were a few missed lay ups away from winning a national title.
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I agree with you a lot of your points.
And I know I am only preaching to one or two people in the choir box.
It’s all about expectations.
And if we don’t meet them, it’s certainly ok to be upset or to place blame.
But for a fool to renounce his support for KU because we lost a game is assanine, let alone the second game of the year to a quality opponent.
Out of curiosity, let me ask this.
If we had lost to Purdue or NC State…both games we probably should have won but were lucky to have done so…would that 2012 team have been remembered as over achievers or chokers?
What if Curry takes the final shot and Davidson advances instead of us… Still a great season?
Or Mario misses the three and Calipari beat us? Are we content to losing to the better team like you were in 2012?
All about expectations and perceptions. And again, nothing wrong with being disappointed …but if you are a real KU fan, then still support them tomorrow.
We just need to understand and accept that almost every season is going to end in disappointment for our team…and for the fans of 315+/- other DI BBall teams too.
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, my opinion is that after two games to have such a strong opinion on a team is a vast overreaction
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That’s certainly a valid response. I just think generally fans are upset that this loss looks awfully similar to how our seasons have ended in March. I mean what if all this talk is true again at the end of year? Its a frustrated fan-base that knows this team is better than the team it lost too.
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Let’s all try and keep in mind that we beat MSU in an ugly game last year. MSU then went on to make a run to the Final 4 while we flamed out in the 2nd round. I am certainly not saying we are looking like a Final 4 squad but there is 90% of the season left to play and all that we care about as KU fans is how the season ends. If we beat MSU by 15 and then lose to a Mid Major in the Sweet 16 it is a flop of a season. If we lose to MSU after a meltdown in the 2nd half like we did but go on a deep run and a Final 4 then we tend to forget about the early season setback.
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I agree, it was very frustrating to lose to what most believed an inferior opponent. I also agree it looks eerily similar to past season. I however, mainly for my sanity, try to be an optimist about an early season loss.
Don’t get me wrong, after the loss and the following day, the sky was falling. I was overreactive. But after a few days, I believe optimism is healthier for my soul. And pessimism for some keeps expectations realistic and deters too much hope as to not be disappointed as every season we don’t win the NC ends.
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A lot of great points on this thread ! As has been much debated on this site over the years, the NCAA tournament is so great precisely because it still is ultimately a crapshoot. Obviously the odds of a 14-15-16 seed winning it all are astronomically small, but great teams, historic teams, still lose in the tournament. It just is what it is. Imagine being a kentucky fan last year… Their WHOLE season was simply framed as “win it all or the season is a FAILURE” (thank god for wisconsin). But for me, i never have had huge expectations not matter how amazing the KU team we bring into it, so it is not a crushing letdown like it is apparently for many on this site.
Everybody here has a slightly (or majorly) different take on what it means to be a fan of KU. I wonder if people on this site have truly examined the particular type and nature of why they are a fan? Its at the core of why sites like this and many others exist. I have always found that for me, it is like a relationship to someone or something you care about. It is not rational at its most elemental level. Relationships are messy and irrational. You dont really pick teams to root for and care about, in essence they pick you. Life has a funny way of paring you up with the people or things you end up emotionally connected to. Relationships can be exhilarating, unexpected, exciting, rewarding, hard to understand sometimes, and they can be frustrating, and oh yes they can be PAINFUL. For many posters here, it apparently helps them to make sense of things to analyse to a high degree all the factors that go into the players, the coach, the strategy. The attempt to rationalize something that you care about on an emotional level. Some KU games now i tape and watch later, because i get too stressed and worked up watching them live - my blood pressure skyrockets ! I dont have control over this honestly. For some reason, although i essentially do like and root for all the KU players, some players i just naturally like more. Malcolm Gladwell, in his book “Blink” illustrated how our preceptions work unconsiously and we get quick impressions about people and things instinctively. He calls it “thin-slicing”. Sometimes this can be an astonishingly accurate tool as shown by studies and data compiled afterward, and sometimes it can be really ultimately wrong. For example, i cant explain and rationalize why certain past KU players were my favorites (Sherron, Kevin Young, travis, Russell robinson- i actively disliked selby from the get-go and could’nt explain why), and why Jamari is my current favorite jayhawk, but he is, and no amount of posters statistically dissecting why jamari is at best a very limited role player and a poor choice for Self to Play will change that. So i watch the games, try and understand more about the intricacies of the game and our players and coach but honestly, although i may be dissapointed, pissed off, or perplexed at times by the team, i have no real control over the level of my caring about the team. It’s alreadly hardwired in.
