It's Venting Time
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@justanotherfan Self isn’t going to change. He has never EVER exploited matchup advantages. Once every three or four years he’ll adopt something new if he sees some other coach (i.e., Izzo) have success with it. Maybe Hunter would get to play against an opponent’s 6’6" center if he could hang around two or three more years.
Frankly, I’m not really too excited about next year. Other than a couple bright spots, I don’t expect it to be much different than this year or last. Same coaching philosophy. Same inconsistent players. Same headcase problems with too many of them.
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@globaljaybird
We were slower with our original lineup of Lucas-Ellis-Oubre-Selden-Mason vs. Carter-Wessel-Cotton-Baker-Van Vleet because Carter, Wessel and Cotton all had the speed advantage.
However, if we switch to a lineup of Ellis-Oubre-Selden-Graham-Mason, suddenly we maintain a size advantage at 3 of 5 spots, but we also have a speed advantage at every spot except the Cotton-Selden matchup. Trying to play 2 big guys burned us because we sacrificed speed but didn’t capitalize on our size advantage by destroying the smaller players inside.
Instead, they hurt us because they forced our bigs into awkward situations either guarding on the perimeter or pick and rolls that forced our bigs to make decisions on whether to hedge on the ballhandler or open up to let the defender through. On at least three different plays yesterday, a KU big (either Traylor or Lucas) ended up in no man’s land on a screen play that allowed Van Vleet to turn the corner, or hit a wide open three. Baker also got a couple open looks on that type of action. Going small would have prevented that because you could just switch that action instead of trying to decide whether to hedge or open up.
Those are the types of adjustments I would like to see Self make. In a one game playoff, you can’t wait to see if guys figure it out. Once they have hit a couple shots on that action, you have to make a change, either strategic or personnel, to combat that. Self waited too long to switch personnel. It wasn’t apparent whether they made a strategic switch and just couldn’t execute it, or if they stuck with the same principles throughout, but ultimately it should have been a personnel change (going small) to improve the defense.
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@justanotherfan Swish…
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Nothing new for me to add that hasn’t been better said already, but feel the need to say a few words anyways…
Wondering why the tall Hunter, who’s been playing better ball lately didn’t play more when some players didn’t have their A game going.
Liked seeing Lucas start and thought he did a good job.
BG looked lost, again, and really poor on defense.
Seldon was a no show… again.
How many Shocker players were a no show?
Shockers wanted it more and like someone mentioned above, this is as good for them as going to the FF.
Refs put the hurt on us early. Not whining, not the main reason we lost, but definitely a factor in the mix.
Can’t say I’m too surprised at the outcome. Accidentally somehow switched from time lapse DVR delay during halftime to 4 minutes left. At first it was Oh No, then it was, So glad I didn’t have to watch all of the second half.
Disappointed again with an early exit. But liked the stats I saw on some thread here that shows we’re in elite company with 3 sweet 16s in five years, A nice perspective.
A little of the amazing sheen of HCBS is wearing off, but still think he did a great job with what he had to work with, if a bit slow to respond sometimes. Still a hall of famer and no one I’d rather have as our coach.
Glad this board isn’t like the other one, sniping and attacking and sour grapes. Thanks to all the intelligent posters, I’ve learned much about the game reading you all.
Last and certainly not least, I am really, really stoked for how good we are going to be next year. I guess I say that almost every year - tho I didn’t after last year. But I got an unnaturally good feeling for our potential next season.
Take care all.
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@DanR As they said in tropic thunder “never go full retard” One thing about HCBS is that he is consistent and that will keep him employed until he decides to leave.
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I was under the impression that the Ellis elbow was a flagrant. Not because I thought VanVleet had any malicious intent but because the rule states it that way. Any elbow or blow to the head is supposed to be monitored, I didn’t see them go to the monitor because usually that delays the game a few minutes. This same play with slightly different context happened in the VCU/Ohio St game. And they gave the VCU player a flagrant even though his intent was to score the basket. Just goes to show you how 2 different officiating crews can screw up the same call in a game.
The ref’s were certainly not the reason we lost but it did seem that WSU was allowed to get away with far more aggressive play than KU was. I hate when ref’s call the game too tight but then forget to call the obvious ones as well.
It’s kind of like West Virginia. You know they are going to foul you, they are basically told to foul. But in the course of fouling they may get 5 turnovers from aggressive play and over time that sticks with the refs. Now the snowball affect happens that they can get away with more because the ref’s don’t get to see them being unaggressive. KU wasn’t the aggressor yesterday once they blew the lead. Wichita used their defense to get away with whatever they wanted.
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Since you asked,
I’m venting about the RPI, the strength of schedule. From now on, let’s schedule the Oklahoma City School of Horseshoeing and the Andale School For the Blind (among others). Let’s be #302 on the RPI. Roll over a bunch of teams by 50 points (just so we remember how to) and get some confidence.
I’m venting about the Big 12 Conference Championship. Lose it. Intentionally if you have to. Is there anything more embarrassing than winning the Sacred Big 12 title and then losing the second game of the NCAA tourney? Screw it. There are 6 UCLA fans that give a crap if their 13 titles in a row stand. Everybody else in the world could not care less.
I’m venting about the type of players we’ve been recruiting lately (not ALL of them, but way too many) who don’t give a crap about KU. Who know nothing of our history. Who are not putting forth maximum effort all the time.
I’m venting about a team that when the season is over, makes me not even care. I’d like to go back to crying, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff. Now, I don’t care any more than the players or coaches do.
Thanks for asking me to vent. I’m better now.
Come on football season.
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@BeddieKU23 Me too-any contact above the shoulders is to be reviewed…
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I wish I had believed my post after the Temple game after I wrote “I’m done”. Would have saved a lot of frustration.
I’m not sure why this team bothered me more than other teams that fell short but I’ll try.
A lack of dominant wins. Every once in a while it’s nice just to watch the boys roll. It didn’t happen all year except with a couple of the preseason/early season ‘practice’ games.
Out of control plays. Yesterday Traylor corralled a loose ball after we missed a shot. Before he stops a second to think, he throws the ball to what he thinks is an open guy. Of course it misses the mark and we lose another possession. We made so many of these types of plays yesterday and really all season. Ball security was not valued this season. That needs to change.
Our players are not passionate. Earlier in the season Oubre got T-d up for something stupid. He intentionally bumped an opponent, might have been OK State. I didn’t like it, but it was a rare instance this year. The Morris twins were tough and didn’t let teams push us around. We don’t seem to have that toughness. @Jaybate 1.0 made note of it yesterday when someone elbowed Perry in the nose. We shouldn’t have taken that.
I really don’t know much about coaching except that I coached a 5th grade team to a league championship once. Bill Self had his worst year coaching at KU in my very limited opinion. The lack of PT for Mickelson stands out to me, particularly after Cliff left. We’ve had two subpar years in a row, last year was not any better in my mind, and it’s worrisome to me that he peaked in 2008, and we’ll not reach that height again, similar to Izzo who seemed destined to many more rings but really hasn’t come close since winning in 2000.
The assistant coaches are more recruiters than coaches. Do we miss Danny? Sure seemed like it yesterday when a shorter team still dominated our team.
Finally a few of the players are to blame, for lack of a better word:
Selden is as enigmatic of any Jayhawk I can remember.
Greene, a head case who should be a headliner on this team, but instead may not ever play significant minutes at KU.
Hoping for a nice off season with hope for a return to our normal dominance.
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@justanotherfan : Bill Self must embrace matchup advantages, or he will always be vulnerable to early round upsets.
As you well know, I wouldn’t hold my breath on this happening. For the sake of my family I’ve stopped screaming expletives at the television in hopes of exploiting obvious mis-matches from our team. How many times have we finally switched up our defense or applied a press too late?? Bob Huggins deservedly picked up the Big12 COY this year because he was able to do more with less than any other coach in the conference. He did that with less talent (sans Staten) and more players (I think he’s played 12-13 guys on average).
As for those asking for new blood in the assistant coaching spot(s): IMO you’re absolutely right. I’m just not sure “Snacks” is delivering. Yes he was the one that brought us Cliff, but he also brought us embarrassment (for his own actions and Cliffs ordeal^1). Since I’m not privy to practice and who did the game plan for which games this year I can’t figure what else he’s brought.
As for recruits next year, this is what I see.
Norm is after Jaylen Brown, Cheick Diallo, and Brandon Ingram and he already landed Bragg.
Kurtis is after Ivan Rabb, Thon Maker, and Stephen Zimmerman.
Snacks is after Malik Newman.
Snacks is after only one guy. And chances are he won’t get him. Does this mean Snacks is going to “take another coaching position that well allow for him to chase his dream of one day being a HC” this off season? I surely hope so. We need someone with the desire to coach.
There are a few problems with our current list prospects. From what I’ve found out searching around the chances are we will strike out on them all but maybe, MAYBE, one of them. There still is a chance we get Diallo (and I hope we do and he doesn’t end up in Ames) but really he’s the only one showing up as high interest on the majority of the sites.
The other problem is, like someone else said above, we’re recruiting the wrong kids to fit our system. I’d rather not go after the top kids that don’t fit our h/l system unless we change up our current system to better utilize said greater talent. If we want to be a team that plays strictly h/l then only recruit those guys. I don’t care if they’re ranked 1 or 51, if they’re who the coaches identify as being the best recruit for the h/l then throw the damn house at them to get them to Lawrence. We nearly beat a UK team in 2012 with guys that fit the h/l system perfectly. Withey (36) and TRob (31) weren’t super recruits. In 08 Shady (16), Sasha (34), Cole (30), Darnell (54) weren’t OADs. We do better with T(hree)AD 30-60ranks and T(wo)AD 16-30ranks. Those are the guys that stick around and buy in to the system. How often does anyone think Wiggins will come back? Ben, a two year guy, loves KU and comes back. Same for a lot of the guys that poured their heart and soul into being Jayhawks. And don’t take this the wrong way. I think/thought Wiggins was great, personally I loved having him as a Jayhawk, but he’s not h/l and he wasn’t all in. Same can be said of Oubre, Greene. We recruited guys that don’t fit our system and for one reason or another can’t, won’t, didn’t buy in. Being the number one recruiting class would be great. What would be greater is getting a good recruiting class of guys that will plug into our schemes and make for a great team.
Here’s to hoping we can figure it all out before tWG this summer. Nothing would be as embarrassing as laying a big fat egg before the NCAA season even starts!!!
^1 - I’ve seen on other sites that it’s believed Michigan State backed off of Cliff after finding something troubling out. Izzo made remarks about middlemen. Obviously something was fishy way before Cliff inked with KU. Which is troubling to me. Maybe this is new news to some here in Jayhawk land. Here’s a link to enlighten you. Click here
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@nuleafjhawk & @HighEliteMajor I’m with you on the apathy, but I reached that point after last year’s tournament debacle. I remember thinking after a few early games last season, “Wow, this team is gonna be SO good!” And they just never developed into the team that they should have been with that talent level.
And the Stanford game was the final straw, when Joel had to sit and Bill still insisted on running his offense through…wait for it…Tarik Black. A game plan that produced five shots for…wait for it…ANDREW FREAKIN’ WIGGINS!!! Cuz, “We’re gonna run our stuff.”
That was it for me. I no longer invest myself emotionally in this program. I’m tired of feeling like someone died after another tournament upset. I’ll admit, I did get excited after the first Texas game. I thought maybe this team was coming together. But then…
And then again, at halftime of the Big12 tourney Iowa State game. After a good second half against Baylor and a good first half v ISU, I again thought, “Maybe…”
And in our first round NCAA game, the first preliminary game I’ve felt comfortable in for a long time (remember being tied at halftime with Eastern Kentucky last year?) when we got our 3game back on track. I thought, 'Wow, maybe that longwinded poster is right–maybe we can just turn on our 3game whenever we want." And maybe Bill was holding something back for the tournament. Maybe he really is… A Riverboat Gambler!!! lol
But no, Same ol’ Same, Same ol’ Bill. Another tournament upset. Another team that almost everyone thinks should have been better.
But it doesn’t feel like a day of mourning, because it’s been going on for a while now. This doesn’t seem like a sudden death, like UNI & VCU & Michigan did. It seems more like watching a program slipping away. Although it’s only been 3 years since our last title game appearance, it seems like our program’s relevance in the National Title picture is withering away.
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Varied opinions here. FWIW, the inconsistencies throughout the season gave me a reasoned approach to how far this team was going to go and I was chastised for saying we wouldn’t make the Sweet 16 and told I wasn’t a fan for not “cheering” for them. Reality is this team did not ever put back-to-back dominant games (or even back-to-back halves - except the game I saw here in Austin). I really hated reading quotes from players saying they weren’t ready yesterday. WTF? That attitude right there across the board with both the team/coaches has been the most disappointing.
One good thing - I now have lots of time to tend to my garden (have 60 tomato plants already in the ground) and be outside to enjoy this wonderful time of year.
Rock Chalk. Catch you later.
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@wissoxfan83
“I’m not sure why this team bothered me more than other teams that fell short but I’ll try.”
What bothered me most was the feeling I had that this team would develop top-notch chemistry. All the guys like each other and seem to be well-bonded. I had a feeling in my gut that would help carry them over the lows. In some ways it did, but there were other areas it didn’t seem to help.
"One good thing - I now have lots of time to tend to my garden (have 60 tomato plants already in the ground) and be outside to enjoy this wonderful time of year. "
I’m with you on that! I haven’t even started my seeds! I’m late!
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I would love to say wait till next year, but we will have the basic team back next year. Is that really a good thing? I’m not sure being a year older is going to help this team either.
Also think the lack of tournament success is really starting to show some glaring holes in Bill Self as a HC. I hate to admit it but winning conference championships just isn’t cutting it anymore. I would venture to say look for the winds of change to start chirping if HCBS and next years team don’t make a deep run in the tournament.
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@RockChalkinTexas I’ll drive over to Austin to raid your garden when they get ripe.
(That was a joke.)
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And in the meantime,
Kentucky moves on.
Duke moves on.
Louisville moves on.
Arizona moves on.
North Carolina moves on.
Michigan State moves on.
UCLA moves on.
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@RockChalkinTexas Well, I guess that’s the group we belong in then.
Non-Blueblood programs.
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We could have really used a healthy Zach Peters in the paint the last 2 years! I wish that kid would have panned out.
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@Statmachine Could have used a B-MAC, an Andrew Wiggins and a Joel Embiid as well…
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Here’s how I’m choosing to look at this.
Maybe this team is simply a year away from being great.
Kansas could conceivably start 5 upperclassmen next year (with a bare minimum of 3, but most likely 4). That’s insane by recent history’s standards.
You can only hope that the previous 2 early exits have made this team hungry. Time is running out for the upperclassmen to do some damage in March. None of them have experienced anything beyond the sweet 16 (save Traylor, who wasn’t allowed to compete). And only once at that.
I’m already scared for next year.
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@nuleafjhawk could you imagine our team if we DID have all of them on this years roster?
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Man, I would love to have Jaylen Brown and Malik Newman on this team. Those are guys that can really break a defense down. However, I agree with you that if we don’t utilize their great ball skills, there really isn’t much point in having them around. Doesn’t make sense to have a Ferrari just to go to the grocery store.
But that’s where we will be hurt in future recruiting battles. The top talent will see that maybe Kansas isn’t a destination program because we don’t utilize and showcase the unique individual skills of our players. Bill Self is putting himself in a situation where he almost has to land not just top recruits, but top interior players, because having top perimeter recruits doesn’t help him because he doesn’t maximize their talent.
I’ve always wondered if Self’s approach is affected by the fact that he was a PG, but he wasn’t a break you down off the dribble type of guard. Self wasn’t blowing by anybody, so he envisions the role of a PG as a distributor and wants his perimeter guys to pound the ball inside like he was taught. Even with great players like Wiggins, Oubre, Rush, McLemore, etc., Self wants them working the ball into the post rather than creating. Just a thought.
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@DoubleDD said:
venture to say look for the winds of change to start chirping if HCBS and next years team don’t make a deep run in the tournament.
Hmmm. Yes,… and while maybe I’ll feel different if we are the only blue blood program not to make it out of the first weekend again next year, right now I feel as if I might start losing a bit of passion myself if we suck in the tourney yet again.
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@Statmachine I think we would have had Kentucky peeing down their pants legs.
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I’d love to see college hoops as in the early 1980’s when a team like UNC had James Worthy, Sam Perkins, and MJ on the same team as experienced players, and they were challenged by other schools with equal talent. This was only possible because they stayed around for at least 3 years.
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@nuleafjhawk Yeah, and just think if we still had Wilt and Danny and JoJo! Then we could put a smackdown on that mean ol’ Kentucky, lol!
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Big 12 Title = Fool’s Gold?
Coach Self and his staff are paid to get effort, intensity, energy out of our guys in March. If this early upset was a one-off or if we fought hard but didn’t get it done (see 2012 title game) – okay, but instead the half-hearted early exit has become our “new normal”. Are the Big 12 Titles our real “fool’s gold”?
My 13 yo daughter woke me up in the middle of the night last night saying she’d had a nightmare. I sat on the edge of her bad and said, “no, honey, it wasn’t a nightmare, we really DID roll over for Wichita State.” She kept trying to interrupt me to say that wasn’t her nightmare but I was quicker, “no, no, honey, I know it seems unbelievable that most of our best players disappeared yesterday, but it really did happen.” And, “Frank ran at the Beast, but he was too worn down from carrying the load all season - Bill just ran him into the ground.” Then, “I know you’re really scared, and I am too, but soon enough we’ll be sad that summer is over and it will be October and it will all start again.”
I never did find out what that nightmare was, but I had her giggling by the time I left her room. As for me, I’m likely still too upset by what I didn’t see yesterday, but my 10+ year crush on HCBS is over.
Thanks to all for a great site…I’ve learned immensely from all of you. Will be interesting to see where Gregg Marshall lands. Twitter is alight with Alabama rumors.
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Can’t wait til Late Night next October when we hang our Big 12 Banner!!!
What kind of hilarious skit will Bill pull?
Will he ride a motorcycle?
Will he wear a Wiggins-style sports coat?
Will he dress up like a shock of wheat?Okay, I know, that was mean. I’m sorry. But I couldn’t resist
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@iheartjayhawks I think Marshall might (and should) hold out for something bigger. There might openings at Texas and Syracuse on the near horizon, lol.
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“Will he dress up like a shock of wheat?”
Or wear a “Fear the Wheat” shirt?
I know I’m terrified of wheat… especially the gluten!
I’m going to jump the gun and order me a “Fear the Gluten” shirt!
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I don’t know what we were writing in 2006 on this same week. For the second straight year we had been defeated by one of the Killer B’s. We were a national laughingstock. We were wearing paper bags over our heads at KU games. We just flat out stunk up the place.
Fast forward to 2008. You know how this story ends.
Fast forward to 2010. Northern Iowa, we got Farmoushked. We were embarrassments once again.
Fast forward to 2012 We know how this story ends.
Next year, another election year (totally irrelevant, but we like to look for patterns) 1988 was an election year. 1952 was an election year. I vote for another big year for KU hoops next election year.
But more seriously than the dumb election year hypothesis is the fact that we’ve been down before in serious ways and rebounded nicely. The pieces are there for a very solid team next year. I’m hoping that somehow Cliff is available. I’m hoping, probably vainly, that Kelly stays. Of course Perry needs to stay, although he could leave too.
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@wissoxfan83
Like that positive perspective!
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@wissoxfan83 great post. I was also looking at the 4 year pattern and consoling myself that next year could be final four.
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@drgnslayr I’m with you that motivation is the key. Figuring out how to get the kids to play free and with passion. This is what has started to bother me about Self. He seems to motivate using negatives. Playing “not to lose,” quick hook for mistakes, berating players on the sidelines.
As cheesy as Marshall’s pre-game speech was (and as much as I dislike him), it was positive.
Many talk about how easy life must be with 9/10 OADs. But when you watch them play, they play free, they play hard. I hate it! I hate listening to Calipari say all the things I wish Bill Self would say. He talks about how his kids play for each other, and play with joy. Even platooning was a great way to allow the crazy amount of talent to play together and not see the bench as a place of punishment. Say what you will about how sleazy he may be, but he has a message, his players buy into it, and they use it to propel them to better play.
Can anyone remember a time this season when Self barked at the players on the side lines and they came out better after? Punishment doesn’t work as a motivator. It sometimes works as a deterrent but will never inspire or push someone to work harder. When I saw the look in Self’s eyes and the negative interaction during time outs I started to lose hope. Our players weren’t scared of the Shockers, they were scared of making mistakes. Scared of Self’s rage. Scared of a seat on the bench.
The only one’s who weren’t were Frank, Devonte, and Perry. Perry has had to learn to motivate himself (as @drgnslayr pointed out). Frank is naturally fearless (a rare quality), and Devonte has been reported to be atypically upbeat. Either Self needs to find more players with these intangibles or change his approach.
Criticism is important. It is one important way to improve. It is not the ONLY way to improve. I have heard more and more this year from announcers about Self getting “on them” in practice or in shoot around. They laugh and applaud his hard nosed approach. Again in no way am I opposed to a coach “getting on” his players, but if that is all you do than all you can hope for are players who play to not mess up.
This seems like a recent shift. In 2008 Darnell Jackson was all about “let your nuts hang” (which killed me when I heard FVV say it). EJ was “put yo shoes on.” T-Rob brought FOE. With this quiet team there was no positive message. No uplifting theme. Self needed to provide that. Yes, it is more authentic and effective if it comes from the players but if they guys don’t do it, someone has to.
I’m not upset that we lost to WSU. I’m not upset that our tournament is over. I am upset that I find myself more drawn to the messages of other coaches who seem to INSPIRE their players to greatness (or at least better than us).
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@benshawks08 Oh boy! So Calipari says everything is great. His players play for each other for joy. That’s rich since most posters on this site think that nothing comes out of Cal’s mouth except lies. So is Cal showcasing his whole herd of players during the time of the year when they will get the most pub to show that they are ready for the league? Currently he has been playing a 7-8 man rotation. No more of the platoon bushwa. How do you know that those Mickey Ds at the end of the bench are happy as Cal tells the world that they are not really good enough?
That Bill Self is quite a slave master. What rage? Actually I have hardly seen Self as composed as he was yesterday. He even had a smile on his face a few times. I know, smiling is also a negative motivator.
Have you ever watched other coaches? Cal gets on his people like crazy. You must not remember last year when he threw about 1/2 of his team under the bus after the NIT loss.
Ever watch Roy? Dad gum he gets on people when they make mistakes. Think coach K is all giggles and grins? Have you ever seen him stare down a player in the huddle after a dumb move.
Have you read slayr’s and others comments about coaches they have had? How the coaches rode them to perform well. How they disliked them until later in life when they realized that the coach was trying to get the best out of them.
You must really hate to watch football. Now there is a game where coaches really grind on players.
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@sfbahawk thx!
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@sfbahawk I believe I implied I don’t like Calipari and think he is pretty slimy. I watch a lot of coaches and often see them get on players and as I said, that is fine. Most coaches yell, most stare at players, most at some point use volume as a motivator. It is my observation that Self tends to be a bit MORE negative than most. I am saying that perhaps he has lost a little bit of the balance of negative to positive reinforcement that has been present in the past. This years team (and last years too) had no message, no joy (minus a few fun moments from DG). It is a game and is supposed to be fun, and rarely did I see that from this team.
And I totally agree about Cal and his tendency to throw players under the bus once it is all said and done. Never will you here me say that Cal is a man of good character. And I certainly have a great deal more respect for Self and the way he handles our program.
This thread is called it’s Venting Time. So I vented. I tried to get out my most negative thoughts. Hopefully to be left with more positive ones. I guess that is what I get for going down the negative path. See it really doesn’t work! I’m usually more of the look on the bright side kind of guy. Maybe I’ll stick to that.
P.S. I’m not a big football fan but it doesn’t have much to do with the coaches.
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@DoubleDD I think a year will make a difference. Will it make enough so that we become a title contender? I think we need a big man to go through (Cliff returns…not likely IMO, or one of the big man recruits). Like it or not, that is what Self needs to be successful.
