My crisis of faith in Bill
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@MoonwalkMafia Andrew White was from Chester Virginia. He was at the YMCA shooting around with his dad a couple times when I lived there. Frank Mason was from Petersburg Virginia, about 8 minutes south of Chester and my boys attended the basketball camp he ran for several years.
It was pretty interesting watching one of these local players enter Self’s circle of trust, and the other finding himself on the outside looking in.
Andrew White was a good kid and could have helped KU. He seemed to be coming on when he got hurt. Once he got injured he got squeezed out of the rotation and never got a real shake thereafter.
It was confusing to me as I am sure it was to him.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Udeh not worthless now, that’s for sure & I’ll stick with my theory, you can stick to yours. – I wouldn’t have a problem witheither
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@approxinfinity Who are you playing White over during his sophomore season? Are you playing him over Andrew Wiggins? Are you playing him over Perry Ellis? Are you playing him over Wayne Selden? Those are the 3 guys White was competing with for minutes.
White wasn’t a bad player, he just wasn’t better than any of those players. And really, Wayne Selden is why White left because he wasn’t going to jump Selden in the rotation. White made the right decision to transfer out because he was never going to reach the NBA ar KU playing behind Selden.
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@SlimShaddy54 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Udeh not worthless now, that’s for sure & I’ll stick with my theory, you can stick to yours. – I wouldn’t have a problem witheither
Where did I say Udeh was worthless? I said he was useless more than 5’ from the basket and there’s plenty of evidence of that. Remember the games where Doke was rendered useless because he couldn’t do anything outside of the paint? That’s Udeh. If Udeh was wearing a KU uniform and played 28 minutes against Houston and didn’t attempt a single FG, didn’t get to the FT line, amd only had 4 rebounds, this site would’ve had a meltdown over stat line (and yes, that was his stat line when TCU played Houston a couple of weeks ago).
Udeh, like Doke, is able to be taken out of games because he has minimal skill more than 5’ from the basket.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp
Neither played that many minutes and didn’t steal time from White. All 3 played spot minutes and none were part of the rotation. Frankamp didn’t play in 8 games and Greene didn’t play in 7 games that season and none of those DNP’s were injury related for Frankamp or Greene.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.
None of them played every game, that’s the point. Frankamp didn’t play 8 games and Greene didn’t play in 7 games. White only played half the season. Andrew White wasn’t going to magically play 20 minutes per game if he stayed healthy and took all of Frankamp and Greene’s minutes. Even if White had stayed healthy, he was never going to get rotation level minutes because there were a combined 15 games that season that Greene and Frankamp never checked into. Again, Andrew White’s competition for minutes that season were Andrew Wiggins, Perry Ellis, and Wayne Selden.
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You don’t have to tough it out, the first sign of adversity just transfer. Don’t grow and overcome, just look for a better situation in the near term.
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A slight bit of perspective. Larry Brown, one of the GOATs, was 0-5 in Ames. Not gonna spend the time to look at Roy Williams in Ames but that place has always been a nightmare for KU even as we had overall better teams than them most years.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn’t need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.
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Good conversation here. Enjoyed reading it.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Well I guess it depends where you or how you were brought up. When I was growing up worthless & useless is ummm pretty dam close to the same thing.
Now tonight Udeh which they was playing Baylor by the way , pretty dm good quality opponent, no Saint Marys sisters of the blind-- Like I said Had 16 points- - - – - 15 rebounds and 3 blocks - wouldn’t really call that even useless. You see there ARE things a player can do without scoring lights out. For some reason so many people seem to think that all that matters is scoring and they don’t take into account all the other aspects of the game… Which if you can’t be happy with a 15 rebound performance & 3 blocks well then I’m sorry you can’t appreciate all faucets of the game, that’s on you. I’d take Udeh in a heart beat-- - -I’d take Zuby in a heart beat it’s a win, win either way as far as I’m concerned. -Again you should be able to have a Udeh type on the team without him having to go out and put big scoring numbers THAT’S what there are four others on the floor that is or are capable of doing that.
Every player on the team has a role to play— your wings score, your point guard s role is to control the offense & runs the offense - -your 3 & 4 have roles to play/ Score, and your five their responsibility is to more then most is to rebound, & rim protect – and if they score more that’s a bonus but not a requirement. Again you have or should have 4 other players on the floor who should be capable of doing that.
It’s ok I’ll still or would take Udeh-- -and I would take Zuby- either one would be great, I don’t have to choose one or the other. - it’s a Win , Win- -You take Zuby— that’s great he is a great choice too, I think it was bad to let both of them get away, – Thing is Udeh did get to the free throw line-- -Udeh did get rebounds, sure it wasn’t Houston , BUT still like I said Baylor isn’t anyone to laugh at either - - -they are a legit program also and Udeh doing this on Baylors home Court against pretty dam good athletes --Have a good night
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn’t need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.
Self used an 8 man rotation that season. 4.5 back court players and 3.5 front court players. Tharpe, Wiggins, Selden, Ellis, Embiid, Mason, Black, and Traylor. Ellis is the 0.5 for each level since he was the 4, but mostly played on the perimeter. Mason, Black, and Traylor were the rotation players off the bench that season.
Embiid, Ellis, Black, and Traylor’s minutes that year were very close to 80 minutes per game so that was the front court rotation with Landen Lucas getting some spot minutes whenever Embiid was injured.
Mason primarily subbed for Tharpe and Selden with those 3 combining for 76 of the 80 minutes at the two back court spots. Wiggins was at 33 mpg that season basically leaving about 7 minutes per game for the wing spot and 4 more back court minutes for a grand total of 11 extra minutes per game of spot duty. Frankamp got the majority of those extra 4 back court minutes since he was a back court player and not a wing. All three of Greene, Frankamp, and White brought the same skill set to the table, outside shooting. But none of those three were very good at that skill that season. Greene shot 33%, White 32%, and Frankamp 31% from 3 so the one skill each was supposed to bring to the table was something none of them were able to actually do that season.
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@SlimShaddy54 Worthless and useless do not have the same meaning so that means somebody failed you in life since you don’t know the difference between those two words. Udoka Azubuike was also useless outside of 5’ from the basket, but that doesn’t he was a worthless player. It simply means his skill set was non existent more than a couple of step away from the basket, same as Udeh.
Your also using Udeh’s career high in points to claim he’s better than Zuby when Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg this season. What category that’s relevant for their positions is Udeh better than Zuby in? Also, St. John’s has also played Baylor this season and Zuby went for 22 and 10 that game
Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 2.0 bpg, 69% FT shooting on 6.3 attempts per game and is at 62% shooting inside the arc and 57% overall while playing 29.7 mpg.
Udeh is averaging 7.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 54% FT shooting on 3.9 attempts per game and is at 61.7% from the field with no outside attempts.
If you’re going to keep arguing the guy averaging 7 and 8 for a mid to low tier P5 schools is better than a guy averaging 15 and 8 for a 1st place P5 team, then you truly need to readjust your evaluation abilities because you might be the only person who would take Udeh over Zuby at this point.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.
We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.
Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.
There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.
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@approxinfinity Andrew White was never the better overall player between himself and Selden. His role at KU was always going to be coming off the bench playing lesser minutes because of who was ahead of him. Transferring was the best decision for White because he wouldn’t have had his cup of coffee in the NBA staying at KU.
None of this means White was a bad player because he wasn’t. It just means that the mid level 4 star recruit got recruited over by a pair of 5 star players who were better overall players than White and there wasn’t a pathway to starters minutes for him at KU until potentially his senior year.
Let’s say White never transfers and sticks at KU for his last two seasons, what’s his path to becoming a starter? Let’s just acknowledge that White was never going to start over Selden and Ellis, so for what would’ve been his junior season, his competition for minutes was Kelly Oubre, Greene, and Svi. I could easily see him playing over Greene and Svi, but I don’t see him staying in front of Oubre all season. That would probably put White in the 20 mpg range his junior season and going down as Oubre kept developing.
Let’s say at that point that White then decides to stay for his senior season at KU which would’ve been the 2015-16 team. There is an open starting spot that season that ultimately went to Devonte Graham so that would be the battle for White because we know he was never starting over Ellis and Selden. Would White have been able to beat out Graham for that starting spot in 2015-16 if he stayed all 4 years at Kansas?
So again, Andrew White was never a bad player, just someone who was here at a time when Self was at his peak in recruiting and White was stuck behind players who were just better overall than he was so he made the correct decision to go elsewhere to give himself the best chance to reach the NBA which he did.
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.
We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.
Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.
There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.
Didn’t Brannen Green basically take the role from White?
Also, the staff wanted to keep White if I recall. But he wanted a larger role that we couldn’t give him.
Last but not least, there is a reason why he fit the Syracuse team. He wasn’t nearly as exposed as a defender in that zone.
And like I’m a huge Andrew White fan. I thought he was going to be a star here, and was very sad to see him go.
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@Kcmatt7 Greene was one of the best shooters I can recall playing for KU. Too bad he was such a hot head. It was heart warming to see he helped save a someone from a car wreck after getting let go, but I was hoping it was him that he saved.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 What the hell is wrong with you dude ?- - do you have a reading comprehension problem ?- -No where ever did I say I would take Udeh OVER Zuby, I said I would take Udeh in a heart beat - -I said I would also take Zuby in a heart beat either way I said was a WIN , WIN. – I wasn’t comparing Udeh’s Stats to Zuby’s stats holy shit-- I already knew Zuby stats were better thanks. -I’m not trying to nor did I say I would take UDEH OVER Zuby.- -I said I would take Udeh myself —I personally would of loved to keep them both , but knew that wasn’t happening. I stated multiple times that either way Udeh OR Zuby it was a win , win
I think we are done here. You saying someone has failed me in life , that’s my mom and dad you talking about when you say that , because they are the one’s who always said as much. Don’t really appreciate you making this personal and talking shit like that about my Parents. I’d be careful about what you say before you know who your saying it about.- - THANKS
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@SlimShaddy54 @Texas-Hawk-10 guys can we take it down a notch please? This has been a fun thread and would hate to have it get locked because people’s head explode.
Thanks.
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@approxinfinity You got it cause I’m done on this topic with this individual , not appreciated what was said but sure ain’t nothing but a thing Sorry
As a matter of fact , think it’s time to take a break from here , I know that will make a lot of people rejoice, have a party it’s all good. People don’t like what I have to say- -so be it Thanks approx you have a good board - well for the most part-- -ROCK CHALK
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@SlimShaddy54 you’re good man. Take a breather.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 @Kcmatt7 yeah, i fell asleep thinking about how that Syracuse zone might have benefited White. Selden def had the higher ceiling on the defensive end.
So Self recruits White and Greene and then declares that threes are fools gold. Thats their biggest asset as players. I am not going to pin this all on Self. Things change and we are always trying to win. Players become available and you recruit over other players. It happens. And yes, looking back the talent pipeline at that time was strong.
But it was unfortunate for White nonetheless.
I think the biggest moral of the story imo is “if you arent a good defender don’t play for Bill Self”. It just is not going to end well.
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@approxinfinity Greene was also anticipated to be the better player as well over White. White was the 69th ranked player in 2012 in what was a down recruiting cycle for KU. KU’s 2013 class was an all timer with Self landing four 5 star recruits including Greene and KU’s best player out of that 2013 class wasn’t even one of the 5 stars, it was their lowest ranked player, Frank Mason.
That 2013 class featured Wiggins, Selden, Embiid, and Greene as 5 star players, and Frankamp and Mason as 4 star players with Mason barely outside the top 50 in that class.
It also never helped White’s case for minutes here that he wasn’t a good 3 point shooter at KU. That made it easier to budget him out the door.
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That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.
I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that is fine.
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@Jhawk69 no stone unturned!
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.
I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that is fine.
Jamari Traylor was never part of the discussion until this post you just made. Traylor was the 8th man and 4th big in that rotation. He also had zero affect and White’s minutes that season because they didn’t play the same position or sub for the same players. Traylor subbed exclusively for the 4 and 5 that season season while White exclusively subbed for one of the perimeter spots.
You’ve also been ignoring the fact that Frankamp dod not play in 8 games that season because Self chose not to sub him in and that Brannen Greene did not play in 7 games because Self chose not to sub him in. Even if White got all of Frankamp and Greene’s minutes, that still leaves about 25% of the games he would not have played in because Self didn’t play more than 8 players in those games.
