Cliff
-
@Crimsonorblue22 We don’t know, do we. All we can do is opine.
-
@wissoxfan83 What? Hold on, you’re a badger fan? You heretic!
Maybe we need to sign a loyalty oath or something around here.
Just kidding! I grew up in Illinois too and didn’t know or care that there were other conferences besides the Big 10 until I went to college in Big 8 eight territory. And, as a recovering Cubs fan, I can forgive your apparent poor choice in white sox fan-ness, @wissoxfan83, but please, please, please tell me you’re not a packer fan.
-
@JayhawkRock78 said:
I think we are all on the same page here. Some of these agents are sleaze-balls of the worst kind. I would think the NBA & NFL commissioners could put in a death penalty clause-that any agent caught talking/giving goodies to an athlete or his family while they are playing for a school will no longer be able to represent ANY athlete with the NBA or NFL.
Punishing the agents/money men is exactly how the NCAA stops this. The big problem with that though is they (NCAA) need the NBA and NFL to back them on this and enforce the rule. Unfortunately neither seem too worried about it because it doesn’t really affect them.
By banning any agent, agency, PR group, whoever, or whatever loop hole company that these sleaze balls work for from doing business with the professional leagues, it would deter a lot of this from happening. Maybe the families aren’t sure what’s right and wrong but you can damn well bet those that are forking over the cash know exactly what they’re doing!
-
@JayHawkFanToo didn’t the article say Cliff wasn’t talking?
-
I can forgive you for being a Cub fan too, although I have usually held them and the Packers in the same rung of sports hell with Missouri.
-
Just maybe, crazy thought, Cliff turned his dad or mom info in to self?? Maybe that’s what was weighing on him(his hs coach)
-
Guess I can repost what I had above… except change the gender…
"Says??? The family attorney?
I am skeptical about sources like that. They don’t have access to any privy info from the NCAA. From sources you can trust (like KU) they would never leak out news ahead of the NCAA.
Hate to be Negative Ned on this one… but I’m not getting my hopes up, especially on a timely resolution. Seems “timely” would be more like the middle of March."
The rumor leak was from McAfee… he is doing what all civil litigators do… establish damages.
Cliff will not be playing tomorrow. Unlikely he will be cleared for March. Possible, but unlikely.
-
Its always tough to talk about your “other” sports teams, and we should respect our fellow Hawk’s views here. You never know where someone grew up, or if someone’s parent is an alum from some other school. And as much as I have blasted on ‘hostile’ ksu fans (as seen on tv) from afar, I try to apologize to any house-divided ku households.
I DO hope Wisc can beat KY, but then for sinister reasons, maybe I want to see KY run the table, because they’ll never top that. And even better, maybe the ncaa looks into KY hard, and starts to make moves restoring ‘competetive balance’? Maybe thats a pipe dream.
One thing, if we had a 2AD rule, and Embiid was still here, Cliff would be at Illini, and KU would be a 1-seed, battling with KY and Duke/Okafor.
I also dont like the idea of blatantly paying college players…it all in how that’s executed: come up with some type of additional “scholarship” or player grant, then maybe it sounds more palatable…& it gets better if they use some TV pkg money to make such a grant equal for all Div1 programs (probably wont happen).
Maybe most logical is some sort of formula to awarding an athletic-ranking scholarship, based on how good a ranking a h.s. blue chip recruit is. Kind of analagous to if you blow away your ACT or SAT, you can get a full ride academic scholly…so why not if you’ve outcompeted & outexcelled your fellow highschoolers in your sport?
-
@DanR Don’t worry about @wissoxfan83 . As a life long (almost 60 years) Cub fan myself, you’ve got a friend.
-
@brooksmd @wissoxfan83 Well, nothing brings cubs and white sox fans together better than mutual hatred for those stinkin’ cheeseheads! Kumbaya, my friends. RCJH / Go Bears!
-
@ralster I hope uK gets caught at something. I just think they cleaned their laundry the minute a former NCAA investigative member took a position with uK’s AD.
If you read the announcement “…the hiring doesn’t signal any brewing compliance trouble for the Cats…” I’ll give them credit, this was a brilliant move by uK. She can clean their dirty laundry at uK and with the NCAA investigative committee. They won’t get caught at all folks. This is so obvious it’s sick, but brilliant for uK.
-
@truehawk93 Wow! 100 mil plus for athletic dept budget for one year & 22mil alone for the 2014 BB budget ?!! That sure covered Cals $3200 a night junket to Paradise Island OK. Small cities have much smaller budgets than UK BB. That is just outrageous. How many compliance czars do they need? Maybe one each for Cal & Strickland? WWW may have a tail 365 1/2 days a year !!
-
Just a guess here, but with each passing day I become more resigned to belief that Cliff has played his last game as a Jayhawk.
If proven that impermissible benefits were received by a family member and that Cliff was aware of it, his college career is done.
With Cliff’s attorney purportedly preventing the proceedings from moving forward by not allowing the NCAA to sit down with Cliff, he is effectively arriving at the same outcome without an admission of guilt on Cliff’s part.
Thus - just as the attorney indicated in his first press release - minimizing any fallout.
If the claims were frivolous, and given that time is of the essence at this late juncture of the season, the attorney should have been expediting the matter so that Cliff could have an opportunity to either improve his draft stock by playing and/or keeping the door open for him to return next season if his performance wasn’t indicative of a first round draft choice.
Regardless of the outcome, I hope the Jayhawk faithful keep their arm around Cliff. Once a Jayhawk, always a Jayhawk. FOE. Just unfortunate that a family member has presumably put Cliff in this situation.
Keep your head up, Big Fella.
-
Public filing ties Cliff Alexander parent to financial firm By Pat Forde and Adrian Wojnarowski 34 minutes ago Yahoo Sports A Uniform Commercial Code filed in August 2014 ties the mother of suspended Kansas basketball player Cliff Alexander to a finance company that, according to its website, specializes in loans to professional athletes and agents, Yahoo Sports has learned.
On Aug. 25, 2014, a UCC filing was made in the state of Illinois under the name of Latillia Alexander of Chicago, Cliff Alexander’s mother. The filing is publicly accessible on the Illinois Secretary of State website. The securing party is listed as Ludus Capital of Delray Beach, Fla.
. Cliff Alexander (2) attempts a shot against Oklahoma State. (USAT) Among the types of financing extended by Ludus Capital, which has offices in Florida and New York: draft loans to potential high draft picks in the NBA and NFL. However, the loans are extended to athletes after they have declared for the draft. In August, Alexander was just starting his freshman year at Kansas.
Loans based on future earning potential can violate NCAA rules for student-athletes.
Registered NBA agents often work in concert with financial firms to secure money for families. These firms also recruit prospects independently.
Alexander missed his third straight game Saturday for what Kansas has called an “NCAA issue.” Multiple sources told Yahoo Sports on Thursday that the issue is a family member who may have received an impermissible benefit.
Alexander’s family took meetings with NBA agents during August, sources said. Discussions with agents for the purpose of gaining information on a player’s market value do not violate NCAA rules, but entering into a written or verbal agreement and receiving compensation is a violation.
Alexander has not yet been interviewed by the NCAA, sources said, though not because of a reluctance by either the school or NCAA investigators. Sources said legal counsel has been retained by the Alexander family and that may be slowing the investigative process.
Alexander will not be reinstated until after an NCAA interview occurs and a decision is made on whether benefits received by his family are impermissible. If it is ruled that a violation occurred, Alexander’s eligibility for the remainder of the season could be affected.
Before he was sidelined by the NCAA issue, Alexander’s playing time had plummeted in recent weeks. He played fewer than 20 minutes in seven of his last nine games, bottoming out a total of 27 minutes played in three games against West Virginia, TCU and Kansas State from Feb. 16-23. Alexander scored just 28 points in the month of February.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 One of my boys says the yahoo story is an except from this cbs sstory link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25097564/report-cliff-alexander-faces-ineligibility-because-mom-took-loan.
Sounds like the loan may have been done last year & yeah, he should be done. How stupid can his family be??? Don’t have a clue what the governing precedent is in a situation as such, but it would be a Tremendous, with a capitol effing T, BOMB if we get punished for the sins of the father…Cam Newton & Auburn sure as hell didn’t. Of course this is just my opinion. Either way, Regretfully I have to say the most prudent thing to do is just pull the scholarship & be done. Sorry Cliff.
-
It’s funny how we categorize professionals, especially Attorneys & Agents. Here’s a fact: I work with incredible attorneys on a regular basis. I work with shady attorneys on a regular basis. It’s the people, not the profession.
I’ve observed the last few days as agents are referred to as sleeze balls. Sure some of them are. And I personally know a lot of them are good ones, too. It’s the people, not the profession.
There are incredibly talented scientists and researchers. Some of them do legitimate, bonafide research. Some of them cook their data to gain the support they need. It’s the people, not the profession.
Some basketball coaches cheat, and some don’t.
Some referees cheat, and some don’t.
You will always have the Mark McGuires, Sammy Sosa’s, Lance Armstrongs, Jose Conseco’s, Sleezeball Attorneys and Sleezeball agents. It’s the people, not the profession.
For those who cannot obtain their competitive advantage through ability, work ethic, commitment to continuous improvement, and luck (luck=preparation meeting opportunity) their competitive advantage is relegated to underhanded dealings.
Its the people, not the profession. When you classify an entire group of people because of their profession, you sound uninformed.
-
@Blown good pt!
-
@Blown do you know anything about this loan co? Can they legally give parents a loan based on nba potential. Is that illegal for them to do too. Seems like there should be some fault w/them too. Seems like they took on a risk.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 I know Nothing about this loan company. But agreements and contracts are usually going to be unique to the parties involved. Cliff may have an agreement with Kansas, but the Loan Company has no agreement with Kansas. It is up to Cliff to abide by the agreement he took, not the Loan company. Loans are given on potential frequently.
I remember in 2002 Gooden showed up on Campus with a navigator all of the sudden. And there was a Joke on campus when we saw him buying the brand name fudge pops from the grocery store that we knew he was a goner. Shady things happen. It’s up to our own moral compass to do the right thing in life. But as I’ve said before, I see large sums of money change people (Or reveal them) all too frequently. Greed is a monster.
-
@Blown You are correct. There are good and bad, so when I write Sleeze- ball agent, it is specific to the bottom dwellers of the agents, not all of them.
Same with lawyers, etc.
I had a really bad situation with a finance person I was in a partnership with in a biz deal. We were partners for years-but this crook cooked the books. I swear if I wasn’t a church going man,the revenge I wanted and didn’t act on-_-
-
@JayhawkRock78 forgiveness is divine.
-
@JayhawkRock78 stinks!!
-
@Blown yep!
-
Probably the best thing that got me through it was we had moved 1500 miles away and I was focused on great things my kids were doing at the time. Good thing I left the company, town and got away from it.
-
I don’t get it. Who the hell cares if the parents are borrowing on their kid’s future. Kids borrow on their parent’s reputation all the time.
Furthermore, if all those sh*tbag corner title and payday loan scum suckers are legal at 300%, how in the hell is getting ANY kind of loan “illegal” in this country? If someone wants to lend you some money… so what??? Please explain any recent situation where finding one dumbass to loan money to another dumbass has ever been prevented in the business world. Do we really have any moral or legal problem with that any more?
F’ the NCAA and the NBA too.
-
@DanR that’s a lot of dumbasses!
-
@DanR You make a very good point. I guess it is all about “minors”
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Well, there are a lot of them–everywhere!
@JayHawkRock78 Good point–the music/entertainment industry is pretty bad about parents whoring out their talented kids. But Cliff was 19 as of 11/16/14, so he wasn’t a minor even last August.
-
Too bad Cliff just didn’t keep the Illinois hat on.
-
@DanR +100
-
@wissoxfan83 Ya know, I’ve been thinking that very thing tonight after seeing Lucas go for the DD today. This was the Lucas I expected to see this year, & today he showed everyone he does have a skillset to play the high low, set picks & seal, & hit the boards hard. Age wise he’s a junior, but this is only his second year of eligibility. He knew, as most all of them did today, that he wasn’t going to get that angry, quick hook & played so much more focused & relaxed. Kid’s playing hurt too. Hey, I feel bad for Cliff, but I sorta hope he is done. He’s not been that much the factor with 10-15 min PT a game, & other guys are busting their asses for minutes too Guys that want to be here for four years too. . Cliff’s the talent & I get that, but the first time someone convinces him he’ll get picked he’s gone anyway. Damn shame too cause he’d be a helluva player with 3-4 years of CBB & is at best a marginal pro now. His family or whoever may have doomed him to a professional life of mediocrity when the ceiling was so much higher.
-
Sorry. But I havent seen anything out of Cliff that suggests he will ever have an NBA career thus far. He may well get drafted. But kids get drafted every year. And you never hear about alot of them ever again. Right now thats where i see Cliff. Its unfortunate how things have worked out. I mean honestly hes already one of the biggests busts weve had here. And if this season gets vacated over this loan crap… There will be absolutely no question.
-
@Blown I called the agents sleaze balls and like @JayhawkRock78 I was referring to the ones that seek out kids and families to take advantage of them and/or don’t inform those that seek them out all legality issues.
Cliff should have hired George Lawson, Cam Newton and Johnny Manziel’s attorney. If this issue isn’t going to be resolved until after Cliff talks with the NCAA and his current counsel is telling him not to talk doesn’t that admit guilt? I know it’s the NCAA and prior rulings of similar cases doesn’t matter but if Cam could prove ignorance to his dad requesting $$ for his commitment (NOT A LOAN, but payment for his commitment!!!) and not be ruled ineligible then why doesn’t Cliff? Was he physically at these meetings in August which we make it hard to prove his ignorance to the issue? Wouldn’t he have been at KU at the time? And what’s the point of not cooperating? What does that solve? Because either way Cliff isn’t going to suit up so they should just pull the bandaid off and cooperate.
And you can tell from the interview yesterday that Self feels the same way about how the family attorney is handling the case. He’s asking for all parties to cooperate. Well we know the NCAA is cooperating so who does that leave? The loan company? The family?
-
@Kip_McSmithers I thought Self was doing the best he could not to tongue lash Cliffs family in that interview, too, yet he could barely contain it. It appears there is some wrongdoing and Cliff knows it.
-
These days, more than one way to shut down the playing time of topnotch recruits. Sic a bevy of slick charismatic loan officers on the kid’s family members. SHAZAM! Bye-bye college eligibility.
-
@DanR - I know it easy to get upset with the NCAA, and rules. But what do you want them to do? If they are to preserve college athletics, there has to be rules just like the one that’s hanging up Cliff.
There is nothing “illegal” about his parents taking a loan. It’s just against NCAA rules.
Remember, a big issue with many of these supposed “loans” is that they never get paid back, or there are no payments required while the kid is in school.
To condense it down – if the NCAA doesn’t enforce this stuff, parents will simply get cash payments that will influence where the kid goes to school.
The kid is, well, a kid. So his parent or parents are the ultimate authority and influence. What better way to get a kid to go to a school than to give his mom a house or money or a “loan”?
A black and white rule ends the discussion as to whether the money influences a school choice, or whether the money or benefit came from a school, or had connections to the school.
I think Cliff is done here.
-
@HighEliteMajor Pretty clear he’s done with no cooperation as advised. Also the lawyer is now adding more fees to the process & the vicious cycle gets more cyclonic every day forward. Hopefully Cliff can play ball somewhere but his chances in the L may now be slim & none. They don’t have the patience for a kid to learn unless it’s fast. Cliff doesn’t strike me as the valedictorian type. All the while we speculated about injuries, school work, his motor, his drive…it likely was this cloud hanging over his head. But we were correct that there was something bothering him even though we had no clue as to what.
Essentially this “family faupaux” has changed his learning curve to develop the skills for a fruitful professional career. Sad too, not only because he is in such a coveted program, but because he’s still a wet behind the ears. 19 year old kid, that really doesn’t know crap from apple butter. Certainly hope this is not the beginning of the end for another young career that could have been really great had there been more patience, & maybe prayer involved. Of course this is just one man’s opinion.
-
I don’t know enough about the ncaa laws, but could this process be taking so long because Cliff wants to come back next year? Maybe, he didn’t know what his parents had done, and he told them awhile back he needed to stay another year in order to get a decent contract. The crap hit the fan and his folks didn’t know how to pay the money back. Maybe at this pt. Cliff told coach, probably the only guy he could trust, meanwhile his folks are in deep stuff w/loan co. and their son.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 thats an excellent theory. I hadnt thought of that. Seems either way that its not gonna be a happy ending. But. I guess we wait and see
-
@Crimsonorblue22 that a good theory.
-
Cliff turned 19 in November of 2014, so he would have been a legal adult (18 years old) in August 2014.
As such, his signature would have been necessary to consent to his property being used a collateral for a loan for his parents or to provide guaranty for the indebtedness.
The Yahoo Sports story indicated a UCC financing statement had been filed with the Illinois Secretary of State.
When a lender makes a vehicle loan, its lien is noted on the title. When a lender makes a loan using real estate as collateral, the lender perfects its security interest by filing a mortgage or deed of trust (depending on the state) with the appropriate office (such as a Register of Deeds).
Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code outlines how a lender is able to perfect a lien against other property that is not titled or deeded.
A UCC Financing Statement filed with the Secretary of State is a way for a lender to put other potential lenders on notice that a lien has already been filed against assets of the borrower.
Article 9 outlines very specific language that must be used in order to properly perfect the lien.
A lien against a Debtor’s interest in contractual benefits could be obtained, although normally a contract (presumably and NBA contract in this case) would need to be in existence or at least imminent (technically can’t pledge collateral that doesn’t yet exist) . And for that lien claim to be enforceable, its use as collateral would need to be acknowledged by the person who was set to receive those contractual benefits.
At any rate I completed the UCC search on the Illinois Secretary of State web site Latillia Alexander (his Mom) and found an overview of the record, but in order to see the actual document a copy must be ordered from the Secretary’s Office.
I did not find results on a search for his father - Clifton Terry.
I also searched for Cliff Alexander and Clifton Alexander, but did not find any results…although if Cliff is a nickname, his middle name or if Cliff is not the first part of his first name the search criteria would not have found any filings.
Long story, made short…if Cliff wasn’t involved the lender did not have the authority to place a lien on his future earnings.
Mom could sign the loan, but without Cliff’s consent or guarantee the lender would not have claim to Cliff’s future income stream…and they might not even if he had been involved…and the enforceability of the contract were contested.
So…in an ironic twist - if it was the UCC financing statement that tipped off the NCAA to possible improprieties - in filing a potentially worthless UCC the lender may have compromised their ability to get repaid by impairing Cliff’s ability to improve his draft stock,
-
@SoftballDad2011 Interesting stuff. Thanks for the update. In the information age it’s amazing what you can find just with common search tool if you know where to look.
-
-
Ok, so we need a new big man. Any recruiting suggestions?
-
I thought we were after Zimmerman.
-
I’m not a big fan of the NCAA either. However understand why the NCAA was really created. It’s to keep the money schools from cheating in every aspect of the game especially in recruiting.
We can see what getting all the best talent can do to the game, by just looking at UK. Everybody is preaching the greatness that is happening before our eyes. I’m like really, they should win, they have all the talent.
-
@JayhawkRock78 We’re best positioned with Thon Maker and Cheick Diallo. I’d be happy to add either. Ivan Rabb likes Self, but it looks like he’s going to spend his collegiate life out west. Same for Zimmerman, for the time being.
-
This situation with Cliff is just another example of why the NCAA will not be in control of the Power 5 conferences much longer.
The NCAA is outdated, frankly. These rules worked well when there was a threat of corruption in college sports due to gambling influences (there were several point shaving scandals in the 40’s and 50’s). They were practical when most pro leagues didn’t offer anything in the way of large salaries.
Now, however, the rules can’t keep up with where the game has gone.
In 1985 the NBA salary cap was $4m. That’s less than the veteran’s exception is now. Simply put, the NCAA is trying to cage a bear in a litter box. There’s just no way to do it.
The NCAA’s rules are really best suited for athletes that do not have a future at the highest professional level. There is a reason that the best baseball, hockey, soccer, tennis and golf athletes generally do not play NCAA sports. The truly elite players in those sports go to the pros straight out of high school. Baseball’s rules are such that there is more talent often times at the junior college level (where players can leave before graduating) than there is at the D1 level. Most elite soccer players head to Europe or other elite academies. Same in hockey. In tennis and golf, most elite players hook up with elite coaches as teenagers and turn pro while still in high school.
But basketball and football cling to this old model. That model works for non-elite players. It puts elite players in a position where they will always be under intense scrutiny because there is so much financial benefit available if you locate even a below average pro.
Think about it this way. The average commission for a sports agent is between 4% and 10% of the total contract. If you can sign up a guy that can just stay in the league for a while, you stand to earn hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, over his career.
Deshawn Stevenson went straight to the pros out of high school and had a pretty meh career overall. Never averaged even 12 points a game as a pro. Never went to an all star game or won any major awards. He was just a pro for 13 years. In that time he made nearly $28m. That means his agent made between $1.1m and 2.75m over 13 years. And that’s just one client.
DeShawn Stevenson was worth probably more per year to his agent than most of us make annually. That would not have been the case 60 years ago. That wouldn’t even have been the case 40 years ago. Honestly, up until the last 20 years or so, that would not have been the case.
And that’s for a lower level, non-star player. A guy like Kevin Garnett has made over $300m in his career. Chris Webber made nearly $180m over his 15 year career. If you were his agent, you made at least $7m over the course of his career, if not more. And people knew Chris Webber was going to be a star when he was a freshman in high school.
The NCAA isn’t prepared for this. They can’t be. You can’t serve the interests of the guy that is just playing sports to pay for school and also make sure that the interests of a guy like Chris Webber are protected.
If you knew you could make $7m over the next 15 years by lending someone that really needed the money $50,000 today, would you do it? I would take out a $50,000 loan today so I could lend the money to somebody else. That’s not just return on investment - that’s basically printing money.
The NCAA can’t do it anymore and that has become clear. Within a few years, the big conferences will break away and structure their own rules, knowing that they can prepare the elite players for pro careers. The death of the NCAA is coming, and when it happens, they will be buried in a pile of rules and red tape.
-
@DoubleDD I love your last point. All year I have been hoping that I am not the only person in the country who thinks that UK winning is not a big deal. Of course they are winning. They have assembled a team with more height and more talent than anyone else. UK winning does not impress me. Not in the least. If they won every game by 25 points I might be impressed.
-
In all likelihood, if there was a loan it was not recorder via the method you outlined since it applies when there is physical property against which a lien can be issued. This is what lending institutions do when they lend you money to buy a car or a home and basically insures their money will be protected; when you pay out the loan, you get a lien release of quit claim document that you file with the proper government agency that effectively removes the name of the lending institution as a “co-owner” if you will. I will guess the record you found for Cliff’s mom is one of this type.
If money was lent based on potential earnings, it was likely a private contract that would not be filed and if it is not repaid, it would be pursued in Civil (not criminal) Court which could order a “garnishment” of future earnings but without a Court order the lender has very little recourse. Most of this type of contracts are risky for the lender since they are based on future earning above a threshold and if he never earns that money the loan probably would go unpaid with little recourse to the lender. This type of loans are structured more along the lines of what in business we call “seed money” or “good will money.” You basically invest some money in good faith with the hope that you will be rewarded with a contract later. It is perfectly legal and I do this even with Government agencies, but it is against NCAA regulations. The NCAA has zero legal authority to force compliance or even compel the interested parties to come to the table; all it can do is rule the player ineligible and the school will stop playing him. This is the extent of the NCAA authority since the NCAA is not a government agency (as many think it is) but simply a private association with voluntary membership. Coach Self made it clear that if the Alexander family is unwilling to talk to the NCAA (which they appear to be) they cannot be forced and there is zero chance the issue gets resolved and Cliff is done at KU.
