Cliff
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I thought we were after Zimmerman.
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I’m not a big fan of the NCAA either. However understand why the NCAA was really created. It’s to keep the money schools from cheating in every aspect of the game especially in recruiting.
We can see what getting all the best talent can do to the game, by just looking at UK. Everybody is preaching the greatness that is happening before our eyes. I’m like really, they should win, they have all the talent.
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@JayhawkRock78 We’re best positioned with Thon Maker and Cheick Diallo. I’d be happy to add either. Ivan Rabb likes Self, but it looks like he’s going to spend his collegiate life out west. Same for Zimmerman, for the time being.
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This situation with Cliff is just another example of why the NCAA will not be in control of the Power 5 conferences much longer.
The NCAA is outdated, frankly. These rules worked well when there was a threat of corruption in college sports due to gambling influences (there were several point shaving scandals in the 40’s and 50’s). They were practical when most pro leagues didn’t offer anything in the way of large salaries.
Now, however, the rules can’t keep up with where the game has gone.
In 1985 the NBA salary cap was $4m. That’s less than the veteran’s exception is now. Simply put, the NCAA is trying to cage a bear in a litter box. There’s just no way to do it.
The NCAA’s rules are really best suited for athletes that do not have a future at the highest professional level. There is a reason that the best baseball, hockey, soccer, tennis and golf athletes generally do not play NCAA sports. The truly elite players in those sports go to the pros straight out of high school. Baseball’s rules are such that there is more talent often times at the junior college level (where players can leave before graduating) than there is at the D1 level. Most elite soccer players head to Europe or other elite academies. Same in hockey. In tennis and golf, most elite players hook up with elite coaches as teenagers and turn pro while still in high school.
But basketball and football cling to this old model. That model works for non-elite players. It puts elite players in a position where they will always be under intense scrutiny because there is so much financial benefit available if you locate even a below average pro.
Think about it this way. The average commission for a sports agent is between 4% and 10% of the total contract. If you can sign up a guy that can just stay in the league for a while, you stand to earn hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, over his career.
Deshawn Stevenson went straight to the pros out of high school and had a pretty meh career overall. Never averaged even 12 points a game as a pro. Never went to an all star game or won any major awards. He was just a pro for 13 years. In that time he made nearly $28m. That means his agent made between $1.1m and 2.75m over 13 years. And that’s just one client.
DeShawn Stevenson was worth probably more per year to his agent than most of us make annually. That would not have been the case 60 years ago. That wouldn’t even have been the case 40 years ago. Honestly, up until the last 20 years or so, that would not have been the case.
And that’s for a lower level, non-star player. A guy like Kevin Garnett has made over $300m in his career. Chris Webber made nearly $180m over his 15 year career. If you were his agent, you made at least $7m over the course of his career, if not more. And people knew Chris Webber was going to be a star when he was a freshman in high school.
The NCAA isn’t prepared for this. They can’t be. You can’t serve the interests of the guy that is just playing sports to pay for school and also make sure that the interests of a guy like Chris Webber are protected.
If you knew you could make $7m over the next 15 years by lending someone that really needed the money $50,000 today, would you do it? I would take out a $50,000 loan today so I could lend the money to somebody else. That’s not just return on investment - that’s basically printing money.
The NCAA can’t do it anymore and that has become clear. Within a few years, the big conferences will break away and structure their own rules, knowing that they can prepare the elite players for pro careers. The death of the NCAA is coming, and when it happens, they will be buried in a pile of rules and red tape.
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@DoubleDD I love your last point. All year I have been hoping that I am not the only person in the country who thinks that UK winning is not a big deal. Of course they are winning. They have assembled a team with more height and more talent than anyone else. UK winning does not impress me. Not in the least. If they won every game by 25 points I might be impressed.
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In all likelihood, if there was a loan it was not recorder via the method you outlined since it applies when there is physical property against which a lien can be issued. This is what lending institutions do when they lend you money to buy a car or a home and basically insures their money will be protected; when you pay out the loan, you get a lien release of quit claim document that you file with the proper government agency that effectively removes the name of the lending institution as a “co-owner” if you will. I will guess the record you found for Cliff’s mom is one of this type.
If money was lent based on potential earnings, it was likely a private contract that would not be filed and if it is not repaid, it would be pursued in Civil (not criminal) Court which could order a “garnishment” of future earnings but without a Court order the lender has very little recourse. Most of this type of contracts are risky for the lender since they are based on future earning above a threshold and if he never earns that money the loan probably would go unpaid with little recourse to the lender. This type of loans are structured more along the lines of what in business we call “seed money” or “good will money.” You basically invest some money in good faith with the hope that you will be rewarded with a contract later. It is perfectly legal and I do this even with Government agencies, but it is against NCAA regulations. The NCAA has zero legal authority to force compliance or even compel the interested parties to come to the table; all it can do is rule the player ineligible and the school will stop playing him. This is the extent of the NCAA authority since the NCAA is not a government agency (as many think it is) but simply a private association with voluntary membership. Coach Self made it clear that if the Alexander family is unwilling to talk to the NCAA (which they appear to be) they cannot be forced and there is zero chance the issue gets resolved and Cliff is done at KU.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yah, knowing absolutely nothing about the politics/procedure involved with this type of stuff, I just feel like Cliff is done dudes.
He hasnt really impressed me at all, I kinda feel like I did with Josh Selby.
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@Lulufulu Ironic that you mention Selby. I see them as very similar. If they would have stayed, developed in school, that (in my opinion) would have led to productive NBA careers. Selby left too early. Cliff will be making the same error. He may get 1st round money, but his long term career is what is at risk. We don’t know “for sure” of course.
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The UCC filing I located listed the same creditor in the yahoo article.
I have been a lender for 20 years.
The method you mention is basically unsecured lending…no collateral taken. or you could take collateral but choose not to “perfect” the lien, meaning you chose not to file the appropriate documents to put other lenders on notice that you filed the lien.
If a lender goes this path, they risk another creditor gaining the legal right to seize the collateral…even if that lender loaned money after the first loan.
If the creditor mentioned in the yahoo article filed a UCC it was to perfect is claim in non-titled property - commonly called chattels - a UCC financing statement is used to accomplish this.
A UCC financing statement is nothing more than a public notice to let other potential creditors know that a lien has already been filed against some form of property. This minimizes the risk of a borrower double pledging collateral to different creditors.
Inventory, account receivable, contract rights, non-titled machinery and equipment, general intangibles, tort claims, etc all use this method.
some non-titled consumer goods loans are also perfected this way…household goods, small watercraft, etc.
If there was a specific contract involved you can also take an assignment of that specific contract which involves additional steps…but in this case, Cliff had no contract to take on assignment on.
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READ BETWEEN THE LINES -
This situation has damaged our year, mostly because we don’t have a resolution and it doesn’t appear it will be resolved anytime soon. It will also damage us in the future!
If any of you caught Self’s interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process. He mentioned that Cliff’s family needs to allow an interview with the NCAA to get a quick resolution, perhaps opening the door for Cliff to become eligible for March Madness.
What Self didn’t say, and why he is really upset… is that Cliff’s status of UNKNOWN has also put our big man recruiting on hold and UNKNOWN. The big men that are coming available have waited because they want to see how school positions shake out. They are looking for certainty.
It appears we may not have certainty for a long, long time.
So what should Kansas do? Throw Cliff under the bus now and announce he won’t be offered an annual scholarship next year?
I clearly say YES! We should give this thing perhaps another week or so. Give Cliff’s family notice about how their lack of communication with the NCAA is hurting Kansas’ future. It is very unlikely Cliff will ever get reinstated for college ball again. But what should we do? Let it go and forget our hopes of recruiting his replacement?
Sorry Cliff… but unless your family starts playing ball with the NCAA now, you should be cut from any hopes of a future scholarship next year.
Self did say… “If we don’t hear anything before March Madness, it is unlikely it will be resolved in time for our first exhibition game next fall.”
Read between the lines… If we don’t have a resolution soon, we know for certain that Cliff won’t be back. I hope I’m reading more in this, and that Self will step up and stop the madness on Cliff. Cut his scholarship.
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@drgnslayr Slayr, as much as I’d like to see Cliff back next year to benefit both him and Kansas, I believe you’re right. Give the family an ultimatum with a time limit and if they don’t go for it, bye bye. They want to play their games fine, but not on KU time.
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I think also it sounded like Self was saying. If its not resolved so Cliff can play in the tournament this year. Hes just done. I felt that was the message…without actually spelling it out. And perhaps that’s somewhat of an ultimatum. But also it could be not wanting the uncertainty in recruiting. He may be saying youre in now. Or youre just out for good. We cant wait on you. Other irons in the fire
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@konkeyDong Believe me I don’t do much research compared to many on this site. Thanks for painting a clearer picture. I don’t want to mislead anyone.
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@drgnslayr Cliff will just run out the clock, and declare for the draft.
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I agree with what you are saying when it applies to tangible items and items such as copyrights and even statements of WIP or receivables can be considered tangible; however, when it comes to intangibles items, such as undefined future earnings, there is nothing really that can be filed since there is not tangible property involved. All of this was extensively discussed at the time that LeBron was graduating from High school and his mother got a big loan and the consensus was that the lenders were taking a big risk because other than the good will of LeBron to repay his mother’s loan, there is no assurances that they would get re-paid and they would have to go to civil court and get awarded whatever property the could prove she had, and more importantly, they would have to actually get possession of whatever they get awarded, the last part a tall order. Other than that it is really a personal, unsecured loan, and if Cliff was not part of the agreement, he is under no obligation to repay it. Because of this, the assumption is that Cliff had to be involved for that loan to take place, no lender in his right mind would make a loan without the likely payer of the loan not being involved, which leads me to believe that Cliff had to be involved and likeley he is done at KU.
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Sad, sad deal. Dumb dumb situation. Understandable, perhaps, but DUMB from the getgo. The cap situation should have warned Jayhawk fans that trouble was on the wind. I feel for Cliff. He needed two years in the program, probably much more than we needed his slowly developing collegiate game, as it turns out. A healthier and stronger Cliff, spending a second year in Lawrence, most probably would have moved into NBA lottery consideration. In his current predicament, he will be fortunate to be selected somewhere between 15th and 21st in this June’s draft. Guaranteed multimillions of dollars most probably have dwindled to a few million, at best, his first five years as a professional. His skills most probably will undergo extensive developmental time in the D League. Franchises will not risk time and millions to cope with future injuries or retarded development. Understandable complexity, I say, because hasty bird-in-hand greed is almost impossible to turn down for the families of many players who live in poverty or near poverty. Without one hell of a bundle of good luck, Cliff will sail off into the sunset as an American Sports Tragedy. Opportunity thwarted and denied. A very tough bullet for Bill Self and Jayhawk fandom to bite.
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@brooksmd Yeah,ya gotta give them the news to either step up or step out. I said this very thing a couple of days back. If that contract was consummated on a non-recourse premise, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on cause Cliff has no future earnings they can garnish. Hell, he or the borrower may die in their sleep tonight. I’m under the impression that some family member hooked Cliff into co-signing on a potential contract & yes he is done if he has. He should not have been compromised by his family. Also making him ineligible to be able continue to work towards receiving this “potential” contract by filing these public documents by the lender, they may have damaged his ability to earn a contract, so they may be essentially screwed too. JMO, but I hope they are. Credit is just waaaaaaay too easy for people to come by. When I was a kid & first married the rule of 78ths was still in effect & all car, trailer, boat, & mobile home financing was recourse-just like the Lizard Lick guys-you don’t pay, we come after the property then you. If you bought a house you had to be squeaky clean, have 20% down, & obligate not a dollar more than 25% of your income towards a mortgage-virtuallyA-1credit. My, my, how the American Dream has become a damn sham…
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@globaljaybird lizard lick? Should I ask?
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@drgnslayr said:
If any of you caught Self’s interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process.
Doesn’t help that Cliff is the crown jewel recruit from Snacks. Everything surrounding this is getting more tarnished. I agree with @REHawk that the Karma from the Cap incident is catching up.
The only glimmer I see on the horizon is that the hope that none of these rules apply to the World Games and Cliff might be eligible for that.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Certainly you may ask. By all means miss lady-That’s a ref to buy here pay here of this day & age-recourse finance. The seller co signs the buyer & gets paid his commission on delivery, of the property exchange & signing of the contract. basically in advance, of the fulfillment. Should the buyer default, the seller is obligated for payment to the lender. So then he must pay back not only his commission which was paid in advance, but also the entire loan he recoursed (co signed) to the lender. Then he retrieves the property if he can & tries to re sell said property, cars, trucks, etc; to recover his loss. That’s what recourse is- Mean & nasty when it needs to be. We didn’t do it often but back in the 60’s & 70’s it was a necessary way of life. We repossessed a few through the years, but it was always a major endeavor. Never got shot at, but was cursed many times.
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@bskeet I didn’t think about Cliff and the games! What a mess!
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@globaljaybird thx!!!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Like the Germans say, Danke’ Schönen (Donkey shit) …LOL !!
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If Cliff is ruled ineligible by the NCAA then I would rather we not take him with the team to World Games. My hope is we can fill his scholarship with one of the remaining top bigs that were are currently recruiting. Unfortunately Thon wouldn’t be allowed to play for us at WGs so if he commits and we had an open roster spot I would rather it go to a more experienced former big that could help teach our current bigs if their current NBA club would allow it.
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@Kip_McSmithers Trob!
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Remember back when we were giving nicknames to the players?
After “Goner” Frankamp, we have “Off the” Cliff.
Self has said if Cliff doesn’t get cleared for the NCAAs he probably won’t get cleared for the first exhibition game either. To me, that’s SelfSpeak for “do what it takes to play in the NCAAs or move on down the road.”
Now he adds “We’re basically moving on.” Translation: because Cliff is.
Personally, I think the lawyer hired by the family may be right: damage control. If there is a real problem, why help the NCAA prove it? Stonewall and prevent NCAA sanctions.
Self must give lip service to full cooperation with the NCAA, whether he means it or not. I think he does, both on principle and as someone who doesn’t give up easily.
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@globaljaybird I thought is was “donkey chains”
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@globaljaybird You and I have a few things in common. Never got shot at but three times was bull rushed. I guess they expected me to run? Each time I just stood there letting them have the first shot and each time they stopped a pace away and just talked.
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“Personally, I think the lawyer hired by the family may be right: damage control. If there is a real problem, why help the NCAA prove it? Stonewall and prevent NCAA sanctions.”
The only damage possible for Cliff is to lose his eligibility. Whether they help the NCAA or not, he won’t become eligible again until they have answers. His eligibility right now isn’t being controlled by the NCAA, it is with Kansas. Kansas pulled him off the team. Kansas already stated he won’t get back on the team without a ruling from the NCAA. The ruling won’t come without cooperation. So, essentially, Cliff is done without cooperation. The damage is done now because they won’t cooperate.
Self is merely stating that the damage will be permanent if he doesn’t regain eligible status for March Madness. He has, essentially, laid down a deadline.
Cliff’s family stepping up now would be more of a gesture for the team. To give them resolution before the tourney. I like what Self said about their mistake last year with JoJo in March… planning for his return. This time, they’ve moved on and if, by chance, Cliff comes available then he’ll just be inserted as “an extra cookie.”
This is a sticky situation. I’m glad we have Self. He’s playing it right, not only tactically, but with his comments to the press.
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Self knows he’s not getting back Cliff. He’s seen the reports, he’s probably got first hand knowledge of who’s cooperating and who’s not and so he’s come out with the statement how they can plan for the tournament differently knowing he’s not apart of the plan. JoJo must have really had a timeline they thought he could hit and missed it, and with the early exit made it look even worse.
I’m okay with not having him honestly. At least we can roll with a 3rd year Soph. & and 4th year Junior. Cliff might have a talent edge on both but at this point of the season talent doesn’t always win. Hunter & Lucas give effort all the time and that’s something Cliff hadn’t learned consistently.
What bothers me even more about this whole situation is it took place before the season even began. I don’t buy the ignorance in this day and age that the whole Alexander family/ Cliff included didn’t know that meeting an agent would raise red flags. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that you can be deemed ineligible for taking a bagel from someone else. So becoming public record for getting a loan from a agent firm or whatever it is they are being investigated for is basically going to end your eligibility for that year. They all know what they got involved with. It’s a dumb NCAA rule but a rule until its changed.
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“Cliff included didn’t know that meeting an agent would raise red flags”
Self covered this in his interview. He said all of these guys meet agents, handlers, and other people with an angle. The key is whether or not they take a benefit, and to know what a benefit is.
The NCAA isn’t going to investigate because Cliff or his family met with an agent. But if there was a benefit distributed in any form, or a contract signed then it becomes a problem, warranting an investigation and decision… But Cliff should have known and he should have instructed his family not to do anything without vetting it through Self and Kansas.
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Your right they should have known. They should have known if they did take a benefit that this would affect everything. I’m troubled by the whole thing to understand exactly why.
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" I’m okay with not having him honestly. At least we can roll with a 3rd year Soph. & and 4th year Junior. Cliff might have a talent edge on both but at this point of the season talent doesn’t always win. Hunter & Lucas give effort all the time and that’s something Cliff hadn’t learned consistently."
Me too. These 2 guys play their butts of every time out & Cliff, well, who knows? I cant help but remember how Cole had that monster game in 08 vs NC & Hansborough. One of these guys gets the right matchup in the dance & history could repeat itself-not likely, but teams have not seen a lot of these guys & a short time to prepare could get someone torched. Just hope it’s not us. If Ellis comes back strong, we could make a run. If not, well…Plus with recruiting right after the season this allows far more advantage to HCBS knowing full well that Cliff is done.
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Kansas would have to be crazy to play Cliff knowing there is an investigation afoot; no team in his right mind would. What worries me is that by the time KU was informed of the investigation, the family had already retained and attorney which probably does not come cheap and more likely is being paid by the same agent that made the “alleged” loan in the first place.
If the family had nothing to hide or even if they were led astray by an unscrupulous agent, IMHO, they would have contacted KU immediately and would have been agreeable to meet with the NCAA; the fact that neither happened would appear to indicate that they knew all along that what they were doing was not “kosher” but the allure of a new car, or whatever is they got, was more important than Cliff’s future. If there is one player that could have used a second year in college is Cliff; I just don’t see him as a lottery pick and based on what I have seen throughout the season, late first round might be the most optimistic outlook, although I believe he night be now in second round/Development/League/China territory. The place where he could have showcased his talent and impressed scouts (NCAA Tournament) seems now like a highly unlikely scenario.
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@drgnslayr Suppose Cliff is ineligible because of what happened in August. Why would he be ineligible starting now? Why wouldn’t he be ineligible starting in August, especially if he knew of, or was a party to, whatever was done?
Derrick Rose was declared ineligible retroactively and Memphis had its season vacated.
Why couldn’t this happen to KU? Isn’t there a chance, however slight, that our Conference title streak might be in danger?
If that is the case, there is more at stake than Cliff’s eligibility going forward, and the lawyer could be doing our past a favor by stonewalling.
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The clear implication was that Memphis knew Rose was ineligible early on but played him anyway. KU, on the other hand, did the right thing and as soon as they found out about a potential issue he did no play anymore. TTBOMK, no one at KU knew about what was happening in Chicago, so it would be unrealistic to expect a school to act on information it did not have or even suspected.
I will guess that KU attorneys are busy at work protecting the interests of the program.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
The clear implication was that Memphis knew Rose was ineligible early on but played him anyway.
Ah, didn’t know that. Thanks.
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@globaljaybird Sweet memories you brought back of Cole taking it to Hansborough. The look on Hansborough’s face was priceless. Like who is this guy and doesn’t he know who I am?
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@brooksmd a favorite game!!! We were all shocked. I love Cole!
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Jayhawkfantoo has the correct reply. Memphis knew about Rose and not only played him, but participated in the cover up.
I’m of the opinion that Kansas will not go down for this. They reacted properly IMMEDIATELY upon hearing from the NCAA and has already gone on the record as having no prior knowledge. Unless that is a lie, they shouldn’t be punished.
A great “ace in the hole” for Kansas is the fact that we have perhaps the very best compliance program in the country. If my memory serves me right, our program is a model program that has received a lot of praise by the NCAA. That means they have also done a good job in communicating the rules and what is proper and improper behavior to recruits and players. And of course, this is all documented to a high legal standard.
Kansas does more than talk lip service about compliance.
Even with all of that in place, problems can still arise, as we see here.
Personally… I’m not losing sleep over this story. I’ve already put it to bed that Cliff is done with Kansas, and Kansas will retain #11… and in one more year, will bump that to #12!
My only concern is recruiting another post player to replace Cliff.
RCJH!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Had to go over to youtube and relive that.
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@brooksmd I was at that game with my dad with great seats-paid a ton of cash for the tickets but it was worth it. I remember being worried Psycho-T would explode when Cole went in. It was just the opposite. What a delightful outcome for the minutes he put in.
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@JayhawkRock78 that’s really cool you were there!!
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@JayhawkRock78 I think a few people felt the same.
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If I were ever subject to an NCAA investigation, I would not cooperate, either.
All you have to know about the NCAA and credibility is this:
The NCAA restored Penn State’s record books of wins previously vacated during the time when a football coach on staff was committing criminal acts at the university and taking advantage of young children under the auspices of charity and his role at the university.
The NCAA has deleted all mentions of Michigan basketball and the Final Fours achieved by the “Fab Five” because some of those players may have accepted “impermissible benefits.”
So, just for anyone keeping track at home
Criminal Acts by an Assistant Coach = OK, wins restored to program.
Accepting Money by Athletes = Terrible, all wins and accomplishments deleted from the record books.
Seems someone may have their priorities mixed up.
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@justanotherfan Swish !!
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@DanR Dan, +100 on your sentiment, and my thoughts exactly. But, when the dumbassess work for financial institutions (FannieMae, FreddieMac, & big banks), and the govt has to do a stupid federal bailout…its a major breakdown. First we all pay with our hard-earned tax dollars, as if there aren’t enough governmental black holes for our tax $ to disappear into…(and they always want more, it seems). Second, how many of the dumbass executives actually suffered consequences? No, they actually got “let go” with 6-figure parachute clauses. Ya, I’d jump out of a perfectly good aer-o-plane with that kind of parachute. Thirdly, the pure business philosophy of survival of the fittest, which usually weeds out bad biz, simply could not be allowed to happen with the bank bailouts, due to catastrophic financial repercussions. “Internal” checks/balances, like proper loan qualifications, failed, and a federal bailout simply has put major egg on the face of big-banking.
I guess my point is about all-around responsibility vs irresponsibility, at all levels. Yes, to agree with another poster…that IS too many dumbasses. Sadder still, is the amt of dumbasses grows faster than the amt of intelligent people.
Finally, people don’t deserve anything they didn’t earn. Cliff didn’t earn anything yet. He simply hasn’t proved that he has against college competition. Jalil Okafor HAS. Embiid DID. Now there is no reason Cliff cannot be a better player than Tyler Hansbrough was, or equal to Thomas Robinson…but he’s got to show it. Bring it. Consistency. But I’ll cut him a break, as he is a learning frosh in Self’s system. And mommy may not have told him what she did in August’14. Impatience-killed-the-cat, or in this case, a Jayhawk. Cliff, I feel for ya, brother.
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Sadder still, is the amt of dumbasses grows faster than the amt of intelligent people.
And faster than the amount of money they can extract from taxpayers so they go spending money they don’t have and that our grandchildren will be paying. I say cut government in half and the only difference we will see is little more money in our wallets and a whole lot of fat-assed federal workers having to do actual work for a living. I work with the Federal government and I know if it is cut in half we would not be able to tell the difference. While at it, cut the Senate term to 1-6 year term and the Congress to 3- 2 year terms and get back to having citizen legislators and not professional politicians.
Stepping down from the soap box. Apologies if any one was offended by my comments.
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@JayHawkFanToo Granted this is a basketball and sports forum, not really a politics forum. But my two cents… professional politicians are just killing this country. Citizen legislators with a true sense of what the real needs of people in this country are, instead of special interests and their own pocket books, etc. Its lame. Im so cynical in regards to ALL politicians not just the right or left. Everyone. They can all go suck a you know what honker
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With house races costing upwards o $10M and senate races 5 times that, the averages congressman has to raise at least $300k per moth in office; no wonder they don’t have time to do actual work. Sorry about the politics; last post on the subject and now back to sports…:)
