It appears the WUG boosted our guys stock this summer!
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@Statmachine PREACH!!
I mean maybe i’m crazy but in Self’s system I just don’t see much of a difference in the 2 or the 3. Maybe a few times going in for offensive rebounds. But other than that I just don’t see a difference. B Mac is a great example of what a 2 can do in Self’s system. And, like you said, you just saw the light turn on for Selden during the tourney. It wasn’t that he was playing the “3.” He didn’t drop 20 point games because he made that move. He didn’t finish around the basket better because of some allocated number on his position. He did it because he was aggressive, while still letting the game come to him. He can still be aggressive playing the “2.” See Wayne vs Florida. It can be done folks.
I guess my other thoughts are this:
Devonte very may well start and be better than Svi. But, Devonte doesn’t provide a favorable mismatch in my eyes. Svi has the obvious size advantage, and thus creates mismatches we wouldn’t have with Devonte. On top of that, everyone can tell Svi has the “it” factor that Devonte doesn’t have. I can’t envision Graham going off for 25 points at all this season. Svi seems to have that ability. If he puts an early 3 in, **look out! **Then you don’t just have a mismatch. You would have a matchup nightmare. Who guards Svi? Who guards Wayne? Oh wait, Frank just drove in and made a layup again because we can’t help off of anyone right now.
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@Statmachine You’re forgetting how poorly Wayne takes care of the ball, which is why they moved Wayne to the 3 in the first place. We all watched the WUGS. We all saw what happened to Wayne’s game once they moved him to the 3. Wayne isn’t very good handling the ball, which is why Devonte will play the 2.
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@KUSTEVE So moving Selden to the 3 had nothing to do with not having a true 3 to take with us to the WUG?
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How many times have we heard HCBS say Ellis would play some 3 last year? Its the same old broken record. Selden will play the 2 like always. Ellis at the 4 like always.
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@Statmachine I don’t think its relevant. If he didn’t have a 3, why would he ask for two guards from SMU and FGCU if he wasn’t already planning to move Wayne…why not just ask for a 3??? His move to the 3 isn’t temporary - on that, we’ll just have to disagree.
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@KUSTEVE I would be happy to disagree with you.
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I wasn’t expecting Wayne to be moved to the 3 at WUG. I don’t know if it was the move to that spot that helped lift his game, or was it just because he was facing off against athletically inferior opposition?
Who would be our 3 this year if it isn’t Wayne?
Very unlikely to be BG or Svi. They both have the height but neither play aggressive ball like what we need out of a 3. We need someone who can take the ball to the rack and a good rebounder, as well as a respectable 3-pt shooter. The only guys I can think of that fit that definition are Wayne and Perry. Vick might end up playing some 3, but wouldn’t count on his contribution this year.
How many 2s do we currently have? Devonte, BG, Svi, Wayne, Vick… Frank was a 2 in HS and can still play it.
We have to pluck at least one guy from the “2 nest” to move to the 3.
Will it be Wayne? Granted he played against lessor competition sometimes at WUG, but he did show he could be productive at the 3.
Let’s say Devonte heals up quickly. How do you keep Devonte on the bench because Wayne is playing at the 2? That alone makes me think Wayne will move to the 3.
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Here’s a chunk from the KC Star article I cited above:
“We dissected last year’s season a lot,” Self said.
Among the many pressing issues was the matter of Wayne Selden, a sophomore who appeared to possess all the traits of a standout wing at the college level — but who had slid backward during his second season at KU. There had to be a way, KU’s staff surmised, to unlock Selden’s potential. When talks were over, Self says, the staff realized that the answer lay not with Selden, but with two other KU guards: Frank Mason and Devonte’ Graham.
If the Jayhawks could play with Mason and Graham in the backcourt — two smaller guards with point-guard skills — the offense could be more dangerous and creative … and Selden would be free to be himself on the wing.
“I think it’ll just free Wayne up,” said KU assistant coach Kurtis Townsend, who is tasked with working with the guards in practice. “Where he doesn’t have to handle some of the so-called ball handling duties. He’ll just be able to attack the rim and go score and play with more of a free mind.”
Wayne is our starting 3 as we sit here today. The WUG simply re-enforced that. Could something change between now and the start of the season? Sure. But that is where we sit right now. Further up this thread I quoted an additional item from Townsend about the staff liking Mason and Graham together.
Next, Svi is a more natural 2 than Wayne. The ball handling, etc., clearly makes him the clear choice at the 2. But Svi can flex between both spots, the 2 and the 3 if needed. No doubt he can play both (and for that matter, if we had another Mason like player, we could have three PGs on the floor at once, too). And if Graham and Mason are hurt, fouled out, whatever, and neither is on the floor – Svi is our next best (emergency) PG choice (better than Selden or Manning for sure). He handles the ball pretty well, just not PG “well” at this point.
How far have we come? Remember the silly “combo-guard” stuff? I was clearly on record that the combo-guard stuff with Selden was baloney. It still is baloney. It’s just chatter. Wayne Selden is not, and never has been a “combo guard.” He can’t handle the ball adequately enough.
Self said it best last season … an insight I have quoted a few times … when he included Wayne Selden in his comment about his team’s “big wings.” That ain’t a combo guard.
Finally, please read the last sentence of the quote from Townsend … is he taking quotes from our board here?
Wayne as a 3 will " … just be able to attack the rim and go score and play with more of a free mind."
Exactly. And a reminder to all that coach at AFH, this rule applies to shooters too. They are better with a free mind. But I’m sure they already know that. It’s just a matter of how much they care. It shows that as a coach, Townsend understands how much ball handling and additional responsibilities weigh on the minds of players. The more they have to think and deal with, the more that effects their play. It is an important underlying theme that perhaps now, maybe, we can get unanimous acceptance of. It is an undeniable truth. It’s not an opinion.
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@Statmachine No way, I just dont buy that. Selden is breaking out at the 3 spot! Why would Coach move him back to SG and lose production on both ends from him? It doesnt make any sense. Its like a lion eating some hummus.
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Selden’s transition could lead to a couple of things for KU.
First, Selden could have a huge season after being freed from ball handling duties. This may allow him to be one of our top scorers and just go get buckets and be aggressive. However, this may also mean that his NBA stock could fall because he would be very one dimensional offensively if he can’t take on ball handling responsibility. That’s good for KU, because it means Selden is probably a 4 year player, but bad for Wayne personally because he probably won’t ever make it as a pro if that is the case.
At the college level, I believe Wayne can score enough as a wing to justify him not doing much in the way of ball handling. Wayne has shown that he can score 12-15 and sometimes explode for 20+. However, at the pro level, that type of moderate scoring punch won’t be enough for a non-ball handler wing. He would either need to elevate to being an elite wing defender or a more dangerous scorer to have NBA value. Ultimately, that could mean Wayne could end up leading KU through a couple of deep tournament runs over the next couple years, first this year with Perry and then again next year teamed with Bragg.
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I could go dig up where HCBS said Selden can play the 1-3. He is going to transition between the 2-3 all year long. When Graham is at the 1 because Mason is resting he will move to the 2.
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Ball handling is not so taxing on players that it causes them to disappear in games! Wake up people the difference in Selden is his maturity and letting the game come to him.
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“However, this may also mean that his NBA stock could fall because he would be very one dimensional offensively if he can’t take on ball handling responsibility.”
Unfortunately for Wayne, if he stays at the 2 and still can’t handle the ball, it might even make his draft stock plummet further than if he hides it at the 3. NBA scouts are already aware of his handle issues.
The best thing for Wayne to help lift his stock is to polish his ball handling, whether he plays the 2 or the 3.
"Ball handling is not so taxing on players that it causes them to disappear in games! "
Typically, I would agree with that statement. But we need to find out why Wayne was a superstar at the 3 at WUG, and a mediocre D1 2 a few months earlier. The answer will show us where Wayne needs to be. We simply have to structure it so Wayne can continue to play like he did at WUG.
Last year, Wayne was “thinking” too much at the 2. He looked slow, partially because of his weight, but also his moves were slow and over-calculated. Most of his moves and passes were telegraphed.
I believe it was a factor of 3 things why Wayne became Superman in Korea:
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He dropped 10 to 15 lbs. That alone, makes a tremendous impact on a players speed, hops and stamina.
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He moved to the 3. He now goes against guys that are typically a half step slower than the 2s. Easier to drive on, and Wayne has the strength to create his own scoring space. Self and Townsend told him to stop thinking about dribbling and start thinking how to get to the rim.
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WUG isn’t D1. I know the teams were good. But Wayne often played against lessor opponents. Many of those guys did play D1, like at Princeton. Also, even though many of our opponents played many years together here and there, they still weren’t typically as “tight” as a D1 team, that learns to play as a team.
Can Wayne make it happen this year at the 2? Yes… but I am now believing we need him at the 3. He is our only chance at having a really productive 3. We need his rebounds as much as anything. The 3 spot gives him more places to setup on the floor and attack. He can be anywhere from baseline to top of the key. We now see how offensively potent he can be, and we need to make sure and keep him going like he is now.
We still may end up having problems scoring points this year. We shouldn’t. We have so many offensive weapons, but if we fall back in to the hi/lo and we don’t produce in the paint, we will need every point we can get because we will be looking at a season of BAD BALL!
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@drgnslayr You JUST opened the door for a new topic! Was it that Selden was moved to the 3 OR was it that HCBS didn’t draw up plays and trusted his guys to make plays??? That would completely fix Selden’s THINKING too much issues! Could it be the move from the 2 to the 3 OR the fact that HCBS let his guys just play and Selden didn’t have to do a whole lot of thinking? Could be a combination of both OR we might see the same Selden again next year playing the 3? Could also be the weight loss? There are more things to factor than just moving from the 2 to the 3. There was also a lot of talk about HCBS letting the guys play through their mistakes during the WUG. HCBS wasn’t red in the face and screaming every time someone turned the ball over. That could factor into how Selden played. Maybe he was more relaxed? Look at how many shots Selden took in the final game? No one player EVER takes that many shots during the regular season especially when they are missing as much as he was.
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Ball handling is taxing. Offensively, ball handling is probably the most taxing responsibility. With the ball in your hands, you cannot take a break - ever. You don’t get to relax. You don’t get to hang out on the weak side and be a decoy. You can’t put your hands on your knees and let your mind drift. You get zero rest on the ball.
That’s why I monitor PG minutes when a guy is his team’s only real ball handler. Those minutes are a huge grind and add up. That’s why I worried about Frank wearing down as the season went on (and he did, along with getting banged up).
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I feel like I am in a argument at my in-laws where everyone jumps in my Wife’s corner. I have a lot of very valid points that could all be contributing factors in Selden’s summer transformation! Weight loss, not using a play book (thinking), HCBS not red in the face chewing on players, maturity, letting the game come to him, and last but not least changing positions. Everyone is so focused on the changing of positions that they are dismissing all other factors. HCBS will sniff it out and come November I could be right or all of you could be right? Until then I will stand firmly on my position in this matter.
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Interesting post.
Yeah… we weren’t successful with the hi/lo at WUG. There were times you could see Self trying to beat that round peg in the square hole and it just didn’t fly. Our best low post scorer was Hunter, and he often got his off the rebound or even around the FT line. We just don’t have back to the basket players. Maybe Cheick can help some… but does it make sense to base our entire offense on sets that focus on players finishing that are not good at finishing in this capacity?
Another thing… they were playing in front of small crowds, mostly foreign and zero knowledge of Jayhawk basketball (for the most part). So there wasn’t any pressure applied from the venue. Wayne was cut loose in a low pressure environment.
I’m going to start a thread on this…
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@Statmachine Yikes, that means that we’re wrong and you’re right, because your wife can’t be right!
I do respectfully disagree with you on Wayne’s positioning. Sure, I could see him slide to the 2 every so often. It could be for stretches. If Self sees that Svi is better at the 3 and Selden the 2 when they are in, sure. But Self saying Selden can play the 1-3 is much different than it being part of our game plan. Self said Releford could play the point, too. Selden can play the 1 if Self puts him there. He has to because he is placed there. It will happen every so often. But that is not really the issue. It happened in the WUG just based on some personnel. Selden will absolutely, positively not be a “1” on this team unless we have a catastrophe with injuries or suspensions.
So no doubt, Selden could play a bunch at the 2. As we sit here today, he’s the 3. Fluid.
The more important point, though, is I think the misconception on this ball handling thing. Ask yourself this, is it more stressful for you to do something over and over that you are good at? Or is it more stressful to have pressure on you to do something you are not good at?
What is a more stressful event one could imagine in sports than having the ball in your hands, coming into the front court, with some athletic freak, with quick hands, long arms, guarding you, in your face, as you then have to initiate the offense by delivering a pass to the wing, on target, with a defender in deny position? And in front of 16,000 friends or foes? Eeesh.
Wayne played the 2, and didn’t face that a lot. I do agree. It is not so significant that it would cause one to disappear as Selden did.
Also, and don’t forget, that the 2 has “back” responsibility. Meaning, either the 1 or the 2 has to get back on defense every possession. Further, the 2 likely has “reset” responsibility with the offense, where the 3 does not. The 3 has a number of set plays for him.
Wayne is not a good ball handler. It is quite easy to understand why that lack of responsibility could “free (his) mind” to play better. But a combo of factors makes sense.
You make an outstanding point about Self screaming at them, and other possible answers. It would be silly for us to point to one and only one thing at this point, and @drgnslayr makes good points too. But I do think it to be reasonable to believe that a large part of Wayne’s positive performance at the WUG was related to the position change.
Fair?
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@Statmachine said:
Ball handling is not so taxing on players that it causes them to disappear in games!
Depends on what you mean by taxing. If you’re referring to it being physically taxing, I agree. Playing in the paint is much more physically taxing than playing PG.
If you’re talking about mentally taxing, I strongly disagree. Having to read the defense, call out plays, and constantly make decisions all while trying to keep the ball from being stolen, that is mentally draining on a player and we saw that with Mason last year. It is much easier mentally to just react and follow orders.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 what about a pg vs a press, say wv?
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@Statmachine Believe me I’m on your side. Resetting the offense shouldn’t be SO taxing that Wayne becomes a no-sho. And it isn’t like we are expecting him to break the press for an entire game. Teams like WV and Shaka’s Havoc are going to make us play a lot of Devonte and Frank together for ball security purposes. That is just good sense. But, all the other teams that don’t put that kind of ball pressure shouldn’t even have him batting an eye. Hell, him resetting a play this season might just mean a 1-4 iso drive scenario that we weren’t comfortable letting him do last season.
Also, many of you bring up that Selden needs to play the 2 to increase his draft stock. I would agree with that statement. Self would too. Self also knows that he has to get players to the NBA in order to recruit these so called “stacks.” So, it is in Selden’s, Self’s and the Program’s long-term interest to have Selden playing a lot of 2. And doing it well.
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@Kcmatt7 Thanks! I am really taking a verbal beat down today!
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@Kcmatt7 Two questions for you:
First, tell me who had the more mentally challenging job and more responsibility, Chalmers or Brandon Rush? Taylor or Henry? EJ or Releford? Selden or Wiggins? Selden or Oubre?
Second, do you discount Townsend’s “free mind” comment – related to the 2 and the 3 – given his understanding of roles and responsibilities in Kansas’ scheme?
When the ball is brought up the court, every time there is even nominal pressure, the 2 guard is always involved. Always. It’s not just the press.
I have no idea why folks are so quick to discount the “free mind” thing. It is a big part of a puzzle that could have many components.
@Statmachine made a great point about Self not red-faced and screaming at them at the WUG. That’s a part of the puzzle. So are the other things mentioned by @drgnslayr and others.
I"ve spent a lot of type space trying to convince folks that shooters shoot better with a free mind, and that if you have a coach that gives you more freedom to shoot (without constant limits and conditions – which cause the athlete to wonder if he’s doing the right thing), you will be a much better shooter mentally. You won’t “think”, you’ll just “shoot” – that creates better results in an athlete.
This same concept applies when you have a position that has less responsibility (the 3 vs. the 2). It’s part of the puzzle.
And I will add that the “no show” thing is a given. We all agree, I think. That shouldn’t account for no-show.
But we don’t know Wayne, do we? We don’t know what goes on inside of his head.
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@HighEliteMajor First, You bring all of those up comparisons (because you know the answer already) but you leave out B Mac and Releford? Why? Because B Mac was able to put up 16 points and 5 boards a game? And has a very similar skill set to Selden. Much more comparable than any other single person you brought up. Also, none of those teams had a 6’8 potential lottery pick just chillin.
Second, I am not saying him playing with a “free mind” didn’t contribute to it. I COMPLETELY agree that Self allowing him to play without the worry of sitting on the bench was key. It allowed him to develop and instill some much needed confidence. I’m sure Bill noticed that too.
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@Kcmatt7 You will find it cozy in the KU buckets dog house with me. Its all good though at least we have something to talk about this summer.
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@Kcmatt7 I missed B-Mac because I forgot that … but other 2s have played well too. That wasn’t my point. The point was the responsibilities which you seem to be taking great pains to dismiss.
So why again not Svi at the 2 and Selden at the 3? Not understanding there since you brought him up. Svi’s a better dribbler, right?
See, the nuance here is you won’t acknowledge that the move from 2 to 3 had any impact at all. You acknowledge the “free mind” regarding Self’s hook, but you don’t acknowledge the “free mind” related to position and responsibilities – you know, the one coach Townsend pointed out.
That is patently unreasonable IF I am reading you correctly … maybe I’m not. Sure seems that way. Correct me if I’m wrong.
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Selden will play the 3 spot this year and frank and devonte will most likely be the starting 1 and 2. Self would be crazy to even consider moving Selden back to the 2 spot. Svi will probably sub for Devonte and Wayne, as he can play the 1-3. Just my opinion.
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@HighEliteMajor If we want to talk about Wayne “playing free”, how did him playing with the good ole USA on the front not come up?? He was playing a lot more “free” than most of the other countries players!!
But in all seriousness, I don’t think I am trying to dismiss your responsibilities as much as you are putting too much emphasis on them. We are talking 3 MAYBE 4 times a game resetting the offense or popping out to catch a pass, maybe taking 1 or 2 dribbles, and then immediately passing it back to the PG. Could Svi or Devonte do that? Absolutely!
Did position move have an impact on Wayne? I would be crazy not to say yes. But, I only think a slight one. I believe all of the other reasons offered up so far would have a greater impact than the position switch. (Maturity, Self’s reigns, pecking order, patriotism, etc.)
And I think you and I both know that quotes from coaches have to be taken with a grain of salt…Especially during the offseason.
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Ok, that’s fair … it’s just a matter of degree. Really, we won’t know the answer until the season. If Selden reverts to last year’s ways, we’ll know the position discussion was not an issue.
On coach’s quotes, there are ones that mean something. I know what you’re saying, lots of b.s. sometimes. This one, I think, gives a little insight into the though process – meaning the playing of Graham and Mason together (insight into starters) and the “free mind” thing (insight into responsibilities).
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@Statmachine Nice!! If Selden stays on the wing this season, there should be no reason he can’t continue his WUG production.
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Don’t remember if anyone mentioned it, but Selden got an entry in this week’s Sports Illustrated’s “Faces in the Crowd” for his performance in the WUG.
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I think we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the Wayne situation.
He had a monster set of games in Korea. We should leave it at that.
It might have simply been two things:
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Self telling him to be more aggressive and an alpha.
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He hit a few of his early shots and it gave him confidence that he was able to carry with him throughout the tournament.
I’m good like that.
The mistake we all are going to make is now EXPECT Wayne to do that every game this season. We will put up a wall of pressure on Wayne and it will not help him with his game.
So I"m going to keep my mind right on Wayne, and NOT EXPECT a year ahead to match his WUG performance. I will just remain HOPEFUL!
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@sfbahawk cool! Didn’t know that.
