It's Venting Time
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@KUSTEVE no hard feelings, my bad too.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Funny. I saw that play, thinking Oubre just doesn’t have his head right for this. Of course, neither did Traylor, Ellis, or Selden. We needed someone to show up aside from Mason and Graham, and nobody did.
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The negatives are glaring for this year. But the positives about next year smack me in the face so I can sleep better tonight.
Perry Ellis: Oh boy will we have an absolute stud next year. We all thought that would be this year, but it was on unseen expectations so we couldn’t be sure. Now we saw Ellis become a monster before the knee injury. Give it time to heal along with an off season to become even more complete, and we are looking at an 18 ppg player.
Hunter Mickelson: He NEEDS to become the starting 5 next year. Hopefully another year with Huddy and being around Self will get him the minutes he deserves. Lucas is a serviceable backup but that might be the limit of his potential.
Jamari Traylor: I love the guy but he simply should not get over 20 minutes a game with Ellis, Lucas, and Mickelson all being better options in my opinion. He can come in, get a highlight dunk to spark a nice 8-0 run.
Mason: The bulldog still needs more maturity. When things aren’t running smoothly, it doesn’t mean turn into a freight train and wildly throw up a shot in hopes to getting fouled. But this year, we saw Mason learn to set up teammates when he drives instead of constantly looking to score. The final piece of his maturity is to trust the offense and his teammates in the midst of scoring droughts. I predict this off season, he will do just that.
Greene: Will he have better handles to make him not easily to scout? My hope is he will develop that and by his senior year, be a first round draft pick. We saw him develop quite a bit defensively, so he can develop other aspects as well.
Selden: My hope is he gets past whatever mental block he has. I love him in a Kansas jersey and would hate to see him be recruited over. He see flashes of highlight alley oops and streaky shooting. Will this off season be the time he gets out of the way of himself? Only time will tell.
Svi: I don’t see another wing coming into the situation as far as recruiting is concerned. So Oubre’s time will be split of with Graham and Svi. He will not disappoint next year and be instant offense off the bench.
Graham: We just need him to develop a little bit of everything and we will be in hands off the bench. Shoot a little more consistently, a little better decision-maker, a little more vocal.
Self: With a good possibility of not having a footer for the second year in a row, I believe Self will learn from this season and adjust accordingly. What that looks like, I don’t know. But Self is way to competitive to let the team play out the way it did this year.
Keep in mind, this team has unlimited time to prepare in the summer. UNLIMITED TIME! that means unreal development and chemistry. Hold on to your butts my rock chalk brothers and sisters, we are in for one heck of a ride next year!
In the mean time, let us support our other athletic programs and dream for next year! Rock Chalk Jayhawk!
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@dylans Svi can play better D than Greene so I’d put Svi ahead on that count. Svi may play for his country for the games.
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Now the wichita news and smugass Gregg Marshall!
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@dylans Greene has had 2 years and still can’t play D.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Geez, you’re a glutton for punishment.
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@brooksmd i know! It’s torture!!
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@brooksmd or dribble
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Players saying Wessel a better player than Perry
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Self is on the phone right now looking for Thon Maker or another 7 footer. I don’t feel he will change his ways with the high/low. This is his style of play and his recruiting strategy to bring in post players.
My issue was the perimeter defense with this team. It was weak all year and we finally ran into a team that caught fire lately.
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I really think Coach Self has to let go of the OAD deal completely. Just get back to getting minimum 2 to 3 yr guys that he can develop. I know the culture now is OAD.
But, its just not working here for whatever reason. That much is clear. Its time to say gbye to that and start getting longterm players who fit the system. Im tired of the “were a young team” stuff all the time. Our 2 oldest teams in the Self era played for national titles. Now. As far as this years group. I had no expectations after the Temple loss. Just didnt pass the eye test for me really ever. I had hopes of course. I love my Jayhawks. Ill always have hopes. With that said. This loss… Just doesnt bother me from a stand point of who we played. Wsu in the top 15 all year. We all know they were a solid 4 to 5 seed. No question. It bothers me that after the first 15 minutes we seemed to get out scrapped. Wsu just wanted it more. Thats tough to swallow. Round of 32 loss two years in a row. Also another one and 2 first round losses Self Era. The deal is if not for years when we had great opportunities to make noise and make a statement for this program. 2010, 2011, 2013 the early exits may not hurt as bad. I dont know what the answer or formula is for Coach Self and,this program but i hope it gets fixed. Soon. And please before anyone cites the ole “crap shoot” excuse. Please dont. The tourney is tough. And yes there is some luck involved. But this is Kansas basketball. Were absolutely correct in wanting more. Hell. Even expecting more. I hope there is never another season where i have zero expectations before conference play ever starts
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@cragarhawk said:
dont know what the answer or formula is for Coach Self and,this program but i hope it gets fixed. Soon.
Amen.
Some changes are necessary. And I hope we don’t have to go down any further to go back up. We’ve been to the Sweet16 3 times in the last 5 years. But we’ve missed the last 2, so it seems like a drought.
3 in 5 is really good. But we have high standards. It’s ok to have high expectations. Louisville has been to the Sweet16 in 4 years in a row. So has Michigan State.
Sweet 16 comparison Since 2011 (last 5 years):
- Wisconsin: 4 times
- Kentucky: 4 times
- Arizona: 4 times
- Duke: 3 times
- UNC: 3 times
- ** Kansas 3 times**
- Wichita State: 2 times
- Xavier: 2 times
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I woke up this morning thinking about the game last night and realized that I this is the least upset I have been about the end of a KU season in decades. It is all about expectations, right? This year we rarely if ever blew anyone out. We rarely if ever hung onto a lead. Often we blew leads and either won by very little or lost the game after a huge meltdown. We had injuries. Guys were deemed ineligible. These are not excuses. They are just reality.
Then reality sunk in even more on Selection Sunday. We were given a draw where we were going to have to more than likely beat 3 teams in a row who had all been in the top 10 this year including undefeated UK. My expectations for a deep run were low. Was I positive? Yes, of course. But I was realistic.
When we lost to VCU in 2011 I literally cried. Not like a single tear either. A full on weeping like an 8 year old girl. In 2013 when we blew our 10 point lead to Michigan I smashed a beer glass and told a good friend to f"ck off. Those are low points for me. My expectations for those teams was National Title or bust. This year after we lost to a very good WSU team that simply played harder and wanted the game more I shed no tears. I spared any pint glasses. I didn’t get in heated arguments with close friends. I simply had a cup of tea to settle down. Read a book and went to bed. It just wasn’t going to be our year and I am ok with that.
We are KU and the journey is always part of the fun. We had some great wins this year and we are going to be fortunate enough as fans to see almost this entire team back next year. Oubre may leave. Cliff is probably gone. But our heart and soul will return and I think we should all be excited that next year is going to be another top 10 KU basketball team. That is more than almost any other program in the country can say.
Rock Chalk.
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I have no answers for this team. The talent is there. No consistency I guess. No “chemistry”. Teamwork is lacking - nobody seemed to be on the same page.
I’m with @joeloveshawks - in the past, I’ve lost my mind after a loss like yesterday. Now, I am about as apathetic as I could possibly be. I was much more upset about forgetting to DVR “The Last Man on Earth” last night…
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@joeloveshawks I understand your recoil. But this team had a high level of talented players. Selden a top 20 player, Oubre top 10, Svi an NBA talent, Greene top 40, Graham top 40, Mason was ranked around 75thish, Ellis top 40, Cliff top 5.
With that level of talent, we should win the conference, right? No one compares.
From a talent perspective – recruiting ratings – name me 5 teams with more roster talent? Kentucky, Duke and … exactly.
What were your expectations early in the season? Mid season? When we were 21-4?
The reality is … harsh reality … is that we underachieved yet again. As two seeds, the last two seasons, we are bounced in the first weekend. And as a 1 seed in 2013, we lose in the sweet 16.
And it is very sad that many of us, including @nuleafjhawk – a great Jayhawk fan – are reduced to being “apathetic” today. A coping mechanism, to be sure.
This is more like a day of mourning.
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I’m not shattered, but I’m still bummed. It snowed overnight here, and is still snowing. Appropriate. Day of mourning indeed.
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Ironically, I watched last man on Earth after the game and kept thinking “how has this not been cancelled yet?”
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@joeloveshawks, @nuleafkhawk
great posts, I felt the same way.
2011 I felt like I was in a comma for weeks I was so upset. To know we absolutely had the best team in the nation and let VCU do exactly what WSU did to us yesterday.
2013 I was in a Casino with friends watching the game at various TV’s. They played well and I thought the game was in the bag. When we blew the lead it’s like the life came out of me. Lost money at the poker table and didn’t even care. A guy at the table was talking about how KU just lost, I looked at him like I could choke the life out of him. I spent the next week trying to figure out how Elijah Johnson could have possibly blown that end of game so bad.
2014 I felt the game was over early and I was right. I went to the gym to vent my frustrations out only to find them try and come back. Another team that wanted it more than KU.
2015 I got the same feeling as last year right before halftime. I basically shut off all emotion and I said in the game thread that the game was over early in the 2nd half. When you get that feeling, it rarely ever turns around. Self is one of the best coaches but he can’t make kids understand that your going home if you don’t bring it. Not having Senior’s will do that, the urgency is just not there.
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You mentioned going to Omaha last week…did you go see this debacle live yesterday?
Doesn’t matter either way I’m just curious. I REALLY want to go to a ncaa tourney game but would prefer to see a win.
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@HighEliteMajor I love your posts. The best on here. And you always refer to our talent and I understand that. But are these guys really as talented as you think? Yes, they came in with high expectations due to what they did in high school but are they really that much more talented than WSU? It didn’t seem that way to me yesterday. Oubre and Greene may be a top 10 and top 40 players but they certainly didn’t look more talented than Ron Baker who was unranked. Van Vleet did whatever he wanted. Is he less talented than anyone on KU? I think a lot of our fans including myself assume we are more talented because our guys come in highly ranked and play for KU. We are all probably just wearing crimson colored glasses. Just give it some thought. Lots of teams have talent and just don’t have the flashy rankings to back it up.
Frank Mason is a stud and a super talent but was unranked. Perry is very talented but not a guy who can carry a team to victory by himself. Wayne is talented sure, but shows up to about 50% of our games.
Talent is only part of the equation. See Texas this year. See Duke last year. See UK when they went to the NIT.
Did KU underachieve this year? You bet. Am I upset that the season ended the way that it did after being 21-4 and winning another Big 12 title? Of course. But it happens. Nova and UVA were better than KU ALL season and they were sent packing as well. The NCAA tournament is a harsh and brutal way to end the year…every year unless you somehow win it all, which we have done 3 times ever.
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What I don’t like is the complete lack of urgency in KU’s last few oad players. It’s like they are looking forward to the draft and a big payday and not taking care of business. They play as if they have something to fall back on. Four year players tend to leave it on the court as this is their big stage. There is no next level to prove yourself; do it here and now.
Ali Farhokamesh (sp.) sure didn’t look tenative against KU. Why does someone as talented as Oubre go silently into the night?
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I’m not going to rehash the game as we all saw what happened. I will say this about the refs: no, it’s not their fault we lost, but I would suggest that the huge disparity in number of calls going against us early really tempered our aggressiveness. When you play worrying about fouling out instead of getting in front of your guy, it does affect what you do. I’m not suggesting we would have won if things had been called more evenly early on, but it certainly would have changed how the guys defended.
As for the bigger picture with this team, my first thought is scheduling. More specifically, the extremely high level of difficulty from the start of non-con all the way through the conference tourney. I understand wanting the guys to be battle-tested and I understand the need to take into account RPI and all that stuff as far as March seeding goes, but I don’t know if I can make the argument that we were better off as a #2 seed. I might have rather been a #3 or maybe even a #4 seed that still had some energy and some working ligaments to make a run.
I don’t want to turn this into a political statement, so please don’t construe this example as my pushing some political agenda, but the economist Arthur Laffer postulated his Laffer curve to show how tax rates affect revenues. Long story short, there is a point of diminishing returns where too much taxation actually results in declining revenues. Carrying this over to KU basketball, is too tough a schedule actually creating a point of diminishing returns? Have we reached a point where the gauntlet is too tough, too demanding and too steep to produce positive results? I’m not saying we need to throttle a bunch of patsies, but the season is grueling and long as it is. It would be nice to catch our collective breaths once in a while with a blow out win against a nobody. So, instead of losing to Temple by 25, we beat up on the Red Hat Society All-Stars, expend less energy, walk out with a W and we don’t get beat up in the process.
My only other major concern is the OAD era. IMO, one of two things has to give here. We either go full bore into it and Self changes his coaching philosophy or we go for 3 and 4 year kids who will be here long enough to learn the complexities of Self’s coaching system. Right now we’ve got two competing ideals butting heads and it’s causing some dissonance.
All in all, I’m still bummed about yesterday and it’ll take me a bit of time to move past the loss as I tend to take these harder than I probably should. I keep telling myself to invest less emotionally during the games, but I’ve continually failed on that front for as long as I can recall. In my real life, I can do something to change my circumstances. As a fan, I’m totally powerless to change anything about the outcome and that’s what gets me the most.
Thanks to all you guys and gals for offering a huge shoulder to cry on and to the creators of this forum for the opportunity to speak freely about all things KU. It truly is good therapy.
Rock Chalk to everyone!
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Your right, I think the margin of talent in highly ranked players to unranked players has changed dramatically. But it also depends on the team, and the coaching, and the style of play that teams play. Kentucky might finish a perfect season with all Top 20 kids. We can hate them all we want but those are kids that have bought into a defensive approach and the kids believe in winning and being dominate.
How can Wessel outplay Ellis? Effort, urgency, aggressiveness, and a shear will. Perry is a great player but he’s a softie, he doesn’t show emotion, he’s not vocal like we need upperclassmen to be. That’s just not his personality, and in the games that matter a personality is needed that your team can rally together with.
What KU lacked was a leader yesterday. Mason early in the game looked like he was going to give VanVleet all he could handle. As soon as he got into foul trouble, the life came out of him. Going into next year we need someone to step up and be the leader we have lacked. Without it, it doesn’t matter how many players we return the end result will be the same.
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I have thought that about our schedule the last 2 years that its getting extremely too difficult. I understand why Self is scheduling like he is. When your in Kansas you don’t have 10 in-state recruits to choose from so he’s marketing KU by going to the different markets for games across the country.
But then you also read about how he could have had Ron Baker or Buddy Hield but instead whiffed on higher rated players. Recruiting is a fickle thing, finding the right balance and the right players is always a crapshoot.
As far as our schedule this year you could argue that the gauntlet of the non-con schedule set this team up to be a tired team in March. Next year the Big 12 will be just as difficult, maybe even harder depending on roster changes. Your looking at 5-6 teams who will all have veteran teams. I haven’t seen our schedule yet but I imagine its not going to be much easier.
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@HighEliteMajor HEM, always appreciate your posts. But all year long, it seemed to me that Selden had regressed from a year ago. Also thought Greene didn’t develop much, although that may have had to do with Self’s mid-season remarks. In retrospect, it might have been better for Greene to transfer and AW III to stay. He might have been happy getting the number of minutes Brannen got this year. And probably better D. Never thought Cliff developed much.
They came out of high school highly rated but–if they would re-rate those classes–not so sure they would be ranked so high now or at any time during this year.
I like Self a lot. But I think Danny and Dooley are sorely missed.
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Agreed. In the NBA they talk of the rookie wall. The freshman wall is a reality too. So, combine a challenging offensive system with young players who are not used to playing so many games and a schedule rated possibly the toughest in the history of scheduling in the RPI era and you’ve got a recipe for tired legs and bodies at the end of the season. Throw in an ineligibility here, a bum knee there, a back-up player getting starters minutes and you’ve got yourself one volatile mix at a critical time of the season. Unfortunately that concoction blew up in our faces yesterday. Not an excuse, mind you, just the reality of it.
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I posted about this back in January. Continuity is killing KU. We have nothing resembling the KU teams of 2007-2013. Those are guys that lived and died with KU ball. We do not have that anymore.
Second, I love Bill Self, but losing Danny Manning and Joe Dooley has been the death knell of this program. If KU is to get back to where they rightfully should be–where we expect them every year–Self and his b-ball philosophy needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. College basketball is changing. Shooting the three ball is the spread offense in college football. You either adapt or get left behind. I truly think Bill Self is getting exposed. I don’t want to say he’s been getting out-coached by guys like Marshall and Hoiberg because it’s more of a philosophy discrepancy, but maybe those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. I certainly watched him get out-coached by Travis Ford (woof!) and Bruce Webber (woof). But whatever it is, it all comes back to the big guy (Self). Not adjusting your system to meet your team’s potential is dumb. I don’t really know how else to describe it. Why didn’t we play zone last year? Ever? We were an incompetent M2M defense, but we just wouldn’t switch last year. Why? We had the best shooting team Self’s ever had this year; he said so himself. Why didn’t we utilize that? Why did Self feel the need to sabotage that? Because Self and his philosophy got the crap kicked out of it last night by “fool’s gold.”
I don’t mean this as an indictment on Self. I want Self coaching KU. Without question. But the greats make adjustments. That’s what makes them great. Look at Coach K this year. Show that you’re diverse. Show that you’re capable of making changes. I already wrote extensively about the OAD problem and the lack of continuity, as well as the burden that is the Big 12 streak. But to me, the coaching problem is just as glaring. Replacing Joe Dooley with Jerrance Howard was a recruiting move. Period. Self needs good in-game coaches around him. He needs guys that can develop players because what he has right now is not doing anything. We have some nice pieces in place going forward, but I think if we don’t land Diello AND Maker, next year will end much like this year because the pieces need to be put in place for the future as well as the present. Because Self has clearly shown this year that he wasn’t willing to change and adjust. If we can’t play through the post, we are doomed.
As always, RCJH. We’ll all be watching.
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We can contemplate mechanics on this team until the end of time. We will never solve why we lost because of mechanics… injuries… or players ineligible. The FACT from the game was WSU wanted it more. That is what it all boiled down to.
And it wasn’t just because they carried a chip since we won’t play them. March comes along and we usually get upset by a team carrying a chip either they had it already or formed it because they had something to prove to beat a blue blood.
This is THE problem moving forward for Kansas and Self. Nothing else. We can choose not to address the real problem and keep going the way we are going… spending more money on recruiting than any other D1 school in America. Maybe we can reach the pinnacle 10 McDs AAs necessary to overcome the desire of teams full of juco players. Maybe. We are following in the footsteps of Calipari. Can we recruit our way out of having to really address the issue, which is motivation?
I’m not going to blast our players. They had a great season for what they were. They had to do it with their own personal motivation and they didn’t have enough help to lift them further. I know they are feeling the pain today, just like all of us.
I think the answer is we don’t give these guys enough identity as Jayhawks. These guys aren’t going out and visiting the grave stone of Naismith… or delving deep into Kansas history. It isn’t the focus with Self, to help these guys get their own chip developed because they are Jayhawks. We aren’t supposed to lose… ever!
We all think these guys some how get anointed into the Jayhawk wisdom by just showing up on campus. It isn’t happening.
The game I saw yesterday was Kansas playing tight. Feeling pressure and not executing. That isn’t play from the heart, but from the mind. Until we teach these guys to invest more of their hearts, then we will continue to fall to low seeds in March, because we will always face teams that play with their hearts.
Go ahead and blast me for my opinion. And good luck with the thoughts we can recruit our way into another trophy.
It ain’t gonna happen.
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One more thing. The conference streak. It’s nice to talk about but I’m not so sure it’s good. Unless they go back to the time when you had to win conference just to get in the tournament.
I think some of those teams that come in after not being conference champs might feel they have something to prove. Much like UCONN did last year. Or like one of the ACC teams could almost every year. Or like Texas Western did back in 1966. Seems like sometimes they come in with a chip on their shoulder.
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@MoonwalkMafia IMO we went down to a team that made the extra pass to find the open man when we doubled up the penetrator. Our perimeter def could not react quick enough to prevent the open looks that Baker & Weasel got & give them credit, they canned em. Selden simply has the worst on ball def footwork I have ever seen in the Bill Self era, period and yesterday they flat took it to him. We traded too many 3’s for 2’s, & got no help from officiating. When Perry & Frank were hurt, we never re grouped. The momentum before half changed & was uphill the remainder. Self actually did try throwing some curveballs-press, traps, glimpses of zones, but players execute the plan & they failed. I only wished that Bill had used Mick in the first half for Perry or LL & had him warmed up for the 2nd. HM can ball, & I seriously doubt if WSU did much scouting or prep for him no more than he had played this year. LL had 10+ reb but 2-3 pts & that didn’t just cut it. Monday morning were all geniuses but HM came to play every time he hit the floor, always went after the 50/50 balls, & I posted pre game that he should get minutes the first half because not only could he protect the rim, but could make some shots. Clearly to me that was a trick left in the bag & another advantage that we failed to explore.
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@globaljaybird To me Hunter is a lot like Withey. Sitting on the bench even though you see he can do good things in limited minutes. What I can’t decide is Bill using him right and limiting minutes to make him look better than he is (keeping him from being exposed); or is he underutilizing a talent? When Cliff got more minutes we all saw why he was sitting, could the same be true of Hunter?
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The issues we saw yesterday are the same ones that ended last season early. We let an inferior team beat us because they were able to dictate the pace and play of the game. That should never happen to a team with the talent of KU.
This is Kansas. We have been one of the 10-15 most talented teams in the country basically every single year since 2007. We will never lack for talent. But when we run into certain styles, we fail to adjust and, as a result, we get beat.
The NCAA tournament is all about being able to adapt quickly and play a number of styles at a high level. Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith made a great point on Saturday about being able to win in a variety of ways, and how that makes all the difference in March when you have to beat different teams with different officials and different styles on a short preparation schedule.
Coach Self wants to win a certain way, so he tries to play that way every night. You hear it in his comments - “play our way”, “play our game”, “run our stuff”, etc. Yesterday, WSU was ready for all of our stuff. I think WSU knew our sets as well as we did. We couldn’t beat WSU with X’s and O’s yesterday, because they knew our X’s and O’s.
Thankfully, we had talent, so we should have been alright. Mason started off the game by killing Van Vleet off the dribble. It was pretty obvious that Mason felt like he could get to any spot he wanted against Van Vleet. Unfortunately, foul trouble sent Mason to the bench, but KU started the game by just exploiting matchups, which is where they had the huge advantage.
We have seen Perry dominate undersized guys his whole career. Heck, most of his really big games have been against undersized front lines. But Marshall Jedi mind tricked Perry by covering him with his high school buddy and teammate. Perry should have had a huge game, at least commanding double teams on every possession as he punished Wessel inside. Instead, Perry was pretty pedestrian.
The key is to find and recruit guys with an edge. The team won in 08 because Mario and Sherron had a nasty edge to them. Tyshawn and TRob had that edge. The Morris twins had that edge. Ben McLemore was a really gifted athlete, but nobody would say that he had a nasty edge to him. He’s a really nice guy. Same with Wiggins, although NBA life is giving him a bit of an edge because he can’t succeed at that level without it. Same with Oubre. Definitely with Ellis. It isn’t talent or effort. It’s saying I will dominate the guy across from me because I am simply better. It’s Frank Mason looking at Fred Van Vleet and saying “this guy can’t guard me, and the fact they put him on me is openly disrespectful.”
If Perry had looked at Wessel yesterday and said, “I’m an all conference post player and you’re putting a guy four inches shorter than me on me one on one?” Perry should have been offended at the audacity of Gregg Marshall to even pretend that Wessel could handle him in the post. But Wessel was counting on Perry not going after Wessel time after time until he crushed his spirit.
You will see the difference if WSU faces UK. Whoever Wessel guards will attack him, much like they did last year when Wessel posted a line of 0 points, o rebounds, o steals, o blocks, o assists, 2 missed free throws, 2 personal fouls and giving up 8 points in just 3 minutes. UK destroyed Wessel last year and by doing so wrecked his confidence. They did the same to Kadeem Coleby, WSU’s starting center last year, who played just 7 minutes and posted only a missed shot and a personal foul. That’s two of WSU’s role players that contributed absolutely nothing in a close game because they were attacked until they were taken out of the game.
Compare that to yesterday, when Wessel hit four huge threes and Zach Brown had 7 points in 13 very productive minutes. KU let WSU’s role players get confidence by not attacking them, and paid a huge price because those guys were productive.
Bill Self must embrace matchup advantages, or he will always be vulnerable to early round upsets.
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@JhawkAlum You know, I didnt really want to vent this time. But, I will anyways. Im actually just going to ask a lot of questions that I hope some of the more experienced basketball fans on here could answer for me. @HighEliteMajor @jaybate-1.0
Coach Self is 1 - 3 vs the MVC in the tourney!!! What the hell is up with that!?
Did Coach Self get out coached yesterday?
Did the refs swallow their whistles yesterday or what?
Everyone was talking about Perry getting hit yesterday, I didnt think it was more than incidental contact. Was it? Should it have been a flagrant?
It seemed to me that our boys were playing hard but they were having a bad game. Perry, Frank, Devonte, Lucas, Oubre, Traylor, those guys were all fighting hard, it seemed to me. Was that really the case?
Did Coach Self let them come out flat for this one?
Maybe he didnt amp them for that game bcuz he thought they didnt need it??
Closing thoughts; Our boys are young, most of them will be back next season and will absolutely be stronger, more experienced and tougher, more apt to play with a chip on their shoulder every game and finally develop that Killer Instinct again. I have a very good feeling about KU next season, especially if Bragg turns out to be a stud and Cliff comes back and we get at least one more high level recruit to fill in for Oubre in case he bails for the league, which I dont think he should. He got schooled by a tougher, shorter, less athletic and more experienced player last night. How’s he gonna make the cut in the big leagues?
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@dylans You may have nailed it, but from a matchup perspective we were clearly slower at virtually every position except Mason vs Van Fleet. HM is definitively quicker than LL, plus with Cliff gone & limited depth in the frontcourt, you simply must play all your cards. Four out & one in being Mick, I thought we should have tried it about the 12 minute mark, but it may have been moot because we couldn’t buy a stop on defense. Yeah maybe HM isn’t yet tough enough for that level of a big boy game cause it was a friggin war, we just don’t know. Remember he did play a lot of minutes at Arkansas in the SEC, but the final loss of the season loss is bad enough without failing to explore all of your options. JMO but that’s a huge disappointment for me. Pull out all the stops & go for it. Nothing else worked, so why not.
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@Lulufulu tekele cotton is a super athletic freak. He’s had dunks on top 10.
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@justanotherfan PHOF !!
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I’m certainly not the analyst that some of you are. That’s why I enjoy this board so much.
But it seemed to me that once WSU got the lead and control of the game, they kept on attacking, didn’t just try to preserve the lead. Kept shooting threes. Seems that all season long, when KU would get a lead, they’d try to slow it down and preserve it. Blew some large leads throughout the year.
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@justanotherfan Self isn’t going to change. He has never EVER exploited matchup advantages. Once every three or four years he’ll adopt something new if he sees some other coach (i.e., Izzo) have success with it. Maybe Hunter would get to play against an opponent’s 6’6" center if he could hang around two or three more years.
Frankly, I’m not really too excited about next year. Other than a couple bright spots, I don’t expect it to be much different than this year or last. Same coaching philosophy. Same inconsistent players. Same headcase problems with too many of them.
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@globaljaybird
We were slower with our original lineup of Lucas-Ellis-Oubre-Selden-Mason vs. Carter-Wessel-Cotton-Baker-Van Vleet because Carter, Wessel and Cotton all had the speed advantage.
However, if we switch to a lineup of Ellis-Oubre-Selden-Graham-Mason, suddenly we maintain a size advantage at 3 of 5 spots, but we also have a speed advantage at every spot except the Cotton-Selden matchup. Trying to play 2 big guys burned us because we sacrificed speed but didn’t capitalize on our size advantage by destroying the smaller players inside.
Instead, they hurt us because they forced our bigs into awkward situations either guarding on the perimeter or pick and rolls that forced our bigs to make decisions on whether to hedge on the ballhandler or open up to let the defender through. On at least three different plays yesterday, a KU big (either Traylor or Lucas) ended up in no man’s land on a screen play that allowed Van Vleet to turn the corner, or hit a wide open three. Baker also got a couple open looks on that type of action. Going small would have prevented that because you could just switch that action instead of trying to decide whether to hedge or open up.
Those are the types of adjustments I would like to see Self make. In a one game playoff, you can’t wait to see if guys figure it out. Once they have hit a couple shots on that action, you have to make a change, either strategic or personnel, to combat that. Self waited too long to switch personnel. It wasn’t apparent whether they made a strategic switch and just couldn’t execute it, or if they stuck with the same principles throughout, but ultimately it should have been a personnel change (going small) to improve the defense.
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@justanotherfan Swish…
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Nothing new for me to add that hasn’t been better said already, but feel the need to say a few words anyways…
Wondering why the tall Hunter, who’s been playing better ball lately didn’t play more when some players didn’t have their A game going.
Liked seeing Lucas start and thought he did a good job.
BG looked lost, again, and really poor on defense.
Seldon was a no show… again.
How many Shocker players were a no show?
Shockers wanted it more and like someone mentioned above, this is as good for them as going to the FF.
Refs put the hurt on us early. Not whining, not the main reason we lost, but definitely a factor in the mix.
Can’t say I’m too surprised at the outcome. Accidentally somehow switched from time lapse DVR delay during halftime to 4 minutes left. At first it was Oh No, then it was, So glad I didn’t have to watch all of the second half.
Disappointed again with an early exit. But liked the stats I saw on some thread here that shows we’re in elite company with 3 sweet 16s in five years, A nice perspective.
A little of the amazing sheen of HCBS is wearing off, but still think he did a great job with what he had to work with, if a bit slow to respond sometimes. Still a hall of famer and no one I’d rather have as our coach.
Glad this board isn’t like the other one, sniping and attacking and sour grapes. Thanks to all the intelligent posters, I’ve learned much about the game reading you all.
Last and certainly not least, I am really, really stoked for how good we are going to be next year. I guess I say that almost every year - tho I didn’t after last year. But I got an unnaturally good feeling for our potential next season.
Take care all.
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@DanR As they said in tropic thunder “never go full retard” One thing about HCBS is that he is consistent and that will keep him employed until he decides to leave.
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I was under the impression that the Ellis elbow was a flagrant. Not because I thought VanVleet had any malicious intent but because the rule states it that way. Any elbow or blow to the head is supposed to be monitored, I didn’t see them go to the monitor because usually that delays the game a few minutes. This same play with slightly different context happened in the VCU/Ohio St game. And they gave the VCU player a flagrant even though his intent was to score the basket. Just goes to show you how 2 different officiating crews can screw up the same call in a game.
The ref’s were certainly not the reason we lost but it did seem that WSU was allowed to get away with far more aggressive play than KU was. I hate when ref’s call the game too tight but then forget to call the obvious ones as well.
It’s kind of like West Virginia. You know they are going to foul you, they are basically told to foul. But in the course of fouling they may get 5 turnovers from aggressive play and over time that sticks with the refs. Now the snowball affect happens that they can get away with more because the ref’s don’t get to see them being unaggressive. KU wasn’t the aggressor yesterday once they blew the lead. Wichita used their defense to get away with whatever they wanted.
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Since you asked,
I’m venting about the RPI, the strength of schedule. From now on, let’s schedule the Oklahoma City School of Horseshoeing and the Andale School For the Blind (among others). Let’s be #302 on the RPI. Roll over a bunch of teams by 50 points (just so we remember how to) and get some confidence.
I’m venting about the Big 12 Conference Championship. Lose it. Intentionally if you have to. Is there anything more embarrassing than winning the Sacred Big 12 title and then losing the second game of the NCAA tourney? Screw it. There are 6 UCLA fans that give a crap if their 13 titles in a row stand. Everybody else in the world could not care less.
I’m venting about the type of players we’ve been recruiting lately (not ALL of them, but way too many) who don’t give a crap about KU. Who know nothing of our history. Who are not putting forth maximum effort all the time.
I’m venting about a team that when the season is over, makes me not even care. I’d like to go back to crying, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff. Now, I don’t care any more than the players or coaches do.
Thanks for asking me to vent. I’m better now.
Come on football season.
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@BeddieKU23 Me too-any contact above the shoulders is to be reviewed…
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I wish I had believed my post after the Temple game after I wrote “I’m done”. Would have saved a lot of frustration.
I’m not sure why this team bothered me more than other teams that fell short but I’ll try.
A lack of dominant wins. Every once in a while it’s nice just to watch the boys roll. It didn’t happen all year except with a couple of the preseason/early season ‘practice’ games.
Out of control plays. Yesterday Traylor corralled a loose ball after we missed a shot. Before he stops a second to think, he throws the ball to what he thinks is an open guy. Of course it misses the mark and we lose another possession. We made so many of these types of plays yesterday and really all season. Ball security was not valued this season. That needs to change.
Our players are not passionate. Earlier in the season Oubre got T-d up for something stupid. He intentionally bumped an opponent, might have been OK State. I didn’t like it, but it was a rare instance this year. The Morris twins were tough and didn’t let teams push us around. We don’t seem to have that toughness. @Jaybate 1.0 made note of it yesterday when someone elbowed Perry in the nose. We shouldn’t have taken that.
I really don’t know much about coaching except that I coached a 5th grade team to a league championship once. Bill Self had his worst year coaching at KU in my very limited opinion. The lack of PT for Mickelson stands out to me, particularly after Cliff left. We’ve had two subpar years in a row, last year was not any better in my mind, and it’s worrisome to me that he peaked in 2008, and we’ll not reach that height again, similar to Izzo who seemed destined to many more rings but really hasn’t come close since winning in 2000.
The assistant coaches are more recruiters than coaches. Do we miss Danny? Sure seemed like it yesterday when a shorter team still dominated our team.
Finally a few of the players are to blame, for lack of a better word:
Selden is as enigmatic of any Jayhawk I can remember.
Greene, a head case who should be a headliner on this team, but instead may not ever play significant minutes at KU.
Hoping for a nice off season with hope for a return to our normal dominance.
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@justanotherfan : Bill Self must embrace matchup advantages, or he will always be vulnerable to early round upsets.
As you well know, I wouldn’t hold my breath on this happening. For the sake of my family I’ve stopped screaming expletives at the television in hopes of exploiting obvious mis-matches from our team. How many times have we finally switched up our defense or applied a press too late?? Bob Huggins deservedly picked up the Big12 COY this year because he was able to do more with less than any other coach in the conference. He did that with less talent (sans Staten) and more players (I think he’s played 12-13 guys on average).
As for those asking for new blood in the assistant coaching spot(s): IMO you’re absolutely right. I’m just not sure “Snacks” is delivering. Yes he was the one that brought us Cliff, but he also brought us embarrassment (for his own actions and Cliffs ordeal^1). Since I’m not privy to practice and who did the game plan for which games this year I can’t figure what else he’s brought.
As for recruits next year, this is what I see.
Norm is after Jaylen Brown, Cheick Diallo, and Brandon Ingram and he already landed Bragg.
Kurtis is after Ivan Rabb, Thon Maker, and Stephen Zimmerman.
Snacks is after Malik Newman.
Snacks is after only one guy. And chances are he won’t get him. Does this mean Snacks is going to “take another coaching position that well allow for him to chase his dream of one day being a HC” this off season? I surely hope so. We need someone with the desire to coach.
There are a few problems with our current list prospects. From what I’ve found out searching around the chances are we will strike out on them all but maybe, MAYBE, one of them. There still is a chance we get Diallo (and I hope we do and he doesn’t end up in Ames) but really he’s the only one showing up as high interest on the majority of the sites.
The other problem is, like someone else said above, we’re recruiting the wrong kids to fit our system. I’d rather not go after the top kids that don’t fit our h/l system unless we change up our current system to better utilize said greater talent. If we want to be a team that plays strictly h/l then only recruit those guys. I don’t care if they’re ranked 1 or 51, if they’re who the coaches identify as being the best recruit for the h/l then throw the damn house at them to get them to Lawrence. We nearly beat a UK team in 2012 with guys that fit the h/l system perfectly. Withey (36) and TRob (31) weren’t super recruits. In 08 Shady (16), Sasha (34), Cole (30), Darnell (54) weren’t OADs. We do better with T(hree)AD 30-60ranks and T(wo)AD 16-30ranks. Those are the guys that stick around and buy in to the system. How often does anyone think Wiggins will come back? Ben, a two year guy, loves KU and comes back. Same for a lot of the guys that poured their heart and soul into being Jayhawks. And don’t take this the wrong way. I think/thought Wiggins was great, personally I loved having him as a Jayhawk, but he’s not h/l and he wasn’t all in. Same can be said of Oubre, Greene. We recruited guys that don’t fit our system and for one reason or another can’t, won’t, didn’t buy in. Being the number one recruiting class would be great. What would be greater is getting a good recruiting class of guys that will plug into our schemes and make for a great team.
Here’s to hoping we can figure it all out before tWG this summer. Nothing would be as embarrassing as laying a big fat egg before the NCAA season even starts!!!
^1 - I’ve seen on other sites that it’s believed Michigan State backed off of Cliff after finding something troubling out. Izzo made remarks about middlemen. Obviously something was fishy way before Cliff inked with KU. Which is troubling to me. Maybe this is new news to some here in Jayhawk land. Here’s a link to enlighten you. Click here
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@nuleafjhawk & @HighEliteMajor I’m with you on the apathy, but I reached that point after last year’s tournament debacle. I remember thinking after a few early games last season, “Wow, this team is gonna be SO good!” And they just never developed into the team that they should have been with that talent level.
And the Stanford game was the final straw, when Joel had to sit and Bill still insisted on running his offense through…wait for it…Tarik Black. A game plan that produced five shots for…wait for it…ANDREW FREAKIN’ WIGGINS!!! Cuz, “We’re gonna run our stuff.”
That was it for me. I no longer invest myself emotionally in this program. I’m tired of feeling like someone died after another tournament upset. I’ll admit, I did get excited after the first Texas game. I thought maybe this team was coming together. But then…
And then again, at halftime of the Big12 tourney Iowa State game. After a good second half against Baylor and a good first half v ISU, I again thought, “Maybe…”
And in our first round NCAA game, the first preliminary game I’ve felt comfortable in for a long time (remember being tied at halftime with Eastern Kentucky last year?) when we got our 3game back on track. I thought, 'Wow, maybe that longwinded poster is right–maybe we can just turn on our 3game whenever we want." And maybe Bill was holding something back for the tournament. Maybe he really is… A Riverboat Gambler!!! lol
But no, Same ol’ Same, Same ol’ Bill. Another tournament upset. Another team that almost everyone thinks should have been better.
But it doesn’t feel like a day of mourning, because it’s been going on for a while now. This doesn’t seem like a sudden death, like UNI & VCU & Michigan did. It seems more like watching a program slipping away. Although it’s only been 3 years since our last title game appearance, it seems like our program’s relevance in the National Title picture is withering away.
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Varied opinions here. FWIW, the inconsistencies throughout the season gave me a reasoned approach to how far this team was going to go and I was chastised for saying we wouldn’t make the Sweet 16 and told I wasn’t a fan for not “cheering” for them. Reality is this team did not ever put back-to-back dominant games (or even back-to-back halves - except the game I saw here in Austin). I really hated reading quotes from players saying they weren’t ready yesterday. WTF? That attitude right there across the board with both the team/coaches has been the most disappointing.
One good thing - I now have lots of time to tend to my garden (have 60 tomato plants already in the ground) and be outside to enjoy this wonderful time of year.
Rock Chalk. Catch you later.
