Matt Tait article on KU ball
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@HighEliteMajor said
When I talk about foundation in this forum, I’m sure some have barely played the game. I’m sure some have not coached at any level. I’m sure that some just watch basketball casually. I’m sure some may only watch Kansas basketball. I’m sure there are some that watch KU and other college games.
Your right you have no idea what my back ground in the game of basketball is. Nor do I know yours. So how are you able to question mine?
Some have tried to understand and commiserate with @JRyman. The fact is, the posts by @JRyman on this supposed “topic” is baloney. It comes from someone who can’t find a way to make numbers works for him, or to challenge numbers that he disputes. He doesn’t spend the time to analyze the stats, he doesn’t take the time to rematch games, he clearly doesn’t take notes on each game, he clearly doesn’t look for trends or patterns, and he clearly doesn’t care to analyze the game.
How does one actually “rematch” a game? Do you play it out on Xbox? Or did you mean “rewatch”? I’m sure you know what you meant. But no I don’t take notes on the game with my legal pad and Mark time stamps. I did that a player. Now I enjoy the game. Yes I can watch the game and learn from it without having to take notes, hit rewind or over analyze the game. I do however analyze the game I. Real time. I can tell you after s game things that didn’t work and do on. Then I move on to the next game. But for you to even think you know me and how I do things is ridiculous. Yes ridiculous. You do t know me from Adam and for that I am thankful.
The other thing is evidence. How are folks convicted of murder and other crimes? Many times it is solely circumstantial evidence. Yet they are found guilty by a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt. The highest standard of proof in the legal system.
Now we are dropping the legal system to back up opinions? That’s a reach. Good one though. .
But @JRyman’s whining comes from someone who is uncomfortable and insecure in this sort of environment where debate and discussion, and opinions, do not go unchallenged.
Here we go again with personal attacks. First I need to take my meds or I’m not feeling like myself.
Now I’m whining? That’s so big of you. I thought you could articulate your argument better than personal attacks.
But like you say what do I know I don’t put the time in or the care enough to know.
So keep up showing your true colors when you are called to task by attacking a person you do t know. Many have said they come here to this site over others because of posters like you. And yet here you are the king of the board (self appointed by the way) a tracking people wen they do t bow down to your baloney. Attaching people that have opened up about themselves and using it against them.
You are truly not the mature adult you have come off as or as you want to be.
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@ParisHawk said:
The less it’s about what we feel and more about why we feel that way
That is a very insightful way of putting it. Thanks.
I think that is something I can learn from–both as a technique for posting my own takes, and for redirecting others onto substance that triggers their feelings.
Rock Chalk!
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@JRyman and @HighEliteMajor The back and forth y’all are doing right now is why this site was created. There was/is way too much of this crap that goes on at KUSports and why many of us no longer post on a consistent basis over there.
@HighEliteMajor Nobody is going to dispute that you do have a solid knowledge base, but you do have a tendency to present it in a holier than thou manner and act offended when others use a different way of evaluating a player than you do. Just like you tells others there’s different ways to succeed on the court when you question Self, there’s other ways to measure a players impact than advanced numbers, but you consistently shoot down their opinions because they don’t use the same method you use of player evaluation.
I do think it’s interesting that you would use how a murder trial works as an example. You bring up that circumstantial evidence is how a conviction is reached because there’s not always empirical data to prove a person murdered another person. Yet you choose to challenge those and try to discredit those who use circumstantial evidence to form an opinion on Traylor because they don’t have the time to dig into the stats beyond the box score.
I don’t know which site you use to get your advanced numbers from, but there is one advanced number I would be curious about and that is KU’s +/- with Jamari on the court. I don’t know if any site tracks that stat at the college level, but that is a great way of measuring how a player who’s own numbers may not statistically impact positively, but being on the floor just makes the team better. I know Traylor’s personal stats aren’t great, but when he plays with high energy, the circumstantial evidence suggests that KU is a better team and that’s something a +/- stat would indicate.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Excellent and tactful post. Thanks!
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@JRyman said:
I am glad you reiterated your questions, so that I have another chance to answer them yes or no. and then go beyond the yes or no format to what I think is the heart of the matter.
Is anyone on this sight have a higher basketball IQ than Bill Self does? Yes or no? EMPHATICALLY NO. BUT EVERY BRILLIANT PERSON I HAVE EVER WORKED WITH HAS MADE MISTAKES AND MISJUDGMENTS THAT LESSERS CAUGHT AND BY CALLING ATTENTION TO THEM HELPING SUCH BRILLIANT PERSONS REDIRECT ONTO THE ERRORS. WE CLEARLY CATCH SELF IN MISTAKES AND MISJUDGMENTS, BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY OF US, WE THE ADVANTAGE OF HINDSIGHT, AND EVEN IN REAL TIME FORA LIKE JESSE NEWELL’S LIVE BLOG WE HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF OBJECTIVITY. ANY PERSON ENGAGED IN ANY ACTIVITY AT A HIGH LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN ADVANTAGES TO BEING IN THE MOMENT IN THE THICK OF THINGS, AND CERTAIN OTHER ADVANTAGES TO BEING ABOVE THE FRAY AND BEING ABLE TO LOOK AT THINGS WITHOUT THE PRESSURE OF ACTION IN THE MOMENT. ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT BEING A FAN OF BILL SELF IS THAT HE HAS SUCH GREAT CONFIDENCE IN HIS ABILITIES AND SUCH CLARITY OF PURPOSE THAT HE IS WILLING TO TALK AFTER THE FACT ABOUT SITUATIONS (SOMETIMES AFTER THE GAME, SOME TIMES DAYS AFTER THE GAME, SOMETIMES WEEKS, SOMETIMES MONTHS, AND SOMETIMES THE FOLLOWING SEASON, ABOUT WHAT THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE BETTER. I REALLY THINK SELF IS MORE PRONE TO REVEAL THESE KINDS OF REVISIONS IN HIS THINKING THAN MANY OTHER COACHES AND IT IS THE SIGN OF A BRILLIANT AND SUPREMELY CONFIDENT MIND BENT ON GETTING BETTER. THERE ARE MISTAKES HE WON’T ADMIT, BECAUSE ADMITTING THEM WON’T MAKE HIM, OR HIS TEAM BETTER AT THE TIME, IN HIS ESTIMATION, OR IT COULD JEOPARDIZE HIS AUTHORITY, OR BECAUSE HE JUST DOESN’T HAVE A FIX FOR IT YET. BUT HE CAN BE REMARKABLY CANDID AND PROFOUND IN HIS REMARKS AT TIMES AND OFTEN THESE REMARKS TAKE DAYS, OR WEEKS, OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE HERE TO RECOGNIZE THEIR SIGNIFICANCE. FRANKLY, SELF IS SO GOOD THAT I NEVER TRY TO CATCH HIS MISTAKES. I DEVOTE MYSELF TO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT AND THEN UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS DOING. I HAVE LEARNED MORE BASKETBALL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT AND UNDERSTAND WHAT BILL SELF DOES THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER WAY IN ALL MY YEARS OF WATCHING THE GAME. HE IS COACHING AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL, EVEN RELATIVE TO MOST OTHER D1 COACHES. FANS THAT TRY TO PLAY GOTCHA WITH BILL SELF ARE REALLY MISSING THE EDUCATION OF A LIFE TIME. FIRST OF ALL, HE DOESN’T MAKE MANY MISTAKES. SECOND, IF YOU FOCUS ON HIS MISTAKES YOU ARE GOING TO MISS ALL THESE OPPORTUNITIES TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL HE IS REALLY UP TO MOST OF THE TIME. I FIND HIS MISTAKE ONLY INCIDENTALLY TO LOOKING AT ALL THE GOOD STUFF HE IS DOING AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW HE DOES IT AND WHAT THE RATIONALE IS, IF ANY DRIVING HIS CHOICES.
Does anyone know this roster of players better than Bill Self does? Yes or no? EMPHATICALLY NO. BUT WE ARE ALL PRISONERS OF OUR EXPERIENCE AND OUR ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT HOW TO PLAY THE GAME, WHEN VIEWING OPTIONS OF OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE SCHEMES, OPTIONS OF STRATEGY AND TACTICS, AND OPTIONS OF ABILITIES. I NEVER FIND THAT BILL SELF MISJUDGES THE ABILITY (OR LACK THEREOF) OF A PLAYER TO PERFORM A NEEDED ROLE IN HIS BRAND OF BASKETBALL, ONCE HE HAS THEM ON THE TEAM. HE GUESSES WRONG ON RECRUITING VERY OCCASIONALLY, BUT THEN HOW COULD ONE NOT. BUT SELF IS VERY PURPOSEFUL AND SENSIBLE AND FOR THE MOST PART DOES NOT TALK MUCH ABOUT WHAT HIS PLAYERS MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO FOR ANOTHER TEAM, OR ANOTHER COACH, OR ANOTHER SYSTEM. HIS FOCUS IS WINNING HERE AND NOW WITH THE PLAYERS ON THIS ROSTER THIS SEASON UNDER THE SCHEME AND STRATEGY HE HAS SELECTED. IN CONTRAST, OFTEN, WHEN MANY HERE EXPLORE A PLAYER’S ABILITIES AND PERFORMANCE, THEY ARE VIEWING THE PLAYER NOT THROUGH SELF’S LENS, BUT THROUGH THE LENS OF OTHER APPROACHES TO SCHEME AND STRATEGY. BOARD RATS OFTEN DON’T SAY SO, BUT WHAT THEY ARE REALLY OFTEN WRITING IS: THIS PLAYER COULD DO SO MUCH MORE THAN HE IS BEING ALLOWED TO DO…IF SELF ADOPTED A DIFFERENT SCHEME AND STRATEGY. THAT PLAYER WOULD DEVELOP MUCH FASTER… IF SELF ADOPTED A DIFFERENT SCHEME AND STRATEGY THAT MADE BETTER USE OF THAT PLAYER’S TALENTS AND SKILLS. @HighEliteMajor AND I CLEARLY AGREE ON A LOT OF ISSUES ABOUT BASKETBALL, BUT HE FREQUENTLY ANALYZES PLAYERS IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH MORE SELF COULD GET OUT OF THEM ANOTHER WAY; I.E., UNDER ANOTHER SCHEME AND STRATEGY. @HighEliteMajor DOESN’T DISPUTE THAT SELF HAS A SOLID GRASP OF WHAT WORKS. HE ARGUES THAT SELF STICKS TOO CLOSELY WITH HIS SCHEME AND STRATEGY TO OFTEN WHEN THE TALENTS OF HIS PLAYERS SUGGEST GOING TO ANOTHER SCHEME AND STRATEGY. I THINK IT IS A VALID ARGUMENT AND ONE THAT REVEALS A LOT TO BOARD RATS ABOUT WHAT ELSE MIGHT BE FEASIBLE. AT THE SAME TIME, I OFTEN DISAGREE WITH @HighEliteMajor THAT DIVERGING FROM SELF’S SELECTED COURSE OF ACTION WOULD YIELD SOMETHING NET BETTER. I FIND THAT WHEN I DRILL DOWN INTO WHAT SELF IS DOING, ESPECIALLY AT TIMES THAT IT SEEMS MOST COUNTER INTUITIVE, THAT I COME TO AGREE WITH SELF’S CHOSEN COURSE OF ACTION. I BELIEVED HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION WHEN HE OPTED FOR BAD BALL ONCE I UNDERSTOOD IT. @HighEliteMajor DECIDED IT WAS A TERRIBLE CHOICE. BUT HERE’S THE THING: I AM HERE TO LEARN AND I LEARNED A GREAT DEAL NOT ONLY FROM DRILLING DOWN INTO SELF’S BAD BALL, BUT ALSO A TON FROM @HighEliteMajor’s SOUNDLY ARGUED ANALYSIS THROUGH A DIFFERENT LENS. I DECIDED THAT @HighEliteMajor FOUND AN ALTERNATIVE PATH THAT MIGHT HAVE WORKED AND SO MIGHT BE WORTH RETAINING IT FOR FUTURE CIRCUMSTANCES, EVEN THOUGH I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT SELF’S ANGLE WAS NOT ONLY BRILLIANT , BUT BETTER. IF @HighEliteMajor HAD NOT CHALLENGED BILL SELF’S DECISION MAKING AS RIGOROUSLY AS HE DID, I WOULD NEVER HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT BILL SELF WAS DOING IN THE GRATIFYING DEPTH (AT LEAST TO ME) THAT I REACHED. THIS IS THE GREAT SYNERGY ENABLED BY SPIRITED PUBLIC DISCOURSE. IT GOES A LARGE STEP BEYOND WHAT EVEN COACH SELF–THE GREAT BASKETBALL GENIUS THAT HE IS–CAN REVEAL AND TEACH BY EXAMPLE.
Does anyone know what players need to be recruited and signed for this KU team better than coach Self does? Yes or no? EMPHATICALLY NOT. BUT ONLY THROUGH THE LENS THAT COACH SELF VIEWS THE GAME. THROUGH OTHER LENS, EITHER THOSE OF KNOWLEDGEABLE BOARD RATS, OR THOSE BELONGING TO OTHER GREAT COACHING MINDS OF THE GAME TODAY THAT BOARD RATS HERE CAN ACCESS OVER THE NET THE SAME WAY THEY ACCESS COACH SELF (I.,E., REMOTELY) SOMEONE ELSE MAY WELL COME UP WITH A VALID ALTERNATIVE ANGLE ON RECRUITS THAT WILL IN THE PROCESS ILLUMINATE EVEN MORE WHY COACH SELF IS PURSUING WHO HE IS PURSUING.
If anyone can answer yes to any of those questions please step out of your shadows and reveal what great coach you are. Prove it to the masses you are as great as you say you are? What’s you wing percentage? Where? What level?
TO ME TO DEMONSTRATE THAT NO FAN IS AS GOOD AT COACHING, AND THE ASPECTS OF COACHING, AS A COACH SELF LIKE SELF THAT HAS SPENT A CAREER LEARNING TO COACH AND WHO IS PAID $3-5-10MILLION PER YEAR FROM VARIED SOURCES IS KIND OF A TAUTOLOGY; I.E., A SELF-REINFORCING PRETENSE OF SIGNIFICANT TRUTH THAT IS QUITE BESIDE THE POINT OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE ABOUT THE TOPIC OF KU BASKETBALL. I HAVE NEVER READ A SINGLE BOARD RAT ON KUBUCKETS CLAIM TO BE SMARTER, BETTER, OR TO HAVE A HIGHER BASKETBALL IQ, OR TO BE A BETTER RECRUITER, OR A BETTER JUDGE OF TALENT, OR BETTER BENCH COACH, THAN COACH SELF…EVER. SO THE REAL QUESTION IS THIS: WHY DO YOU POSE SUCH A STRAW QUESTION? WHAT IS IT YOU ARE REALLY TRYING TO ASSERT IN THE FORM OF A STRAW ARGUMENT/QUESTION THAT HINGES ON A PREMISE THAT DOES NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE EXIST?
SO: HAVING TRIED TO RESPECTFULLY AND GENUINELY TRIED TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ONE BY ONE, I WILL NOW ASK YOU: WHY DO YOU POSE THIS STRAW QUESTION?
WHO EXACTLY IS IN THE SHADOWS CLAIMING TO BE SMARTER, ETC., THAT COACH BILL SELF?
NOT ME.
I CALL SELF THE GENIUS.
AND I MEAN IT.
AND I DON’T CALL MYSELF ONE, NOR DO I VIEW MYSELF AS ONE.
I don’t think so. I believe he is pretty much in awe of WHAT SELF has accomplished AT KU, and HE APPEARS TO respect the soundness of the Self approach, despite his opinion that Self CAN GET TOO INFLEXIBLE IN ADHERENCE TO THE APPROACH.
@drgnslayr? NOT SLAYR. HE SEEMS TO THINK SELF IS AN AWESOME COACH THAT COULD GET BETTER BY STUDYING HOW THE NBA COACHES ENCOURAGE MORE FREE LANCING AND CREATIVITY.
@REHawk? WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE REST OF US, THE COACH PROBABLY KNOWS MORE BASKETBALL IN ONE OF HIS EYE LASHES THAN THE REST OF US COMBINED, BUT HE CONSTANTLY MARVELS AT WHAT THE EDMOND KID KEEPS PULLING OFF, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS THE USUAL SUCCINCT JUDGEMENTS COACHES THAT HAVE HAD TO MAKE A LIVING MAKING SUCH JUDGEMENTS ARE FAMOUS FOR.
I HAVE GONE DOWN THE LIST OF EVERY ALIAS THAT PUBLISHES FREQUENTLY HERE BEYOND THE SHORT LIST ABOVE, AT LEAST THAT I CAN RECALL.
I CAN’T THINK OF ANY FREQUENT POSTERS THAT ARGUE THEY KNOW MORE THAN SELF, OR HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE, WOULD BE BETTER D1 HEAD COACHES AT KU.
WHO ARE THESE POSTERS IN THE SHADOWS?
IF THEY EXIST, TELL US WHO THEY ARE?
I FOR ONE WILL WRITE A POST IMMEDIATELY AND POKE FUN AT THE IDEA THAT SUCH AN ALIAS KNOWS MORE AND WOULD BE A BETTER HEAD COACH THAN BILL SELF.
AND I WILL BE AMIABLE DOING IT.
SERIOUSLY, I DON’T RECALL READING ANY OF THOSE KINDS OF POSTS HERE, OR EVEN AT THE OLD SITE, EXCEPT FOR THOSE POSTED BY SITE DESTABILIZERS, OFTEN APPEARING TO BE LURKERS FROM FIZZOU, KSU, MEMPHIS AND UK. AND WE CAN’T BOTHER OURSELVES OVER THOSE TYPES.
P.S.: Here is an example of why public discourse is so helpful, even when it cannot necessarily answer a question in short order. @HighEliteMajor has grappled with with understanding Jamari Traylor’s performance about as much as any of us. Unlike me, HEM drilled to Traylor’s stats and went to some lengths to try to understand why Self kept playing him. I had opinions. Everyone else had opinions. Pro Journo Jesse Newell even weighed in with the jump ball stat that Landon Lucas and Jamari excelled at. But in the end, HEM pulled out the decisive stat–the anemic rebounds per minute stat, or something related to that. The guy does not get enough rebounds to sneeze at. After all the Ken Pom-ing and all the opining and all the human interest angles, and all the energy angles, and all the exploding out of position angles, and after he learned to put it on the deck, and got a rudimentary J, still the bottomline questions is: how can Self afford to play a big man that gets so few rebounds per minute played?
NO ONE CAN ANSWER THAT YET.
NOT ME, NOT YOU, NOT ANYONE.
NOT EVEN SELF CAN ANSWER THAT YET.
AT LEAST HE HAS CHOSEN NOT TO ADDRESS IT.
If one lets go of the frustration, this single statistic of @HighEliteMajor’s points us to something very, very, VERY important about Bill Self.
He is a coach that bets players with great physical ability can eventually learn to do a task that is consistent with that sort of physical ability, if Self can find a way to give that player enough time in the context of the team’s need for success.
Self is a coach that decides some players just can’t get it this season in time for the good of the team.
But the most important thing is this: Self is a coach that bets on great physical ability learning how…and then finding a way.
Its true that Self picked Traylor off a high school team shortly after Traylor had been homeless.
But it was really Traylor’s high school coach (or was it his AAU coach) that saved Traylor from the streets; that got him back under a roof. Not Bill Self.
Bill Self is the coach that saw a ton of athleticism, explosive jumping, lots of muscles, and said that if I can coach this guy up, I can have a player with just the kind of MUA I need in my big man rotation. I need a guy who can go small when the opponent goes small on my long big men, and yet have the kind of explosive physicality to dominate the little guys the opponents bring into the game to trip up my long bigs.
Self sees in Traylor a small big that could help Self play it any way they want.
Self apparently saw in Traylor a guy who COULD learn to put it on the deck, who COULD learn to shoot the J. And Self apparently believed sooner or later the athletic Traylor could “get it” regarding rebounding. He could “get the knack.”
We have three years behind us and one to go with Traylor.
Traylor can score a little, and a little scoring is apparently how Self defines the role.
But its the damned rebounding knack that Traylor can’t quite get.
And yet…
Self sees the athleticism in practice. He sees him explode out of position in games. He sees him play through injuries.
Self is betting on the longest shot there is in basketball; that a guy without the knack for rebounding can “get it.”
Its who Self is.
He is, as @drgnslayr likes to say, a riverboat gambler.
When he views a hand as a potential big winner, he will pretty much take any risk.
Self would rather bet on the long shot that Traylor will learn to “get it” on the glass, than bet on anyone else bigger, or longer, being able to cover the small bigs that are thrown at us.
He is waiting on Traylor the same way he waited on Tyshawn Taylor.
To the rest of us, having a small big to rotate doesn’t seem that big of a deal.
But to Mr. Play It Anyway They Want, well, a small big that can do it all is worth a whole lot!!!
Were it not for all the debate over this topic of Traylor’s virtues and vices, I don’t think I would have ever seen Bill Self’ mission as clearly. And the debate wasn’t enough. It came down to one rock hard stat–rebounds per minute–set down and reasserted by @HighEliteMajor it repeatedly until persons just couldn’t escape it anymore.
And when one is confronted with the truth, one has to fit it into the mosaic, if one wants to learn.
This is what Gandhi understood.
@HighEliteMajor got beyond giving us a choice.
He gave us a fact that won’t go away.
It forces us to explain it.
Not rationalize it.
But explain it.
I don’t know how this gamble of Self’s with Traylor will play out.
But if this team learns how to rebound small, it is a huge step closer to playing it any way they want and doing so.
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First, I value @JRyman’s takes on basketball and coaching here very much.
Second, I don’t recall any aliases that think they know more than Coach Self in any global sense.
Third, I’m glad you spoke up and addressed how much is learned here in our public discourse.
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@JRyman I think you have concluded this discussion quite nicely, quite appropriately and in a fashion that is befitting of how you started it.
It was “rewatch”. Try it. Turn off the sound. Watch each possession closely. I have found that I learn a tremendous amount about the game, and what Bill Self is trying to do. Doing so, quite frankly, reinforces why I agree with him 90% of the time. I rewatch the games early in the morning before going to work (usually). It literally doubles my enjoyment of KU basketball. I rewatched the same way a few Duke games, some Gonzaga, Notre Dame and late in the season (when I realized MSU’s three point attempts), the Spartans. It has the effect of changing your perspective.
@Texas-Hawk-10 You are exactly right. There may be circumstantial evidence that supports Traylor. The best circumstantial evidence is that Self plays him. I’m interested in more. And the +/- you refer to is an excellent stat, and one that could (nearly) definitely 1) put a nail in the coffin of the intangibles, " he makes others better", argument, or 2) cause those questioning his value to rethink the whole darned thing.
However, I can’t locate the stat – I’m trying to find it. The site I used to jump on to find it is shut down now. I’m looking …
Last season, for a five game stretch I kept track of it on Traylor and Selden, the two guys that have had the worst PER on the team (Player Efficiency Rating). Both were negative, but Selden was more negative in the five game stretch – meaning whether we gained or lost on our opponent when they were in the game. But a five game stretch in that context, I think, isn’t of great value to be honest. And it has to be viewed against other players too – that’s important.
@jaybate-1.0 You nailed it. Well thought out.
The preseason opener is this week – time for basketball.
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@HighEliteMajor guess it would have been to much to expect an apology from you to end it all, from your personal attacks to end it.
And it was “rematch” S to what you typed and I quoted you as saying. You may have meant to say “rewatch” but I can’t assume anything when it comes to your ramblings and defenitive answers.
I went back I when I started my post/thread I never said anything about anyone specific. It was as a general statement. You took it personal from there. Not once. But more and when you couldn’t get me to drop you did I again.
Your true colors have really shown the last couple of days to the person you really are.
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@JRyman “DROP-IT” … Put it behind YOU and MOVE ON!!!
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@Red.Rooster said:
@JRyman “DROP-IT” … Put it behind YOU and MOVE ON!!!
Why just me? Why not both sides?
Why can’t I voice my opinion and carry a torch for my beliefs? Over and over and over again?
Am I beating a dead horse?
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@JRyman yep! It’s a dead horse! Doesn’t work both ways on here.
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@HighEliteMajor I didn’t figure you’d be able to find that stat since you’ve never cited it before, but thought I’d ask about it. I’ve always used Fox Sports to get advanced stats. I’m not sure how far back they go, but it’s a really good source for those numbers and in no danger of being shut down.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@JRyman yep! It’s a dead horse! Doesn’t work both ways on here.
Well the in the words of John McClain “Yippie-ki-yay”
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Next Play!
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Maybe Jesse has the stats from last year. It’s something the staff should already have at their disposal.
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@BeddieKU23 @Texas-Hawk-10 I sent a DM to Jesse Newell yesterday morning and he responded and said the site was “group stats” – I was interested in the same thing. But that it is now a pay site. I plugged in my old computer and I have a link to an old group stats site that is shut down, so that must have been it. It has a link to the new site.
The price on the new group stats site is really made for teams, not individuals – here’s the link.
It does have a free sample of Kansas in the 2013-14 season.
A review of Traylor’s +/- from that season is .17 while out of the game and only .05 while in the game. That appears to be the worst difference among the regulars.
What is really interesting is that Connor Frankamp had clearly the best ratio difference – .10 when he was out vs. .26 when he was in. Of the Kansas regulars, Tharpe, Greene and Selden all had numbers that showed Kansas was better when they (individually) were out… Wiggins’ ratio was very good. So was Tarik Black’s
On Traylor, while we don’t know what the last season brought in comparison, it’s not too big of a leap to assume it was even worse for Traylor, given that his points per minute and his rebounds per minute went down from 2013-14 to 2014-15. I can’t imagine that 2014-15 +/- would not have rendered the same result – that he was our worst rotation player on the +/-.
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I would assume Traylor didn’t have a good ± ratio. Between his turnovers, low rebounding rates, & low scoring totals, its hard to believe they were better than the previous year. I would have been interested in Svi’s, Oubre’s, & Cliff’s stats from last year.
A tool like this could be very helpful to Self. Certainly not saying its the best model but it can be helpful in figuring out who’s doing better at a given time. Sometimes film isn’t going to show you that, especially over the course of 1 game or over the course of the season.
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One thing I would note, when it comes to evaluating players, numbers don’t always tell the whole story (especially basic stats, like ppg, rpg, even rebounds/minute). This is more true in certain sports than in others, and I think for basketball this is more true than, say, baseball. Arguments over any individual player’s worth remind me of the Ewing Theory: an analysis of Patrick Ewing’s career with the Knicks that looked at the team’s performance with Ewing on the court vs. off the court. In short, the Knicks actually tended to perform better with Ewing off the court than with him on. Ewing had superstar individual stats on both ends of the floor, and is still known as one of the greatest centers of all time. But the team’s performance with him in the game did not reflect this. This has been observed with other big-stat players (Carmelo with the Nuggets comes to mind), and small-stat players have shown to have the reverse effect. There are countless possibilities as to why this was the case, but the overall takeaway is that basketball is a team sport. The team’s success is based on their total ability to work together to perform better than the opposing team. Just because a player’s individual stats are inferior to another’s does not mean that the other player should be absorbing their minutes.
When it comes to Traylor, this will probably be up for debate for the remainder of his college bball career. And I’m not saying I don’t think other most players deserve to have his minutes; I actually tend to agree with HEM on this. But I think it does broaden the discussion of which players deserve to play more. There are advanced stats that we can use to help with this (+/- is a good start), so it’s not entirely voodoo. But there are other factors that can’t be measured as easily that play a roll in the overall effectiveness of the team (contagious grit, leadership, communication, twin psychic powers, etc.). And when it comes to team chemistry and leadership, Coach Self does have unmatched insider knowledge.
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Enjoyed reading about your small town coffee shop experiences.
Chat forums definitely have a different dynamic over face-to-face.
In some ways, I think this form is more honest. In face-to-face conversations people tend to be a bit defensive so they won’t share a lot of their real thoughts.
That doesn’t seem like a problem here.
Since people aren’t really used to sharing their real thoughts, I think they are a bit out of practice for keeping it polished and not hurting others’ feelings.
I used to be a lot more open in face-to-face conversation until things have gone so tightly on being politically correct that I feel uncomfortable to talk about anything where I might set someone off.
BTW: If I have ticked off anyone in here… I apologize.
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I wouldn’t trade Self for any other coach… from D1 to the NBA!
I would like to see him try a few more things because I fear we might grow stagnant in our results. I think all coaches, including the best, have to adjust to the times. The game is changing constantly… players are different… skills are changing… game rules changing… nothing stays the same.
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I would point to guys like Kevin Young, Brady Morningstar among others as I read your post. They were integral parts of the lineup for reasons that didn’t always involve a stat that was written down. So I agree in that regard.
How do we take Self’s comments about Mari playing the best basketball of his career in the past few weeks?
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How do we take Self’s comments about Mari playing the best basketball of his career in the past few weeks?
You asked @HighEliteMajor but I’ll chime in.
Self said Mari is playing the best basketball of his career, and he also said fans will think Mickelson is the most improved player.
I put those two together and read “No matter how much you want me to play Hunter over Mari, I’m playing Mari, so just get over it.”
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" I went through – took the time – and calculated the rebound rate of every Kansas post player per minute played."
You’ve got “COACH” written all over you!
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@JRyman I used to be you two years ago. HEM is a joy to read. I really think that his basketball acumen is spot on. At first read, it seems he is attacking Jamari, but it has never been Jamari, it has always been Self and Self’s inability to not want to lose a game. If a “Can’t Miss Stud” goes back to the bench for a lack of energy, Jamari has always been the standard for the type of energy that Bill wants on the court. Jamari has been here 5 years and still he does not possess the basketball ability of others on this team with his height. The argument then from the anti Jamari’s is that these younger studs need to stay on the court and Bill should sometimes lose to give the Skippy’s time to play through their lack of understanding of what Bill wants. It is a conundrum and one that is always being argued about. This has been going on for a long time on this site and everyone knows I’m mostly always on the side of Bill Self. I agree that HEM is right about Jamari, but wrong about our Coach. Mostly, I just post pictures of what Jamari does for our team.
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Just to add to the discussion … would be shocked if Jamari didn’t start Wednesday. Self wouldn’t tip his hand on the big men, but he seems pleased with Jamari this year like every other.
As far as Traylor’s rebounding goes, I’ wrote about it here last year.
One final thing: The LJW’s Tom Keegan asked Self specifically about Traylor playing despite his poor rebounding numbers yesterday. Here’s the transcript:
Q. You had a lot of big guys, where can Traylor get on the floor, he hasn’t been a great rebounder, he’s not a naturally great scorer. Is it being disruptive?
BILL SELF: I think so. Just energy. Jamari has actually played better than he’s played at any point in time in his career or the last two weeks, so I don’t know who will start tomorrow night, but he certainly would be a guy that deserves to start as much as anybody else right now, but that doesn’t mean we’ll start him, just because we want to look at different combinations. We already know how he and Perry can play together, we may want to look at some different stuff. Not tomorrow night, Wednesday night.
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This post is deleted!
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@Jesse-Newell I wouldn’t be shocked, either … that’s what Self does. Your link provides good info – the Traylor discussion is really a subjective one. There is no “objective” that anyone can find support in. I found press conference response by Self interesting. I watched it yesterday on the TWC sports channel. Self’s “just energy” response, I thought, was odd – my first thought was, “really, ‘just energy’?” Then I thought about and came to the unfortunate conclusion that, really, it is just energy.
Self said before the WUG (around the exhibitions) the following - “What keys spurts is energy. and Jamari can sometimes do that and Hunter is capable of being an energy guy. Some guys aren’t capable of that, but Hunter certainly can.”
But if a player like Traylor does not create more points when he’s in the game – if the team’s +/- is worse when he’s in the game, don’t stats prove that Self’s assumption is incorrect? Sure, Self qualified that with “sometimes” – which I’m sure is true. But the point is the same. If a guy is a net negative, he’s a net negative. That means the highs are outweighed by the lows.
And it doesn’t really take stats to tell us that anyway, right?
Let’s hope the guy has a good year. The Jamari Traylor death watch, so to speak, is a difficult one.
@drgnslayr Thanks. I know some here don’t like stats too much. But stats lead you to the right questions, in my opinion. It allows you to analyze without letting your heart make your decisions for you.
But another point is Mickelson. The quote above talks about Mickelson, too. Self has commented multiple times on Hunter’s energy. This is from the Exhibition time frame, leading up to the WUG:
“I think tonight for the first time in a while, I thought he played to his athletic ability,” Self added. “He made a couple of great blocks. He scored with his left, which we’ve been trying to get him to do a lot. Then of course, he showed a lot of bounce, too. He was just playing with energy.”
Self said last season that when Mickelson got to play against West Virginia, he “busted his butt.”
“You can really tell somebody that’s valuable to a team if they’re an energy-giver. I do think that we have some guys, and every team does, that try real hard that really aren’t energy-givers. But guys that are real energy-givers, it’s amazing, just everybody seems to be loud and on their feet when they’re around, and I think Hunter is learning how to do that.”
There may be hope.
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@Statmachine #5 by committee.
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Let’s put things into perspective.
These first games are just advanced scrimmages in front of a crowd.
Self does what most coaches do… use every situation to help motivate the players he needs to motivate the most. Self currently feels like other post players could use more of a kick in the pants than Jamari, so Jamari will start.
This has zero reflection on who will start in B12 play and beyond.
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@drgnslayr I don’t think it’s a kick in the pants if Jamari starts tomorrow. When there’s been position battles going on, Self has historically started the person who’s looked the best in practice leading up to the game for the two exhibition games.
It sounds like Jamari has had the best week of practice leading up to tomorrow’s game so he’ll likely start on those merits. If Landen Lucas has the best week of practice between the two exhibition games, he’d start the second one.
The Northern Colorado game will be when we all find out if it’s Mickelson or Traylor that really starts next to Ellis.
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Yeah… I read that.
I don’t doubt that Jamari had the best week of practice. But I think it is all part of getting everyone to push harder. Just like he was talking about a bad couple weeks of practice for the team.
The key, especially early and with new players, is to get these guys to realize that they are not only competing against other teams, but also among other players on the same team (for PT).
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@Jesse-Newell Thanks Jesse, for responding here on this. Everyone on here totally values your knowledge and thoughts on all aspects of KU Hoops. Thanks!! Rock Chalk!
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Will Roger is reputed to have said…there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Here are some statistics that we just witnessed;
9 royals players played all 16 post season games and here is the order they finished on three key statistics, with 9 being the worst:
Batting %
- No. 9 Player A
- No. 8 Player B
- No. 7 Player C
On Base %
- No. 9 Player A
- No. 8 Player B
- No. 7 Player D
Most strikeouts
- No, 9 Player A
- No. 8 Player C
- No. 7 Player E
Obviously these players had the worse stats in the team…do you care to guess which players are these?
- Player A - Eric Hosmer
- Player B - Mike Mpustakas
- Player C - Alex Gordon
- Player D. Kendris Morales
- Player E- Lorenzo Cain
Now, do you think the Royals win the WS without these players? Even without one of them? So much for statistics.
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t get it. I guess in some backhanded way you’re trying to justify the inexplicable decision last season to continue to play Traylor big minutes? Is that the point of this? Or are you trying to, in some backhanded way, attack Bill Self because he sat Traylor’s butt on the bench in the WUG? I guess I’m not sure …
What I find funny is when folks try to devalue stats. It is incredibly important evidence of overall performance. “So much for statistics”? That’s dismissive. That’s acting as if they don’t matter.
Think about what you just said. I can’t even comprehend that sort of conclusory statement.
So regarding Traylor, we ignore the poor rebounding, we ignore the lack of scoring, we ignore the horrible PER, we ignore the +/-, we ignore the turnovers – in favor of nothing.
But I’m sure if Traylor has good stats this season those stats will be cited to justify his playing time. We know that.
With regard to the Royals, seriously, this means nothing. It is meaningless.
To explain Hosmer, it’s called “timely hitting.” A term that describes a player that delivers when there are runners in scoring position. You can confirm that by checking out that very important “RBI” statistic. He drove in 17 runs this post season in 16 games. So right, so much for statistics. Or look at Wade Davis’ ERA. That would be 0.00. Like Blutarski’s grade point average.
Right, so much for stats.
Hosmer just didn’t have high batting average. Nor did he have a high OPS. But, of course, you could look at last year’s playoffs and you would see completely the opposite. He led the team in batting average and OPS. Uh, so much for statistics.
To answer your question, yes, we could have won the world series without one, two or three of them … if the person in their place produced better than they did, we certainly could have. That’s kind of why we added guys with good stats, Cueto and Zobrist. And that’s kind of why Infante and Guthrie were left off the roster as a consequence. Those pesky stats.
And no, this is not to devalue chemistry. Something I put a lot of stock in. Or good coaching moves. As I said before, stats are important evidence. They are piece of the puzzle, but a really, really large piece.
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@HighEliteMajor why? Why are one persons stats irrelevant and yours all there is in the world?
I don’t get that.
Does anyone get that?
Why when you ask for stats to back up an argument and someone takes the time to produce them you discredit them for not making sense or being irrelevant?
This is what I was getting at earlier. Why is it that when you say something we must bow down to your holiness, but when someone says something to ruffle your feathers its BS and we shouldn’t take them for what they say. Just because you say so.
I will take your talk on the game. I think you have some good points here and there. Are you the greatest basketball mind on this board? Probably not, but I don’t have proof to prove it one way or another just as I don’t have proof what others basketball IQ is or coaching accumen might be.
But when you step behind your lecture and stand on your soap box it gets tiring to read over and over and over again.
Ok go for it. Come at me with your personal attacks like you always do.
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@JRyman I’m not sure you understand the point of my post. His premise is “so much for statistics.”
My point is that statistics … his, mine, yours … are important. It is a response in support of the use of statistics.
Further, I am supporting a point that many who are a not fans of statistical analysis argue – that selected stats can’t be viewed in a vacuum.
His citation of the Royals is suggested to show that stats are meaningless in the scope of overall team performance. Further, selected stats are used to prove his point while ignoring many other stats I did not cite – selective use of statistics.
Therefore, I cited stats – the items that he suggests don’t tell the story – to help explain the story. For example, Hosmer’s RBI statistic and Davis’ ERA. And in doing so, I highlighted a very real point when dealing with stats – the selective use of certain stats to try to tell a story, doesn’t tell the story.
So, for example, if Traylor morphs into .32 per minute rebounder this season, and the rest of his stats stay constant, is it fair to cite all those other poor stats and ignore the rebounding stat? Do we cite his poor stats without citing the excellent rebounding stat, and then conclude “so much for stats” when he helps us win a national championship?
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Let’s face it… stats have become a HUGE part of sports.
First… stats are a tool. They are not the only tool to use for analysis, planning, coaching, etc… but they are a tool, and a very important tool.
Back to how stats have become a HUGE part of sports. I’ll go a step further… sports media is making stats the STAR of sporting events. Proof in point… the World Series. Now I can see how relaying some stats to the fans is useful, especially the one stat discussed in the link below… but come on! Every player was analyzed against the entire history of the World Series. Familia, who is one of the best relief pitchers in baseball today, was given the boot for being the worst… three blown saves… a World Series “record.” Was it really necessary to defame the guy because of what happened? He was put in bad situations, never a clean inning to step into, and an infield defense that plain stunk… and he was going against the very best (oops, almost gave away the stat that counted most).
I know one thing… I know one record that was truly SHATTERED during this World Series… the number of times that commentators compared and mentioned World Series stats. I bet it was in the hundreds of times.
Okay… I’ve cleansed my pallet.
Now… on to the one stat that really counted:
Incredible stat captures how clutch Royals were this postseason
I love these Royals! They defended everything that is right (and capable) in sports. They are the example. They have now set the bar. It was so refreshing to see real TEAM work and no egos creating separation. This may end up being my personal highest moment in sports I will ever witness.
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@JRyman you are being ridiculous! I’ll tell you what is getting “tiring to read over and over and over again”. You posting all over this site playing some sort of victim role in your head! In your two day rant, you have become everything that you have wrongly accused @HighEliteMajor and many other poster on here of being. You have absolutely missed the forest for the trees. The last two days, everyone on this board has been showing you some grace by “walking on egg shells” around your post, going out of their way to find something to agree with you on, or just ignoring you and the fact that you offended many of us on here.
First of all, I don’t even know why I’m wasting my time with your nonsense, but here we go. Many of us on here feel that Jamari’s over all body of work playing at KU shouldn’t earn him the kind of minutes that he has been seeing this last year. That is based on our opinions, stats, eye test, or maybe just gut feelings. In your post, you said that our thoughts, opinions, and analysis are “BS”. And you also said that we only feel this way because we are “haters”. I believe everyone on this site wishes the best for Jamari and we all hope that he can prove us wrong and have an unbelievable season. I don’t hate anyone. Now I don’t really care what you think of my opinions, but I do care when you accuse me and other poster on here of being “haters” when we clearly are not. Talk about “personal attacks”, huh!
Also in the same post, you accused us of “cyberbullying”. That was another ridiculous comment which ironically, turned to tragically laughable when you not only personally attacked us, but singled out @HighEliteMajor as the apparent lead “hater”. Talk about cyberbullying, singling out someone online to take your frustrations out on. Seriously, go back and read your post. What you have been doing the last couple days is the definition of cyberbullying.
You accuse @HighEliteMajor of “being on a self-appointed soapbox”. The only person who appears to wanting a soapbox to stand on is you! Here’s some advice for you going forward, the only way someone can be on a soapbox is if you give them the box to begin with.
Then to really throw salt in our wounds, when @HighEliteMajor tried to respectfully reply to you, you chastised him for not giving you an apology! Well, we’re all waiting on an apology from you.
@HighEliteMajor I apologize to you. I know you don’t need any help, but you’ve stuck up for me before and I’m returning the favor.
To everyone: There has been a lot of negative post on here directed at and meant to bash @HighEliteMajor 's character. First of all, I enjoy his post and anytime that I’m able to converse with him, as is the same with all of you. I like to share with you a story about a discussion I had with him. I think this was back in the spring, sometime near the end of last season. I can’t even remember what topic we were discussing, but it was a great back and forth. Point, counter point, counter point, etc… Everything stayed very respectful, and I know that the discussion opened my mind to better understand what we discussing, and I think for him too. But, after a lot of back and forth, he still held to his view and I still held to mine. Unfortunately, I knew that I wouldn’t be able to continue the discussion because I would be away from the computer for a while. But I so much enjoyed the discussion we were having that I made one more post to support my side of the issue, and then I sent him an IM to say thanks to him for the conversation and to tell him that he could have the last word because I had to back out. Now this is what meant the most to me, he could have posted a response and won the debate for all of you to see, but he didn’t. Conversation stood there as it was, for all of you to see, with me having the last word. Now I don’t know, maybe he didn’t think it was worth his time to respond to my last post. But, I like to think that maybe he respected me and my argument and didn’t want to win the debate that way with me having to back out of the discussion. He could have showed me up, but he didn’t, and what I found in that debate was more than basketball. It was mutual respect and grace. And I thank him for that.
@JRyman You have been acting like everything that you have been accusing other of, period. Where’s our apologies?
You might think about changing your signature line. How about this one?
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.”
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very nice post!
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@jayhawkbychoice I hear you. In my original post I didn’t use any names.
I voiced my opinion just as that an opinion of some of the things I had been reading on this site over and over again.
It got to me and yes I lashed out. I let it fly. Then my opinion was taken to task, so like many other on here I defended myself.
There is no reason for anyone to walk on egg shells around me. I know for a fact that there were many who supported me either in the post or in private messaging as they too have run into the buzz saw and liked seeing someone else out there fighting.
STATS ARE HUGE in sports. I know I played football and basketball. I looked at stat sheets every Fridsy night. Mondsy during film sessions. Stats have their place. But to turn stats into one persons reason for something but not allowing another person to use the stats they want I find ironic.
I have never stood on a soap box. I just finally drew a line in the sand. Maybe I crossed it too? Who knows? Maybe the waves washed it out?
I find there are great posters on this site that are afraid to voice their opinion though because they are afraid of being tore apart or made to look foolish for having their own beliefs. I’m not saying it’s done by one person alone. @HighEliteMajor knows the game, I for one do not know to what degree, but reading what he rights can be informative. But it can also make people feel that their opinions and thoughts don’t matter and aren’t good enough.
Sorry to @HighEliteMajor for my rants and raves against you.
Sorry @jayhawkbychoice for ruffling your feathers.
But I will say this in closing. I’m not one to sit by and watch and let things go. Just because it’s always been done that way doesn’t mean it’s right. Sometimes we all need to be called out, just as you did to me. So I’ll let it go. For now, truth be told I hope others see this and do as I did from time to time, stand up for what they want to.
I think we all should keep each other in line. Call people out for getting mighty and over the top. Stand and rise. Feel good about your post. Back others opinions as you would your own if you agree.
@jayhawkbychoice You don’t have to agree with me. I don’t have to agree with @highelitemajor either.
So if I offended anyone else out there with my public rant and rave. I’m sorry. If you would like a personal apology please message me and I’ll get it out to you. If there is anything else I’ll be getting ready for dear season.
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Don’t you mean getting ready for tonight’s Exhibition Game??
Tonight we can focus on the players & see how improved some may be or how much work we have to do to get where we all want this team to go!
Tonight/Tomm and until next tuesday we can kick & scream at how well they did or how poorly we did. It will be nice to have a game to talk about
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@BeddieKU23 I have an old 30.06 with a new scope I need to dial in before next weekend. So I will be infect getting ready for deer season today a bit.
Can’t wait to read tomorrow’s post though.
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@JRyman No worries, my man. My apologies as well. Let’s point the ship forward.
@jayhawkbychoice Very much appreciated.
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You made a mountain out of molehill. My post simply illustrated that often enough statistics alone do not tell the entire story. Case in point, the stats I cited are numbers that are commonly used in baseball to illustrate performance and yet…looking at them by themselves paint quite a different picture than what the actual end result was.
I know you cite Traylor numbers often enough that we all probably know them by heart, but there have been many occasion where his defense and contagious enthusiasm have changed games. For example, the Baylor game last year when he hit 6-7 from the field and had 5 rebounds and 2 blocks and KU eked out a 56-55 win…without Traylor KU does not win that game, or the Easter Kentucky game in the NCAA where he scored 7-8 from the field and had 14…that is correct, 14 rebounds and he was the main reason KU was able to win that game. I am not saying that Traylor is a super star or that he should start, but when you post that Traylor is not even Division I material (yes, you stated that), then you lose credibility because he has not only played for a Division I team but he has started for an Elite Division I program in the top Conference in college basketball, so obviously he is plenty capable playing Division I…according to Coach Self, who I believe is more qualified than you to judge his performance (this is my personal opinion, of course) although you probably don’t agree with this assessment either, so we just agree to disagree. That’s all.
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@JayHawkFanToo I hope Traylor kicks a** this season. He (and CF) saved us in the EKU game as you pointed out. Have a great day – it’s KU’s first game and the start of another ride, which I will try to enjoy.
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Unfortunately, thanks to Zenger, I cannot watch the game so the radio will have to do…or an Eastern European Internet feed…
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@JayHawkFanToo You live in Johnson County, right? Buffalo Wild Wings will have game. Sort of like pay per view, given the high price of wings.
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Never cared for that place or wings for that matter. My Dad has Comcast at at his Retirement Home but he goes to bed at 8:00 PM.
I might be meeting friends at the Power and Light District this evening and I would think one of the many sports bars would have the game on. Thanks for the suggestion though…:)
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@JayHawkFanToo Every time someone mentions what a bad rebounder Jamari is (and I agree), I scratch my head trying to remember if it actually mattered last year.
So I checked the stats. Turns out, Jamari actually rebounded better (statistically) in games we LOST than in games we won last year.
Traylor rebounds per minute (rpm):
Season Overall: .182 rpm
Wins: .179 rpm
Losses (when outrebounded as a team): .189 rpm
All Losses: .190 rpm
In four of the nine losses, KU as a team was out rebounded, but in three of those 4 losses, Traylor actually had the second highest individual rebounding total. With a couple of exceptions, most of his best rebounding games were games KU lost including the final game against WSU (.3 rpm).
So, with that, I conclude that Traylor’s poor rebounding has nothing to do with his playing time. It’s actually a net positive… one of those intangibles that only a great mind like Bill Self would have noticed.
