What's our fate?
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Taken from the Phog… This poster’s father is connected to the Athletic Department. He’s usually been solid on his info. Here’s what he had to say…
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So, my father isn’t as in tune with this as much as other aspects of the Athletic Department; but some general things: Self and the KUAD are now pushing for this to be over. This whole time, they were content to delay this until the end of time; but the tune has changed and Self is ready to ‘take some medicine’ to move past this. That may mean abdicating to some demands.
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So, from what I understand, Self was willing to fight any violation and any punishment to the ends of the Earth. Now he’s willing to take a small hit so he can move forward. The extent of those violations and punishments is not entirely clear right now (because no deal has been made); but apparently Bill and KT are willing to take suspensions in the non-con. Apparently there may have been something to Vernon’s hearings that the NCAA wanted a post season ban (possibly for multiple years) for the coaches; but that is a no-go for Self. We are apparently willing to meet them on fines, and a small scholarship reduction. Apparently vacating wins or a F4 is out of the question. If they can make a deal on a palatable agreement, then this thing will be done soon. If the IARP doesn’t play ball, then it’s back to fighting them every inch again.
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
Taken from the Phog… This poster’s father is connected to the Athletic Department. He’s usually been solid on his info. Here’s what he had to say…
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So, my father isn’t as in tune with this as much as other aspects of the Athletic Department; but some general things: Self and the KUAD are now pushing for this to be over. This whole time, they were content to delay this until the end of time; but the tune has changed and Self is ready to ‘take some medicine’ to move past this. That may mean abdicating to some demands.
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So, from what I understand, Self was willing to fight any violation and any punishment to the ends of the Earth. Now he’s willing to take a small hit so he can move forward. The extent of those violations and punishments is not entirely clear right now (because no deal has been made); but apparently Bill and KT are willing to take suspensions in the non-con. Apparently there may have been something to Vernon’s hearings that the NCAA wanted a post season ban (possibly for multiple years) for the coaches; but that is a no-go for Self. We are apparently willing to meet them on fines, and a small scholarship reduction. Apparently vacating wins or a F4 is out of the question. If they can make a deal on a palatable agreement, then this thing will be done soon. If the IARP doesn’t play ball, then it’s back to fighting them every inch again.
The more I research it, the better I feel about it. This is going to be a small hit- not the biggie I envisioned.
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We shall see. Any outcome is possible with the NCAA
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
We shall see. Any outcome is possible with the NCAA
This is why I feel better about it. This is from an attorney on Jayhawk Slant:
This is an administrative process, not even a civil or criminal one, and the bar for “guilt” is “more likely than not”. So that is bothersome.
That said, I have some experience with administrative hearings and judgments, and read through every page of KU’s law firm response to the allegations (I didn’t read through HCBS’s response, assuming it was essentially identical). IMHO, the law firm eviscerated the NCAA allegations, including to reference in-house conversations immediately after the wiretapped conversations and texts, and those in-house and contemporaneous conversations support KU’s position that no wrong-doing occurred by HCBS, et al. In other words, when those happened, no one had any reason to believe they needed to “cover” themselves.
To take one “episode”, DeSousa’s guardian attested to not knowing the $2,500 was even coming and when he contacted the Adidas sleazeball about it, he basically said he was sure the guardian knew what to do, or words to that effect. The guardian said he kept, I believe, $500 or so and gave the rest to charity.
IMHO Self’s, and the U’s, adamant public denials of violations combined with KU’s response, make it highly unlikely that the NCAA will issue any significant punishment. Any finding of fault would seem at great risk to be overturned based on being arbitrary and not supported by facts in evidence. [Emphasis mine - HE] (In one admin case I participated in, the guilt finding was thrown out because it relied on what might have happened vs what could be conclusively shown.) I would expect both KU and HCBS to sue including to demand an immediate injunction. I don’t think the NCAA wants another NIL-like embarrassment, but also KU wants this to go away. So I’d bet that behind the scenes there’s a negotiation going on whereby KU and HCBS et al admit no guilt but agree to HCBS being held out of practice for some time period or maybe not coaching some number of games at season start, or something similar. Self may be reluctant to agree even to something like that, he certainly presents himself that way, but he also could recognize that a wrist slap in face of allegation of five, Level 1 infractions, would be a clearcut victory.
Finally, given that all this has been brought about by illicit behavior of Adidas employees, it wouldn’t be surprising if there’s some “hold harmless” language floating around whereby much of KU’s legal expenses are paid by Adidas.
General process is can’t pursue relief in court until letting the administrative process run its course. So no court is likely to accept it until all recourse within NCAA has occurred. But there’ve been instances wherein NCAA final decision was reversed or blocked in court filing. Relief can be granted if the member had no choice/was coerced, the process violated the org’s own policies (very often the case), or the policies were in themselves illegal or unenforceable.
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in What's our fate?:
Here’s a nice, simply stated story on what KU faces.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/06/1091334394/university-kansas-ncaa-violations
That story is misleading. It summarizes the FBI case by lumping KU into the allegations where school employees were directly involved in the Adidas payments. The FBI investigation concluded that KU did not know of them and, in fact, was the victim of the scheme.
The article also fails to address the unique theory that attempts to make KU liable for the Adidas scheme, i.e., that Adidas was a booster solely because we relied on Adidas help in recruiting, and we had a duty to detect and report Adidas misconduct.
The booster thing is important because it creates a special type of agency. In the law, you are responsible for things your agent does in the course of agency. But agency also requires a showing of control over the agent. Someone who does something for another, even by request or contract, is not automatically an agent if they are independent. (The fact that Adidas did not recruit exclusively for KU does not defeat agency, but it is a significant factor against it.)
The NCAA is trying to label Adidas as our booster, and from there to bootstrap all the attributes of agency into the relationship, including the duties to supervise all their conduct, put protections in place to prevent misconduct, and detect and cure any violations found. How in the world could KU supervise a multinational corporation?
An analogy would be any other procuring relationship. Take Boeing, for example. Let’s say in the 80’s Boeing needed more chrome, which was harder to get from South Africa when sanctions for impartheid were being enacted. They go out and hire some guys from the mob who have a reputation for being able to find things via underground connections, and they tell them to get South African chrome “no questions asked,” i.e., on the black market. The mob sneaks chrome in in obvious S African crates, bypassing customs. Yes, Boeing has contracted with authorization for illegal transactions and could be held liable. But if Boeing hires another company that specializes in identifying and finding legal sources of materials, with a long history of working with lots of companies and having ongoing relationships with suppliers, and contracts to puchase chrome, then Boeing has not created an agency relationship rendering them liable for any illegally procured chrome received in legal-appearing crates. They are merely a customer, not charged with knowledge of where it came from since legal sources existed.
And yes, they would be the victim if their new supplier defrauded them by procuring chrome that might be seized if it was illegally imported.
KU’s “admission” that Adidas was a booster was for the purposecof the Silvio case only. There are ways that lawyers can do “limited purpose” admissions that absolutely prohibit collateral use, but I have no idea if KU did theirs properly.
One other thing that needs to be addressed: if the IARP exceeds its authority or violates its own procedures, the unappealability of its decision goes out the window. Private organizations are required to follow their own rules, and any findings/sanctions, have to be grounded in the referral charter/warrant/whatever. Waiving the right of appeal would not, for example, authorize the IARP to prohibit KU from participation in all sports, or require closing the Student Union.
If the booster theory works, I want the NCAA to charge Oregon and other Nike schools with aiding and abetting violations of child labor laws in getting their shoes.
No opinion on anything not specifically discussed above!
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Hope your right.
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I say fight every last thing with NCAA till the end of time. Entire process is BS at this point.
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@DanR I admitted to something I didn’t do as a 5 year old and I’m still miffed about that forced confession decades later.
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@dylans Probably still in an FBI file. Or maybe the NCAA files from looking for dirt in the fanbase.
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This is us and the NCAA. If they hit a homer against us, this is what we’ll do:
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@Jethro I saw that. Baseball has a problem. Maybe more of that will help improve ratings and draw in the younger generation!
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@dylans said in What's our fate?:
@DanR I admitted to something I didn’t do as a 5 year old and I’m still miffed about that forced confession decades later.
Hmmm, we might have gone to school together! Thanks for whoever confessed to de-airing the principals tire.
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@wissox said in What's our fate?:
@Jethro I saw that. Baseball has a problem. Maybe more of that will help improve ratings and draw in the younger generation!
I’m driving home today, and there is a 3 car pileup on the feeder road. 1 car hit a car which knocked that car into the car in front. So, 2 ladies jump out from the first car, and the driver in the 2nd car rolls his window down, and the ladies start whaling on the guy in the 2nd car… throwing haymakers. Then they jump back into their car and drive away. They had a temporary tag, so I couldn’t read the license tag, or I would’ve called 911. It was like watching a Jerry Springer episode. I couldn’t believe it. Violence all over the country is running amok.
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@Jethro I wish you would’ve, those ladies did some damage to me.
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@wissox said in What's our fate?:
@Jethro I wish you would’ve, those ladies did some damage to me.
I think calling them ladies is a bridge too far. They’re lucky the dude wasn’t armed. That happened right by Reliant Stadium in Houston- they’re doing construction at Kirby and 610 so the traffic is at a standstill at that spot everyday. It was such a bizarre scene!
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Reading these comments from conference commissioners. KU should not accept any penalty levied to them with such an uncertain future for the NCAA.
Aresco said it’s critical the next leader of the NCAA knows what his or her role will be.
“Will he or she simply be in charge of dismantling the NCAA? And having all the decision-making devolved to the conferences or the schools?” Aresco said. “Or will that person be expected to be a transformative figure and try to get some of these issues resolved or under control? You know, NIL is not what we expected, wanted it to be. It’s the Wild West. It isn’t NIL, it seems to be buying players and making sure you retain them, and that’s not what was intended. The portal and NIL have created a perfect storm. … What’s our mission? Is this going to become semi-pro sports, or is there going to be any retention of the amateur model? Those are all things that are going to face a new president.”
NCAA member schools adopted a new constitution in January and are in the process of changing the organization’s structure and mission. Many expect the NCAA’s responsibility to diminish significantly as more autonomy is transferred to the conferences and schools. Mid-American Conference commissioner Jon Steinbrecher said the transformation period Emmert initiated “provides a really good pivot point.”
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I can’t believe this hasn’t been resolved yet
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I’d love to know what would actually happen if KU just flat out refused to honor whatever result comes. There is no leadership or control from what these people are saying & the power is shifting to schools. Makes these allegations a sham, not that they weren’t already
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The Athletic has a long article today talking about a new policy to be voted on today by the NCAA Board trying to control NIL activities, etc. (Link is at the end, below.) Here is what I wrote in a comment there, which is relevant to this thread:
This is really interesting for what it could mean to the KU case pending. According to the FBI reports, KU is the only school in the Adidas investigation that did not have any employees involved in passing or arranging money to recruits. (FBI called KU a victim of the scheme.) The legal theory has never been used before to impute Level 1 liability to a school for the rogue actions of 3rd party employees of independent companies.
The theory used by the NCAA is that Adidas was a booster of KU and therefore KU was required to, but failed to, supervise and control Adidas’s contacts with recruits (which means prevent them from doing any steering to a school).
If the NCAA Board of Directors has to issue a new rule announcing that corporations or consortiums will be considered boosters from now on, but it is NOT retroactive, that seems to seriously undermine their KU theory that the exact same conduct by Adidas made KU liable.
The players paid by Adidas would still cause vacating of games they were in, but the failure to know and supervise theory justifying big sanctions seems doomed.
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IARP website made more riveting updates concerning the KU case.
They are the best
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Basically an amended notice of allegations was provided/submitted. Who knows.
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
Basically an amended notice of allegations was provided/submitted. Who knows.
They really should post all the documents to be transparent.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in What's our fate?:
@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
Basically an amended notice of allegations was provided/submitted. Who knows.
They really should post all the documents to be transparent.
I’ll be rich before that happens
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AD Travis Goff hoped there would be resolution to KU case in 2022 but “does not know if that will happen”. Does not have any new info to share.
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@BeddieKU23 I figure I have 30 years left on this earth and my goal is to never see the decision handed down.
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@wissox wow! I just hope to see tomorrow. You’re optimistic!
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@dylans Yeah, watch you live 30 more years (I don’t know how old you are so maybe you’re hoping for 50 or 60 more!) and i don’t make it til tomorrow!
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@wissox If you don’t make it to tomorrow, please let us know. I don’t want to see your name on a “whatever happened to…?” thread.
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@wissox 50-60 would be nice. 45 more seems to be par
