My crisis of faith in Bill
-
@dylans My thought is Andy will ride it out with Mahomes but he is already 66 so who knows. That is a reset I am NOT looking forward to at all.
-
@BShark I’m going to have a hard time watching football post Mahomes, but if they both retire at the same time…Yikes! It’ll be devastating.
-
@MoonwalkMafia In KJs absense we should play Rylan and Keese at the 4. Maybe give Storr another chance too, see if we can get him going.
When KJ comes back he should get some playing time at both the 4 and 5, but we should continue to play small ball a lot.
-
@Jhawk69 I’m starting to remember why I found this board frustrating in the first place. It’s hard to have this debate one well thought out screed at a time.
The examples you chose are fascinating. Naadir Tharpe and Kevin Young were pretty effective players on pretty talented teams during the years where Frank and Perry played behind them, though they both played a lot their freshman years. KJ Adams is not an effective player, nor is he on a team where we can afford for him to play 35 minutes, get 2 rebounds and 4 points.
Frank Mason is one of the greatest players in KU history. And I’d argue that Perry Ellis should probably be in the rafters. You could see how good these guys were their freshman years. Does anyone remember when Perry Ellis went nuclear against a phenomenal Iowa State team in the big 12 tournament as a freshman!?
But let’s not get too far away from what this debate is essentially about. Playing KJ Adams over players with more upside who make our offense more dynamic.
Bill Self said about KJ’s absence: “He’s played so well the last four games. He’s been without question our best and most consistent performer. I think that’s a blow…” This is delusional.
KJ can’t score. Other teams are daring him to shoot because it’s essentially a takeaway for them. They can sag off of him and our centers have to fend off 3 guys for a rebound. On the defensive end, he’s great at being in position, but he’s undersized guarding the 4 or 5 so he’s easy to score over. Griffen and Flory offer better alternatives to him.
I don’t know what else to say at this point. My whole argument with the Cliff, Cheik, Elijah comparisons were that this isn’t new. It’s who Self has always been. And if you’re still defending this, then I hope you like round of 32 losses.
-
I wasn’t really talking about KJ. The point is that I believe Bill Self’s choices in the past are not evidence of a stubborn will to play less talented but more experienced players to the detriment of the team. He assesses who gives us the best chance to win and plays that player. He doesn’t bat 100 but he is right more than wrong and is right more than any of us on this board.
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
-
@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
Now that, I would agree with!
-
@dylans I hesitated to include him for reasons like you said but then others might point him out since he contributed positively here.
-
I have decided to stop worrying about why we’re not a dominant team… it has been well laid out by many posters here what is wrong the program when seen thru the lens of super high expectations. We are what we are. Let’s just hope that they can jell and play as tough as possible. They are my team win or lose.
-
@Bosthawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
They are my team win or lose.
I will state my dissatisfaction and complain. I will gnash my teeth. I won’t only state my dissatisfaction and only complain. I won’t only gnash my teeth, but also revel in the victories within the game not just on the scoreboard. I will enjoy the wins. I will take the good with the bad. I will enjoy the growth and wins. I will feel bad in the losses and down times. I won’t take the good times for granted. I am a Jayhawk in all times.
…but man the NIL.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 thanks for the refresher. All that up in your head? Steel trap, well done.
-
@dylans well also, if KU had the rosters Duke had over the last decade I dont think we would have people irritated with minutes distribution, Self could throw darts blindfolded and roll out 5 studs, but I might be mistaken.
-
Long time no see guys. I think we’ll be ok. Bill is generally flexible. He fell in love with an old love (big man ball) but I’m sure he’ll snap out of it. Just give him a little time, he’s earned it.
-
People complain about Bill’s minutes distrubutions for 2 reasons
-
They do not understand the difference between talent and impact on the game.
-
They do not understand trade-offs.
I talked about talent vs impact above. I will explain tradeoffs here.
There are certain traits that fans want to see in their teams basketball players. If players have such traits, they think that those players are good. If not, they think they are bad. But, these few traits fans judge are not the only traits that impact a game. So a player lacking in a desired trait might be exceptional in other traits. If this player is given minutes instead of someone who has a more desired trait but does not have other traits, it is a trade-off. You trade one skillset for another. Because there are no perfect players, and because every player has different traits and abilities, all playing time decisions involve trade-offs. A coaches job is not to roll out a perfect team, but to analyze the trade-offs and get the best one possible. This will inevitably involve the sacrifice of certain traits being on the floor.
Many of you will claim that this is obvious, but it is clear that not all of you understand it well enough to incorporate it into your opinions of our players and of how our team is managed.
-
-
@COHawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Many interesting and some valid points have been raised. It’s so easy to look for mistakes, issues, etc. in coaches and players, especially when we certainly have been spoiled throughout the years. Chemistry is such a huge part of any team; this team right now doesn’t seem to have tons of it. Also seem to be similar to the past couple years in that we’re not very mentally or physically tough. Hard to believe that no one has brought up how bad David McCormick was several years ago and how HCBS protected him. Too soft to be a big winner. Seem to recall Remy was not too highly thought of either for a good part of the year.
Other than the 2019 pieced together Lawson crew this is easily the weakest mental team of the Self era
-
@Jhawk69 very valid but Self built this team to have a bench. Dude even said he was thinking about this team while we was getting spanked by Gonzaga. Not sure what planet that at least a fair portion of the blame isn’t on Self and his inability to build a team.
-
@Jhawk69 all of that is pretty obvious today
-
This team was preseason #1
-
@AsadZ That’s normal for Bill. People value his consistency but don’t see the full picture so he gets plenty of hand picked rosters, preseason #1’s and we flame out early
After 30 years of watching it’s his scheme/style of play and definitely roster decisions with how he handles players differently and unfortunately it is elevating middling guys into starter roles that should be there and he holds back the guys with better talent because always in his mind “they aren’t ready”. He doesn’t comprehend letting them play through it and be more equipped in March versus October/November
-
I’ve always had my issues with Self, but ultimately, his overall body of work speaks for itself. And I’m not a D1 coach and I don’t attend team practices. Still… I’ll always be a backseat Jayhawk driver. What bugs me:
-
Why don’t we come ready to play? We don’t focus on inspiration. This has always been my biggest complaint.
-
We don’t change up strategies for who we play. It’s our way or we lose. I do think we are finally adapting slightly. Why don’t we learn a real press? Why don’t we learn better fast break offense?
-
We don’t develop players enough. Our guys usually maintain about the same level of basketball IQ during their stay. Skill levels don’t drastically change either. Strengthening modest, too.
-
Our guys are soft. Our teams usually are.
I say all of this stuff then 2022 happened and we looked like the best teams in March and we proved it!
-
-
@Jhawk69 @Jhawk69 The evidence and history of under achieving in March actually proves what those arguing with you are saying.
KJ’s doesn’t “overcome his offensive liabilities by doing stuff to make up for it” with what? Defensive rebounding - nope
What does he contribute exactly?
-
@Jhawk69 No, I think people do understand that and it’s the difference in who plays, who has a leash and who has “trust” versus who doesn’t.
Anyone who’s played any sort of high level sports knows when your coach allows you to play through mistakes you have a free mind and play hard.
If you are on the wrong side of your coach and with any mistake or 2 you are back on the bench - you play the exact opposite
What I’d argue is if those guys were given the same confidence and leash their impact would have been better because of their abilities shown in brief minutes (while knowing a mistake = a yank). You see the potential/impact and that’s the coaches entire job is to pull it out of them so the team plays its best versus suppressing it. What’s even more maddening is he’s doing this with Veteran guys from other programs while his 4/5 year program guys constantly eff up and are allowed to play through it. This stuff is seen and causing serious dissension which is yet again more proof of his mishandlings. Cal following the same path right now as well - go figure.
Self always trades off the guys he trusts to be in the right spot even if that can’t make the play over letting the guy like Cliff or whomever screw up games in Oct/Nov/Dec and hopefully get it by Feb/March. His patience is very poor and his shortsightedness is why he doesn’t have more titles. I mean Flory/Kj is current proof yet again.
2022 was a completely anomaly and made up for 2010’s collapse against vcu. That took Remy saving us from a Juan meltdown (rd32, sw 16 and title game) while he was literally surrounded by 3 nba wings and the MOP big man.
Self can’t comprehend this which the proof is he never attempted to recruit over him or kj for that matter.
-
@Jhawk69 Cliff wasn’t some significantly worse defender
Jamari was good for a chase down lebron block but he was poor in half court and zero threat offensively at the 4 spot (sound familiar)
The excuse of oh he will pick it up in his second year is trash. You have a long armed athletic big and if you can’t teach him to semi defend in 4-6 months you aren’t good at your job. It shouldn’t take that long to teach defense to a stud high school big who had lateral quickness.
Hey speaking of that 4 man not being a threat to score let’s add some more proof….
That year ended in….you guessed it a rd of 32 double digit loss 78-65 to wsu of all teams
Our team had Mason, Graham, Oubre, Selden and Ellis - didn’t get the talent together to score but rather “make guys play worse than us”.
Better to just focus on you playing your best consistently….
When you start to really dig in it gets ugly with all the talent we’ve had.
I heard Tony Bennett of the Midwest and it’s legitimately true as of today. Consistent, won some conference titles, flame out early a lot. Got 1 legit Title with the 3 year guys returning in 2008.
2022 guys returning and the portal miracle. Other portal years aren’t even coming close which is the frustration
-
Watch Hunter manage his own game and decide how much energy he chooses to expend on each play. He only has a certain amount of gas in the tank and he decides when he uses it based on a likely outcome of how much impact his presence will lead to a successful end. He knows what is going on all the time and takes into consideration the score and game clock when he decides to act. It may be whether to make one of his suicide dribble drives or hand it off to Juan or Zeke at the top of the key. I think maybe he has inspired Flory to try the suicide dribble drive thing but Flory starts the drive from the defensive foul line instead of his own foul line like his mentor does. You can’t deny it cause you have seen it too! Flory is ballsy enough to do it in a game where Bill gets that oh shit look. I can see the guys back in the dorm say good one dude coach about passed out.
-
The Chiefs won by sacking Houston and about knocking out their QB. I left the game thinking about that and a Taylor - Travis - Caitlin sandwich with chips and a Pepsi. I better go back to bed a snuggle up to my own warm baby.
-
@kuballin10 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Jhawk69 Cliff wasn’t some significantly worse defender
Jamari was good for a chase down lebron block but he was poor in half court and zero threat offensively at the 4 spot (sound familiar)
The excuse of oh he will pick it up in his second year is trash. You have a long armed athletic big and if you can’t teach him to semi defend in 4-6 months you aren’t good at your job. It shouldn’t take that long to teach defense to a stud high school big who had lateral quickness.
Hey speaking of that 4 man not being a threat to score let’s add some more proof….
That year ended in….you guessed it a rd of 32 double digit loss 78-65 to wsu of all teams
Our team had Mason, Graham, Oubre, Selden and Ellis - didn’t get the talent together to score but rather “make guys play worse than us”.
Better to just focus on you playing your best consistently….
When you start to really dig in it gets ugly with all the talent we’ve had.
I heard Tony Bennett of the Midwest and it’s legitimately true as of today. Consistent, won some conference titles, flame out early a lot. Got 1 legit Title with the 3 year guys returning in 2008.
2022 guys returning and the portal miracle. Other portal years aren’t even coming close which is the frustration
Perry wasn’t a threat to score? Wow that’s a take. That team was also ravaged by injuries by the end. Wayne and Perry were hurt. Cliff had his family issues. The guy that Bill refused to play (BIFM) played 34 MPG that year. Cliff was an absolute foul magnet. He never played man defense in high school (he was the middle of the 2-3 back line) so every minute was a learning experience. As such, he messed up A LOT.
There’s so much revisionist history around Remy, Cliff, and Cheick it’s impossible to have a conversation. The underlying facts aren’t debatable yet people shoehorn their narratives anyway. Cheick’s advanced stats in league play weren’t even that good. And one thing around Landen. Doke passed him a handful of games before he got hurt. Can folks do basic research before popping off? Who would you have played at the 5 other than Landen against Oregon? Dwight? We steamrolled the field before running into Nova in 16.
The Tony Bennett comp is laughable. Bill hasn’t gone a season without a tournament win (barring crazy circumstances) in 20 years. Bennett hasn’t won a tournament game in 5 years.
-
@FarmerJayhawk All correct points and none of it will be read or matter to who needs to comprehend it.
-
@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny!
-
@Crimsonorblue22 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny and I’d like to hear more about the Tay Tray Cait sandwich
I probably should leave that be and in the conference final who knows there may be a different top or bottom bun in play.
-
I think Storr is understanding our system better which is good because I don’t. Griffen did not hoist up one shot. I keep hoping for the trey explosion to come to fruition but not yet. Come on guys you are just remaining anonymous for no reason all I ask is a clean open on balance try. If it’s not there then you may want to guard better because opposing teams are getting those looks. Bill can only yank you in turn and put you back in for the next yank. BTW my grand nephew has a good year with the Jets. 30 carries for 174 yards (5.8) 1 TD. 9 receptions 74 yards 1 TD. 7 solo tackles and 9 returns for 232 yards. Thanks for listening.
-
@Zabudda ooooohhh! I’m erasing my thought!
-
@Zabudda Rylan had a beautiful drive and dump pass to Hunter I think for a layup or dunk. Very unselfish!
-
@kuballin10 Good morning. You made a lot of interesting points and I will try to respond succinctly.
Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.
There is no reason to bicker about Cliff vs Jamari anyways because Self started Cliff in hopes of helping him click, but then Cliff got suspended and Self had to play Jamari.
Under-achieving in March has much more to do with choking than it does not having a talented enough lineup out there. If you can go 30-4 or whatever in the regular season you are good enough to beat anyone. But you could lose to anyone if you choke.
KJ has both strengths and weaknesses. I am well aware of both. His biggest strength is defense. The KSU game suggests that his defense helps us more than his lack of shooting hurts us.
You are right about Bill Self having longer leashes with some players than he does with others. Everyone makes mistakes so you can’t yank everyone after one. Players that Bill assesses as good are indeed allowed to play through mistakes more than players Bill believes are not as good. Bill gives all his scholarship players chances to earn his trust. He then assigns levels of trust according to how well he thinks they play.
This often results in younger players, who have not had the same chance to earn Bill’s trust, having shorter leashes than older players, even in cases where the younger player has more talent and potential than the older player (recall: more talent and potential does not guarantee superior basketball abilities in the present moment or the near future). But Bill does allow young but talented players to have a chance to earn his trust. If they come in, play hard, and do a few good things alongside a mistake, they probably won’t get yanked. But if they do nothing positive and then make a mistake, they will get yanked.
Should Bill give players who are not as good a leash that is equally as long as better players? I would argue no. The system of reward when things go well and punishment when things don’t has been a backbone of human development, and is the basis for rearing children and economic growth. But, reasonable minds can disagree. A case could be made that allowing certain players to play through several mistakes would help mentally.
Also, arguing that our 2022 title wasn’t legit comes across as a desperate attempt to discredit our program. To be more convincing, you have to acknowledge our success and argue that our short-comings are still enough to cancel it out.
Like I said, very succinct response lol. Rock Chalk.
-
@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.
Man…you can keep saying this, it doesn’t make it true. They fouled at about the same rater per minute, but Cliff was a much better defensive rebounder and Jamari turned the ball over twice as much as Cliff.
It’s hard to find defensive rating or defensive efficiency rating statistics from a pretty forgettable season 10 years ago, but I did come across an article from the Daily Kansan that sums up the situation pretty well. This was from a game at Stillwater in mid-February. Here are some excerpts:
Heading to the half against the Cowboys, the Kansas Jayhawks held a 41-30 lead, and it looked as if the team was well on its way to winning a sixth-consecutive game. Frank Mason, Brannen Greene and Cliff Alexander had flat-out dominated the first half, with a combined 27 points on 10-of-11 shooting from the field. Alexander in particular was having a strong game, as he posted eight points and four rebounds in 12 first half minutes.
However, Bill Self opted to put his first half starters back on the court to begin the second half. With that group on the floor, the Jayhawks allowed the Cowboys to go on a 8-1 run, before Self decided to reinsert Alexander and Greene.
Things settled down a bit…but for whatever reason, Self decided it was time to take Alexander out, despite the fact that the freshman big man hadn’t really done anything wrong in the two minutes on the court… Nonetheless, Self made the change, putting Landen Lucas into the game for Alexander. Lucas didn’t do much for the team overall, racking up just one offensive rebound in his seven minutes of playing time in the second half. Lucas did not record any other statistics during that stretch, but Self continued to stick with him.
When Alexander returned to the game about seven minutes later, he appeared to overcompensate for what he likely felt was his one mistake earlier, hedging too high on a pick and roll, as Oklahoma State capitalized for a two-point basket. Again, one mistake was enough for Self, who took Alexander out of the game after just two minutes. Without Alexander being allowed to settle down and get into a rhythm, he never had a chance to get going like he did in the first half. The Jayhawks faltered down the stretch, and that was that; Oklahoma State won by five.
Jamari Traylor, who played 27 minutes in the game (to Alexander’s 16), had another shaky outing, committing six turnovers, which added to a streak that has sort of gone under the radar. In six of his last seven games, Traylor has record more points than missed field goals and turnovers just one time, while Alexander, on the other hand, has done exactly the opposite. In the freshman’s last seven games, he’s had more points than misses and turnovers six times, and in the one game he didn’t, he recorded zero turnovers.
Going back to Saturday’s loss against Oklahoma State, Self called his team’s effort on the glass “soft,” which was somewhat comical, given the fact that Self handcuffed one of his best rebounders to the bench for most of the night. When Alexander played 12 minutes in the first half, the Jayhawks outrebounded the Cowboys 20-9, which included a 7-3 advantage on the offensive glass. Kansas outscored Oklahoma State by 11 in that period. However, in the second half, Alexander played just four minutes, and the Cowboys dominated the boards, outrebounding the Jayhawks 26-15 (9-6 on the offensive glass). The Cowboys outscored the Jayhawks by 16 points over that period, and Traylor really didn’t help the cause at all, recording just one rebound and three turnovers in ten minutes.
It’s the same story 10 years later. It’s incredible that Self allowed Jamari to make mistake after mistake only to pull Cliff at the smallest one. It’s the type of thing that leads to a player’s confidence just cratering. It happened with Cliff, it’s happened to innumerable young KU players–it’s happening again this year! It’s getting to the point where I wouldn’t blame a young player for choosing not to play at KU, even if it makes the most sense.
Even if we were to accept the premise that Jamari was better on defense, which I don’t, it was marginal at best. What little you would gain from him on defense do not offset his deficiencies elsewhere, which were numerous.
As this issue is not new, so too is this debate within the fanbase about Self as a coach not new. I heard someone say recently, if you’re still trying to justify these head-scratching decisions that Bill Self makes after all these years, you’re not a KU fan. You’re a Bill Self fan.
-
@MoonwalkMafia That was the one good game Cliff played in all of conference play. That is an example of cherry picking.
Jamari could stay in position better than Cliff. He could switch onto guards (and Cliff could not). Again, NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT JAMARI WAS A GREAT PLAYER.
But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?
-
@MoonwalkMafia I became a KU fan the season Bill Self became coach. Being a Self fan and being a KU fan have been synonymous to me this whole time.
I am still a Self fan and a KU fan, but the two are no longer synonymous.
Thanks for the article. Good find.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 One of the finest plays in the game.
-
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kansas/men/2015.html
Go look at the advanced numbers. Jamari was the better overall defensive player over Cliff, and Cliff was the better overall option on offense. Jamari had the better defensive +/- and win shares while Cliff was better in each category on offense.
The debate over Morningstar and Elijah is also a ridiculous debate because the advanced numbers show Brady was the superior player by a wide margin that season. The debate that season really be between Elijah and Josh Selby because he’s the guy that played way more minutes than he should have been.
-
@Jhawk69 This is another instance of “just because you say it doesn’t make it true.”
Baylor: 12 points, 5 rebounds, 2 blocks. Oklahoma: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 1 block @Texas: 15 points, 9 rebounds, 1 block @Texas Tech: 10 points, 5 rebounds, 4 blocks
This is to say nothing of the game in the article I referenced when Cliff was basically held out of the second half, or other games where similar things happened. There are more examples.
@Texas-Hawk-10 This can be kinda ‘fun with numbers’ so to speak, but I’ll bite.
Am I missing something? Jamari’s defensive rating was 96.9, Cliff’s was 95.0. I see what you’re saying with defensive +/-. Jamari is 4.6 vs. Cliff at 3.3. Which one’s right? I’d say defensive rating is more important since it focuses specifically on points allowed when the player is on the court versus +/- which looks at the score differential when a player is playing, which can change for a variety of reasons. Either way, it’s a pretty marginal difference.
Cliff’s offensive rating was 118.2, while Jamari’s was 94.7. Now that’s a gap. Also win shares. Cliff’s was 2.3, Jamari’s was 1.5. When just considering defense, itJamari 1.3 to Cliff 1.0. Again, this is marginal and whatever deficiencies Cliff had he made up for on the offensive end, Jamari couldn’t. When breaking WS out over the course of 40 minutes, Cliff’s was the highest on the team. Jamari was 10th.
I don’t really care about the Brady Morningstar debate. He was bad. Elijah was young, and Selby never really got going after the game against USC (shrug). All i know is that against VCU, Brady looked like me out there.
-
Once again I put to you the question,
But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?
-
@drgnslayr The thing that has me screaming or maturely quietly scowling at the TV is my perception that we repeatedly have to dig ourselves out of deficits after the first 5-10 minutes of games. Brick a few shots and we are down by double digits and have one of our 25-30 point halves. Then the warning from the announcers to the viewing audience “you know KU at some point will make a run.” Shorten the game to 30 minutes and be down 28 - 42 at the half. And we make a run.
-
The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting.
Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.
-
@Jhawk69 I don’t disagree with you. I told you at the beginning, I think Self saw the writing on the wall. Which is why he started Cliff his last 5 or 6 games. Whatever it was. But I just can’t abide this idea that Jamari was the better option. Really, I was just trying to highlight the stubbornness that has held KU back at times.
I noticed nobody took issue with me bringing up how ridiculous Self’s “fools gold” comments. Do people remember that? It was crazy!
-
This post is deleted!
-
@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting. Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.
Boom. Well said. I will completely wear that one.
-
@MoonwalkMafia Brady was hardly the only KU player with a bad game against VCU. Reed went 1-7 from three. Markeiff Morris had 8 turnovers. KU as a team was 15-28 from the FT line. That loss was a complete team effort, not just Brady.
Elijah to me is the most overhyped player of that era. Elijah was 36% from 3 to Brady’s 53% in conference play. Elijah had 30% turnover rate to Brady’s 13%. That’s the big one. For a position that has the ball in their hands quite a bit, a 30% turnover rate is unacceptable. Elijah had more total turnovers than Brady in conference play despite playing less than half the minutes Brady did. Turnovers were that team’s achilles heel and Brady was the one guy who didn’t turn the ball over very frequently.
-
@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Jhawk69 I don’t disagree with you. I told you at the beginning, I think Self saw the writing on the wall. Which is why he started Cliff his last 5 or 6 games. Whatever it was. But I just can’t abide this idea that Jamari was the better option. Really, I was just trying to highlight the stubbornness that has held KU back at times.
I noticed nobody took issue with me bringing up how ridiculous Self’s “fools gold” comments. Do people remember that? It was crazy!
Jamari was a junior and Cliff was a true freshman. As the year went along, Cliff started developing as he was adjusting to the physicality of D1 basketball. I don’t think anyone is genuinely trying to say that Jamari was the higher ceiling player, but for most of the season, Jamari did have a much higher floor than Cliff. As Cliff developed, his floor got higher and that’s why he eventually moved into the starting line up towards the end of the season.
-
@MoonwalkMafia Fair enough. But in what way was Self stubborn about Jamari and Cliff?
-
Just watched Udeh and TCU take down Baylor at Baylor. Udeh went for 18. Can’t believe we let him slip away.
-
I don’t think to many really thought he was worth saving,
-
@drgnslayr Yes and 15 boards.
