12 blocks vs C5's 5
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I know I know we won, but it looks like our C5 got outworked by OU - Lattin alone beats C5 crew by 1. C5 needs to work harder. There’s still room for improvement - just sayin’.
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@pa_grape yes. Would probably have helped if Hunter had played more.
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Except a lot of their blocks are more foul like when he hit Mason in the head but Landon got called for over the back.
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@pa_grape pretty much shortened bench late to C2
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@jayhawkeyes There were some bad calls, but Landon did foul that dude, and very stupidly to boot. If the dude makes one FT, we’re all talking about Landon’s dumb foul when OT was nearly guaranteed.
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Lucas and Traylor nearly cost us that game, or more accurately, Self’s insistence on utilizing Lucas and Traylor so much nearly cost us that game.
It’s not that they are bad players. Both can be effective in the right situation, and with the right usage. However, they were both over used last night and over exposed. As I said elsewhere, Traylor had two goaltending plays last night that were not called. I love his energy, but when the officials review that, they will see those missed calls and Traylor will likely be called for goaltending at some point later this season on a close play. He will not get the benefit of the doubt anymore because he had two last night (reaching through the net to tip away one shot, and blocking another after it had already hit the glass) on plays that could have been three point plays.
Lucas is best suited for slower games. Up and down pace is not his forte. He especially does not match up well with OU’s bigs because Lattin is too quick for him and Spangler lingers on the perimeter too much. Had Spangler not picked up his fourth foul, KU probably loses that game because, up to that point, Lattin was playing centerfield, basically standing in the middle of the lane to deter all comers. He wasn’t even guarding Lucas!!! That’s why Lattin ended up with six blocks. He was basically playing goalie until he had to switch to Ellis to keep Spangler in the game. That changed everything because it freed Ellis up from having to deal with the weakside shot blocker.
There was a play that is particularly telling for me. Ellis made a perfect dump off pass to Lucas under the basket. However, because Lucas doesn’t have great hands and isn’t explosive, he had to take a dribble, so instead of scoring an easy bucket (and getting an And one) Lucas goes to the line for two FTs.
I have been curious to see how Self would handle his rotation in a tight game. We found out last night. Look at the lines posted by Selden, Mason, Graham and Ellis, then ask yourself if we can get that level of production from that group to make up for what we aren’t getting from the 5 slot against the best teams in the country. We need either Diallo or Bragg. Why spend all that time and effort to get Diallo cleared if he’s just going to sit and watch in a huge game?
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@justanotherfan Spot on. Most fans cannot see this because they see these two make a positive play here or there and use that as justification. Of course they will make a basket here or there and make a play here or there, after all, they are good enough to have made the team. The part they don’t grasp is that they create huge voids in the offense and defense and make far fewer net positive plays than any of the other three would. The key word here is their NET difference in positive plays made.
Its tough to watch KU’s offense with LL or JT on the court. So many times I’d see LL or JT set one of their “terriffic screens” up top for one of our PGs and the offense stalls because there is no threat if the screener is left alone. There is no pick and roll, no pick and pop, etc. Neither LL or JT can hit that shot at the top of the key so they can be basically ignored. All three of the other bigs can hit it. With LL or JT the play ends up as a pick, pass back to the screener, and handoff back to the guard which is not offense. When the same play is run with Ellis as the screener it is some of our best offense because he can easily hit that shot and can also step back farther and hit the three too. You’ll see Mason and Graham directing traffic late in the game to get Lucas out of the way and Ellis up top so that they can actually run an effective play.
I keep telling myself to give it up and stop venting about this topic but its hard to let it go because it seems so obvious. If the guy makes the foul shot after Lucas’ bonehead foul I think this would be a major topic of discussion today.
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We see the same thing and it gives me a headache. Lucas is especially problematic, because he doesn’t roll fast enough to create panic (think young Dwight Howard, or Tyson Chandler). Those guys weren’t shooters, either, but they were so quick that when they rolled to the bucket, you had to go with them or get dunked on. Lucas doesn’t present that threat, so he is ignored.
This game is why we needed to have Cheick and Carlton developing in December rather than spreading the minutes evenly. Last night, we likely could have won in regulation if we had been able to get more production inside other than Ellis.
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@justanotherfan Agreed about LL. I’ll add to the fact that I think this team plays its best when they are playing fast and running, pushing tempo, etc. LL being in the game makes this less effective too because he moves so slow and can’t get down the court for fast breaks or even put backs off of a fast break miss which Bragg and Diallo are terriffic at.
Also conversely, he struggles getting back down the court on defense after a turnover or miss to stop the opposing team on a fast break. Its frustrating but I don’t think there is anything we can do about it. Woosah.
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Lucas and Traylor were part of this team win. They made mistakes, but who didn’t?Glad they played and I wouldn’t change a thing. Great team win.
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@justanotherfan I think our stale looking offense tends manifest when Landen is in. Maybe not as much with Traylor, but I do think there is a correlation.
Better basketball minds may differ.
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Ranked number 1.
Second highest scoring offense in the country.
109 points against the other #1 ranked team.
You’re right about our stale looking offense.
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@wrwlumpy ha ha!! Good one! Getting better! Keep going, please!
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Anyone know why Hunter didn’t play the 2nd half and OTs (or very little)?
He did do some good things in the first half.
I kind of think Self just wanted all his post guys to get some experience in this game, especially the veteran guys.
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@drgnslayr he did do some good things, guessing something was not as good as self was wanting. Don’t think it had anything to do w/getting them experience.
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@RockkChalkk How is it that KU scored 109 points total and 77 points in regulation with this big, lumbering boat anchor at center for much of the second half? This was done against a team that ranks in the top 20 in virtually every defensive team statistic. Why were the announcers (who have seen more than a few games between them) praising LL’s rebounding and getting up and down the court?
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@drgnslayr Because Lattin and Spangler made Hunter their B on the glass. That OU run was sparked because KU couldn’t grab a rebound to save their lives. Traylor gave the spark in the second half and Lucas shut down their second half dominance on the glass. How many second chances did OU get during that 15 minute run at the end of the first half and start of the second half that kept KU from getting any rhythm? Landen Lucas slowed down their running game significantly in the second half.
For thise whining about the OTB call that put Lattin on the line, Lucas may have committed that OTB that gave OU a shot to win in regulation (ignoring the missed call right before that should’ve put Mason on the line for the win), but KU isn’t even in a position to force OT without Lucas and his rebounding last night.
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@sfbahawk You’re talking about the same announcers who could barely get anything right the whole game? The ones that were lost more times than I can count? Are those the ones you’re talking about?
So if I understand you correctly, you don’t think our team can put up 37 points in a half against OU without LL being a big piece of it? Is 37 points in a half supposed to be a huge stat in your arguement? Every time I saw LL come into the game our lead dropped. It happened in the first half, he missed two terrible shots and Self yanked him immediately. Self kept him in for more time in the 2nd half but what did he have, 2 points? And if I remember correctly they were free throws after he couldn’t finish a dunk on a pass from Ellis when he got double teamed. 6’-10" and can’t finish through soft contact while directly in front of the basket. I just don’t think that its a good argument to say that since we have 4 good players that had a nice game against a tough team that it means our 5th was the reason why. I have nothing against the kid, seems like a good teammate but he just isn’t the best player we could have in there. Far from it. I’m glad we won but I think it could have easily been a 6-7 point win in regulation rather than a nail biting win after three OTs.
I’m going to drop this topic now because I can tell its sensitive for a lot of people here and I apologize for that. Lets get back to celebrating a big win.
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@RockkChalkk Lucas is not a good offensive player and you and @sfbahawk are focusing on the wrong area of LL’s contributions last night. LL’s biggest offensive contributions were on the offensive glass tipping balls back out to the guards and giving KU second chances. LL’s rebounding is what kept KU in the game and I will flat say KU does not win without Landen Lucas last night. Had Lattin made that FT, you would hear a lot of complaints about the non call on Mason, but also that KU would not have even been in that position without LL’s rebounding efforts.
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@RockkChalkk who goes in the game and does a better job of rebounding?
Doesn’t drop easy passes?
Plays solid D?
You bring up the missed dunk on a soft foul. That happens to a lot of guys.
Why aren’t you burying Frank Mason? His shooting wasn’t that great. Mason made big FTs in OT. HMMM. So did Lucas.
Why aren’t you bagging on Selden? His fouls and T sat him on the bench to long. But he made a dunk in traffic.
Why not tear Elliis’s game apart?? How many times did he miss on the block through contact? But he hit that three late.
Devonte. What a to machine in the first half. Why did he play in the second?
Make fun of those all you want. But that’s what you sound like when it comes to Lucas.
There were runs both by KU and OU no matter who we had in the game.
Sometimes OU play to your strengths and use what’s working. That’s what Self and Co did last night.
If Bragg and Diallo play I. The second half what Lucas does how bad does KU lose by due to their bad turnovers, shot selections and bad fouls that don’t need to be made??
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@JRyman good points. Bragg and Diallo need to stay for their sophomore years. They make too many mistakes to be left on the floor in a tight game.
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@RockkChalkk said:
I’m going to drop this topic now
I’m sure the topic will come up again many times between now and Saturday!
Lucas made the last 5 of KU’s 8 points in the second OT. That actually happened. What could’ve/should’ve happened with Bragg or Diallo in there instead is just an unprovable fantasy.
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I don’t have any criticism about anything related to last night. I think beating the other number #1 team in triple overtime trumps all else for me. Of course, I’m completely running on fumes today due to the length of the game…but…WE WON !! Let’s take a day and wave the KU banner, and enjoy it!
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@KUSTEVE said:
WE WON !! Let’s take a day and wave the KU banner, and enjoy it!
Amen Jayhawk Brother
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@KUSTEVE Rock Chalk!
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Legit questions. I am not talking about the other guys because every player will have their bad moments here and there and I try to avoid bagging someone for that. However, they have a large enough sample size to show that it is not the norm and over enough minutes they will end up being the best option for the team’s success. In my opinion, that same thing cannot be said for LL. It is the norm for him. Thats the difference.
I’m not saying he is useless. For instance, he would be a decent limited rotation play if we have a big lead and want to slow things down and try to limit the other team’s second chance shots. But the way i see it, for Offensive purposes our other bigs are far better. For playing fast, our other bigs are far better. For blocking shots our other bigs are better. I think all of our bigs struggle with face up D and can cite several examples of poor D by LL last night if you want but I don’t see any of the others being much better. For rebounding, despite his size advantage he is not significantly better than the others and the numbers back that up.
Rock Chalk
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I’m definitely not complaining about the play of Jamari and Landen…
But wasn’t Hunter in the game when we ran up the big first half lead, too?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I am the last person to mistake LL for a great offensive whiz. My response was to the claim that the offense slows down that much when he is in the game. I think that 37 points is not bad against a team that is very highly ranked defensively. I know that this conversation will continue for the rest of this year and also for next since he is a junior.
You are correct that he was in the game to rebound and muscle with OU’s big man and for that he did a good job.
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There’s always room to get better, its true.
But I’ll take 17/17 most any night and give the C5 guys a pat on the butt!!!
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@wrwlumpy We hit shots, but seemed forced at time. I mean, our hold to the end of the period offense is ugly and frankly, usually ineffective lately.
109 points, yeah, but an extra 15 minutes of playing time to get there. I think Jesse Newell commented that this was one of our worst PPP games. That’s what I mean by stale.
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@sfbahawk Really, going to rely on what THOSE announcers had to say?
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@RockkChalkk AMEN
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@Bwag I am not the biggest fan of Dickie V but he has seen more basketball in his life than you would ever dream. I am sure that he knows more about basketball than you ever will. How much has ESPN offered you for your trenchant commentary? I thought so.
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@sfbahawk The guy has one good eye still…not saying isn’t knowledgeable but his head has been so far up Coach K’s and Duke/Carolina’s asses for the last 10 years, not sure what he sees at all anymore.
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@sfbahawk I’d be willing to try him out!
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@sfbahawk And not only NOT ESPN, but no one else either!
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@wrwlumpy - Where’s the rebounding #? I thought we’re talking about room to improve for C5…
BTW, that statistics will worth nothing once other teams figure out how to clip our guards.
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Quick question…which one helps your teams the most…dunk the ball and get two points or draw the foul and get the same two point from the line…these are the two option, no 3 point play. option.
And the answer is…
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@JayHawkFanToo No dunk the ball, get fouled, and get the extra point from the line…option?
The foul and two from the line is the better if truly only those options (but that’s not reality) but this is dependent on shooting 2/2 from line.
Otherwise, realy world, get the sure 2 points with the dunk through contact and the option on the extra.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m not sure how your condescending question has any relevance to the topic at hand. The play in question could have been a three point play, it was an option. Also, he missed one of the free throws too and being a 61% free throw shooter that is what will happen most of the time in that scenario.
In full disclosure, the missed free throw ended up being rebounded by KU and ultimately a basket via tip in by LL himself. The sequence ended up working out great for KU but statistically we will come out ahead the most by making that initial basket, foul or not.
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@RockkChalkk Lucas’s scoring (5 of 8 points) in the second overtime got us to the third. Everyone else was playing on dead legs for both teams.
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@DanR and what might have happened if we had a second pair of fresh legs in there too? Maybe no need for a 3rd OT.
Of course we won’t know and never will in these what if scenario’s!
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@Bwag I’m comfortable arguing from the position of things that actually happened.
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@DanR Opportunity costs are much harder to 1) see and 2) quantify (because you can’t see them).
Belive in economics it’s when you have distorted incentives on spending/investment, you can measure what occurred, but you can’t as easily see nor measure what would have happened without the distortion.
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@Bwag thanks for the econ advice. I’ve run my own business for 18 years. I’ve chased down many a foolish opportunity at first then built solid relationships with people and companies that are all invested in results, not potential.
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@DanR Wasn’t giving business advice…was thinking more in terms of distorted markets based on regulatory or tax incentives…
But your comment leads back to the results argument on the site…League or NC? I don’t get as hung up on that personally. Though like everyone would like to see both.
Home versus Neutral site, Opponents with outstanding individual performance, results:
Home - OU - win by 3 in 3 OT’s
Neutral - MSU - loss
Away - Game TBD - ???
Note: Tournament games in neutral sites.
What will our results be then? And why?
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Pray tell why is my question condescending? I simply presented a situation not that dissimilar to what actually happened during the game…and more importantly, didn’t he draw that fouls on Hield? it was his third foul and less than a minute later drew the fourth fourth on Woodward…just sayin’…sometimes drawing the foul and going to the line can be considerably more important.
