Cliff
-
Sad, sad deal. Dumb dumb situation. Understandable, perhaps, but DUMB from the getgo. The cap situation should have warned Jayhawk fans that trouble was on the wind. I feel for Cliff. He needed two years in the program, probably much more than we needed his slowly developing collegiate game, as it turns out. A healthier and stronger Cliff, spending a second year in Lawrence, most probably would have moved into NBA lottery consideration. In his current predicament, he will be fortunate to be selected somewhere between 15th and 21st in this June’s draft. Guaranteed multimillions of dollars most probably have dwindled to a few million, at best, his first five years as a professional. His skills most probably will undergo extensive developmental time in the D League. Franchises will not risk time and millions to cope with future injuries or retarded development. Understandable complexity, I say, because hasty bird-in-hand greed is almost impossible to turn down for the families of many players who live in poverty or near poverty. Without one hell of a bundle of good luck, Cliff will sail off into the sunset as an American Sports Tragedy. Opportunity thwarted and denied. A very tough bullet for Bill Self and Jayhawk fandom to bite.
-
@brooksmd Yeah,ya gotta give them the news to either step up or step out. I said this very thing a couple of days back. If that contract was consummated on a non-recourse premise, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on cause Cliff has no future earnings they can garnish. Hell, he or the borrower may die in their sleep tonight. I’m under the impression that some family member hooked Cliff into co-signing on a potential contract & yes he is done if he has. He should not have been compromised by his family. Also making him ineligible to be able continue to work towards receiving this “potential” contract by filing these public documents by the lender, they may have damaged his ability to earn a contract, so they may be essentially screwed too. JMO, but I hope they are. Credit is just waaaaaaay too easy for people to come by. When I was a kid & first married the rule of 78ths was still in effect & all car, trailer, boat, & mobile home financing was recourse-just like the Lizard Lick guys-you don’t pay, we come after the property then you. If you bought a house you had to be squeaky clean, have 20% down, & obligate not a dollar more than 25% of your income towards a mortgage-virtuallyA-1credit. My, my, how the American Dream has become a damn sham…
-
@globaljaybird lizard lick? Should I ask?
-
@drgnslayr said:
If any of you caught Self’s interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process.
Doesn’t help that Cliff is the crown jewel recruit from Snacks. Everything surrounding this is getting more tarnished. I agree with @REHawk that the Karma from the Cap incident is catching up.
The only glimmer I see on the horizon is that the hope that none of these rules apply to the World Games and Cliff might be eligible for that.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Certainly you may ask. By all means miss lady-That’s a ref to buy here pay here of this day & age-recourse finance. The seller co signs the buyer & gets paid his commission on delivery, of the property exchange & signing of the contract. basically in advance, of the fulfillment. Should the buyer default, the seller is obligated for payment to the lender. So then he must pay back not only his commission which was paid in advance, but also the entire loan he recoursed (co signed) to the lender. Then he retrieves the property if he can & tries to re sell said property, cars, trucks, etc; to recover his loss. That’s what recourse is- Mean & nasty when it needs to be. We didn’t do it often but back in the 60’s & 70’s it was a necessary way of life. We repossessed a few through the years, but it was always a major endeavor. Never got shot at, but was cursed many times.
-
@bskeet I didn’t think about Cliff and the games! What a mess!
-
@globaljaybird thx!!!
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Like the Germans say, Danke’ Schönen (Donkey shit) …LOL !!
-
If Cliff is ruled ineligible by the NCAA then I would rather we not take him with the team to World Games. My hope is we can fill his scholarship with one of the remaining top bigs that were are currently recruiting. Unfortunately Thon wouldn’t be allowed to play for us at WGs so if he commits and we had an open roster spot I would rather it go to a more experienced former big that could help teach our current bigs if their current NBA club would allow it.
-
@Kip_McSmithers Trob!
-
Remember back when we were giving nicknames to the players?
After “Goner” Frankamp, we have “Off the” Cliff.
Self has said if Cliff doesn’t get cleared for the NCAAs he probably won’t get cleared for the first exhibition game either. To me, that’s SelfSpeak for “do what it takes to play in the NCAAs or move on down the road.”
Now he adds “We’re basically moving on.” Translation: because Cliff is.
Personally, I think the lawyer hired by the family may be right: damage control. If there is a real problem, why help the NCAA prove it? Stonewall and prevent NCAA sanctions.
Self must give lip service to full cooperation with the NCAA, whether he means it or not. I think he does, both on principle and as someone who doesn’t give up easily.
-
@globaljaybird I thought is was “donkey chains”
-
@globaljaybird You and I have a few things in common. Never got shot at but three times was bull rushed. I guess they expected me to run? Each time I just stood there letting them have the first shot and each time they stopped a pace away and just talked.
-
“Personally, I think the lawyer hired by the family may be right: damage control. If there is a real problem, why help the NCAA prove it? Stonewall and prevent NCAA sanctions.”
The only damage possible for Cliff is to lose his eligibility. Whether they help the NCAA or not, he won’t become eligible again until they have answers. His eligibility right now isn’t being controlled by the NCAA, it is with Kansas. Kansas pulled him off the team. Kansas already stated he won’t get back on the team without a ruling from the NCAA. The ruling won’t come without cooperation. So, essentially, Cliff is done without cooperation. The damage is done now because they won’t cooperate.
Self is merely stating that the damage will be permanent if he doesn’t regain eligible status for March Madness. He has, essentially, laid down a deadline.
Cliff’s family stepping up now would be more of a gesture for the team. To give them resolution before the tourney. I like what Self said about their mistake last year with JoJo in March… planning for his return. This time, they’ve moved on and if, by chance, Cliff comes available then he’ll just be inserted as “an extra cookie.”
This is a sticky situation. I’m glad we have Self. He’s playing it right, not only tactically, but with his comments to the press.
-
Self knows he’s not getting back Cliff. He’s seen the reports, he’s probably got first hand knowledge of who’s cooperating and who’s not and so he’s come out with the statement how they can plan for the tournament differently knowing he’s not apart of the plan. JoJo must have really had a timeline they thought he could hit and missed it, and with the early exit made it look even worse.
I’m okay with not having him honestly. At least we can roll with a 3rd year Soph. & and 4th year Junior. Cliff might have a talent edge on both but at this point of the season talent doesn’t always win. Hunter & Lucas give effort all the time and that’s something Cliff hadn’t learned consistently.
What bothers me even more about this whole situation is it took place before the season even began. I don’t buy the ignorance in this day and age that the whole Alexander family/ Cliff included didn’t know that meeting an agent would raise red flags. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that you can be deemed ineligible for taking a bagel from someone else. So becoming public record for getting a loan from a agent firm or whatever it is they are being investigated for is basically going to end your eligibility for that year. They all know what they got involved with. It’s a dumb NCAA rule but a rule until its changed.
-
“Cliff included didn’t know that meeting an agent would raise red flags”
Self covered this in his interview. He said all of these guys meet agents, handlers, and other people with an angle. The key is whether or not they take a benefit, and to know what a benefit is.
The NCAA isn’t going to investigate because Cliff or his family met with an agent. But if there was a benefit distributed in any form, or a contract signed then it becomes a problem, warranting an investigation and decision… But Cliff should have known and he should have instructed his family not to do anything without vetting it through Self and Kansas.
-
Your right they should have known. They should have known if they did take a benefit that this would affect everything. I’m troubled by the whole thing to understand exactly why.
-
" I’m okay with not having him honestly. At least we can roll with a 3rd year Soph. & and 4th year Junior. Cliff might have a talent edge on both but at this point of the season talent doesn’t always win. Hunter & Lucas give effort all the time and that’s something Cliff hadn’t learned consistently."
Me too. These 2 guys play their butts of every time out & Cliff, well, who knows? I cant help but remember how Cole had that monster game in 08 vs NC & Hansborough. One of these guys gets the right matchup in the dance & history could repeat itself-not likely, but teams have not seen a lot of these guys & a short time to prepare could get someone torched. Just hope it’s not us. If Ellis comes back strong, we could make a run. If not, well…Plus with recruiting right after the season this allows far more advantage to HCBS knowing full well that Cliff is done.
-
Kansas would have to be crazy to play Cliff knowing there is an investigation afoot; no team in his right mind would. What worries me is that by the time KU was informed of the investigation, the family had already retained and attorney which probably does not come cheap and more likely is being paid by the same agent that made the “alleged” loan in the first place.
If the family had nothing to hide or even if they were led astray by an unscrupulous agent, IMHO, they would have contacted KU immediately and would have been agreeable to meet with the NCAA; the fact that neither happened would appear to indicate that they knew all along that what they were doing was not “kosher” but the allure of a new car, or whatever is they got, was more important than Cliff’s future. If there is one player that could have used a second year in college is Cliff; I just don’t see him as a lottery pick and based on what I have seen throughout the season, late first round might be the most optimistic outlook, although I believe he night be now in second round/Development/League/China territory. The place where he could have showcased his talent and impressed scouts (NCAA Tournament) seems now like a highly unlikely scenario.
-
@drgnslayr Suppose Cliff is ineligible because of what happened in August. Why would he be ineligible starting now? Why wouldn’t he be ineligible starting in August, especially if he knew of, or was a party to, whatever was done?
Derrick Rose was declared ineligible retroactively and Memphis had its season vacated.
Why couldn’t this happen to KU? Isn’t there a chance, however slight, that our Conference title streak might be in danger?
If that is the case, there is more at stake than Cliff’s eligibility going forward, and the lawyer could be doing our past a favor by stonewalling.
-
The clear implication was that Memphis knew Rose was ineligible early on but played him anyway. KU, on the other hand, did the right thing and as soon as they found out about a potential issue he did no play anymore. TTBOMK, no one at KU knew about what was happening in Chicago, so it would be unrealistic to expect a school to act on information it did not have or even suspected.
I will guess that KU attorneys are busy at work protecting the interests of the program.
-
@JayHawkFanToo said:
The clear implication was that Memphis knew Rose was ineligible early on but played him anyway.
Ah, didn’t know that. Thanks.
-
@globaljaybird Sweet memories you brought back of Cole taking it to Hansborough. The look on Hansborough’s face was priceless. Like who is this guy and doesn’t he know who I am?
-
@brooksmd a favorite game!!! We were all shocked. I love Cole!
-
Jayhawkfantoo has the correct reply. Memphis knew about Rose and not only played him, but participated in the cover up.
I’m of the opinion that Kansas will not go down for this. They reacted properly IMMEDIATELY upon hearing from the NCAA and has already gone on the record as having no prior knowledge. Unless that is a lie, they shouldn’t be punished.
A great “ace in the hole” for Kansas is the fact that we have perhaps the very best compliance program in the country. If my memory serves me right, our program is a model program that has received a lot of praise by the NCAA. That means they have also done a good job in communicating the rules and what is proper and improper behavior to recruits and players. And of course, this is all documented to a high legal standard.
Kansas does more than talk lip service about compliance.
Even with all of that in place, problems can still arise, as we see here.
Personally… I’m not losing sleep over this story. I’ve already put it to bed that Cliff is done with Kansas, and Kansas will retain #11… and in one more year, will bump that to #12!
My only concern is recruiting another post player to replace Cliff.
RCJH!
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Had to go over to youtube and relive that.
-
@brooksmd I was at that game with my dad with great seats-paid a ton of cash for the tickets but it was worth it. I remember being worried Psycho-T would explode when Cole went in. It was just the opposite. What a delightful outcome for the minutes he put in.
-
@JayhawkRock78 that’s really cool you were there!!
-
@JayhawkRock78 I think a few people felt the same.
-
If I were ever subject to an NCAA investigation, I would not cooperate, either.
All you have to know about the NCAA and credibility is this:
The NCAA restored Penn State’s record books of wins previously vacated during the time when a football coach on staff was committing criminal acts at the university and taking advantage of young children under the auspices of charity and his role at the university.
The NCAA has deleted all mentions of Michigan basketball and the Final Fours achieved by the “Fab Five” because some of those players may have accepted “impermissible benefits.”
So, just for anyone keeping track at home
Criminal Acts by an Assistant Coach = OK, wins restored to program.
Accepting Money by Athletes = Terrible, all wins and accomplishments deleted from the record books.
Seems someone may have their priorities mixed up.
-
@justanotherfan Swish !!
-
@DanR Dan, +100 on your sentiment, and my thoughts exactly. But, when the dumbassess work for financial institutions (FannieMae, FreddieMac, & big banks), and the govt has to do a stupid federal bailout…its a major breakdown. First we all pay with our hard-earned tax dollars, as if there aren’t enough governmental black holes for our tax $ to disappear into…(and they always want more, it seems). Second, how many of the dumbass executives actually suffered consequences? No, they actually got “let go” with 6-figure parachute clauses. Ya, I’d jump out of a perfectly good aer-o-plane with that kind of parachute. Thirdly, the pure business philosophy of survival of the fittest, which usually weeds out bad biz, simply could not be allowed to happen with the bank bailouts, due to catastrophic financial repercussions. “Internal” checks/balances, like proper loan qualifications, failed, and a federal bailout simply has put major egg on the face of big-banking.
I guess my point is about all-around responsibility vs irresponsibility, at all levels. Yes, to agree with another poster…that IS too many dumbasses. Sadder still, is the amt of dumbasses grows faster than the amt of intelligent people.
Finally, people don’t deserve anything they didn’t earn. Cliff didn’t earn anything yet. He simply hasn’t proved that he has against college competition. Jalil Okafor HAS. Embiid DID. Now there is no reason Cliff cannot be a better player than Tyler Hansbrough was, or equal to Thomas Robinson…but he’s got to show it. Bring it. Consistency. But I’ll cut him a break, as he is a learning frosh in Self’s system. And mommy may not have told him what she did in August’14. Impatience-killed-the-cat, or in this case, a Jayhawk. Cliff, I feel for ya, brother.
-
Sadder still, is the amt of dumbasses grows faster than the amt of intelligent people.
And faster than the amount of money they can extract from taxpayers so they go spending money they don’t have and that our grandchildren will be paying. I say cut government in half and the only difference we will see is little more money in our wallets and a whole lot of fat-assed federal workers having to do actual work for a living. I work with the Federal government and I know if it is cut in half we would not be able to tell the difference. While at it, cut the Senate term to 1-6 year term and the Congress to 3- 2 year terms and get back to having citizen legislators and not professional politicians.
Stepping down from the soap box. Apologies if any one was offended by my comments.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Granted this is a basketball and sports forum, not really a politics forum. But my two cents… professional politicians are just killing this country. Citizen legislators with a true sense of what the real needs of people in this country are, instead of special interests and their own pocket books, etc. Its lame. Im so cynical in regards to ALL politicians not just the right or left. Everyone. They can all go suck a you know what honker
-
With house races costing upwards o $10M and senate races 5 times that, the averages congressman has to raise at least $300k per moth in office; no wonder they don’t have time to do actual work. Sorry about the politics; last post on the subject and now back to sports…:)
-
Cliff Alexander’s one-and-done plan goes awry at Kansas BY RUSTIN DODDTHE WICHITA EAGLE 03/11/2015 9:43 PM 03/11/2015 9:43 PM
KU’s Cliff Alexander dunks over UNLV’s Goodluck Okonoboh on Jan. 24 at Allen Fieldhouse. Alexander’s future at Kansas remains in doubt as the NCAA investigates potential impermissible benefits received by his family through a third party. RICH SUGG KANSAS CITY STAR Story Comments On a chilly early morning in the North Lawndale neighborhood of Chicago, a high school basketball player stood near the sidewalk and waited for his coach.
Cliff Alexander waited here most days amid the heartbreak that had enveloped this strip of hollowed out streets on the west side of Chicago. He was 6 feet 8, with broad shoulders that could barely be confined by his favorite T-shirts, and in the right angle and lighting, Alexander could pass for a 30-year-old man. But on this morning he was still just a teenager who required a ride to school.
A few minutes later, Mike Oliver, the basketball coach at Curie High, steered his car toward the curb. Together, they made the commute 25 minutes south to the school, located in the Archer Heights neighborhood near Midway Airport.
Oliver, a staple in the Chicago basketball scene, had driven Alexander to high school for most of his four years, and he had also overseen a remarkable transformation. Four years earlier, Alexander had never played a minute of organized basketball. By spring 2014, he was headed to a blue blood college program at Kansas, and then, if everything went right, the NBA.
“One and done,” Alexander said, on the day he picked a KU hat off a table and signed with the Jayhawks. “Then (I’ll) come back and get my degree.”
By most any definition, Alexander earning a college scholarship was a success story. His father, also a former Chicago prep standout, had spent part of Alexander’s childhood behind bars. His mother, Latillia Alexander, has scrapped to support a household full of children. The oldest child in a family of seven kids, Alexander was headed to an idyllic college campus to play for a future Hall of Fame coach.
“I can’t wait to get to Kansas,” Alexander said last spring, standing in a practice gym in Chicago.
Nearly one year later, that optimism has all but faded away in a frustrating freshman year. Alexander sits in limbo, sidelined as the NCAA investigates potential impermissible benefits received by his family through a third party. His NBA stock has taken a sharp decline. His play has been defined by uneven performances, inconsistent effort and an awkward transition to the physicality of the college game.
“He just caught it and mauled people in high school,” KU coach Bill Self says, “and you can’t do that obviously at this level.”
As the days pass, the likelihood increases that Alexander will never play for Kansas again. The NCAA investigation has slowed to a crawl as the Alexander family remains quiet. Alexander has yet to be interviewed by NCAA investigators. Alexander may be presented with limited options.
Last year, those close to Alexander envisioned a one-year stop at Kansas and a place on the stage at the NBA Draft. Now Alexander could be forced to head to NBA just as his stock has dipped, a decision that, based on the NBA’s strict rookie salary scale, could cost him millions.
If the Alexander family is concerned about the future, they have given no public indication. When reached on Tuesday afternoon, an attorney representing the family in the NCAA investigation declined to comment on the status of the case.
“I don’t have any update for you,” said Arthur McAfee, a Washington D.C.-based attorney. “Our side is doing just fine.”
On an afternoon in January, Clifton Terry leaned back against a bleacher inside Allen Fieldhouse and smiled.
It was Jan. 31, just a few minutes after Kansas’ 68-57 victory over Kansas State. It was a good day, Terry said, but he couldn’t help but be a little discouraged. Alexander had gone scoreless while playing 19 minutes, and after averaging 14 points in two games just two weeks earlier, his up-and-down season had continued.
“You always want your kid to play better,” Terry said.
As Terry said this, he stood at his normal perch, wearing his usual pair of yellow-tinted sunglasses while sitting the top row of the family section above the visitor’s bench. During Alexander’s freshman season, Terry had become a constant at Kansas games — both at home and on the road.
“You only get one chance to watch your son play college basketball,” he said in January.
A former standout at John Robeson High in Chicago, the 6-foot-7 Terry had a brief career at Kennedy-King Community College before declaring for the NBA Draft in 2001. He went undrafted, and spent part of Alexander’s childhood in an Illinois prison, according to public records. But he returned as Alexander finished up at Curie.
This year, Terry been there for all the flashes of promise and moments of consistency. Before he was sidelined by the NCAA investigation, Alexander was averaging 7.1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game. He had moments where he appeared poised for a breakout, including a 15-point, nine-bound performance at Texas. But he scored in double figures just once in nine games before being forced to the sideline.
“This is all different for high school kids,” said KU assistant coach Norm Roberts, who works with the Jayhawks’ big men in practice. “People scout you. They’re going to take away what you do well. If they know that you are a right-hand jump hook guy, that would mean teams will take that away.
“Now you’ve got to come up with a counter move, or you’re not going to score.”
Both Roberts and Self say Alexander’s development was stunted by a foot injury last summer that kept him out for most of the offseason. He came to Kansas raw, an unfinished product that needed to refine his low-post game and learn how to use angles and footwork to score against tall players. The injury slowed the process.
“These are all things he’s learning,” Roberts said. “Because he didn’t have to go against the big bodies.”
On Wednesday afternoon inside the Sprint Center, Self stood outside the Kansas locker room and provided his latest update on Alexander’s status: “No new news, whatsoever.”
It’s become a common refrain.
The details in the case remain elusive. A Uniform Commercial Code filing in the state of Illinois, filed last August, has connected Alexander’s mother, Latillia, to a Ludus Capital, a Florida financial firm that offers loans to professional athletes and agents — a connection first reported by Yahoo! Sports. But for now, it remains unclear whether the filing involved a loan based on Alexander’s future earning potential.
For now, the NCAA has yet to interview Alexander — though sources familiar with investigation told The Star on Wednesday that there was no reluctance on the Kansas side for Alexander to speak.
“Whatever happens, we’ll deal with it,” Self said last Saturday while expressing in the lack of cooperation from all sides in the investigation.
If Alexander winds up in the NBA Draft, multiple NBA scouts interviewed for this story said Alexander would still have a chance to be drafted in the first round. But one scout suggested that Alexander would have a chance to be drafted significantly higher if he returned.
For now, Kansas waits, Alexander sits, and Self prepares for a postseason without a key big man. In the end, Alexander may just meet his goal: He may be one and done.
Reach Rustin Dodd at rdodd@wichitaeagle.com. Follow him on Twitter: @rustindodd.
TCU VS. NO. 9 KANSAS When: about 2 p.m. Thursday
Where: Sprint Center, Kansas City, Mo.
Records: TCU 18-14, KU 24-7
Radio: KFH, 1240-AM, 98.7-FM
Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article13667912.html#storylink=cpy
-
KUHawkZone retweeted
Brian Hamilton @BrianHamiltonSI · 1m1 minute ago
Cliff Alexander attorney: NCAA says it won’t interview #Kansas forward 'til they receive “additional documents” that Alexander doesn’t have.
-
Dana O’Neil retweeted
Pat Forde @YahooForde · 12m12 minutes ago
Statement from atty Paul Stafford, counsel for Cliff Alexander: says Cliff is ready, willing and able to be interviewed by NCAA and has …
-
@RockChalkinTexas soooo, you think the parents won’t give up documents or loan co.?
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Kinda sounds like it. NCAA must be looking for anything like a written “agreement” that wasn’t recorded but was the basis for the loan.
-
Cliff Waiting To Be Interviewed
Sounds like the lawyer is playing the PR game – I’m sure the records he says Cliff doesn’t have access/control of are his parents’ records.
If that is correct, then this is on Cliff’s camp, not the NCAA – and I said “if.”
-
@HighEliteMajor can Cliff get his own attorney against his parents? Might be a dumb question!
-
If the people not providing the info are in Chicago which is likely, then are those people avenging Cliff for breaking Chicago’s heart by his signing day hat trick? Could be. Chicago ways are unique to the world.
-
I guess he did get his own attorney. Someone is advising him. He could and may go against his parents!
-
Meh. I’m done with the Cliff drama. He was barely contributing when he was in the rotation. Very little growth over the year compared to Oubre and Devonte. He’s done, he’s toast, and he was a complete waste of a scholarship and a year’s effort by the coaching staff. The legal wrangling just makes me more nauseous about the entire situation.
I’m cheering for the team we have at this point.
-
@DanR even if he’s innocent? Self keeps saying what a great kid he is. So many posters were mad that he didn’t start, now we seem to want to get rid of him. I’m not sure what I think.
-
Thursday legal spin seems to indicate that Cliff has presented everything in his possession to the NCAA. Outside documents still not available to NCAA (which won’t sit down with Cliff until those documents are rendered). Legal counsel looks to be bullying into position for future lawsuit(s) on Cliff’s behalf. Counsel perhaps hopeful that NCAA will continue to stonewall? If so, most probably will turn into a time- extended multi-million dollar lawsuit vs. NCAA and maybe the agent/lending company. KU Hoops left in passive neutered position of tangential onlooker.
