Post-game Roundup: KU vs Colorado
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If KU’s gotta lose on ten last second shots to make up for Mario’s Miracle, so be it. It’s all reciprocal.
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I am tired of KU being in. Position where games come down to the wire against unranked teams. We should not be in that position so often.
Second-besides hating losing, I hate teams who left the conference. Self does Ex-jayhawk Tad Boyle a Favor by scheduling games. and Jayhawks bought tickets which also helped the Buffs program with a full venue and excitement. Too much help Tad decided and shut out Jayhawk purchases this year with “multi -game packages” we need to return the favor-by removing the favor. Don’t play them again-take them off the schedule.
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More beating the dead horse:
A stat to digest - KU is shooting 29.8% from 3 point range. The only Big 12 team that is worse than KU from 3 point range? K-State, at 26.4%.
Against Villanova, we were 2-11 from three point range – 18.2%.
Against Colorado, we were 5-20 from three point range – 25%.
I understand a lot goes into winning and losing. Nothing is the sole cause. That’s undeniable. Maybe it’s a pie-graph. This is a big slice and the most significant reason for our two losses. If we shoot the ball a bit better from 3 point range in both games, say 33%, chances are very high we’re sitting at 8-0 right now.
@konkeyDong - First, buddy, you need to post more. And kD chooses AW3. SOLD! You laid out his case perfectly. With Greene, I would say that he has an intensity edge to him that this team lacks a bit. He seems emotional. We lack that a bit. Self said we lack vocal players – he seems vocal. He is the best pure shooter, as you note. I would also suggest that he can get to the rack a bit, and I agree with you that Greene has an edge defensively. But I’m happy to defer to your choice – now go convince coach Self!
@nuleafjhawk - Very funny about CF. I recall back to the summer scrimmage when he was the man. I needed that chuckle this morning. He needs to work in the weight room, let his body mature, red shirt next season, and then, in his redshirt sophomore season, we’ll have a player.
@ParisHawk - Interesting comment on Selden. I guess you noticed Tharpe playing 28 minutes, and Selden 20? And Self seeming to prefer Tharpe over Selden with Mason? My guess is that won’t be an issue in February.
@KansasComet - You aren’t concerned in the least bit about 3 point shooting? Come on, not even a little bit? I do agree with you that free throw shooting is a concern, certainly with our checkered history in that regard. But how you can simply dismiss 3 point shooting makes me feel like the Aflac duck. Check out that the 3 point percentage below 30%. Not at all … not the “least bit” concerned?
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HEM, not concerned because these guys can shoot. It will work itself out. This is one of the few KU teams that did not get a chance to feast on Allen Field House Cupcakes. They will be okay. Much more worried about knocking down free throws. The bigger problem in my opinion are free throws, because as we all know, they are uncontested. I do understand where you are coming from. Remember, Mario’s Miracle does not happen without great free throw shooting that night, it is also what did in Memphis. On the flip side, terrible free throw shooting cost us the 2003 Title, we withstood McNamara’s 1st half 3 point barrage. I still believe in these guy’s and their 3 point ability.
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Just some thoughts…have not had a chance to watch the game in its entirety.
We have been seriously spoiled as a fan base to a point of idiocracy. Really? No team should be in a game with Kansas that comes down to the last possession? News Flash: Jay Wright & Tad Boyle are pretty fine coaches as well.
The fact that 80% of the roster are freshman isn’t a valid reason for the struggles? Wow. “Youth excuse is wearing thin” is a comment that I keep seeing posted. Anybody who thinks experience does not play into performance is just not being realistic.
I was happy to see Mason continue to jack up Bricks from 20ft.
Was the top of the key not open when they ran the zone? I would think Perry would be lethal from there, but again, no chance to watch game yet…just making this comment based on what I have read so far.
Finally, just as Marcus Smart’s decision to return to college after being a sure fire OAD could pay dividends by influencing more high-level talent to stay an extra year or two, this loss is going to pay dividends for this team down the road this year. And potentially, the program even further down the road. Boyle is officially on my “Billy Self Replacement Watch”
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Jayhawks, at this point, are exactly who I thought they would be. Actually, we all thought that before the season began. We all said that they are young and have a brutal schedule and will lose a handful of games.
Guess what, that’s exactly how it’s playing out. They lost a very close game to a team that had this game circled since last year. They will get better, just like they do every year. Sure the concerns about 3% and FT are valid, but I think they are a side effect of the team not playing together to plan yet.
I saw a lot of improvement in this game compared to Bahamas.By the way, if they lose again at Florida, I’m still not hitting the panic button—not until January at least.
Enjoy the ride.
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Are the new rules killing Coach Self’s play style?
His system starts, flows and ends with hard nosed defense; offense is a result of the defensive effort. The new rules have sissified the game so much that if player get the ball within 10 feet of the basket it is almost easier to either score of get fouled than to miss altogether. Same thing with penetration; the NCA wanted more scoring and now an average guard can penetrate with impunity and look like the second coming of Iverson since he will either be given an open path to the basket or a foul. This negates the tough defense that worked so successfully before.
Also, the referring has been wildly inconsistent between conferences. I watch a lot of college basketball and I can see that some games are called a lot closer than others. I also understand that KU plays a more pressing defense, but the disparity in fouls against Colorado is not an indicator of how the game went down. KU was called for 10 more fouls and CU shot 17 more free throws.
The 3-point shooting is becoming an issue. One of the 3 in limbo, Frankamp, White and Green will have to start playing more time. Frankamp is playing good defense but his shooting is way too tentative; he is passing open shots and taking the one s he should not; if I were Coach Self, I would borrow a few players from the football team and have him practice shooting with these physical athletes surrounding him until he is comfortable taking shots while being guarded. Green has a sweet stroke but also a quick trigger and his defense is lagging; I imagine this are the reason he is in the dog house. This leaves White who has been inconsistent, sometimes playing well and some others not so much. Shooter have what they call “being in the zone” where they feel they can make every shot they take; also, they need to get into the “rhythm” of the game before they can “in the zone.” Unfortunately, playing a few minutes at the time is not conductive to achieve either. Hopefully in the near future, one will start separating himself from the others and the 3-point shooting woes will be greatly abated.
Once again, the teams shows great potential but it also shows its immaturity. Hopefully by conference time Coach Self will iron out the issues and KU will be back to normal.
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On the 3 pt shooting and the CF/White/Greene issue…Self has said that no one has separated themselves. The obvious question is, as HEM and many others have pointed out, is why not let them try to do that by letting them play extended minutes, one at a time or something. What we don’t know is if he expects that to happen in practice. One can surmise that the first one of those 3 off the bench (Greene yesterday) has had the best week of practice. It has to work its way out, because I don’t see Self continuing the 3 minutes each plan. One thing…White looks extremely bored every time I see him on the bench. The body language doesn’t look great.It concerns me som, but I guess that is to be expected. I attend smaller school Div. 1 games in my area so I can get good seats and guys are clearly not happy about coming out of the game or being on the bench. Part of being a competitor.
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I just don’t believe our problems will be solved by picking one shooter for added minutes. I think our problems are more severe and requires a lot more adjustment. The group of White, Greene and Frankamp shot 0 - 5 yesterday. How many shots would these guys need to take before they started dropping? Granted… sometimes players need a few to get going, but I’m not going to turn away from the real problems this team has by pointing only at 3s for salvation. We didn’t need a single 3 to win this game. We’ve had many past games where we shot horribly from 3 and still blew out teams. Kansas has never counted on the 3 ball. We’ve counted on defense, rebounding, winning 50/50 balls, and points inside. That’s who we are. And it is a formula that works well enough to put Self up there as the coach with the most wins in the past 10 years. The day where we count on the 3 for success is the day where we will not win at the consistency we’ve won at for the past 10 years.
We are being beat by teams of far inferior talent… but… far superior experience!
We are being beat by teams that know how to run an offense and defense. They understand that the key to both sides of the ball is spacing… something we haven’t figured out yet.
It won’t help to give any of our shooters more minutes until we can run an offense that creates good shooting space for them, and they get hit with chest-high passes and can flow through their shots. What’s Conner’s shooting % from trey this year? 20-something? He won’t shoot better just because he gets more shots. He’s been forcing his stuff. Same with Greene and White. These guys were decent in the first few games, when opponents hadn’t practiced enough defense to limit our shooting space.
It’s pretty basic physics. Players can’t be in more than one spot at a time. If we spread out our offense and we move the ball, that is only the beginning of doing something right. Then we have to attack. We need players like Mason, Selden and Wiggins either penetrating, or at least getting into the high post and making 12-ft jumpers on a regular basis. Or finishing at the rim will work, too. We’ve got to do more than throw the ball around side-to-side. That’s what we did yesterday, and it reminded me of some bad games from past years, where our offense passed what seemed like millions of passes around the horn, until the shot clock was down to nothing, then hurried a bad shot. If I could condense the description of our offense yesterday, that would be it. Heck… several times we ran out the shot clock.
We have one enormous problem on offense; we aren’t attacking. Even Mason pulled back yesterday and rarely attacked the rim. I’m not sure if that was because he was sick, or if CS just told them all to work on 3s.
We have to work within the law of physics; no defender can be in two places at the same time. So we have to stretch out the defense and attack. If the perimeter defense is guarding out high, we have to feed the post, or penetrate from the perimeter, or send someone into the high post to attack in mid range. We weren’t doing anything like that yesterday. We were largely sitting on the 3line and passing back and forth, with nothing changing each time, until the clock ran down.
How about some effective screens? How about running high ball screens? Can any of these guys shoot off the dribble?
It’s still a case of a young team not knowing what to do. I’m doubtful they will be rewarded with real offense until they start playing better defense. Self isn’t showing them much on offense yet because he wants them to focus on defense. It is improving… little by little. We got burned in the zone by perimeter 3s along the baseline. With time we’ll learn better defense and understand how spacing works. With all the speed this team has, it’s ridiculous to think they can’t learn to play good defense. They can…
Last week I mentioned how I saw the phases of this team, in a time line. We are in the COLD COLD COLD period. So absorbing losses is part of it. Don’t be surprised if we get smoked on Tuesday.
I can easily see this team losing 6 or more games this year. It may be the best thing for them. If thats what it takes to turn boys into men, so be it. It certainly worked for one Danny Manning! That’s what it took for him to get to the point where he absolutely hated to lose and refused to lose again. Go back and check out their march to a National Championship. Go back and read how Danny even challenged Larry Brown in that NC game. He wasn’t going to lose and he took it to Oklahoma.
Yesterday… why did it take Tharpe 39 minutes of basketball before he figured out he had to go in attack mode?
It will take leadership to dig this team out of their holes. Tharpe and Ellis are the closest we have to being experienced. Ellis is all but disappeared. Self should start substituting Lucas in for Ellis. Where did his “attack mode” go? We need Perry to be the guy that keeps our lows from dipping too low. I don’t know what it takes to get Tharpe to attack… Imagine if he had attacked in the 39 minutes before the end of the game?
There is too much thinking on this team… too much play where players don’t want to screw up, so they try to be invisible. I suspect they are being over-coached a bit right now. Maybe it is for the best.
I look at these losses like taking a dose of Cod Liver Oil. Hopefully, it will make us stronger down the road. But Jayhawk fans aren’t used to too many losses… but we also aren’t used to having such a young team. We can’t blame this on OADs and the philosophy of recruiting OADs. The problem was we lost our entire starting 5 from last year. This goes up and beyond what is considered a “rebuilding year.”
It’s frustrating to watch… but we’ll just have to bite the bullet and suffer through some horrible games and situations.
Just maintain hope that we’ll be a different team in March. It worked in '88!
Just be ready for the media smearing. If we lose on Tuesday it is really going to be bad.
Here is a piece of advice that I’m going to try to work out for myself, too… Use some kind of radio delay software or hardware so you can sync your radio broadcast of Hawk games with the television. I’ve heard of this done before… and if anyone has a working setup, please share it with all of us. I’m on a mac platform. But we are all going to want this moving forward, especially on national broadcast games… because otherwise, the games will be unwatchable because of all the sickening commentary.
I can’t handle the next van Gundy spewing gibberish after spending only 10 minutes getting educated on Jayhawk basketball.
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Drgn, No question that we need to attack the basket. We did a much better job in the 2nd half and down the stretch. Mason didn’t do it all in the first half…much better in the 2nd. I don’t think our 3 pt shooters have taken bad shots. I think that they are thinking too much. Part of that is they might feel like one mistake and they’re gone…probably because that is true.I hope you are not serious with the Lucas for Ellis substitution. I noted that Perry did sit a fair amount through the middle of the game. Traylor, I think was playing most of that time. Didn’t make sense to me. Maybe it was because he wasn’t doing what Self wanted.
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Sure I’m serious with Lucas taking minutes from Ellis. It should just be temporary… Ellis should fight to get his minutes back. He’s been a horrible slacker for several games now. When he attacks the rim, he scores points. He’s either been making weak positioning moves in the post so the ball doesn’t go in, or he’s getting the ball and throwing it back out.
Perry has to be pushed. He had to be pushed last year… and he’s showing signs of needing a push again. No one here is saying Lucas is a better option in the post.
And Traylor needs to play smarter. He had several really bad periods yesterday, where he wasn’t playing with good basketball IQ. Traylor has good potential… but he plays a lot like TT played early in his career… showing athleticism and signs of hope, then lots of bad play. There is hope for Traylor… he just needs to play smarter ball.
@Hawk8086 - You may be right with our guys shooting 3s while being fearful that they may get pulled. But yesterday, it seemed like our guys were more fearful of driving and getting pulled.
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@drgnslayr. It is a catch 22 situation. Ellis plays a position where he depend on other players to get him the ball in the right position to make his move to the basket; if the ball is not precisely deliver to the right position the option is to step out and take the longer jumper, something that he does not favor. With Mason playing more time, Coach Self is trying to get more penetration, but on the other hand, Tharpe, the better passer is not there as much to deliver the ball to Ellis. Perry’s line was 5-6 from the field for 10 points, 8 rebounds and 3 assists; why in the world would you trade these numbers for more playing time for Lucas?
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I’d rather see Lucas w/more minutes in the 5 spot, w/Ellis. Lucas seems to be so fundamentally sound. Watching CF w/ball he seems to be thinking w/every catch, " is this in the flow?"
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@JayHawkFanToo - I agree with you. Ellis needs help in the post. They need to feed him at the right time and in the right position… sort of similar to how perimeter shooters need to receive the ball if they are going to hit a constant 3.
But natural scorers can make things happen in a non-perfect environment. Randle is an example. Perry will never become a Julius Randle, but he can actually be better… he needs only about 1/2 of Randle’s aggressiveness to be effective. Perry has more scoring weapons than Randle. I’ve been amazed at how many different scoring moves Perry has.
Just like on the perimeter… if Andrew is a natural scorer he’ll make opportunities for himself, even if his teammates don’t help create one for him.
With all that going for him, Perry is still not using the 1/2 “Randle aggressiveness” necessary to create his own scoring.
I’m a big Perry fan… have been since he was 12 years old! And I know when he’s pushing it and when he isn’t.
@Crimsonorblue22 - I wouldn’t mind seeing Lucas get some minutes at the 5… I just don’t want it to take any minutes away from Embiid. That guy needs as many minutes as he can get between now and March. You are right… Lucas plays good fundamentals. If he keeps working on his strength and aggressiveness he’ll have a bright future as a Jayhawk!
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I read that use of zone defenses is up this season, no doubt because of the new “rules”. We are not a good zone-beating team right now because we can’t hit the outside shot.
Conclusion: the new “rules” are hurting us both on defense and on offense.
Is it heresy to suggest that shooters “warm up” by shooting some 2-pointers that have a better chance of going in (assuming they can get an open 2-point shot)?
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@ParisHawk Not heresy; makes sense. I’ll reiterate though that its not just our outside shooting why we can’t bust the zone. Our ball reversal sucks. Also, I don’t think I’ve seen a skip pass in weeks. And I can only remember one designed play ending in a converted entry pass against CU (the and one to Embiid).
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1 good win this year so far. (Duke) 2 games lost on buzzer beater threes. 3 freshmen who need to stick around before their pro careers, Joel, Selden and Wiggins. 4 tough games til conference play begins, Florida, GTown, NM, and SDState. 5 fouls gonna be a lot of that for certain players
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I was going to go all the way to 12 as in the 12 days of Jayhawk Christmas, but the creative juices just aren’t flowing. Maybe ya’ll can help!
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We are or were ranked 6th
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Ben picked 7th
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On the 12th day of Christmas, my KU gave to me: 12 rotation players, … 9 Conference Championships, 8-ending years with NCAA titles …
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…and a ruffed grouse in a pear tree!
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Would that be 11 diamond rings?
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@drgnslayr - You said; “It won’t help to give any of our shooters more minutes until we can run an offense that creates good shooting space for them, and they get hit with chest-high passes and can flow through their shots. What’s Conner’s shooting % from trey this year? 20-something? He won’t shoot better just because he gets more shots. He’s been forcing his stuff. Same with Greene and White. These guys were decent in the first few games, when opponents hadn’t practiced enough defense to limit our shooting space.”
Help me understand your thinking there. We have been getting good looks. We’ve been getting the normal looks you’d get in a normal game. I haven’t seen any of the three forcing threes. Perhaps I’m missing something, but of the 5 three point shots by Greene/CF/AW3, only one looked questionable (one of CF’s).
@approxinfinity - In my humble opinion, top three ways to beat a zone defense, in order – meaning what is the most effective way: 1. Immediate entry pass. 2. 3 point shooting. 3. Penetrating and attacking the seams. 4. Ball reversal or skip passes.
Obviously, the first option rarely presents itself. I think items 3 and 4 are the most reliable ways to beat the zone, meaning you pound away. Three point shooting can ebb and flow. Ours is ebbing. But when it’s flowing, or partially flowing, it’s hard to beat. It gets folks out of zones quickly.
Interestingly, Tad Boyle said after the game that if we would have hit some outside shots early, he would have abandoned the zone. And that kind of goes to my point … we bust the zone with a few threes, our zone problems disappear.
There is no definitive answer here. But I do think it’s wise to not focus solely on three point shooting as some have noted. The three point shooting, from a purely objective statistical standpoint, has been lacking. It’s easy to point our fingers at because we can see the numbers.
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@ParisHawk - The new rules interpretations are hurting us. It seemed in Self’s comments last week he was struggling with the changes. He referenced on Hawk Talk that it takes away aggressiveness, and that’s how we normally play. We had 26 fouls yesterday, CU had 16. That is a huge discrepancy. Seemed like we missed out on a few non-calls, like Wiggins getting fouled when he scored and maybe Ellis on our last bucket, but nothing astounding really. Heck, he said before the game in his press conference that “We ain’t going zone.” And that he would not play zone before conference play because it would send the wrong message and bail the guys out. He then played zone (which was a good decision at the time, I thought – I Iove a good zone defense and personally think it should be practiced and used regularly). But new rules or not, we keep getting called for fouls.
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@HighEliteMajor - I agree with you on that last game. The shots were there… but previous games they weren’t as open. Any guys can go 0 for 5 with open shots…
We’ll continue to get better looks, and I’m not worried about our 3s dropping. Those will come around. 2 of the 3 are freshmen and the other a sophomore with limited minutes last year. They’ll warm up eventually… as long as the spacing is there.
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“That’s what I’m best at,” Wiggins said. “Being aggressive, driving to the basket and being fouled. Slashing to the basket, that’s what I’m best at.”
“The way the officials are calling the game,” Self said, “you’ve got to get to the free-throw line and the best way to do that is to drive the ball. He played well in the second half.”
I think a light bulb might have turned on in Wiggins’ head. And I hope that bulb would stay on from now on.
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@HighEliteMajor. Traditionally, the way to beat the zone is to kill it with outside shooting, something I though we would be good at. However, another way is to speed up the game and fast break to the other end before the defense has had chance to setup the zone, and if the lanes close, then kick it outside for the three or back inside via backdoor. Offensive rebounding is critical. Coach Self has the horses to play a fast game but our young grasshoppers have much to learn.
