My crisis of faith in Bill
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@FarmerJayhawk All correct points and none of it will be read or matter to who needs to comprehend it.
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@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny and I’d like to hear more about the Tay Tray Cait sandwich
I probably should leave that be and in the conference final who knows there may be a different top or bottom bun in play.
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I think Storr is understanding our system better which is good because I don’t. Griffen did not hoist up one shot. I keep hoping for the trey explosion to come to fruition but not yet. Come on guys you are just remaining anonymous for no reason all I ask is a clean open on balance try. If it’s not there then you may want to guard better because opposing teams are getting those looks. Bill can only yank you in turn and put you back in for the next yank. BTW my grand nephew has a good year with the Jets. 30 carries for 174 yards (5.8) 1 TD. 9 receptions 74 yards 1 TD. 7 solo tackles and 9 returns for 232 yards. Thanks for listening.
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@Zabudda ooooohhh! I’m erasing my thought!
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@Zabudda Rylan had a beautiful drive and dump pass to Hunter I think for a layup or dunk. Very unselfish!
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@kuballin10 Good morning. You made a lot of interesting points and I will try to respond succinctly.
Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.
There is no reason to bicker about Cliff vs Jamari anyways because Self started Cliff in hopes of helping him click, but then Cliff got suspended and Self had to play Jamari.
Under-achieving in March has much more to do with choking than it does not having a talented enough lineup out there. If you can go 30-4 or whatever in the regular season you are good enough to beat anyone. But you could lose to anyone if you choke.
KJ has both strengths and weaknesses. I am well aware of both. His biggest strength is defense. The KSU game suggests that his defense helps us more than his lack of shooting hurts us.
You are right about Bill Self having longer leashes with some players than he does with others. Everyone makes mistakes so you can’t yank everyone after one. Players that Bill assesses as good are indeed allowed to play through mistakes more than players Bill believes are not as good. Bill gives all his scholarship players chances to earn his trust. He then assigns levels of trust according to how well he thinks they play.
This often results in younger players, who have not had the same chance to earn Bill’s trust, having shorter leashes than older players, even in cases where the younger player has more talent and potential than the older player (recall: more talent and potential does not guarantee superior basketball abilities in the present moment or the near future). But Bill does allow young but talented players to have a chance to earn his trust. If they come in, play hard, and do a few good things alongside a mistake, they probably won’t get yanked. But if they do nothing positive and then make a mistake, they will get yanked.
Should Bill give players who are not as good a leash that is equally as long as better players? I would argue no. The system of reward when things go well and punishment when things don’t has been a backbone of human development, and is the basis for rearing children and economic growth. But, reasonable minds can disagree. A case could be made that allowing certain players to play through several mistakes would help mentally.
Also, arguing that our 2022 title wasn’t legit comes across as a desperate attempt to discredit our program. To be more convincing, you have to acknowledge our success and argue that our short-comings are still enough to cancel it out.
Like I said, very succinct response lol. Rock Chalk.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.
Man…you can keep saying this, it doesn’t make it true. They fouled at about the same rater per minute, but Cliff was a much better defensive rebounder and Jamari turned the ball over twice as much as Cliff.
It’s hard to find defensive rating or defensive efficiency rating statistics from a pretty forgettable season 10 years ago, but I did come across an article from the Daily Kansan that sums up the situation pretty well. This was from a game at Stillwater in mid-February. Here are some excerpts:
Heading to the half against the Cowboys, the Kansas Jayhawks held a 41-30 lead, and it looked as if the team was well on its way to winning a sixth-consecutive game. Frank Mason, Brannen Greene and Cliff Alexander had flat-out dominated the first half, with a combined 27 points on 10-of-11 shooting from the field. Alexander in particular was having a strong game, as he posted eight points and four rebounds in 12 first half minutes.
However, Bill Self opted to put his first half starters back on the court to begin the second half. With that group on the floor, the Jayhawks allowed the Cowboys to go on a 8-1 run, before Self decided to reinsert Alexander and Greene.
Things settled down a bit…but for whatever reason, Self decided it was time to take Alexander out, despite the fact that the freshman big man hadn’t really done anything wrong in the two minutes on the court… Nonetheless, Self made the change, putting Landen Lucas into the game for Alexander. Lucas didn’t do much for the team overall, racking up just one offensive rebound in his seven minutes of playing time in the second half. Lucas did not record any other statistics during that stretch, but Self continued to stick with him.
When Alexander returned to the game about seven minutes later, he appeared to overcompensate for what he likely felt was his one mistake earlier, hedging too high on a pick and roll, as Oklahoma State capitalized for a two-point basket. Again, one mistake was enough for Self, who took Alexander out of the game after just two minutes. Without Alexander being allowed to settle down and get into a rhythm, he never had a chance to get going like he did in the first half. The Jayhawks faltered down the stretch, and that was that; Oklahoma State won by five.
Jamari Traylor, who played 27 minutes in the game (to Alexander’s 16), had another shaky outing, committing six turnovers, which added to a streak that has sort of gone under the radar. In six of his last seven games, Traylor has record more points than missed field goals and turnovers just one time, while Alexander, on the other hand, has done exactly the opposite. In the freshman’s last seven games, he’s had more points than misses and turnovers six times, and in the one game he didn’t, he recorded zero turnovers.
Going back to Saturday’s loss against Oklahoma State, Self called his team’s effort on the glass “soft,” which was somewhat comical, given the fact that Self handcuffed one of his best rebounders to the bench for most of the night. When Alexander played 12 minutes in the first half, the Jayhawks outrebounded the Cowboys 20-9, which included a 7-3 advantage on the offensive glass. Kansas outscored Oklahoma State by 11 in that period. However, in the second half, Alexander played just four minutes, and the Cowboys dominated the boards, outrebounding the Jayhawks 26-15 (9-6 on the offensive glass). The Cowboys outscored the Jayhawks by 16 points over that period, and Traylor really didn’t help the cause at all, recording just one rebound and three turnovers in ten minutes.
It’s the same story 10 years later. It’s incredible that Self allowed Jamari to make mistake after mistake only to pull Cliff at the smallest one. It’s the type of thing that leads to a player’s confidence just cratering. It happened with Cliff, it’s happened to innumerable young KU players–it’s happening again this year! It’s getting to the point where I wouldn’t blame a young player for choosing not to play at KU, even if it makes the most sense.
Even if we were to accept the premise that Jamari was better on defense, which I don’t, it was marginal at best. What little you would gain from him on defense do not offset his deficiencies elsewhere, which were numerous.
As this issue is not new, so too is this debate within the fanbase about Self as a coach not new. I heard someone say recently, if you’re still trying to justify these head-scratching decisions that Bill Self makes after all these years, you’re not a KU fan. You’re a Bill Self fan.
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@MoonwalkMafia That was the one good game Cliff played in all of conference play. That is an example of cherry picking.
Jamari could stay in position better than Cliff. He could switch onto guards (and Cliff could not). Again, NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT JAMARI WAS A GREAT PLAYER.
But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?
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@MoonwalkMafia I became a KU fan the season Bill Self became coach. Being a Self fan and being a KU fan have been synonymous to me this whole time.
I am still a Self fan and a KU fan, but the two are no longer synonymous.
Thanks for the article. Good find.
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@Crimsonorblue22 One of the finest plays in the game.
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https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kansas/men/2015.html
Go look at the advanced numbers. Jamari was the better overall defensive player over Cliff, and Cliff was the better overall option on offense. Jamari had the better defensive +/- and win shares while Cliff was better in each category on offense.
The debate over Morningstar and Elijah is also a ridiculous debate because the advanced numbers show Brady was the superior player by a wide margin that season. The debate that season really be between Elijah and Josh Selby because he’s the guy that played way more minutes than he should have been.
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@Jhawk69 This is another instance of “just because you say it doesn’t make it true.”
Baylor: 12 points, 5 rebounds, 2 blocks. Oklahoma: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 1 block @Texas: 15 points, 9 rebounds, 1 block @Texas Tech: 10 points, 5 rebounds, 4 blocks
This is to say nothing of the game in the article I referenced when Cliff was basically held out of the second half, or other games where similar things happened. There are more examples.
@Texas-Hawk-10 This can be kinda ‘fun with numbers’ so to speak, but I’ll bite.
Am I missing something? Jamari’s defensive rating was 96.9, Cliff’s was 95.0. I see what you’re saying with defensive +/-. Jamari is 4.6 vs. Cliff at 3.3. Which one’s right? I’d say defensive rating is more important since it focuses specifically on points allowed when the player is on the court versus +/- which looks at the score differential when a player is playing, which can change for a variety of reasons. Either way, it’s a pretty marginal difference.
Cliff’s offensive rating was 118.2, while Jamari’s was 94.7. Now that’s a gap. Also win shares. Cliff’s was 2.3, Jamari’s was 1.5. When just considering defense, itJamari 1.3 to Cliff 1.0. Again, this is marginal and whatever deficiencies Cliff had he made up for on the offensive end, Jamari couldn’t. When breaking WS out over the course of 40 minutes, Cliff’s was the highest on the team. Jamari was 10th.
I don’t really care about the Brady Morningstar debate. He was bad. Elijah was young, and Selby never really got going after the game against USC (shrug). All i know is that against VCU, Brady looked like me out there.
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Once again I put to you the question,
But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?
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@drgnslayr The thing that has me screaming or maturely quietly scowling at the TV is my perception that we repeatedly have to dig ourselves out of deficits after the first 5-10 minutes of games. Brick a few shots and we are down by double digits and have one of our 25-30 point halves. Then the warning from the announcers to the viewing audience “you know KU at some point will make a run.” Shorten the game to 30 minutes and be down 28 - 42 at the half. And we make a run.
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The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting.
Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.
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@Jhawk69 I don’t disagree with you. I told you at the beginning, I think Self saw the writing on the wall. Which is why he started Cliff his last 5 or 6 games. Whatever it was. But I just can’t abide this idea that Jamari was the better option. Really, I was just trying to highlight the stubbornness that has held KU back at times.
I noticed nobody took issue with me bringing up how ridiculous Self’s “fools gold” comments. Do people remember that? It was crazy!
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This post is deleted!
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting. Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.
Boom. Well said. I will completely wear that one.
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@MoonwalkMafia Brady was hardly the only KU player with a bad game against VCU. Reed went 1-7 from three. Markeiff Morris had 8 turnovers. KU as a team was 15-28 from the FT line. That loss was a complete team effort, not just Brady.
Elijah to me is the most overhyped player of that era. Elijah was 36% from 3 to Brady’s 53% in conference play. Elijah had 30% turnover rate to Brady’s 13%. That’s the big one. For a position that has the ball in their hands quite a bit, a 30% turnover rate is unacceptable. Elijah had more total turnovers than Brady in conference play despite playing less than half the minutes Brady did. Turnovers were that team’s achilles heel and Brady was the one guy who didn’t turn the ball over very frequently.
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@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Jhawk69 I don’t disagree with you. I told you at the beginning, I think Self saw the writing on the wall. Which is why he started Cliff his last 5 or 6 games. Whatever it was. But I just can’t abide this idea that Jamari was the better option. Really, I was just trying to highlight the stubbornness that has held KU back at times.
I noticed nobody took issue with me bringing up how ridiculous Self’s “fools gold” comments. Do people remember that? It was crazy!
Jamari was a junior and Cliff was a true freshman. As the year went along, Cliff started developing as he was adjusting to the physicality of D1 basketball. I don’t think anyone is genuinely trying to say that Jamari was the higher ceiling player, but for most of the season, Jamari did have a much higher floor than Cliff. As Cliff developed, his floor got higher and that’s why he eventually moved into the starting line up towards the end of the season.
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@MoonwalkMafia Fair enough. But in what way was Self stubborn about Jamari and Cliff?
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Just watched Udeh and TCU take down Baylor at Baylor. Udeh went for 18. Can’t believe we let him slip away.
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I don’t think to many really thought he was worth saving,
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@drgnslayr Yes and 15 boards.
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@drgnslayr said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Just watched Udeh and TCU take down Baylor at Baylor. Udeh went for 18. Can’t believe we let him slip away.
Not even the best big that left KU that season. Zuby averaging 15 and 8 with 2 blocks per game for a 16-3 St. John’s team that might be the best team in the Big East this season.
Zuby > Udeh and I’ve been saying that since their freshmen season here.
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Kind of hard to deterime some one’s worth in their Freshman Year and not being able to get time on the floor much. was that way for Udeh and Zuby both.- - -Now they getting their minutes and seeing the results
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@Texas-Hawk-10 ya as I posted on Zuby earlier would of love to have him this yr. Not that much difference between him and Dickinson - & Zuby averaging 2 blocks per game- - more athletic then Dickinson , quicker, he is doing really well sure could of used him
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@SlimShaddy54 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Kind of hard to deterime some one’s worth in their Freshman Year and not being able to get time on the floor much. was that way for Udeh and Zuby both.- - -Now they getting their minutes and seeing the results
I disagree with this. It’s not hard to see the potential even in limited minutes. At KU, Udeh was useless on both ends once he was more than 5 feet from the basket. He was a slightly better rebounder than Zuby, but Zuby was always more athletic and the better defensive player.
I remember perfectly clear that there were plenty of people arguing with me that Udeh was the better player and he was the one we should’ve fought to keep and I never bought it. Now, it’s bearing out that Zuby is indeed the better overall player over Udeh.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
I don’t think to many really thought he was worth saving,
Bill made his choice. I wish we still had Zuby but it is what it is. Hard to blame either guardian for looking elsewhere once Bill immediately recruited over them with Hunter.
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@BShark coach needs a crystal ball or a magic 8 ball.
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@MoonwalkMafia Andrew White was from Chester Virginia. He was at the YMCA shooting around with his dad a couple times when I lived there. Frank Mason was from Petersburg Virginia, about 8 minutes south of Chester and my boys attended the basketball camp he ran for several years.
It was pretty interesting watching one of these local players enter Self’s circle of trust, and the other finding himself on the outside looking in.
Andrew White was a good kid and could have helped KU. He seemed to be coming on when he got hurt. Once he got injured he got squeezed out of the rotation and never got a real shake thereafter.
It was confusing to me as I am sure it was to him.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Udeh not worthless now, that’s for sure & I’ll stick with my theory, you can stick to yours. – I wouldn’t have a problem witheither
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@approxinfinity Who are you playing White over during his sophomore season? Are you playing him over Andrew Wiggins? Are you playing him over Perry Ellis? Are you playing him over Wayne Selden? Those are the 3 guys White was competing with for minutes.
White wasn’t a bad player, he just wasn’t better than any of those players. And really, Wayne Selden is why White left because he wasn’t going to jump Selden in the rotation. White made the right decision to transfer out because he was never going to reach the NBA ar KU playing behind Selden.
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@SlimShaddy54 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Udeh not worthless now, that’s for sure & I’ll stick with my theory, you can stick to yours. – I wouldn’t have a problem witheither
Where did I say Udeh was worthless? I said he was useless more than 5’ from the basket and there’s plenty of evidence of that. Remember the games where Doke was rendered useless because he couldn’t do anything outside of the paint? That’s Udeh. If Udeh was wearing a KU uniform and played 28 minutes against Houston and didn’t attempt a single FG, didn’t get to the FT line, amd only had 4 rebounds, this site would’ve had a meltdown over stat line (and yes, that was his stat line when TCU played Houston a couple of weeks ago).
Udeh, like Doke, is able to be taken out of games because he has minimal skill more than 5’ from the basket.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp
Neither played that many minutes and didn’t steal time from White. All 3 played spot minutes and none were part of the rotation. Frankamp didn’t play in 8 games and Greene didn’t play in 7 games that season and none of those DNP’s were injury related for Frankamp or Greene.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.
None of them played every game, that’s the point. Frankamp didn’t play 8 games and Greene didn’t play in 7 games. White only played half the season. Andrew White wasn’t going to magically play 20 minutes per game if he stayed healthy and took all of Frankamp and Greene’s minutes. Even if White had stayed healthy, he was never going to get rotation level minutes because there were a combined 15 games that season that Greene and Frankamp never checked into. Again, Andrew White’s competition for minutes that season were Andrew Wiggins, Perry Ellis, and Wayne Selden.
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You don’t have to tough it out, the first sign of adversity just transfer. Don’t grow and overcome, just look for a better situation in the near term.
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A slight bit of perspective. Larry Brown, one of the GOATs, was 0-5 in Ames. Not gonna spend the time to look at Roy Williams in Ames but that place has always been a nightmare for KU even as we had overall better teams than them most years.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn’t need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.
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Good conversation here. Enjoyed reading it.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Well I guess it depends where you or how you were brought up. When I was growing up worthless & useless is ummm pretty dam close to the same thing.
Now tonight Udeh which they was playing Baylor by the way , pretty dm good quality opponent, no Saint Marys sisters of the blind-- Like I said Had 16 points- - - – - 15 rebounds and 3 blocks - wouldn’t really call that even useless. You see there ARE things a player can do without scoring lights out. For some reason so many people seem to think that all that matters is scoring and they don’t take into account all the other aspects of the game… Which if you can’t be happy with a 15 rebound performance & 3 blocks well then I’m sorry you can’t appreciate all faucets of the game, that’s on you. I’d take Udeh in a heart beat-- - -I’d take Zuby in a heart beat it’s a win, win either way as far as I’m concerned. -Again you should be able to have a Udeh type on the team without him having to go out and put big scoring numbers THAT’S what there are four others on the floor that is or are capable of doing that.
Every player on the team has a role to play— your wings score, your point guard s role is to control the offense & runs the offense - -your 3 & 4 have roles to play/ Score, and your five their responsibility is to more then most is to rebound, & rim protect – and if they score more that’s a bonus but not a requirement. Again you have or should have 4 other players on the floor who should be capable of doing that.
It’s ok I’ll still or would take Udeh-- -and I would take Zuby- either one would be great, I don’t have to choose one or the other. - it’s a Win , Win- -You take Zuby— that’s great he is a great choice too, I think it was bad to let both of them get away, – Thing is Udeh did get to the free throw line-- -Udeh did get rebounds, sure it wasn’t Houston , BUT still like I said Baylor isn’t anyone to laugh at either - - -they are a legit program also and Udeh doing this on Baylors home Court against pretty dam good athletes --Have a good night
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn’t need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.
Self used an 8 man rotation that season. 4.5 back court players and 3.5 front court players. Tharpe, Wiggins, Selden, Ellis, Embiid, Mason, Black, and Traylor. Ellis is the 0.5 for each level since he was the 4, but mostly played on the perimeter. Mason, Black, and Traylor were the rotation players off the bench that season.
Embiid, Ellis, Black, and Traylor’s minutes that year were very close to 80 minutes per game so that was the front court rotation with Landen Lucas getting some spot minutes whenever Embiid was injured.
Mason primarily subbed for Tharpe and Selden with those 3 combining for 76 of the 80 minutes at the two back court spots. Wiggins was at 33 mpg that season basically leaving about 7 minutes per game for the wing spot and 4 more back court minutes for a grand total of 11 extra minutes per game of spot duty. Frankamp got the majority of those extra 4 back court minutes since he was a back court player and not a wing. All three of Greene, Frankamp, and White brought the same skill set to the table, outside shooting. But none of those three were very good at that skill that season. Greene shot 33%, White 32%, and Frankamp 31% from 3 so the one skill each was supposed to bring to the table was something none of them were able to actually do that season.
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@SlimShaddy54 Worthless and useless do not have the same meaning so that means somebody failed you in life since you don’t know the difference between those two words. Udoka Azubuike was also useless outside of 5’ from the basket, but that doesn’t he was a worthless player. It simply means his skill set was non existent more than a couple of step away from the basket, same as Udeh.
Your also using Udeh’s career high in points to claim he’s better than Zuby when Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg this season. What category that’s relevant for their positions is Udeh better than Zuby in? Also, St. John’s has also played Baylor this season and Zuby went for 22 and 10 that game
Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 2.0 bpg, 69% FT shooting on 6.3 attempts per game and is at 62% shooting inside the arc and 57% overall while playing 29.7 mpg.
Udeh is averaging 7.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 54% FT shooting on 3.9 attempts per game and is at 61.7% from the field with no outside attempts.
If you’re going to keep arguing the guy averaging 7 and 8 for a mid to low tier P5 schools is better than a guy averaging 15 and 8 for a 1st place P5 team, then you truly need to readjust your evaluation abilities because you might be the only person who would take Udeh over Zuby at this point.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.
We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.
Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.
There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.
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@approxinfinity Andrew White was never the better overall player between himself and Selden. His role at KU was always going to be coming off the bench playing lesser minutes because of who was ahead of him. Transferring was the best decision for White because he wouldn’t have had his cup of coffee in the NBA staying at KU.
None of this means White was a bad player because he wasn’t. It just means that the mid level 4 star recruit got recruited over by a pair of 5 star players who were better overall players than White and there wasn’t a pathway to starters minutes for him at KU until potentially his senior year.
Let’s say White never transfers and sticks at KU for his last two seasons, what’s his path to becoming a starter? Let’s just acknowledge that White was never going to start over Selden and Ellis, so for what would’ve been his junior season, his competition for minutes was Kelly Oubre, Greene, and Svi. I could easily see him playing over Greene and Svi, but I don’t see him staying in front of Oubre all season. That would probably put White in the 20 mpg range his junior season and going down as Oubre kept developing.
Let’s say at that point that White then decides to stay for his senior season at KU which would’ve been the 2015-16 team. There is an open starting spot that season that ultimately went to Devonte Graham so that would be the battle for White because we know he was never starting over Ellis and Selden. Would White have been able to beat out Graham for that starting spot in 2015-16 if he stayed all 4 years at Kansas?
So again, Andrew White was never a bad player, just someone who was here at a time when Self was at his peak in recruiting and White was stuck behind players who were just better overall than he was so he made the correct decision to go elsewhere to give himself the best chance to reach the NBA which he did.
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.
We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.
Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.
There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.
Didn’t Brannen Green basically take the role from White?
Also, the staff wanted to keep White if I recall. But he wanted a larger role that we couldn’t give him.
Last but not least, there is a reason why he fit the Syracuse team. He wasn’t nearly as exposed as a defender in that zone.
And like I’m a huge Andrew White fan. I thought he was going to be a star here, and was very sad to see him go.
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@Kcmatt7 Greene was one of the best shooters I can recall playing for KU. Too bad he was such a hot head. It was heart warming to see he helped save a someone from a car wreck after getting let go, but I was hoping it was him that he saved.
