Coach K to retire after 21-22 season
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Are we comparing ourselves to other schools? I mean what is the criteria for saying Bill Self doesn’t develop wings?
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I want to see Self put more PGs and Cs in the league. Least worried about wings.
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@approxinfinity Self’s preferred style of PG doesn’t really fit NBA molds and basically nobody is putting C’s into the NBA anymore as only 8 have been drafted in the 1st round of the past three drafts.
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@approxinfinity said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
I want to see Self put more PGs and Cs in the league. Least worried about wings.
Withey, Embiid, Doke? I think Landen is the only starting true center of the Self era that didn’t at least get a cup of coffee in the NBA.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 @FarmerJayhawk yeah that’s fair.
And Markieff.
I think all of the notoriety we’ve had regarding our underachieving bigs has clouded my perception. De Sousa, Cliff, Diallo, BP, Bragg, Giles off court issues, Landen and Moody as starters, Dokes FT form and injuries, Dedrics lack of athleticism, Darrells green room issue, whiffing on big targets that seemed locks like Hurt, Tarzewski, others.
Feels like year-in, year-out our question marks are always what we will get from our PG and our bigs. Not our wings.
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I reslly don’t think Collins (couldn’t control his weight, blew off a tryout; who does that?) or Selby (9 game suspension by NCAA, late injury) whiffing can be attributed to KU.
As to wings, KU’s alums trying to go pro are also competing not only with college players but with the huge numbers of foreign players. With only 2 rounds in the draft and huge contracts limiting free agent undrafted opportunities, there aren’t a lot of chances for the merely really good to break through.
Seems like everyone between 6’3" and 6’9" wants to play wing anyway, all of them seeing themselves as 3-pt assassins and swoopers to the rim. Few players at 6’8" will bulk up anymore to play like Kurt Rambis did–they stay lean like Svi and sport nice stats. But wouldn’t it have been nice to see more of these guys really crash the boards to seize rebounds rather than just being opportunistic? My pet peeve: even in the NBA, the wings stay outside to admire their shots.
Just a random bitching session…carry on!
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I don’t think KU does an adequate job developing any players. Part of that is just the way it goes in college because they can only coach them so much. So the focus is on team ball.
The hi/lo is not an offense built for wings. Period. And as Self begins his coaching journey away from hi/lo ball when he embraces 4 guard offenses more, it opens up more opportunities for wings. A motion offense is a better structure to build wing development.
I watched Baylor win a title this year over an extremely well-coached team that probably brought the best coached team ball every to perform at the college level. They beat them one-on-one and then also had their own decent team ball play. But the Baylor guards did it on their own. They knew how to use the crossover… they knew how to create scoring space… they had a wide open shot whenever they wanted. We’ve never had guards/wings that could do that with the ease they performed at. Heck… we’ve rarely had perimeter play where guys even knew how to use a shot fake. Friggin’ u nreal.
I don’t think we are known as a development school. We are known as a school where you go to challenge for a NC. @Texas-Hawk-10 said it right when he said Self’s job is to win games, not develop players. And that does put us in a position where we have to go for the top tier recruits because he needs to coach players who come in with a high level of play already. I’m not trying to diss Self. There are limits in what they can do with players in D1. I still think we could be based on development and then only recruit players who really want to spend their 4 years working their butts off in school and gym… all their extra moments spent there so coaches mostly direct them on their own developmental path.
I’m not saying players don’t improve while they are here. They do. Just not, for the most part, anywhere near my expectations. The basics of the game are mostly lost. I rarely see a player who knows how to seal the boards, hedge properly on-ball defense, know how to give the right weakside defensive help… and then there is offense!
Back to wings… I think BRush is the last wing player I recall here that showed real wing developed skills while at KU. He knew how to pull up on his shot and he knew at least a little bit about scoring space. I’m embarrassed by most of our players (for them) and how little they are developed on a personal level. Their focus here is spreading the floor and whipping passes between seams trying to get a shot off. That’s not personal development.
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@drgnslayr That’s not really the context of what I said. My comment about player development was in regards to it not being Self’s job to develop NBA skills in players.
I’m also going to disagree with you about Self’s ability to develop players even recently. Just because Self and staff are not training players to use the specific skills you want to see does not mean they are not developing skill sets that work for KU.
A big part of Baylor and Gonzaga’s success last season was experience. The core of those teams had played together for 2-3 seasons. KU didn’t have that last year as KU was a relatively inexperienced team last season. That’s not going to be an issue this season and why KU is on the short list of title contenders assuming Remy Martin shows up. It’s very possible the rotation next season sees at least 5 seniors/4th year players and everyone in at least their 3rd season of college basketball.
KU having the 4th most active NBA players should be a testament to KU’s player development, especially when less than half of those players were OAD.
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I’m probably not fair with KU. My expectations get the best of me. I don’t see the game without crimson/blue glasses. I focus on our guys mistakes more than what other teams do.
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@drgnslayr The hazards of being a fan!
It also explains how every single school has a fanbase convinced all the calls go their opponents’ way.
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@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
It also explains how every single school has a fanbase convinced all the calls go their opponents’ way.
It’s because they do!
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@tis4tim Reminds me of a Psychology Today article about a survey of people exiting a casino. 80% said they won or broke even, most of whom claimed to win. Which would have put the casino out of business, of course.
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@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Reminds me of a Psychology Today article about a survey of people exiting a casino. 80% said they won or broke even, most of whom claimed to win. Which would have put the casino out of business, of course.
Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.
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@drgnslayr too bad Jerome Tang isn’t on our staff.
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Thanks people! So I’m trying to lighten up and see the positive. Here is a guy who isn’t the same player he was when he got here. Love his attitude… always wanting to be better and do for the team, even if he is hampered with a recovering wheel -
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“As an original member of Scott Drew’s Baylor staff, Tang has helped put together eight consensus top-25 recruiting classes, including 2010 (Jones III), 2011 (Miller and Deuce Bello), 2012 (Isaiah Austin, Prince and Rico Gathers), 2013 (Ishmail Wainright, Al Freeman and Motley) and the highest-ranked class in program history at No. 4 in 2021 (Kendall Brown, Langston Love and Jeremy Sochan).”
Anyone think Baylor is going away?
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@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
I reslly don’t think Collins (couldn’t control his weight, blew off a tryout; who does that?) or Selby (9 game suspension by NCAA, late injury) whiffing can be attributed to KU.
As to wings, KU’s alums trying to go pro are also competing not only with college players but with the huge numbers of foreign players. With only 2 rounds in the draft and huge contracts limiting free agent undrafted opportunities, there aren’t a lot of chances for the merely really good to break through.
Seems like everyone between 6’3" and 6’9" wants to play wing anyway, all of them seeing themselves as 3-pt assassins and swoopers to the rim. Few players at 6’8" will bulk up anymore to play like Kurt Rambis did–they stay lean like Svi and sport nice stats. But wouldn’t it have been nice to see more of these guys really crash the boards to seize rebounds rather than just being opportunistic? My pet peeve: even in the NBA, the wings stay outside to admire their shots.
Just a random bitching session…carry on!
I thought Collins could make it in the NBA. He would often get lost, driving inside with nowhere to go with the ball, but I thought that - despite his size - he’d have a spot somewhere. Regardless, that guy is one of my all-time favorite Jayhawks.
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@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
that guy is one of my all-time favorite Jayhawks
Almost everyone remembers Mario’s shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!
Geez, this never gets old:
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@mayjay no, it really doesn’t. Damn. It’s hard to imagine feeling about a team like I felt about that one again. Certainty that we were the best team in the country. Confidence that our talent and experience could carry us. Trust that our second unit was good enough to play with anyone.
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@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
that guy is one of my all-time favorite Jayhawks
Almost everyone remembers Mario’s shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!
Geez, this never gets old:
NEVERF , NEVER GETS OLD - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@approxinfinity the depth on that team, no doubt!
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@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Almost everyone remembers Mario’s shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!
I thought it then and after watching the video this morning after many years my opinion hasn’t changed: when that 3-pointer from Sherron left his hand I will swear to my dying day that the shot was off. It looked like it was destined to carom off the heel for a long rebound.
It could be a trick of the light or the camera angle, but I believe someone or something steered that ball into the hoop.
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@tis4tim said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Almost everyone remembers Mario’s shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!
I thought it then and after watching the video this morning after many years my opinion hasn’t changed: when that 3-pointer from Sherron left his hand I will swear to my dying day that the shot was off. It looked like it was destined to carom off the heel for a long rebound.
It could be a trick of the light or the camera angle, but I believe someone or something steered that ball into the hoop.
I think it’s the way the lighting is in the dome coming off the backboard that makes the shot look off. I never really thought about it, but I just watched it a bunch of times and it does look like its heading off before seeming to veer in.
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@tis4tim Thx for making me watch it several more times. I forgot the play actually started with an SC steal.
I think he should have gotten MOP.
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@mayjay he did some bonehead things earlier in the game that had me pulling my hair out. I undervalued him when he was at KU because of the drives to nowhere / hero ball moments. That steal was incredible.
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@mayjay Chalmers made “the shot” but Collins won the game… Once it went to O.T. you could tell by the Memphis faces, they didn’t went any.
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It was fun rewatching that clip.
It doesn’t even seem to have happened when you talk with sports media. It is a game totally underappreciated by everyone but Kansas fans. That was one helluva game and the comeback was monumental… even though forgotten and swept under the rug of everyone NOT Kansas. Pity the poor fools. We all just love good ball, including games not including Kansas.
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@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
It was fun rewatching that clip.
It doesn’t even seem to have happened when you talk with sports media. It is a game totally underappreciated by everyone but Kansas fans. That was one helluva game and the comeback was monumental… even though forgotten and swept under the rug of everyone NOT Kansas. Pity the poor fools. We all just love good ball, including games not including Kansas.
true , almost like in 88 with Danny and the Miracles. Who ever thought KU had a chance to beat Oklahoma in that game? That was even including some KU fans , All I remember alot of was how Billy Packer kept saying how it was a big mistake for KU to try and run with Oklahoma in the 1st half and the half ended at 50-50 I know this might sound crazy , but I almost believe we had that Championship at the half. Why is that ? - -Because I think we had got into Oklahoma’s heads , thinking these guys think they can run with us, this is OUR game. Then when we matched them point for point and even at the half playing their style , got them to thinking what it took to run us out.
I think that was another game where ho one really appreciated how well we played that game other then KU fans and so many players coming up clutch. Of course Danny was Danny. but so many other role players came up big. The one I remember most was Clint Normore - -A FOOTBALL PLAYER hitting a huge shot from the top of the key latet, just love that game. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.
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@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.
What a game, one of the all-time greats. I think that people do give the game its historical respect and context though. I still have the SI issue bubble wrapped, the caption reading, Oh, Danny Boy!
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@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.
Tubbs ego riding right along wit Daryl Chew Kennedy the was a cocky shit - -now can’t remember for sure if Chew was playing in that game - might of been a little before him but he was another complete Oklahoma Ass
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Tubbs made everyone hate OU… It wasn’t fair to his players, then he would turn around and blame his players for pulling the stunts. He was a first-class douchebag. You won’t hear me say that about many coaches.
https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2058917/things-get-out-of-hand-in-ous-triumph-at-ku
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/may/16/tisdale-hand-net-cutting/
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@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Tubbs made everyone hate OU… It wasn’t fair to his players, then he would turn around and blame his players for pulling the stunts. He was a first-class douchebag. You won’t hear me say that about many coaches.
https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2058917/things-get-out-of-hand-in-ous-triumph-at-ku
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/may/16/tisdale-hand-net-cutting/
Agree but Chew Kennedy was an exception. - Do you remember this aggorant F - - - ?
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@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:
Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.
Didn’t hurt that we made everything from the field in the first half. It has been a looong time since I watched that game but I don’t think we missed a shot in the first half until late and ended up at something like 83% from the field at the break.
Also remember Milt Newton’s sweet reverse layup and slapping his hand at the championship parade. One of the only times I skipped school to speed to Mass Ave. to take part. Would never be able to get that close to the players during today’s celebrations. Fun times.
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@tis4tim Very cool story. I was able to watch the game with my family, then two days later had to go overseas. I was really proud once there to be able to when warranted say Rock Chalk Jayhawk!
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@tis4tim
wow! 
