Matt Tait article on KU ball
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@HighEliteMajor when was the last time you sat down and talked with coach Self about his players? Or anyone on the coaching staff?
What makes you know more than anyone else or have all this great knowledge of KU basketball with this roster and staff?
Are you at practices? Meetings? Film sessions?
So it’s your opinion and no fact what Self knows when you say it just because you say it.
You’d think a fan like you would respect Traylor instead of consistently trash him and out him down. It’s old and over worked now. We get it it you only like Jayhawk players that fit your system. Which is a system that doesn’t matter cause you’re not the coach.
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@JRyman Perhaps this is the day you failed to take your medication. I don’t know. Obviously by the other thread you started you’ve picked this day to lash out at your fellow posters for daring to comment, analyze and critique Kansas basketball. Take a deep breath. Count to 10.
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@HighEliteMajor 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10.
There now I took my deep breath. Now you can come down from yourself appointed soapbox.
Deal?
I am not blind to the things that are a miss of KU basketball. No I don’t think coach Self is the almighty figure of coaching either. But I’m also not going to sit here and bite my tongue with the insistent bashing of Traylor or the questioning of the severity of BGs injury and surgery like they have an insight or the knowledge to do so.
If it stings or hurts about my other thread I started, then I guess it’s true. The truth hurts.
As for my meds since your not a doctor you have no clue what I should or should not be taking. So if you want to make it personal we sure can.
I’m just amused and annoyed at how much you think you know about the game itself.
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There are such things a chat boxes/windows on this site where the 2 of you can IM each other.
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I personally enjoy reading others opinions and like to engage others on this site. The facts are that this is a board where people can come and voice their opinion’s. I see both sides of the argument and I agree with some of what everyone says. You guys can hash it out publically and look foolish to others on this site or take it to a chat window? Either way I am entertained!
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@JRyman I was of course kidding about the meds … this just seemed a little out of character for you, meaning your approach.
I am very interested in hearing why I’m wrong on things. If it’s just “because Bill Self does it this way”, that doesn’t really inspire a discussion. Perhaps that’s what you want. But I love the discussion when it comes to hoops.
And I “bash” Traylor’s performance. Perhaps you can defend it. I don’t even think there are Traylor supporters, per se. They just don’t criticize. No one here really defends his performance. Even some that have tried to explain his minutes end up conceding multiple points in some way or another.
So, would you rather have Traylor that Bragg this season? Go on record now. I’m interested.
And, actually, is there any player on this team that we all would root for more to have a great, kick-ass season than Traylor? I don’t think so. It would be tremendous for him to break out and have a great, story-book season. I think we all would hope for that.
On BG’s injury, I have spoken directly to an orthopedic surgeon, good friend of mine that deals with sports injuries all of the time, as part of the foundation for my comments. He agrees 100% with my comments here. Does that mean I’m right? Of course not.
I didn’t hear you disputing my take on Embiid’s knee injury, cause and effect, etc. That kind of played out as I mentioned at the time Embiid was rushed back, didn’t it? I might have been right on that one …
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@HighEliteMajor no I didn’t watch the WUGs. Had things to do this summer. Like family vacation, raising my kids along with other things.
Plus it wasn’t our full team to watch. Players that go to KU can’t play cause they were born elsewhere, really doesn’t make it “our team” when you bring guys in from other schools.
Jamari is still raw. He’s played organized ball for less than 10 years. Yeah guys like Embid who have a knack might pick it up quicker. Maybe Jamari’s numbers aren’t what you want them to be when he’s on the court but in comparison how are other players numbers when he’s in the game? What are the other 4 guys numbers when Bragg or Hunter are I. The game? Not just the player themselves Hunter and Braggs vs Jamari’s numbers but the rest of the teams? Just wondering if everyone’s drop off? Just showing one set of numbers makes for only a one sided argument to end the way you want it to.
I haven’t got to watch them play or scrimmage at late night either. Won’t take much from the PSU game neither. I’ll wait to pick a player when I have had s chance to watch them all play against D1 teams.
As for surgery and recovery everyone heals at different rates. Some people comeback and are a force like Adrian Peterson. Others take more time, might not make it back. No surgeon will ever say that two surgeries are the same nor will two people heal at the same rate.
I’d just like to see people step back and even down from their perches and see the players for what they are. Teenagers and young men. I’m sure st 21 23 years old non of us were doing our jobs at the rate and as well as our bosses wanted. We just weren’t watched by the world.
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If no Cheick all season, then up to 20 mpg, after January 1. I just don’t think he appears strong enough at this early age to hope for more even under a best case.
If Cheick, then this turns into an apprentice season for Bragg behind Perry: 10-15 mpg.
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My feelings on Jamari Traylor and Coach Self. There have been a few games that we do not win without him. So, yes we need him. There is not anyone that ever played the game of basketball, that hasn’t had a bad game. It doesn’t mean that he sucks, or has a lack of intelligence. It just means, it didn’t go his way. That’s what opponents are for, to ensure things don’t your way. As far as what player plays and what player doesn’t, that’s on Coach Self. He is getting paid the big bucks to figure that out. I only watch the game. I don’t have to travel and meet with recruits, some of which have zero intention of ever attending KU, but it’s cool/trendy to put us on their list. I don’t have to worry about these kids getting into any trouble, fights, or domestic situations. I don’t have to massage their egos when they feel like they aren’t getting enough minutes and want to transfer or be the bad guy that has to suggest to a kid that maybe he should. I don’t have to spend sleepless night wondering about game plans or opponents nor fans unrealistic expectations. I just turn the TV on or go to the games. In other words I don’t worry about Sugar Honey Iced Tea that I can’t change. I do have fun talking hoops with the majority of you, but it ain’t my life.
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@KansasComet Sugar Honey Iced Tea.
Nice!
A couple of days ago I would have said
Sure Happy It’s Thursday.
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If anyone remembers the hoops talk over coffee and a Danish in small town cafes, which is the tradition these chat boards arise from, the old timers were way tougher and unflinching in their assessments of coaches and players than we are here. They were brutal on second guessing coaches. Players were cut some slack unless they missed big shots, then they were chokers pure and simple. And they didn’t have bandwidth to be nuanced about things. America used to be a place you were held accountable NOW for failure. PEOPLE GOT FIRED FOR LOUSY WORK INSTEAD OF LAYED OFF FOR OUTSOURCING. GENERALS AND ADMIRALS THAT LOST WERE RELIEVED OF DUTY, NOT CORPORALS. I’m not an Old Testament guy, but we just are not nearly as tough on our bungling leaders and our poor playing teams as we once were. We are just worse at sniping and smearing even in good times.
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@jaybate-1.0 I grew up in that little town coffee shop. Every Saturday morning after feeding cow calf pairs going back into town for dads coffee listening to the old men talk about Fridsy nights game.
When I became a player I still heard all these old men talk about what I should be doing differently, what the team should have done here or the coach there.
The problem is non of them knew what coach wanted from us. They didn’t know what we practiced or how.
Plus it was face to face. So guys didn’t disrespect or questions ones comments in ways of being condensending. YES they would argue but it was done with respect. Not a demeanor of holier than thou like chat boards and fan sites are now.
Charles Barkley spoke to either Florida or Florida state this summer, one of the two football programs and told them when it comes to Twitter and Facebook they should type it out and wait 5 minutes retread it. Then wait another 5 minutes and delete it.
We all get caught up in our own feelings and insights, but then we sit behind a keyboard or tablet or phone and just spew things out that in our normal lives we most likely would not in person. Maybe it’s due to instant reaction in person? Telling someone they are this or that and always wrong for disagreeing, might get a person punched in the face if it was done in person. Online there is no kickback like that, maybe your post gets flagged, but that’s nothing as it could be In real life settings.
Back to that coffee shop. .25 got you a cup of coffee and one free refill. I learned a lot about sports in there on Saturday mornings, probably more about life though.
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@JRyman By definition, when you’re passionate about something, you act differently than things you don’t care about at all. We’re all KU fans here (mostly!). We care. We have ideas about what will work and what won’t. You’re so right saying that we spew things out from these electronic devices that we would never say in public. At least I hope we wouldn’t. And the “5 minute rule” from Barkley is a great one, though I don’t twitter or facebook - I have hit the “Discard” tab MANY, MANY times. Probably not often enough though. The times that I do “get into it” with other posters, I really feel some regret. Why is my opinion better than theirs? Or theirs better than mine? I’ve had some pretty darn good discussions through starting a chat with an apology and it’s almost always worked out to where both parties feel better about the whole situation. It’s going to happen - thank God we don’t all think the same way. For the most part, people on this site have done a great job of keeping things sanitary and non-venomous. Those of us who haven’t always done that , hopefully we’re working on it !
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It appears to me that you think public discourse of sports is problematic.
I think it isn’t.
It appears you recall being misunderstood when you played. I recall the fans of my high school and the parents and the folks in the cafe understood as well as we did what we were doing. Most of them had played basketball. I especially remember listening to a neighbor down the street that had played college basketball for Sox Walseth at Colorado hooting hysterically at how little one of my high school basketball coaches knew about the game. I was dating his daughter at the time. He sat with me over dinner and layed out exactly what my coach was telling us to do and then layed out exactly how that was the wrong way to do it. And he was right. And I learned a ton from him. And I have always been grateful to him for teaching me that my cocksure, authoritarian coach was not all he was cracked up to be.
And I also recall lots of persons commenting on the games and on another coach I had–one who genuinely knew the game, and on teammates and myself that didn’t know their butts from a rebound. And these folks never bothered me even a little.
So: I was grateful for the all the smart ones that cared about the game and like to talk the game. I always learned a lot from them. And I was never bothered by the idiots.
In turn, I am a huge fan of reading what aliases think about the game in a public forum like this, and I still learn a ton here after all these years.
I think aliases worry too much about the adverse impacts of public discourse, and not enough on learning from the public discourse.
I think vigorous public discourse is a virtue and a sign of a robust and healthy society.
Robust political discourse is indispensable to a republic. I am endlessly flummoxed by Americans that fear free speech.
I think public discourse of sport is a virtue and a strength of this board and, though we represent a infinitesimal slice of basketball fans, it excites me and makes me think basketball can avoid becoming a moribund sport given the vigorous and interesting posting going on here.
I just don’t share any of your concerns about public discourse of sports being a cause for concern.
Its all a positive to me.
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@jaybate-1.0 To me, it’s not “all” a positive but mostly.
The more it’s about the team and not about other aliases, the better I like it.
The less it’s about what we feel and more about why we feel that way, the better I like it.
The more it’s “here’s what I say” and not “you shut up”, the better I like it.
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@jaybate-1.0 Hey I’m all for opinions of others and free speech. It’s what makes America great. I’m not trying to take that away or make it a bad thing.
I’m not saying you can’t question a play in a game or a players play in a game.
What I am saying is how it’s done. Why is there angst and personal attacks? Why is there no room for others to disagree with someone else’s opinion without them being blind or uneducated?
If I follow Bill Self and take everything he says or does as scripture I am following on blind faith and don’t understand the game.
BUT when I disagree with some one on this board about their opinion I’m uneducated and have not been around the game nearly enough to know what I’m talking about.
So to your point that it’s all good isn’t true. It’s only good if you agree with the right people.
It comes down to this.
Is anyone on this sight have a higher basketball IQ than Bill Self does? Yes or no?
Does anyone know this roster of players better than Bill Self does? Yes or no?
Does anyone know what players need to be recruited and signed for this KU team better than coach Self does? Yes or no?
If anyone can answer yes to any of those questions please step out of your shadows and reveal what great coach you are. Prove it to the masses you are as great as you say you are? What’s you wing percentage? Where? What level?
Not that tou can question him or the players. But DO NOT pass off you opinions as facts and then bash others when they don’t agree with you. Don’t be that poster that has Jim Rome syndrome and can never be wrong, just because you say aren’t.
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@JRyman I just don’t see people on here being put down for being uneducated or blind in a categorical manner. Sure there are a few times posters can get personal or criticized on a particular issue, but it seems you’ve taken it to a new level of being categorically offended.
I personally like the back and forth especially when it is supported by facts, figures and strong analytical breakdown of the relevant issues. You seem to dismiss that form of argumentation for the eye-test and the sanctity of the all-knowing insider.
Self is a hall of fame coach but that doesn’t mean, like any successful leader that he doesn’t have blind spots. That’s the nature of success with an paradigm: solves many issues very successfully within the paradigm and doesn’t see or discounts counter facts. The beauty of sports is we all get to see those approaches to the game played out in front of us over the course of a season or multiple seasons. Different coaches approaching the game differently with different levels of success. We also get to see those who adapt well: in game, between games, across the season and changing personnel.
That is the type of breakdown that I love this site for, the quality of the posters, many of whom bring a ton of knowledge about the game that I don’t have. It’s the difference between your run of the mill sports reporter who only relays what we all see with our own eyes and the little more detail they get from increased access to someone like Jesse Newell who brings stats and analysis of the game that raises all of our awareness of the game within the game.
Not sure who or what in particular got the burr under your saddle outside of strong opinions both ways around Jamari, but shake it off. Bring your argumentation…I for one enjoy the give and take w/o the personal animus with an understanding that it will happen from time to time around a particular topic. Shake it off then. Next play!
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@jaybate-1.0 This country was founded on public discourse. Basketball has grown and evolved based on the same. I love the game and love the players, even if it is love/hate and for better or worse, I wouldnt have it any other way. I watch the game and learn the game by watching and reading whats on here. Ive never played organized ball but learning about it is something I will never get tired of. And, really, thats what this site is all about to me.
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I did want to address a theme @JRyman brought up. I think it is important to remind him that this forum is just like life. There are certain folks that have certain experience, certain information, and a certain background that provides them a better foundation. This can be any topic or subject. For example, a doctor is more equipped to handle medical matters than is a physician’s assistant, a nurse practioner, a registered nurse, or a nursing assistant. And each is progressively more equipped. Bill Self is the doctor. We are the underlings.
The doctor is in charge. He makes the ultimate decisions. He has a better knowledge base. The physician’s assistant, a nurse practioner, a registered nurse, or a nursing assistant have varying levels of training, and may offer opinions. In some instances, the doctor may end up being wrong, where the physician’s assistant, the nurse practioner, the registered nurse, or the nursing assistant, may ultimately be correct. Or they may not.
When I talk about foundation in this forum, I’m sure some have barely played the game. I’m sure some have not coached at any level. I’m sure that some just watch basketball casually. I’m sure some may only watch Kansas basketball. I’m sure there are some that watch KU and other college games. I’m sure there are some that are quite young, and some that are quite old.
All of this contributes to an experience level. Everyone can offer opinions of course. And everyone can be right, regardless of IQ.
And I can tell you this – @jaybate-1.0 total IQ is clearly higher that Bill Self’s IQ. Use that how you would like.
But I do think time, experience, background, etc., is important. Here’s an example - last season we had a number of debates and discussions regarding scheme. One vocal supporter of Self admitted that he didn’t have time to watch other college basketball games. This after a relatively long discussion on certain schemes, run by other teams, that might fit better with KU’s personnel. How in the world can you defend Self when you aren’t even privy to what the rest of the CBB world is doing? Or when, fundamentally, you don’t understand the basics of the scheme in question?
Similarly, @JRyman admitted that he didn’t even watch the WUGs, saying he was busy raising kids and on a vacation (as if the rest of us who do make the time don’t do the same things). In his post, he made a point that an opinion is not a better opinion simply because “you can swing numbers to work for you” or because of “how much time you put into it.”
Really? Time – meaning study and analysis. And numbers – meaning the results of performance – this doesn’t provide for a better foundation of an opinion?
Ok, then. Traylor rebounds at a rate of .18 per minute. @JRyman – tell me why he’s a good rebounder? That simple stats tells us everything. I posted on this forum that no other Kansas rotation level post player, other than Justin Wesley, rebounded at worse rate than Traylor since Self has been here. Have you seen that reported on any other website? Even by Jesse Newell? Has any member of the press challenged Self on that topic?
Those stats have incredible value. So, @JRyman, how did I figure those out? I went through – took the time – and calculated the rebound rate of every Kansas post player per minute played.
I don’t know, but I think that was informative and I think it is dispositive of Traylor’s horrible work on the boards, which reflects on his value as a post player. I try to offer stuff like that.
The two stats above, and my opinion on Traylor, clearly makes some uncomfortable.
Anyone that supports Traylor playing the 20 mpg that Self played him last season has to own that stat. But come to the table with something. Detail what he has done in games. Give examples. No one has done that short of, wow, look at that dive on the floor vs. Texas.
I have detailed when Traylor has failed to block out, and given examples.
No, I’m sorry, every opinion is not built the same way.
I try to challenge thought processes with questions – If one of KU’s post players were going to get injured and out for the season, which one would you be least concerned about losing? Right. You know your answer. Hate? No. This core question allows you to get to your ultimate answer on Traylor’s value.
Could that change in 2015-16? Sure it could. I hope so.
Some have tried to understand and commiserate with @JRyman. The fact is, the posts by @JRyman on this supposed “topic” is baloney. It comes from someone who can’t find a way to make numbers works for him, or to challenge numbers that he disputes. He doesn’t spend the time to analyze the stats, he doesn’t take the time to rematch games, he clearly doesn’t take notes on each game, he clearly doesn’t look for trends or patterns, and he clearly doesn’t care to analyze the game.
That is all fine of course. We all have varying levels of interest. This is NOT being lazy, per se. We are all free to do what we want. But when you attack someone who does spend the time, and then you try to devalue that time spent and the analysis of the numbers, the contrast is that one is lazy in his opinions and one is not.
I think everyone here can see that I am very careful in what I challenge coach Self on. And for those that pay attention, I agree with Self on nearly everything he does. It’s the other 10% that are the debate topics from me.
The other thing is evidence. How are folks convicted of murder and other crimes? Many times it is solely circumstantial evidence. Yet they are found guilty by a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt. The highest standard of proof in the legal system.
No one saw them do it. But the circumstances tell us exactly what is going on from a fundamental standpoint. Same with basketball.
Example – Self has said that among his post player, Traylor is his best defender on the perimeter. Self regularly uses him in that situation. Late in a game, up by 2, Self leaves Lucas in. Lucas gets caught on a switch and a SF is able to score the tying basket. Self says after the game that Traylor was not injured. Isn’t it reasonable to question Self, based on his own words, as to why Traylor wasn’t in the game instead of Lucas in that situation? And isn’t it reasonable to conclude Self made the wrong decision based in part on result?
If you do not take the time to know the background and information that led to the opinion on Self’s decision, how can your reasonable challenge the opinion that Self made the wrong decision?
That’s what we get many times. Basically, Self knows best, you weren’t at practice, blah, blah, blah. That contrasted, in this example, vs. arguing why Lucas should have remained in the game vs. Traylor. For example, our opposition had not moved their post player out on the perimeter all game, so Self may have thought they’d run the same thing. Very reasonable counter point.
We get a lot of that good “point, counter point” on this site.
But @JRyman’s whining comes from someone who is uncomfortable and insecure in this sort of environment where debate and discussion, and opinions, do not go unchallenged.
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@HighEliteMajor said
When I talk about foundation in this forum, I’m sure some have barely played the game. I’m sure some have not coached at any level. I’m sure that some just watch basketball casually. I’m sure some may only watch Kansas basketball. I’m sure there are some that watch KU and other college games.
Your right you have no idea what my back ground in the game of basketball is. Nor do I know yours. So how are you able to question mine?
Some have tried to understand and commiserate with @JRyman. The fact is, the posts by @JRyman on this supposed “topic” is baloney. It comes from someone who can’t find a way to make numbers works for him, or to challenge numbers that he disputes. He doesn’t spend the time to analyze the stats, he doesn’t take the time to rematch games, he clearly doesn’t take notes on each game, he clearly doesn’t look for trends or patterns, and he clearly doesn’t care to analyze the game.
How does one actually “rematch” a game? Do you play it out on Xbox? Or did you mean “rewatch”? I’m sure you know what you meant. But no I don’t take notes on the game with my legal pad and Mark time stamps. I did that a player. Now I enjoy the game. Yes I can watch the game and learn from it without having to take notes, hit rewind or over analyze the game. I do however analyze the game I. Real time. I can tell you after s game things that didn’t work and do on. Then I move on to the next game. But for you to even think you know me and how I do things is ridiculous. Yes ridiculous. You do t know me from Adam and for that I am thankful.
The other thing is evidence. How are folks convicted of murder and other crimes? Many times it is solely circumstantial evidence. Yet they are found guilty by a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt. The highest standard of proof in the legal system.
Now we are dropping the legal system to back up opinions? That’s a reach. Good one though. .
But @JRyman’s whining comes from someone who is uncomfortable and insecure in this sort of environment where debate and discussion, and opinions, do not go unchallenged.
Here we go again with personal attacks. First I need to take my meds or I’m not feeling like myself.
Now I’m whining? That’s so big of you. I thought you could articulate your argument better than personal attacks.
But like you say what do I know I don’t put the time in or the care enough to know.
So keep up showing your true colors when you are called to task by attacking a person you do t know. Many have said they come here to this site over others because of posters like you. And yet here you are the king of the board (self appointed by the way) a tracking people wen they do t bow down to your baloney. Attaching people that have opened up about themselves and using it against them.
You are truly not the mature adult you have come off as or as you want to be.
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@ParisHawk said:
The less it’s about what we feel and more about why we feel that way
That is a very insightful way of putting it. Thanks.
I think that is something I can learn from–both as a technique for posting my own takes, and for redirecting others onto substance that triggers their feelings.
Rock Chalk!
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@JRyman and @HighEliteMajor The back and forth y’all are doing right now is why this site was created. There was/is way too much of this crap that goes on at KUSports and why many of us no longer post on a consistent basis over there.
@HighEliteMajor Nobody is going to dispute that you do have a solid knowledge base, but you do have a tendency to present it in a holier than thou manner and act offended when others use a different way of evaluating a player than you do. Just like you tells others there’s different ways to succeed on the court when you question Self, there’s other ways to measure a players impact than advanced numbers, but you consistently shoot down their opinions because they don’t use the same method you use of player evaluation.
I do think it’s interesting that you would use how a murder trial works as an example. You bring up that circumstantial evidence is how a conviction is reached because there’s not always empirical data to prove a person murdered another person. Yet you choose to challenge those and try to discredit those who use circumstantial evidence to form an opinion on Traylor because they don’t have the time to dig into the stats beyond the box score.
I don’t know which site you use to get your advanced numbers from, but there is one advanced number I would be curious about and that is KU’s +/- with Jamari on the court. I don’t know if any site tracks that stat at the college level, but that is a great way of measuring how a player who’s own numbers may not statistically impact positively, but being on the floor just makes the team better. I know Traylor’s personal stats aren’t great, but when he plays with high energy, the circumstantial evidence suggests that KU is a better team and that’s something a +/- stat would indicate.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Excellent and tactful post. Thanks!
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@JRyman said:
I am glad you reiterated your questions, so that I have another chance to answer them yes or no. and then go beyond the yes or no format to what I think is the heart of the matter.
Is anyone on this sight have a higher basketball IQ than Bill Self does? Yes or no? EMPHATICALLY NO. BUT EVERY BRILLIANT PERSON I HAVE EVER WORKED WITH HAS MADE MISTAKES AND MISJUDGMENTS THAT LESSERS CAUGHT AND BY CALLING ATTENTION TO THEM HELPING SUCH BRILLIANT PERSONS REDIRECT ONTO THE ERRORS. WE CLEARLY CATCH SELF IN MISTAKES AND MISJUDGMENTS, BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY OF US, WE THE ADVANTAGE OF HINDSIGHT, AND EVEN IN REAL TIME FORA LIKE JESSE NEWELL’S LIVE BLOG WE HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF OBJECTIVITY. ANY PERSON ENGAGED IN ANY ACTIVITY AT A HIGH LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN ADVANTAGES TO BEING IN THE MOMENT IN THE THICK OF THINGS, AND CERTAIN OTHER ADVANTAGES TO BEING ABOVE THE FRAY AND BEING ABLE TO LOOK AT THINGS WITHOUT THE PRESSURE OF ACTION IN THE MOMENT. ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT BEING A FAN OF BILL SELF IS THAT HE HAS SUCH GREAT CONFIDENCE IN HIS ABILITIES AND SUCH CLARITY OF PURPOSE THAT HE IS WILLING TO TALK AFTER THE FACT ABOUT SITUATIONS (SOMETIMES AFTER THE GAME, SOME TIMES DAYS AFTER THE GAME, SOMETIMES WEEKS, SOMETIMES MONTHS, AND SOMETIMES THE FOLLOWING SEASON, ABOUT WHAT THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE BETTER. I REALLY THINK SELF IS MORE PRONE TO REVEAL THESE KINDS OF REVISIONS IN HIS THINKING THAN MANY OTHER COACHES AND IT IS THE SIGN OF A BRILLIANT AND SUPREMELY CONFIDENT MIND BENT ON GETTING BETTER. THERE ARE MISTAKES HE WON’T ADMIT, BECAUSE ADMITTING THEM WON’T MAKE HIM, OR HIS TEAM BETTER AT THE TIME, IN HIS ESTIMATION, OR IT COULD JEOPARDIZE HIS AUTHORITY, OR BECAUSE HE JUST DOESN’T HAVE A FIX FOR IT YET. BUT HE CAN BE REMARKABLY CANDID AND PROFOUND IN HIS REMARKS AT TIMES AND OFTEN THESE REMARKS TAKE DAYS, OR WEEKS, OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE HERE TO RECOGNIZE THEIR SIGNIFICANCE. FRANKLY, SELF IS SO GOOD THAT I NEVER TRY TO CATCH HIS MISTAKES. I DEVOTE MYSELF TO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT AND THEN UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS DOING. I HAVE LEARNED MORE BASKETBALL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT AND UNDERSTAND WHAT BILL SELF DOES THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER WAY IN ALL MY YEARS OF WATCHING THE GAME. HE IS COACHING AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL, EVEN RELATIVE TO MOST OTHER D1 COACHES. FANS THAT TRY TO PLAY GOTCHA WITH BILL SELF ARE REALLY MISSING THE EDUCATION OF A LIFE TIME. FIRST OF ALL, HE DOESN’T MAKE MANY MISTAKES. SECOND, IF YOU FOCUS ON HIS MISTAKES YOU ARE GOING TO MISS ALL THESE OPPORTUNITIES TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL HE IS REALLY UP TO MOST OF THE TIME. I FIND HIS MISTAKE ONLY INCIDENTALLY TO LOOKING AT ALL THE GOOD STUFF HE IS DOING AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW HE DOES IT AND WHAT THE RATIONALE IS, IF ANY DRIVING HIS CHOICES.
Does anyone know this roster of players better than Bill Self does? Yes or no? EMPHATICALLY NO. BUT WE ARE ALL PRISONERS OF OUR EXPERIENCE AND OUR ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT HOW TO PLAY THE GAME, WHEN VIEWING OPTIONS OF OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE SCHEMES, OPTIONS OF STRATEGY AND TACTICS, AND OPTIONS OF ABILITIES. I NEVER FIND THAT BILL SELF MISJUDGES THE ABILITY (OR LACK THEREOF) OF A PLAYER TO PERFORM A NEEDED ROLE IN HIS BRAND OF BASKETBALL, ONCE HE HAS THEM ON THE TEAM. HE GUESSES WRONG ON RECRUITING VERY OCCASIONALLY, BUT THEN HOW COULD ONE NOT. BUT SELF IS VERY PURPOSEFUL AND SENSIBLE AND FOR THE MOST PART DOES NOT TALK MUCH ABOUT WHAT HIS PLAYERS MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO FOR ANOTHER TEAM, OR ANOTHER COACH, OR ANOTHER SYSTEM. HIS FOCUS IS WINNING HERE AND NOW WITH THE PLAYERS ON THIS ROSTER THIS SEASON UNDER THE SCHEME AND STRATEGY HE HAS SELECTED. IN CONTRAST, OFTEN, WHEN MANY HERE EXPLORE A PLAYER’S ABILITIES AND PERFORMANCE, THEY ARE VIEWING THE PLAYER NOT THROUGH SELF’S LENS, BUT THROUGH THE LENS OF OTHER APPROACHES TO SCHEME AND STRATEGY. BOARD RATS OFTEN DON’T SAY SO, BUT WHAT THEY ARE REALLY OFTEN WRITING IS: THIS PLAYER COULD DO SO MUCH MORE THAN HE IS BEING ALLOWED TO DO…IF SELF ADOPTED A DIFFERENT SCHEME AND STRATEGY. THAT PLAYER WOULD DEVELOP MUCH FASTER… IF SELF ADOPTED A DIFFERENT SCHEME AND STRATEGY THAT MADE BETTER USE OF THAT PLAYER’S TALENTS AND SKILLS. @HighEliteMajor AND I CLEARLY AGREE ON A LOT OF ISSUES ABOUT BASKETBALL, BUT HE FREQUENTLY ANALYZES PLAYERS IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH MORE SELF COULD GET OUT OF THEM ANOTHER WAY; I.E., UNDER ANOTHER SCHEME AND STRATEGY. @HighEliteMajor DOESN’T DISPUTE THAT SELF HAS A SOLID GRASP OF WHAT WORKS. HE ARGUES THAT SELF STICKS TOO CLOSELY WITH HIS SCHEME AND STRATEGY TO OFTEN WHEN THE TALENTS OF HIS PLAYERS SUGGEST GOING TO ANOTHER SCHEME AND STRATEGY. I THINK IT IS A VALID ARGUMENT AND ONE THAT REVEALS A LOT TO BOARD RATS ABOUT WHAT ELSE MIGHT BE FEASIBLE. AT THE SAME TIME, I OFTEN DISAGREE WITH @HighEliteMajor THAT DIVERGING FROM SELF’S SELECTED COURSE OF ACTION WOULD YIELD SOMETHING NET BETTER. I FIND THAT WHEN I DRILL DOWN INTO WHAT SELF IS DOING, ESPECIALLY AT TIMES THAT IT SEEMS MOST COUNTER INTUITIVE, THAT I COME TO AGREE WITH SELF’S CHOSEN COURSE OF ACTION. I BELIEVED HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION WHEN HE OPTED FOR BAD BALL ONCE I UNDERSTOOD IT. @HighEliteMajor DECIDED IT WAS A TERRIBLE CHOICE. BUT HERE’S THE THING: I AM HERE TO LEARN AND I LEARNED A GREAT DEAL NOT ONLY FROM DRILLING DOWN INTO SELF’S BAD BALL, BUT ALSO A TON FROM @HighEliteMajor’s SOUNDLY ARGUED ANALYSIS THROUGH A DIFFERENT LENS. I DECIDED THAT @HighEliteMajor FOUND AN ALTERNATIVE PATH THAT MIGHT HAVE WORKED AND SO MIGHT BE WORTH RETAINING IT FOR FUTURE CIRCUMSTANCES, EVEN THOUGH I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT SELF’S ANGLE WAS NOT ONLY BRILLIANT , BUT BETTER. IF @HighEliteMajor HAD NOT CHALLENGED BILL SELF’S DECISION MAKING AS RIGOROUSLY AS HE DID, I WOULD NEVER HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT BILL SELF WAS DOING IN THE GRATIFYING DEPTH (AT LEAST TO ME) THAT I REACHED. THIS IS THE GREAT SYNERGY ENABLED BY SPIRITED PUBLIC DISCOURSE. IT GOES A LARGE STEP BEYOND WHAT EVEN COACH SELF–THE GREAT BASKETBALL GENIUS THAT HE IS–CAN REVEAL AND TEACH BY EXAMPLE.
Does anyone know what players need to be recruited and signed for this KU team better than coach Self does? Yes or no? EMPHATICALLY NOT. BUT ONLY THROUGH THE LENS THAT COACH SELF VIEWS THE GAME. THROUGH OTHER LENS, EITHER THOSE OF KNOWLEDGEABLE BOARD RATS, OR THOSE BELONGING TO OTHER GREAT COACHING MINDS OF THE GAME TODAY THAT BOARD RATS HERE CAN ACCESS OVER THE NET THE SAME WAY THEY ACCESS COACH SELF (I.,E., REMOTELY) SOMEONE ELSE MAY WELL COME UP WITH A VALID ALTERNATIVE ANGLE ON RECRUITS THAT WILL IN THE PROCESS ILLUMINATE EVEN MORE WHY COACH SELF IS PURSUING WHO HE IS PURSUING.
If anyone can answer yes to any of those questions please step out of your shadows and reveal what great coach you are. Prove it to the masses you are as great as you say you are? What’s you wing percentage? Where? What level?
TO ME TO DEMONSTRATE THAT NO FAN IS AS GOOD AT COACHING, AND THE ASPECTS OF COACHING, AS A COACH SELF LIKE SELF THAT HAS SPENT A CAREER LEARNING TO COACH AND WHO IS PAID $3-5-10MILLION PER YEAR FROM VARIED SOURCES IS KIND OF A TAUTOLOGY; I.E., A SELF-REINFORCING PRETENSE OF SIGNIFICANT TRUTH THAT IS QUITE BESIDE THE POINT OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE ABOUT THE TOPIC OF KU BASKETBALL. I HAVE NEVER READ A SINGLE BOARD RAT ON KUBUCKETS CLAIM TO BE SMARTER, BETTER, OR TO HAVE A HIGHER BASKETBALL IQ, OR TO BE A BETTER RECRUITER, OR A BETTER JUDGE OF TALENT, OR BETTER BENCH COACH, THAN COACH SELF…EVER. SO THE REAL QUESTION IS THIS: WHY DO YOU POSE SUCH A STRAW QUESTION? WHAT IS IT YOU ARE REALLY TRYING TO ASSERT IN THE FORM OF A STRAW ARGUMENT/QUESTION THAT HINGES ON A PREMISE THAT DOES NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE EXIST?
SO: HAVING TRIED TO RESPECTFULLY AND GENUINELY TRIED TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ONE BY ONE, I WILL NOW ASK YOU: WHY DO YOU POSE THIS STRAW QUESTION?
WHO EXACTLY IS IN THE SHADOWS CLAIMING TO BE SMARTER, ETC., THAT COACH BILL SELF?
NOT ME.
I CALL SELF THE GENIUS.
AND I MEAN IT.
AND I DON’T CALL MYSELF ONE, NOR DO I VIEW MYSELF AS ONE.
I don’t think so. I believe he is pretty much in awe of WHAT SELF has accomplished AT KU, and HE APPEARS TO respect the soundness of the Self approach, despite his opinion that Self CAN GET TOO INFLEXIBLE IN ADHERENCE TO THE APPROACH.
@drgnslayr? NOT SLAYR. HE SEEMS TO THINK SELF IS AN AWESOME COACH THAT COULD GET BETTER BY STUDYING HOW THE NBA COACHES ENCOURAGE MORE FREE LANCING AND CREATIVITY.
@REHawk? WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE REST OF US, THE COACH PROBABLY KNOWS MORE BASKETBALL IN ONE OF HIS EYE LASHES THAN THE REST OF US COMBINED, BUT HE CONSTANTLY MARVELS AT WHAT THE EDMOND KID KEEPS PULLING OFF, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS THE USUAL SUCCINCT JUDGEMENTS COACHES THAT HAVE HAD TO MAKE A LIVING MAKING SUCH JUDGEMENTS ARE FAMOUS FOR.
I HAVE GONE DOWN THE LIST OF EVERY ALIAS THAT PUBLISHES FREQUENTLY HERE BEYOND THE SHORT LIST ABOVE, AT LEAST THAT I CAN RECALL.
I CAN’T THINK OF ANY FREQUENT POSTERS THAT ARGUE THEY KNOW MORE THAN SELF, OR HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE, WOULD BE BETTER D1 HEAD COACHES AT KU.
WHO ARE THESE POSTERS IN THE SHADOWS?
IF THEY EXIST, TELL US WHO THEY ARE?
I FOR ONE WILL WRITE A POST IMMEDIATELY AND POKE FUN AT THE IDEA THAT SUCH AN ALIAS KNOWS MORE AND WOULD BE A BETTER HEAD COACH THAN BILL SELF.
AND I WILL BE AMIABLE DOING IT.
SERIOUSLY, I DON’T RECALL READING ANY OF THOSE KINDS OF POSTS HERE, OR EVEN AT THE OLD SITE, EXCEPT FOR THOSE POSTED BY SITE DESTABILIZERS, OFTEN APPEARING TO BE LURKERS FROM FIZZOU, KSU, MEMPHIS AND UK. AND WE CAN’T BOTHER OURSELVES OVER THOSE TYPES.
P.S.: Here is an example of why public discourse is so helpful, even when it cannot necessarily answer a question in short order. @HighEliteMajor has grappled with with understanding Jamari Traylor’s performance about as much as any of us. Unlike me, HEM drilled to Traylor’s stats and went to some lengths to try to understand why Self kept playing him. I had opinions. Everyone else had opinions. Pro Journo Jesse Newell even weighed in with the jump ball stat that Landon Lucas and Jamari excelled at. But in the end, HEM pulled out the decisive stat–the anemic rebounds per minute stat, or something related to that. The guy does not get enough rebounds to sneeze at. After all the Ken Pom-ing and all the opining and all the human interest angles, and all the energy angles, and all the exploding out of position angles, and after he learned to put it on the deck, and got a rudimentary J, still the bottomline questions is: how can Self afford to play a big man that gets so few rebounds per minute played?
NO ONE CAN ANSWER THAT YET.
NOT ME, NOT YOU, NOT ANYONE.
NOT EVEN SELF CAN ANSWER THAT YET.
AT LEAST HE HAS CHOSEN NOT TO ADDRESS IT.
If one lets go of the frustration, this single statistic of @HighEliteMajor’s points us to something very, very, VERY important about Bill Self.
He is a coach that bets players with great physical ability can eventually learn to do a task that is consistent with that sort of physical ability, if Self can find a way to give that player enough time in the context of the team’s need for success.
Self is a coach that decides some players just can’t get it this season in time for the good of the team.
But the most important thing is this: Self is a coach that bets on great physical ability learning how…and then finding a way.
Its true that Self picked Traylor off a high school team shortly after Traylor had been homeless.
But it was really Traylor’s high school coach (or was it his AAU coach) that saved Traylor from the streets; that got him back under a roof. Not Bill Self.
Bill Self is the coach that saw a ton of athleticism, explosive jumping, lots of muscles, and said that if I can coach this guy up, I can have a player with just the kind of MUA I need in my big man rotation. I need a guy who can go small when the opponent goes small on my long big men, and yet have the kind of explosive physicality to dominate the little guys the opponents bring into the game to trip up my long bigs.
Self sees in Traylor a small big that could help Self play it any way they want.
Self apparently saw in Traylor a guy who COULD learn to put it on the deck, who COULD learn to shoot the J. And Self apparently believed sooner or later the athletic Traylor could “get it” regarding rebounding. He could “get the knack.”
We have three years behind us and one to go with Traylor.
Traylor can score a little, and a little scoring is apparently how Self defines the role.
But its the damned rebounding knack that Traylor can’t quite get.
And yet…
Self sees the athleticism in practice. He sees him explode out of position in games. He sees him play through injuries.
Self is betting on the longest shot there is in basketball; that a guy without the knack for rebounding can “get it.”
Its who Self is.
He is, as @drgnslayr likes to say, a riverboat gambler.
When he views a hand as a potential big winner, he will pretty much take any risk.
Self would rather bet on the long shot that Traylor will learn to “get it” on the glass, than bet on anyone else bigger, or longer, being able to cover the small bigs that are thrown at us.
He is waiting on Traylor the same way he waited on Tyshawn Taylor.
To the rest of us, having a small big to rotate doesn’t seem that big of a deal.
But to Mr. Play It Anyway They Want, well, a small big that can do it all is worth a whole lot!!!
Were it not for all the debate over this topic of Traylor’s virtues and vices, I don’t think I would have ever seen Bill Self’ mission as clearly. And the debate wasn’t enough. It came down to one rock hard stat–rebounds per minute–set down and reasserted by @HighEliteMajor it repeatedly until persons just couldn’t escape it anymore.
And when one is confronted with the truth, one has to fit it into the mosaic, if one wants to learn.
This is what Gandhi understood.
@HighEliteMajor got beyond giving us a choice.
He gave us a fact that won’t go away.
It forces us to explain it.
Not rationalize it.
But explain it.
I don’t know how this gamble of Self’s with Traylor will play out.
But if this team learns how to rebound small, it is a huge step closer to playing it any way they want and doing so.
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First, I value @JRyman’s takes on basketball and coaching here very much.
Second, I don’t recall any aliases that think they know more than Coach Self in any global sense.
Third, I’m glad you spoke up and addressed how much is learned here in our public discourse.
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@JRyman I think you have concluded this discussion quite nicely, quite appropriately and in a fashion that is befitting of how you started it.
It was “rewatch”. Try it. Turn off the sound. Watch each possession closely. I have found that I learn a tremendous amount about the game, and what Bill Self is trying to do. Doing so, quite frankly, reinforces why I agree with him 90% of the time. I rewatch the games early in the morning before going to work (usually). It literally doubles my enjoyment of KU basketball. I rewatched the same way a few Duke games, some Gonzaga, Notre Dame and late in the season (when I realized MSU’s three point attempts), the Spartans. It has the effect of changing your perspective.
@Texas-Hawk-10 You are exactly right. There may be circumstantial evidence that supports Traylor. The best circumstantial evidence is that Self plays him. I’m interested in more. And the +/- you refer to is an excellent stat, and one that could (nearly) definitely 1) put a nail in the coffin of the intangibles, " he makes others better", argument, or 2) cause those questioning his value to rethink the whole darned thing.
However, I can’t locate the stat – I’m trying to find it. The site I used to jump on to find it is shut down now. I’m looking …
Last season, for a five game stretch I kept track of it on Traylor and Selden, the two guys that have had the worst PER on the team (Player Efficiency Rating). Both were negative, but Selden was more negative in the five game stretch – meaning whether we gained or lost on our opponent when they were in the game. But a five game stretch in that context, I think, isn’t of great value to be honest. And it has to be viewed against other players too – that’s important.
@jaybate-1.0 You nailed it. Well thought out.
The preseason opener is this week – time for basketball.
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@HighEliteMajor guess it would have been to much to expect an apology from you to end it all, from your personal attacks to end it.
And it was “rematch” S to what you typed and I quoted you as saying. You may have meant to say “rewatch” but I can’t assume anything when it comes to your ramblings and defenitive answers.
I went back I when I started my post/thread I never said anything about anyone specific. It was as a general statement. You took it personal from there. Not once. But more and when you couldn’t get me to drop you did I again.
Your true colors have really shown the last couple of days to the person you really are.
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@JRyman “DROP-IT” … Put it behind YOU and MOVE ON!!!
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@Red.Rooster said:
@JRyman “DROP-IT” … Put it behind YOU and MOVE ON!!!
Why just me? Why not both sides?
Why can’t I voice my opinion and carry a torch for my beliefs? Over and over and over again?
Am I beating a dead horse?
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@JRyman yep! It’s a dead horse! Doesn’t work both ways on here.
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@HighEliteMajor I didn’t figure you’d be able to find that stat since you’ve never cited it before, but thought I’d ask about it. I’ve always used Fox Sports to get advanced stats. I’m not sure how far back they go, but it’s a really good source for those numbers and in no danger of being shut down.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@JRyman yep! It’s a dead horse! Doesn’t work both ways on here.
Well the in the words of John McClain “Yippie-ki-yay”
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Next Play!
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Maybe Jesse has the stats from last year. It’s something the staff should already have at their disposal.
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@BeddieKU23 @Texas-Hawk-10 I sent a DM to Jesse Newell yesterday morning and he responded and said the site was “group stats” – I was interested in the same thing. But that it is now a pay site. I plugged in my old computer and I have a link to an old group stats site that is shut down, so that must have been it. It has a link to the new site.
The price on the new group stats site is really made for teams, not individuals – here’s the link.
It does have a free sample of Kansas in the 2013-14 season.
A review of Traylor’s +/- from that season is .17 while out of the game and only .05 while in the game. That appears to be the worst difference among the regulars.
What is really interesting is that Connor Frankamp had clearly the best ratio difference – .10 when he was out vs. .26 when he was in. Of the Kansas regulars, Tharpe, Greene and Selden all had numbers that showed Kansas was better when they (individually) were out… Wiggins’ ratio was very good. So was Tarik Black’s
On Traylor, while we don’t know what the last season brought in comparison, it’s not too big of a leap to assume it was even worse for Traylor, given that his points per minute and his rebounds per minute went down from 2013-14 to 2014-15. I can’t imagine that 2014-15 +/- would not have rendered the same result – that he was our worst rotation player on the +/-.
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I would assume Traylor didn’t have a good ± ratio. Between his turnovers, low rebounding rates, & low scoring totals, its hard to believe they were better than the previous year. I would have been interested in Svi’s, Oubre’s, & Cliff’s stats from last year.
A tool like this could be very helpful to Self. Certainly not saying its the best model but it can be helpful in figuring out who’s doing better at a given time. Sometimes film isn’t going to show you that, especially over the course of 1 game or over the course of the season.
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One thing I would note, when it comes to evaluating players, numbers don’t always tell the whole story (especially basic stats, like ppg, rpg, even rebounds/minute). This is more true in certain sports than in others, and I think for basketball this is more true than, say, baseball. Arguments over any individual player’s worth remind me of the Ewing Theory: an analysis of Patrick Ewing’s career with the Knicks that looked at the team’s performance with Ewing on the court vs. off the court. In short, the Knicks actually tended to perform better with Ewing off the court than with him on. Ewing had superstar individual stats on both ends of the floor, and is still known as one of the greatest centers of all time. But the team’s performance with him in the game did not reflect this. This has been observed with other big-stat players (Carmelo with the Nuggets comes to mind), and small-stat players have shown to have the reverse effect. There are countless possibilities as to why this was the case, but the overall takeaway is that basketball is a team sport. The team’s success is based on their total ability to work together to perform better than the opposing team. Just because a player’s individual stats are inferior to another’s does not mean that the other player should be absorbing their minutes.
When it comes to Traylor, this will probably be up for debate for the remainder of his college bball career. And I’m not saying I don’t think other most players deserve to have his minutes; I actually tend to agree with HEM on this. But I think it does broaden the discussion of which players deserve to play more. There are advanced stats that we can use to help with this (+/- is a good start), so it’s not entirely voodoo. But there are other factors that can’t be measured as easily that play a roll in the overall effectiveness of the team (contagious grit, leadership, communication, twin psychic powers, etc.). And when it comes to team chemistry and leadership, Coach Self does have unmatched insider knowledge.
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Enjoyed reading about your small town coffee shop experiences.
Chat forums definitely have a different dynamic over face-to-face.
In some ways, I think this form is more honest. In face-to-face conversations people tend to be a bit defensive so they won’t share a lot of their real thoughts.
That doesn’t seem like a problem here.
Since people aren’t really used to sharing their real thoughts, I think they are a bit out of practice for keeping it polished and not hurting others’ feelings.
I used to be a lot more open in face-to-face conversation until things have gone so tightly on being politically correct that I feel uncomfortable to talk about anything where I might set someone off.
BTW: If I have ticked off anyone in here… I apologize.
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I wouldn’t trade Self for any other coach… from D1 to the NBA!
I would like to see him try a few more things because I fear we might grow stagnant in our results. I think all coaches, including the best, have to adjust to the times. The game is changing constantly… players are different… skills are changing… game rules changing… nothing stays the same.
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I would point to guys like Kevin Young, Brady Morningstar among others as I read your post. They were integral parts of the lineup for reasons that didn’t always involve a stat that was written down. So I agree in that regard.
How do we take Self’s comments about Mari playing the best basketball of his career in the past few weeks?
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How do we take Self’s comments about Mari playing the best basketball of his career in the past few weeks?
You asked @HighEliteMajor but I’ll chime in.
Self said Mari is playing the best basketball of his career, and he also said fans will think Mickelson is the most improved player.
I put those two together and read “No matter how much you want me to play Hunter over Mari, I’m playing Mari, so just get over it.”
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" I went through – took the time – and calculated the rebound rate of every Kansas post player per minute played."
You’ve got “COACH” written all over you!
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@JRyman I used to be you two years ago. HEM is a joy to read. I really think that his basketball acumen is spot on. At first read, it seems he is attacking Jamari, but it has never been Jamari, it has always been Self and Self’s inability to not want to lose a game. If a “Can’t Miss Stud” goes back to the bench for a lack of energy, Jamari has always been the standard for the type of energy that Bill wants on the court. Jamari has been here 5 years and still he does not possess the basketball ability of others on this team with his height. The argument then from the anti Jamari’s is that these younger studs need to stay on the court and Bill should sometimes lose to give the Skippy’s time to play through their lack of understanding of what Bill wants. It is a conundrum and one that is always being argued about. This has been going on for a long time on this site and everyone knows I’m mostly always on the side of Bill Self. I agree that HEM is right about Jamari, but wrong about our Coach. Mostly, I just post pictures of what Jamari does for our team.
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Just to add to the discussion … would be shocked if Jamari didn’t start Wednesday. Self wouldn’t tip his hand on the big men, but he seems pleased with Jamari this year like every other.
As far as Traylor’s rebounding goes, I’ wrote about it here last year.
One final thing: The LJW’s Tom Keegan asked Self specifically about Traylor playing despite his poor rebounding numbers yesterday. Here’s the transcript:
Q. You had a lot of big guys, where can Traylor get on the floor, he hasn’t been a great rebounder, he’s not a naturally great scorer. Is it being disruptive?
BILL SELF: I think so. Just energy. Jamari has actually played better than he’s played at any point in time in his career or the last two weeks, so I don’t know who will start tomorrow night, but he certainly would be a guy that deserves to start as much as anybody else right now, but that doesn’t mean we’ll start him, just because we want to look at different combinations. We already know how he and Perry can play together, we may want to look at some different stuff. Not tomorrow night, Wednesday night.
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This post is deleted!
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@Jesse-Newell I wouldn’t be shocked, either … that’s what Self does. Your link provides good info – the Traylor discussion is really a subjective one. There is no “objective” that anyone can find support in. I found press conference response by Self interesting. I watched it yesterday on the TWC sports channel. Self’s “just energy” response, I thought, was odd – my first thought was, “really, ‘just energy’?” Then I thought about and came to the unfortunate conclusion that, really, it is just energy.
Self said before the WUG (around the exhibitions) the following - “What keys spurts is energy. and Jamari can sometimes do that and Hunter is capable of being an energy guy. Some guys aren’t capable of that, but Hunter certainly can.”
But if a player like Traylor does not create more points when he’s in the game – if the team’s +/- is worse when he’s in the game, don’t stats prove that Self’s assumption is incorrect? Sure, Self qualified that with “sometimes” – which I’m sure is true. But the point is the same. If a guy is a net negative, he’s a net negative. That means the highs are outweighed by the lows.
And it doesn’t really take stats to tell us that anyway, right?
Let’s hope the guy has a good year. The Jamari Traylor death watch, so to speak, is a difficult one.
@drgnslayr Thanks. I know some here don’t like stats too much. But stats lead you to the right questions, in my opinion. It allows you to analyze without letting your heart make your decisions for you.
But another point is Mickelson. The quote above talks about Mickelson, too. Self has commented multiple times on Hunter’s energy. This is from the Exhibition time frame, leading up to the WUG:
“I think tonight for the first time in a while, I thought he played to his athletic ability,” Self added. “He made a couple of great blocks. He scored with his left, which we’ve been trying to get him to do a lot. Then of course, he showed a lot of bounce, too. He was just playing with energy.”
Self said last season that when Mickelson got to play against West Virginia, he “busted his butt.”
“You can really tell somebody that’s valuable to a team if they’re an energy-giver. I do think that we have some guys, and every team does, that try real hard that really aren’t energy-givers. But guys that are real energy-givers, it’s amazing, just everybody seems to be loud and on their feet when they’re around, and I think Hunter is learning how to do that.”
There may be hope.
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@Statmachine #5 by committee.
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Let’s put things into perspective.
These first games are just advanced scrimmages in front of a crowd.
Self does what most coaches do… use every situation to help motivate the players he needs to motivate the most. Self currently feels like other post players could use more of a kick in the pants than Jamari, so Jamari will start.
This has zero reflection on who will start in B12 play and beyond.
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@drgnslayr I don’t think it’s a kick in the pants if Jamari starts tomorrow. When there’s been position battles going on, Self has historically started the person who’s looked the best in practice leading up to the game for the two exhibition games.
It sounds like Jamari has had the best week of practice leading up to tomorrow’s game so he’ll likely start on those merits. If Landen Lucas has the best week of practice between the two exhibition games, he’d start the second one.
The Northern Colorado game will be when we all find out if it’s Mickelson or Traylor that really starts next to Ellis.
