WHAT IF KU SIGNS THREE OADS?
Two bigs and on perimeter player–will the board rats be happy, or down that Self did not sign 3-5 year players?
Statmachine last edited by
Everyone besides HEM will be happy lol
VailHawk last edited by
This bored rat can argue it both ways!
Statmachine last edited by
We have Traylor, Lucas, Ellis, Mickelson, Graham, Mason, Green, and Svi. No one is really high on ANY of our 4 year players. Lets sign some more players like them and watch the board rats complain about missing on the 5 star guys.
I’ll be happy. Korea would be fun for their development
Lets sign a 5-star 2 so we can have Wayne, Brannen, Svi, Devonte and Frank backing him up!
nuleafjhawk last edited by
Lots of articles have been written about the One and Done travesty (that’s my word) and many have leaned towards the fact that it’s just F-in up college basketball.
I literally don’t remember a lot of the OAD’s that have been here - I do remember Selby, Embiid, Wiggins, now Oubre (sigh…really?) - but have ANY of them made any kind of lasting impact (positive impact) on the University of Kansas? With Wiggins AND Embiid we lost 10 games and bowed out early in the NCAA’s. With Oubre (sigh…really?) we lost 9 games (my apologies, I guess Oubre must be better than Wiggins and Embiid combined…) - and bowed out early in the NCAA’s. Have we won a National Championship as a result of a OAD? You could say we’ve won Conference Championships, but we’ve done that for a WHILE now, with or without them.
So - what if KU signs three OAD’s? I guess we probably lose 15-18 games and hope to make it to the NIT.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
If we sign Diallo to go with Bragg, that’s fine. Not my preference. Diallo shows up in the top 10 of NBA mocks, so he is a presumed OAD.
But right now, we have no choice, right? It’s either Diallo or Thorne. At least with Diallo we have a chance for a 2nd year. Both bad options for this program.
Better option … the option that has passed … is to sign another non-OAD, top 60ish post guy.
Regardless, as long as Traylor, Lucas Mickelson are not in our top three post players, that’s a win. Makes you wonder why they take up scholarships.
On the perimeter, if we sign an OAD, one of our five perimeter players will be gone. Book it. A Selden transfer? Not out of the realm of possibility – “I want to play closer to my family.” Or turning pro. “The D-League puts me in a position to reach my goal.” Even though Greene’s dad said he’s not transferring, that is not a done deal. “I really want to be a starter – or at least the 4th perimeter guy.” Even though Svi says he’s coming back, can we be sure? “Svi want money in Europe.” And it might be hard to fathom a defection by Graham, it does make sense. “I’m not interested in staring at Mason backside for two more seasons.” What about Mason? He’s the only one I think is dead locked in.
Do we want Jaylen Brown if it causes a defection? I don’t. Go somewhere else. UCLA has warmer weather. Try that. I’ll keep our five.
joeloveshawks last edited by
@HighEliteMajor I will keep our perimeter players as well. I honestly hope we don’t sign anyone that is a guard or small forward. The guys we have are up to the task. All of them are either high recruits or have played well above their high school ranking (Mason and Graham).
I would like an OAD post player though if possible. This team is one really good post player away from being something special. If we have to rely almost 100% on Perry again to score in the post it will be a long year and a short March.
stupidmichael last edited by
@Statmachine I feel great about Ellis, Mason, Greene, Graham, and Svi. Less so about Traylor, Lucas, and Mickelson.
Well 1988 we didn’t have this OAD and 2008 Cole Aldrich was ranked #13 but he was stuck behind Kaun, Jackson, Arthur. 2012, we signed McLemore but he had to sit the year. So the answer in No we haven’t won a National Championships as a result.
I’d be shocked honestly if Diallo was a OAD. In 5-6 games I’ve watched of his this year he showed a lot of the things that made him MVP last night. But he’s limited in the post as far as throwing the ball to him and expecting him to score. He gets a lot of points with hustle and effort offensive rebounding, put backs, drop off’s from penetration. Last night was an All-Star game with min. defensive effort but what stood out is that Diallo never stops giving effort. I think the NBA is intrigued by his talent but unless he learns how to score he’s an average sized 4 in the league with limited offensive. I don’t remember many of those being drafted after 1 year.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@BeddieKU23 Now, of course, you are looking at Diallo logically … NBA types project the development curve. Given where he is in the mocks, as in money talks, we do have to assume he is an OAD, right? That item, the money, is all that matters on the OAD merry go round. Self will have to assume he will leave in his recruiting behind him. There is a reasonable chance that Diallo will play well enough to justify the projection.
Anyone see the Oubre Video?
“Thanks for the memories” at the end?
Uh, what memories?
Nice kid, but let’s not pretend this was anything but a one-night stand.
nuleafjhawk last edited by nuleafjhawk
@HighEliteMajor I’m so happy that I’m not the only opponent of the OAD system.
Honestly, I have never met Oubre, I’m sure I would like him as a person, but as a KU basketball player, he means nothing to me. I guarantee that in 5 years, (maybe less) I will have no recollection of him.
@nuleafjhawk Shucks, leaf you have already forgotten Xavier!
nuleafjhawk last edited by nuleafjhawk
@REHawk Holy Smoke - you’re right. Even after I read that, I had to think for a WHILE - " who the &#^ &^ is Xavier ? ".
But - if you mention the name Kirk, Raef, Jerod, Nick - or about 500 others, I will remember those! Hmmm
I am still in a twist over the recruiting of One and Doners. Teams can still move into the Final Four without them, I am pleased to note. Of the 18 mcDs kids playing in the current Final Four, 17 belong to Kentucky and Duke. None, Wisconsin. I’d love to see Wisconsin and Michigan State in the Final. Probably would not put a damper on any school’s recruiting of top 10 talent, but would make some kind of statement. Bill Self must not be sleeping well, trying to survive and advance with such conflicted recruiting decisions to make. His style does not lend itself to OAD. But he appears to feel that he needs them aboard. And he must be promising major minutes.
@nuleafjhawk HA! I feel much the same way as you. Enjoyed the GOTCHA!
The same Mock that has Svi going 12th??
I was looking at him logically because of his limitations on offense at the moment. Recently off the top of my head I don’t remember many bigs going high if they couldn’t score. Especially one that will have just average size at his position in the NBA. Maybe your right, maybe I’m wrong about his projection of at least 2 years in school. Wishful thinking can be a nutcracker
HighEliteMajor last edited by
@nuleafjhawk - Some light reading from last year. Definitely In your camp. Just Say No To OADs At Kansas
@BeddieKU23 I guess I’m just saying that based on the mocks, that we should presume him to be an OAD. So you know, I’m not saying he will be. Just presuming. On Svi, yea, I think he could bolt too after next season. Same reason. We should maybe assume that he’ll be gone after next season.
I would be happy with OAD-type players if we could keep a few of them around for more than a season. Wigs and JoJo… those guys did the right thing. I’m mixed about Kelly leaving. He seems to be really on the fence for making it at the next level. I would hate to see that guy go and end up with an illustrious career in d-league. I don’t even have a gut feeling about him. If he gets the right opportunity, he’ll make it, but if he gets put in the wrong situation, then gets shuffled backwards, it is hard for players to resurrect their careers even after just a couple of setback years.
I think about this maybe more from the player’s perspective. Should OADs be coming to Kansas? Wigs isn’t even part of this example because he could have made it if he flipped burgers for a year. Kansas players have media pushing on them to leave Kansas.
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
“Have we won a National Championship as a result of a OAD?”
There is a logic error in this statement because it is a team sport. If it was tennis singles, then you could ask this question. We haven’t been able to win a NC with these OAD players, but the weight of winning and losing isn’t strictly on the OAD.
I think Wigs and JoJo definitely helped us save our conference streak. They came in a total rebuild year. What did we lose… our first 6 or 7 players from the year before? That was quite a feat.
Of course we don’t know how we would have done if JoJo stayed healthy… but let’s leave that out of the discussion. What if those guys had signed on to a team with many juniors and seniors in the other key roles? Might we have advanced? Sure.
I don’t think we are getting a proper taste of OADs because we have counted on them the last two years on teams that were amongst the youngest teams in America. Worse… on both of these teams, our OAD big was erased in March.
I can think of some of our past teams and imagine what they might have done had we had Wigs on those teams. Teams where Wigs could have been an accessory instead of forced into Savior role.
Maybe we are all looking at this all wrong. It’s great to score a few OADs… but just make sure there is a base of quality, experienced players around them.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@drgnslayr and that’s what I think Coach is trying to do. Key word, quality.
justanotherfan last edited by
We need to improve on the perimeter. Our wings without Oubre are not very strong. Can anyone say that they are honestly confident that Selden will be both healthy and consistent next season? Anyone? Bueller?
Is anyone confident that Greene can cover anyone for 25 mpg?
If you answered no to either of those questions, we need a perimeter player that can come in and help right away. Those are the facts.
@justanotherfan Alas, even with Oubre our wings weren’t particularly strong this year. And, I would answer no to your questions. Frankly, with our current roster, I would be more confident in Svi at this point than either Selden or Greene on the wing. Maybe that is just wild-eyed optimism, but I think he has more upside a much more well rounded game.
Blown last edited by
I’d prefer 3-4 year guys ranked 40-80 as long as Self continues to adjust his offensive scheme. It isn’t working for kids who can’t learn it in a year.
I wasn’t paying total attention to the McD game last night but I thought that an announcer said that of the 24 kids in the 2013 game 5 are in the NBA. Did I hear correctly? If correct, my question is how many of the remaining 19 declared for the NBA? If there were more that declared it would appear that they got bad advice. On the other hand if none or only a couple of the other 19 declared then one might conclude that the OAD problem is not as big a deal as we think.
Roster turnover has been the main issue to me in a lot of the grumblings fans are speaking about.
Since 2011, 10 kids have left the program (11 with Cliff ) early either due to transfer, NBA, health issues. Hard pressed to find many teams that have as much turnover as KU has had not counting a coaching change.
5 ended up in the NBA after their freshman year.
2012 decimated our chance for upperclassmen when Peters, White, Adams all gone by Sophomore year.
The last 2 years have depended so much on Freshman to contribute when Freshman in a Self system aren’t meant to dominate in year one. He may never adapt his system so that happens. Some have tried and disappointed fans expectations. It happens there 18-19 year old kids.
If you want Self to focus only on the Top 30-100 kids you’ll have to wait til next year. You might keep waiting until 2020.
FarSideHawk last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 would be happy about the bigs, would hate the perimeter signing.
RockChalkinTexas last edited by
Kansas Jayhawk Fans @FansOfKU · Apr 1
Jaylen Brown says he’s definitely going to an Adidas school…KU is 1 of 3 Adidas schools on his list…could help fill void left by Oubre
Any one that’s good that wants to come and play for KU I am excited to have join the squad, if they will make the squad net better.
We are trying to build the best team we can with the best players we can attract given the rules as they are.
There are trade offs to any player at any level of talent and length of stay.
Board rats are having a lot of trouble with this issue, because it is apparent that teams can get to the Final Four and win the tournament without OADs and with them.
What I would ask everyone to remember is that Self is not making a choice between OADs and 20-50 ranked players.
He is making a choice based on what he thinks his team needs and he is choosing among what is available.
Self proved seasons 1 through 9 that he could do exactly what Bo Ryan and Tom Izzo have done this season. He could go deep and win it once and finish second, and get to the elite 8 and sweet 16 twice in 9 tries. But by his 9th season, there was a realization that the recruiting constraints were going to permit coaches like Cal to stack teams with OADs–first with five, then with 10.
Self has incrementalized into this process.
He started without OADs.
Then he tried adding one to supplement a nucleus.
What Self realized that most of us did not, was that once this move to OADs began to spread, Cal was going to move 10 and other coaches like Coach K and Sean Miller were going to move to 5-10, and very shortly, there weren’t going to be any draft choice type players–players like Rush, Chalmers, Shady, BenMac, Simien, the Morri, and so on, left to build a team with a traditional nucleus class of guys that would mature into draft choices.
In other words, the vacuum upwards was not going to just suction OADs up to the top few schools, but it was going to suction TADs, also. And Self reasoned rightly IMHO, that it would not stop at TADs.
The NBA drafts potential.
The schools that cater to OADs are recruiting potential to serve the NBA.
The only limit to who with potential Cal will sign is 13 scholarships.
I suspect Self figured that it would only take 10 schools–two in each of the five power conferences–shifting over to signing OADs each season, to vacuum up the top 130 players and Self would then find himself trying to build NCAA champions at a school that demanded them, without access to any of the draft choice grade players, even AFTER he got done coaching them up.
Clearly Self and KU’s adidas-agent complex relationship has not yet been able to produce more than three reputed OADs in a season.
But that at least means KU has some draft choice grade players on his club each season.
If he does not enter this sweepstakes, the nature of competition will lead in time to KU not having ANY draft choice grade players even after he coaches’em up for 4-5 seasons.
And remember that all of Self’s best teams have had draft choice grade players.
This is why I believe Self has moved as he has.
If the adidas-agent complex could produce 5 OADs per season, I believe he would have that many already.
And I believe Rick Pitino would, too.
Tom Izzo maybe old enough that he does not wish to go that route, but I suspect you will see Tom loading up on more and more to as his roster spots open up. Tom is after all with Nike.
HighEliteMajor last edited by
@justanotherfan Tell me that the perimeter guys we’re bringing in will be better than what we have, and I’ll buy it. I’m with @DCHawker and @FarSideHawk on this one 100%. Just say no to perimeter OADs this year.
Even given Selden’s maddening underperformance, I’d take him over a Wiggins level talent coming in. That’s my mindset.
And don’t you agree that if we sign one, a current guy is likely to bolt?
REHawk last edited by REHawk
@HighEliteMajor Based on what I saw last season, I would trade either Greene or Selden for Jaylen Brown, even if he were to stay one year. And I would trade them both for that big Australian kid who picked LSU…if he would commit to 2 years in Lawrence.
@HighEliteMajor In this matter, the words GREED and POTENTIAL are my two middle names.
Lulufulu last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 This year? I dunno. I mean if we even add one more perimeter player like Malik or somebody, I’ll be good. But I guess we might need another Big to complement Bragg, whether it be OAD or Senior Transfer. Dont much care which.
I like your read on Self and his move to OADs. I don’t think he likes the way college basketball has become, but it isn’t like he can change the game or the way players think, or NBA sets rules.
Is there any way the Aussie could decommit?
Didn’t two of LSU’s good players decide to jump?
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 yes, Wissox knows about them.
@jaybate-1.0 Not sure I can make sense of your numbers - vacuuming up OADs - top 130 players? There are typically only 10-15 projected OADs each year and not that many actually play to that level or end up declaring. Last year, 9 freshmen were drafted and 3 of those are NBDL or marginal NBA players.
This year, most draft boards have about 12 freshmen, and not all of those will actually declare (others may for different reasons, but they aren’t true OADs and have no chance of being drafted). UK and Duke are the only ones with multiple likely potential first round OAD draft choices - and Jones from Duke and a couple of the UK guys may stick around.
What recent history tells us is that if you are relying primarily on OADs, you need to have multiple and they need to be guys that will be top 10 draft picks - you need overwhelming talent to overcome the lack of experience and other skill sets. You can get a lot of quality in the 10-50 ranking range that will almost certainly be around at least 2 years, many of them 3-4 years. If I think I can out-scheme you, then I would rather go into battle with hardened group of 2-4 year tested veteran players than with 2-3 untested (and possibly over-hyped) OADs.
The facts are that there are generally fewer than 10 truly elite freshmen each year. As long as Calipari is around, UK will probably getting the pick of the litter. Now that K is all in, he’ll get a couple, maybe UNC, as well. AZ will get 1-2, esp. the west coast guys. Just not much more to spread around to KU or anyone else that may have a home court advantage.
I would argue that trying to chasing OADs every year and foregoing other talented 4-5 star players is the real Fool’s Gold…
DoubleDD Banned last edited by DoubleDD
The OAD is kind of souring my stomach but I’m afraid as KU fans we have no choice. HCBS has been recruiting these kids hard and heavy. It seems the problem with getting OAD’s they leave holes in your team for the next year.
There was a time when a kid graduated and moved onto a Pro career there was a kid waiting in the wings. It seems like with the OAD’s you have no choice but to continue down the path. Well unless take you’re hits for a couple of years of losing to revert back to the old way.
So @Jaybate-1.0 it’s not about what if we land 3 OAD’s it’s almost a must.
Fortunately, we probably will.
This tournament has probably awakened quite a few of the remaining recruits, and maybe even some of those that are sitting on UK’s and Duke’s benches, to the reality of several supposed OADs sitting on a bench for most of the games of an NCAA tournament.
I am not saying this will end program stacking, just that there will be some guys that sit and think, well, I do actually like to play, and not just practice. And If go to KU and I’m a 3 or a 5, I am going to get to have the fun of playing all the time.
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
My biggest issue with OADs is that each one creates an unknown variable concerning their performance. We’ve already seen a big difference between the performance output of the OADs we have had.
Seems like if you open it up to having more than 2 OADs on one team you may be taking on more than you can chew. You best have a good alternative backup to these guys if they don’t develop enough to give Top 10 performances, especially in March.
Cliff is an example. Even without his fiasco… how productive would he have been in March? I seriously doubt he would have made a difference in the loss to WSU. Kelly offered us more, but even his game fluctuated. I’m not bagging on either of these guys, they are great players but too young and inexperienced to count on.
What I’m getting at is we need to make sure and build the majority of our starting lineup the old-fashioned way. Guys starting should be juniors and seniors and have them backed up with quality freshmen and sophomores… learning the system and preparing for their moment. If we have the opportunity for one to two true OADs, then we should feel very sure that their one year as a Jayhawk will actually pay a dividend, because they are taking up space that could be filled by a veteran player. Players like Wigs and Anthony Davis were ‘no miss’ players.
But in the future, these star one-year players have to be blended into the team better. Wigs situation was a mess. Our offense was a mess. Those clear-outs and the rest of the team taking a break when Wigs had the ball… was a mess. If we can’t do a better job of infusing this kind of talent, then we should leave them for other teams.
It is rare when I’m going to bag on a player. Many are unprepared and they make mistakes… that responsibility is on the coaches’ shoulders. I think we are one or two players away from competing next year in March. We will have a great group of guys. They all want to succeed. It is up to our coaches to make the right plan and get the players to execute it… and execute it with plenty of optimism, passion and motivation.
"This tournament has probably awakened quite a few of the remaining recruits, and maybe even some of those that are sitting on UK’s and Duke’s benches, to the reality of several supposed OADs sitting on a bench for most of the games of an NCAA tournament.
I am not saying this will end program stacking, just that there will be some guys that sit and think, well, I do actually like to play, and not just practice. And If go to KU and I’m a 3 or a 5, I am going to get to have the fun of playing all the time."
I would like to believe this to be true… but there seems to be lots of players that just want to win a championship and don’t mind doing it from the bench. Maybe this will change if Kentucky blows it this weekend. Then they sat on the bench and didn’t even win a championship! Cal has everything riding on this weekend. The nation should be against Kentucky this weekend… it is bad for college basketball. Those players should be sprinkled across the nation, helping fill real holes in other teams that are good but would have been great had they been chosen instead of Kentucky.
wissoxfan83 last edited by
I think KU needs to sign some RAD’s.
They can come for a year if they want I guess.
I’d prefer they come for 3 or 4.
I just want them to be RAD’s.
RING AND DONE
"I just want them to be RAD’s.
RING AND DONE"
Conference Championship rings?
wissoxfan83 last edited by
Well of course that’s what I meant because with our present situation we’re not going to win the rings that matter most.