Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond)
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@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
Is five years long enough?
https://twitter.com/loneberrywang/status/1270087421531652104?s=21
That post gives zero context to those numbers so they’re not usable to support any position because it doesn’t break the numbers down by race/gender/jurisdiction of any other way to make a determination about anything. Did a city like St. Louis or Baltimore see a decrease in that 5 years because of changes made in the wake their incidents while another city saw an increase for some other reason? Those numbers are useless without context.
5 years is a good time frame to evaluate how effective reforms have been. Evaluate what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, what just needs slight tweaking to become effective and make appropriate changes to keep moving forward.
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@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
Is five years long enough?
https://twitter.com/loneberrywang/status/1270087421531652104?s=21
In short, this evidence is not causal at all and is subject to all sorts of interpretations. How well did individual officers adhere to new guidelines? Were there sanctions if officers didn’t follow the rules? Did the unions gain power during that time? We have 1000 possible confounds that make a causal interpretation impossible since we only have really two variables: policymakers saying new guidelines exist, and police shootings. We know nothing else about either variable from this tweet.
This is basically where my mind is at: https://reason.com/1969/11/01/the-cops-heroes-or-villains/ . We need a retaliatory force to correct acts of coercion criminals impose on victims. For example, if someone stole something of yours, there should be justice. This justice could be in terms of utility, the criminal steals my car, he goes to jail for as long as it takes for me to get a new one (in terms of utility). Or could be retribution, we as a society decide how long a car thief should be deprived of freedom for said act. If we attribute those same guidelines to cops (use coercion initiating violence) the officer should be held accountable. We expect our police (and courts) to act as the corrective force, that is to even the field between victim and perpetrator. Like it’s not a coercive act to take my car back from a car thief since it wasn’t the thief’s right to take my car. You can only be coerced if you had the right to the thing in the first place (like me and my car.)
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I’m a little confused how canceling shows like cops and live PD are helping this cause. I don’t watch much tv but I enjoy those shows. If we continue to treat all cops as if they are bad and continue to cut funding, it will only make matters worse. Less training hours and low pay won’t fix anything. I read they are considering canceling Paw Patrol for having good cops, yes teaching all children cops are evil will pay dividends smh. There is little common sense or logic these days…
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@kjayhawks wow, that’s dumb.
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That’s just crazy, especially the Paw Patrol part. My 3 year old son is obsessed with the show and the toys…
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@kjayhawks Like most things that create such reactions by Ted Cruz and company, the Paw Patrol cancellation is manufactured speculation. It is based on a NYT critic’s recounting of satirical comments made on the show’s website (the cop puppy is a “species traitor”?). She used those as a way to launch into a larger attack on TV cop shows (her commentary is a whole different level of overwrought, IMO). There is no announced plan to cancel it, and it did just get renewed.
https://decider.com/2020/06/11/is-paw-patrol-being-cancelled-protests/
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Also:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-paw-patrol-get-canceled/
Surprise, Eric Trump & Dana Loesch are another source of the false rumor.
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@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
I’m a little confused how canceling shows like cops and live PD are helping this cause. I don’t watch much tv but I enjoy those shows. If we continue to treat all cops as if they are bad and continue to cut funding, it will only make matters worse. Less training hours and low pay won’t fix anything.
On the issue of TV shows, those shows were problematic because the police department that they filmed got to decide what got aired and how the video was cut. As a result, they could manipulate how they were being portrayed, and even had a say in whether or not things aired. It wasn’t as “real” as the shows advertised themselves to be.
As far as defunding, its really shifting funding away from police and into community redevelopment and mental health. Police Departments do not do a good job handling people that are mentally ill. All of the research says that. Most law enforcement groups agree. They are not designed to handle people with mental health issues because the whole idea of law enforcement is based on people understanding actions and consequences. If that isn’t present, law enforcement is not designed to respond.
There have been numerous incidents where police have injured or killed someone that was mentally ill because that person did not understand the officer’s commands, or even that the officer was law enforcement. While those situations are not the officer’s fault, it shows how much the system can fail if law enforcement tries to engage on mental health. It simply cannot work.
Moving law enforcement funds to mental health funding actually could save even more money because now you are treating people rather than just arresting them and having them in jail, where they injure themselves and others, require extra monitoring, damage property, etc.
Putting funds back into community development and youth programs can make a huge difference in deterring kids away from some of those initial issues like trespassing and vandalism that are typically the result of bored kids out running around. Again, this could result in savings because instead of having to imprison and monitor, you just have programs that kids and young adults can participate in.
The funds that get moved could end up being twice as effective as just leaving them in the police budget. There is research out there that early childhood and youth programs cut crime rates later by a significant percentage. If that is true, every dollar you spend on early childhood saves you money later on. So dumping $100M into those types of programs now may result in $5-$10M in savings in the future (i.e., money not spent on additional programs or policing later). That is a huge benefit for society overall. And your taxes may go down, too.
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@mayjay said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
Also:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-paw-patrol-get-canceled/
Surprise, Eric Trump & Dana Loesch are another source of the false rumor.
That’s what I hate most about liberals. Everything about them is a lie.
Edit: This was meant to be a play on words, but I realize it sounds too much like an illogical fallacy someone might actually use. Oh well. Imagine, some day returning to a place where we can agree on what is absurd.
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@justanotherfan you bring some fair points about a mental health team and I think that’s a good idea but their is plenty of police brutality that doesn’t involve folks with mental issues. It’s like the guy Home Depot not knowing crap about home improvement because he makes $8 an hour and has no training. Leading police down that same path will only make matters worse. Acting as if all police officers are bad is the same as someone saying all white people are rednecks and all African Americans all gangsters. We cant judge people by race, religion, occupation and sex. All kinds of people are evil my friend. In term of the cops and live pd, of coarse it’s edited. But I still have no idea how it helps the cause in this case. I think helps show people some of the issue police face in the field.
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@mayjay could be untrue here is one article from New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/arts/television/protests-fictional-cops.html
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@kjayhawks That is the article I referenced as using the satire about Paw Patrol to attack TV cop dramas (and Brooklyn 99 for that matter). She does NOT say PP is cancelled.
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@mayjay right, it was just some info on it and I wasn’t meaning it was canceled but rather people are supposedly calling for it to be.
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The argument is not that police are all bad. As you very correctly point out, that type of broad generalization is quite silly. The argument is that the system is flawed.
Let’s move to a sports analogy to make that point. Referees are required to enforce the rules of the game. If the rule is bad, then even if a referee makes the correct call, they may put a player or team at a disadvantage not because they themselves are biased, but because the rule is flawed.
We have seen the issues the NFL has had with the catch/no catch ruling for years as they have defined and re-defined what a catch is. Because of this, there have been a lot of issues with those rulings over time, often resulting in a disadvantage as a result of rule application.
We have seen the same thing with slow motion review of targeting, which has caused a few ejections at the NCAA level based on the slow motion review, even though no penalty was called on the field because of the speed of the play. The referee in those cases wasn’t biased. They just didn’t see targeting, so they didn’t call it, but the technical, by the book application of the rule when put in super slow motion required that a player be ejected. Happened to KU last season. The official wasn’t out to get KU. But that rule requires that application, and because it is reviewable, you can get that result. That is a systemic flaw. No matter who you get as an official, you cannot change that result without changing the underlying rule because the RULE is the problem, not the way it is being enforced.
The same issue exists with law enforcement. There are foundational, systemic flaws. Even if we eliminated or mitigated every personal bias in the individuals that are officers, we would still have problems because the system itself is biased and flawed.
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-shoving-suspect-woman-92
I’m sure racism caused this.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Another version, if accurate, might give context to why the officer took the approach he did:
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@mayjay that is my problem with the media, they push whatever they can regardless if it’s half the story or even true. The media continues to attempt to divide us.
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@mayjay that wasn’t out there when I read it. I saw a video of a male officer talking to them where it happened and where the BB gun was found. I thought he did a good job of trying to teach them how much that BB gun looked like the real thing and they could’ve been hurt really bad.
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@kjayhawks I don’t think so. This version came out after all the angry posts reacting to the bystanders’ video. The police released their version quickly. But the media there published it quickly, too. I see no manipulation by the media. This story was driven by social media.
In the past, police never felt much need to give their version, and if a video was provided it was often delayed for months and edited. Only with the prevalence of cell phone cameras have we started seeing versions other than the official ones.
The media are not at fault for the suspicions of the police. That is on the cops, the prosecutors, and police unions that reflexively protect even murderous cops
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@Crimsonorblue22 His feeling of vulnerability while waiting for backup unfortunately kept the situation highly charged because he kept his weapon out without any explanation, and it looked like if the kids made a mistake by moving improperly another tragedy would have occurred. A good reason cops should not patrol alone.
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@mayjay the guy I saw was at the Lil convenience store.
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@mayjay was that a gal or a guy? I don’t want to watch it again.
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@mayjay if you go down further on the comments there’s a video at the convenience Store.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1231189
Warped and ridiculous.
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Those mobs of roaming white kids … oh wait, 13% of the population but nearly every time this happens, well, BLM. Yet so we’re not racist, we should act as if groups of black kids aren’t threats. Even though we see repeated incidents of this.
“I don’t know what else I could do," he told KTRK-TV. “The fifth one at the end came out of the store after purchasing goods, and came up to me and kicked me in the face and said, ‘Black Lives Matter, [expletive].’”
https://www.foxnews.com/ I us/group-brutally-attacks-customer-outside-texas-convenience-store-video-shows
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A succinct summary of some of the cases giving rise to the current protests:
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Sad, but also sad that other races suffer the same fate.
Obviously … except to the leftist … if police were not forced to have high numbers of police in inner city black areas, then the contact between blacks and the police would be less, per capita.
But the leftist sees only racism and not a broader view of cause and effect.
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@HighEliteMajor Well one this is for certain: We are going to have a whole radically new pile of data to analyze shortly.
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@approxinfinity True … this is insanity. https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29328113/oklahoma-state-mike-gundy-accused-using-racial-slur-1989-game
Heck, 31 years ago? This is the lead story at ESPN.com. The lead story.
And we see the further movements to tearing down monuments to HISTORY? I mean the NEGRO league hall of fame remains open. No name change. Why? It’s HISTORY. We can’t change history. Doesn’t mean certain things are celebrated. They are remembered, good, bad, indifferent.
Should we hold a long stranding grudge against the Japanese because they thought they were superior to us, bombed and killed thousands of Americans, and started the pacific war?
Well, if we hold that grudge or an old World War II vet might still call them Japs, well he’s an old racist that can’t let things go. I heard a discussion on that a while back.
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@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@approxinfinity True … this is insanity. https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29328113/oklahoma-state-mike-gundy-accused-using-racial-slur-1989-game
Heck, 31 years ago? This is the lead story at ESPN.com. The lead story.
And we see the further movements to tearing down monuments to HISTORY? I mean the NEGRO league hall of fame remains open. No name change. Why? It’s HISTORY. We can’t change history. Doesn’t mean certain things are celebrated. They are remembered, good, bad, indifferent.
Should we hold a long stranding grudge against the Japanese because they thought they were superior to us, bombed and killed thousands of Americans, and started the pacific war?
Well, if we hold that grudge or an old World War II vet might still call them Japs, well he’s an old racist that can’t let things go. I heard a discussion on that a while back.
Yes, we should tear down monuments to traitors who decided America wasn’t good enough because you couldn’t keep another man as your property. We don’t have a monument to the pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor. And we shouldn’t have monuments to traitors that weren’t built until the most racist President we may have ever had’s(Wilson) administration.
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@FarmerJayhawk I like your limited thinking there. I think your reply defines the difference between rational debate and idiocy.
We can debate General Lee. And monuments. But I ain’t debating George Washington.
And I ain’t cancelling Dukes of Hazard because blacks or leftist are offended by a flag on a car.
Idiocy vs. reasonable discussion.
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@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk I like your limited thinking there. I think your reply defines the difference between rational debate and idiocy.
We can debate General Lee. And monuments. But I ain’t debating George Washington.
And I ain’t cancelling Dukes of Hazard because blacks or leftist are offended by a flag on a car.
Idiocy vs. reasonable discussion.
Where did I mention Washington? That’s one of my favorites in DC. I specifically said CONFEDERATES. We shouldn’t glorify people who fought a war over whether you should be able to own people. Full stop. I protested and advocated Silent Sam on UNC’s campus to come down since it glorified the Confederacy and was financially a big drain on the university. You can say whatever you want and call me a leftist (which is a lie) but I don’t see what’s controversial about taking down monuments to traitors.
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I dont think we should have statues up that are reminders to 10.3% of the population that their ancestors were brought here as slaves, and that they and their descendents have been treated as subhuman by many.
Replace it with something less offensive. The reasoning to keep them up at this point is weak. This isn’t a slippery slope. Let’s get past the past.
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Regarding the negro league hall of fame, sure… take the statues down and throw them in a museum. I’m all for that. They don’t need to be prominently displayed in downtown Richmond.
I think re: your point @HighEliteMajor , a museum is a more appropriate venue for contemplating the good and bad of history. Monuments are for heroes.
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It is highly encouraging to see that some people have come so far in their understanding, shaking off the virulent hatred of their childhoods. A testament to human potential.
“George Wallace’s daughter reflects on current racial unrest: ‘America is hurting’” https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/18/politics/peggy-wallace-kennedy-bash-intv/index.html
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Ja Morant recently asked Murray, KY where he played his college ball at to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee in town. My first reaction was why did that town even have a Lee statue to begin with. For those unaware of US history, Kentucky was one of four states where slavery was legal, but voted against secession from the US and remained part of the Union during the Civil War. The other 3 states were Delaware, Maryland, and Missouri. A group of counties in northwestern Virginia refused to follow the rest of the state also voted against secession from the United States and created the new state of West Virginia and fought on the side of the Union during the Civil War.
Why would a state that sided with the Union during the Civil War vote to put up a statue of a man who committed treason against them?
Tear the statues down and put them in museums somewhere to teach the true history of the south in the Civil War, not the bastardized version that southern states try to teach. Most states, including Texas still try to push the narrative of States’ Rights being the biggest factor in secession which is an absolute lie. Specifically, southern states didn’t want the federal government making laws restricting slavery which obviously pissed the south off and so they went and tried and failed to gain their independence from the US.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
Specifically, southern states didn’t want the federal government making laws restricting slavery…
And not just in the South. With the Fugitive Slave Act and the Dred Scott decision, the southern states obtained the power to force free states to return escaped slaves, and for slavers to take their slaves wherever they wanted. Effectively exporting slavery throughout the nation, and severely curtailing free states’ own state sovereignty.
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@mayjay Don’t get me going on Roger Taney and the Dred Scott case. That was the absolute worst ruling our Supreme Court has ever made.
Lincoln is also the most overrated president to me. Not enough people understand Lincoln’s views on black people and he probably would not be viewed as favorably as he is if it was more well known he wasn’t an abolitionist, initially he just wanted to contain slavery to states it ready existed in and had no plans to abolish slavery initially. Not enough people also realize the Emancipation Proclamation was purely a political ploy to get reelected because of how unpopular the Civil War was in the north and that it didn’t actually free anybody. It only freed slaves in territories considered to be in rebellion (Confederate held areas) and didn’t apply to slaves in the Border States of Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, or West Virginia who all stayed with the Union or to parts of the Confederacy the Union had already gained control of such as Tennessee and a big chunk of Louisiana.
Lincoln also didn’t believe black and white people could ever coexist and was a big proponent of the Liberia Plan which was a plan to send freed blacks to a colony created for freed slaves in Liberia.
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@HighEliteMajor none of this happens now without the backdrop of COVID. The Gundy story wouldn’t be on the frontpage because there would be sports going on, but also because the Black Lives Matter resurgence is reigniting in a tinderbox moment.
My point is ESPN doesn’t have a whole lot more relevant sports material right now, unless you want them all in on Bundesliga (I’m game). It would be great if going after Zion didn’t conflict with their own interests.
If you’re saying ESPN is garbage, I’m with you. They have been garbage for years. Fat and lazy. I’m just curious what you think should be on the front page.
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@approxinfinity I eat lunch from 11:30 - 12:30 most days, and usually I eat out. Before all this started, ESPN was constantly regurgitating their hero Kaepernick. It was constant on the TV during this time … Bob Ley or some other host. Constant. They got stupid stuff like the “Undefeated” where all they do is talk about racial B.S. constantly. ESPN is garbage.
@Texas-Hawk-10 You don’t know much about the Supreme Court. And it’s just foolish to talk about Lincoln like that. Really idiocy. Lincoln’s actions preserved the nation. Get that? You hear that? PRESERVED THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I don’t care whether he really thought this, or something was a political ploy, etc. It all pales in comparison to perhaps the greatest achievement a president has accomplished.
Most overrated? Perhaps the most stupid thing I’ve seen posted in while. Please take it back.
It’s like saying Franklin Roosevelt was overrated. Heck, folks say he was racist. Didn’t invite Jesse Owens to the White House, while inviting others. But guess what … the guy won WW II. Lincoln saved the country as well.
http://new.wymaninstitute.org/2019/07/facing-up-to-fdrs-racism/
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@HighEliteMajor I’m tired of talking about race too. The events of the past few weeks have made it clear to me that we need to solve the issues so we can stop talking about it.
If this country were a person they would be a self-loathing hand-ringer.
If our separation from slavery was a messy divorce, where was the alimony?
Also, why haven’t the pictures of slave owners been taken off the wall?
And why is racism still following us around in an unmarked car, in violation of the restraining order?
The logical conclusion is that some part of us as a country isn’t willing to let it go.
We need to work together to find a new identity.
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@approxinfinity What is most important is to realize that if we wanted to, we white people can stay in our homes, watch Netflix, order delivered groceries, and totally immerse ourselves in whatever we want. We can forget all the race stuff any time we want.
Blacks and other minorites cannot afford for a second to forget that at any time going into public they risk possibly being targeted or suspected or followed or accused because of their color.
Actually, even innocently at home they risk being mudered.
Any white saying they are tired of this should start by reading Black Like Me, then watch Selma, followed by The Forgiven. After that, go talk to persons of color about their experiences with LE. Then shut up about how big their own burden is.
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You know the tide is turning when noted left-wing rag… National Review(!) says Confederate monuments should mostly come down. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/confederate-statues-debate-conservatives-shouldnt-defend-symbols-secession/
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@mayjay I’m allowed to be tired of talking about race, and when someone says they’re tired of something, forcing what they’re tired of down their throat is in my opinion pretty insensitive, tone deaf and counter productive. I think this line of whitewashed reasoning is akin to the simplistic, artificial, white-flight archetype it purports to combat. I.e. you’re tired of it too, and you’re throwing out a half baked solution, you may just not see it.
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All of our lives we’ve been talking about race. Do you want to talk about us white folks and those brown folks and those Asian folks and how ne’er the twain shall meet for the rest of our lives? Do you want our children to have to be divided by race? Or do you want to get past it?
I’m sick of talking about it. You are too. Let’s fix it.
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The blinders we wear. Some people think football players kneeling = disrespecting the troops. Others think being tired of something means a lack of compassion.
Exhaustion isn’t malaise. We all know what we are dealing with. And that’s where I think you guys have @HighEliteMajor pegged wrong. Someone writing page after page after page about something isn’t someone who doesn’t care. It’s someone who is tired of bullshit and wants solutions. We can disagree about those solutions (we do!) but hanging him out to dry as a racist because he is sick of our broken self-image as a nation is an oversimplification of where he is coming from.
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I am neither exhausted nor tired, and not sick of talking about it with people who are affected. Poor little white people, victimized by the consequences of ignoring it except when things go crazy.
My black neighbor’s niece got pulled over last Friday for not having proper window tinting. She was near her son’s elementary school to pick him up, so she pulled into the parking lot there. Yanked out of the car by the white cop in front of the kids, and (lightly) frisked. He gave her a ticket. She called her mother as she walked back to the car and said to her mom, “No, I don’t know what the hell that was all about!”
The cop heard her, and arrested her for cursing on school property. The school principal and security officer tried to get the cop to back off because it wasn’t even something the kids could hear. My neighbor is related to a police chief in a major city here, knows the Columbia police chief well, and has a state senator as a relative. After she and they started burning up the phones, the cop let her go about 6 pm.
If my neighbor wasn’t “connected” the niece would have spent the weekend in jail.
And if I hadn’t gone over to my neighbor’s house on Sunday and said, “Hey, let’s talk about what’s been going on” I never would have known about it. Or had a chance to wonder how often that crap goes on.
Go ahead, pretend that we are able to be racially neutral. Just be aware that when someone is targeted because of race, the fact that you don’t want to hear about the anger it causes doesn’t make that anger–the product of 400 years of oppression, rape, and muder–go away.
As for your willingness to absolve HEM, you have done it for years. He attacks people all the time, and you desperately need to think his long-winded bullshit reveals an intellectual current worth crediting. You never call him out for abusive language, but you have done so with me and others.
If you think HEM is not a racist, you just aren’t paying attention. A dialog with someone who spews the “blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off” line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves’ families through selling the parents separately and their children, too.
I am done with this discussion and pretty much this forum. Trying to talk to someone who thinks HEM is worth listening to is just too frustrating. While you try to listen, he will continue to spew his hatred and disdain. Enjoy.
