Outcoached By Scot Drew



  • Scott Drew NCOY lock



  • I’m at the point with this team that I say screw spreading the floor and trying to make a 4 guard line up work because KU doesn’t have the shooters to make that offense work this year.

    Commit to a 2 big system, but not the high-low because none of the bigs have the range to make it work. The strength of the guards is driving and the strength of the bigs is traditional back to the basket offense. Use a motion offense to create the looks for McCormack at the FT line because he can hit that shot and if the defense comes up to double him, kick out to a guard to drive if that’s where the double team comes from or dump it in to Doke of that’s where the double team comes from. If the defense doesn’t double, then McCormack can either take that that 15’ which is his range or get it back to Dotson or Garrett to reset the offense.

    Also, the offense looked a lot better with Garrett running the point today. The one run KU had today was with Garrett running the show when KU got the deficit down to 5 in the second half.



  • Turnovers and Butler. One is a team problem one was an individual player being better then the other 9 guys on the floor. That’s what it took to win in Allen. There were tons of other issues and reasons for the result but this was one of the first times an individual player has impacted the game so much that the 5 KU players couldn’t overcome it. Tons of concern out of this game.

    Dotson and Garrett’s health is deteriorating to the point it’s worth considering sitting them on Tuesday. What’s more important, OU or the tourney??? We already know both will play but the worst thing that can happen is one or both of them getting injured to the point they cant play at all. I’m worried



  • Texas Hawk 10 said:

    I’m at the point with this team that I say screw spreading the floor and trying to make a 4 guard line up work because KU doesn’t have the shooters to make that offense work this year.

    Commit to a 2 big system, but not the high-low because none of the bigs have the range to make it work. The strength of the guards is driving and the strength of the bigs is traditional back to the basket offense. Use a motion offense to create the looks for McCormack at the FT line because he can hit that shot and if the defense comes up to double him, kick out to a guard to drive if that’s where the double team comes from or dump it in to Doke of that’s where the double team comes from. If the defense doesn’t double, then McCormack can either take that that 15’ which is his range or get it back to Dotson or Garrett to reset the offense.

    Also, the offense looked a lot better with Garrett running the point today. The one run KU had today was with Garrett running the show when KU got the deficit down to 5 in the second half.

    Really, seems we’re pretty ineffective 3-2. That’s not to say we’ve got great outside shooting.



  • Bwag said:

    Texas Hawk 10 said:

    I’m at the point with this team that I say screw spreading the floor and trying to make a 4 guard line up work because KU doesn’t have the shooters to make that offense work this year.

    Commit to a 2 big system, but not the high-low because none of the bigs have the range to make it work. The strength of the guards is driving and the strength of the bigs is traditional back to the basket offense. Use a motion offense to create the looks for McCormack at the FT line because he can hit that shot and if the defense comes up to double him, kick out to a guard to drive if that’s where the double team comes from or dump it in to Doke of that’s where the double team comes from. If the defense doesn’t double, then McCormack can either take that that 15’ which is his range or get it back to Dotson or Garrett to reset the offense.

    Also, the offense looked a lot better with Garrett running the point today. The one run KU had today was with Garrett running the show when KU got the deficit down to 5 in the second half.

    Really, seems we’re pretty ineffective 3-2. That’s not to say we’ve got great outside shooting.

    Self’s ineffective with his version of the 2 big offense which is the high-low. None of the bigs have the range to make the high-low work. The 4 guard system isn’t working either because Self doesn’t have the shooters to to make defenses respect that. The answer is a more traditional offense that plays off the strengths of the current roster. The motion offense is that offense that plays to the strengths of this roster.

    In the motion offense, the perimeter players are looking for gaps in the defense to drive. If the defense stays home, one of the post players shoots up to the FT line and forces the defense make a decision. 15’ is about the limit of McCormack’s range so this offense would work better with 2 bigs than what Self’s trying to do now. Enaruna also has that range so it would make him more valuable as well in that offense.

    There would be a sacrifice on defense to doing this, but the gains in offense would be worth that sacrifice.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 I agree, we can either continue to hope we make 3s or change it up. The defense is better than it has been in years when we want it to be but it’s hard to hold everyone under 60. Which is what we will have to against a good team.



  • So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

    The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.



  • @HighEliteMajor we keep giving Silvio chances and I was all for it til after today. We had a lead til he came in. Big swing! I feel like we can only play him at the end w/big leads. Pains me to say!



  • Self isn’t going to make radical change now. We’re halfway through the year. What we rolled into conference play with is what we’ll continue conference play with.

    @Texas-Hawk-10 I’d rather commit to the 4-1 then try to hack the 3-2 and make it work, even if we fail with a 4-1 this year because of personnel. Then we recruit personnel to fit the 4-1, saying “we need you”. It’s time to be all in.

    Marcus needs to be healthy, make crisp passes and lead through smothering defense.

    Dotson needs to be healthy, continue to drive and shoot somewhere in the 35% range from 3.

    Dave needs to be Doke’s backup. Promise him his time to shine at the 5 is next year. Work his ass off as B-team in practice against Doke. Be Doke but more mobile guarding perimeter next year.

    Play Silvio at the 4, he’s the only big suited for the 4. If you want to go “big” at the 4, it should be Silvio and he should also try to hoist more 3’s. He made one earlier. I think this was Self’s idea today. Except… a) it shouldn’t be Dave thats the 5, and b) it shouldn’t be in one of the most important games of the season.

    Braun needs to forget he’s a freshman. Forget he’s in college. Find his avatar state and just stay there until the season’s over.

    Agbaji needs to continue to let his defense lead him, and hoist 3 balls all practice.

    Moss not hitting 3’s? That’s like a field goal kicker that forgets how to kick. Not useful.



  • jayballer73 said:

    BeddieKU23 said:

    Settle on an offensive identity. Practice it, eat it, sleep it. That’s what is holding them back

    We have just got to get rid of this dam 2 Big’s. - Why even start a two Big line up if you pull him after 2-3 minutes ? - -This two big line up is just junk.

    I think sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. It’s Self’s job to figure out when. He’s gotta be flexible.



  • It looked like Braun today was the one that lost the 3 pt shooters today. Confidence is great on O, but he can’t be helter skelter on D



  • Hard to overcome a flawed roster.



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

    The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

    Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15’ is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I’m telling him to take that shot every time he’s left alone there because he’s going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

    As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU’s current roster isn’t suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It’s suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.



  • BigBad said:

    Hard to overcome a flawed roster.

    Every roster is flawed. What good coaches need to do is play up the strengths of their roster. Self hasn’t done a great job of that this year. Self is trying to straddle the line between two different offensive philosophies and the result is the worst KU offense of the Bill Self era. Self should’ve committed to one system over the Christmas break and installed whatever system he wanted to try and salvage the offense this year.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 gosh, it sure didn’t look like we had the best talent today



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 maybe if dot, och, Marcus played at their 100% best, yes. But gotta find a 4 spot



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @Texas-Hawk-10 gosh, it sure didn’t look like we had the best talent today

    KU absolutely has better talent than Baylor. Today was a combination of KU playing with next to no energy and Self having a bad game plan today and not making good adjustments.



  • Well everyone is right about Silvio. Can barely afford to play him.

    @Texas-Hawk-10 If you’re putting Dave at the top, from 15 feet out, in the hi/low, he has to be able to put it on the deck and drive. A key element of the hi/low. And no, Dave isn’t hitting 60-65% of his 15 footers. It’s a horrible shot for us to rely on. Horrible.



  • It still sucks we got punked at home by Baylor and Scott Drew. At least they are a good ranked team. I just miss the days when people were scared to come to AFH and the place was loud. I swear every year I go it gets quieter and more folks sitting down on cell phones.



  • @kjayhawks I’ve been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I’m calling you out!



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    Well everyone is right about Silvio. Can barely afford to play him.

    @Texas-Hawk-10 If you’re putting Dave at the top, from 15 feet out, in the hi/low, he has to be able to put it on the deck and drive. A key element of the hi/low. And no, Dave isn’t hitting 60-65% of his 15 footers. It’s a horrible shot for us to rely on. Horrible.

    Maybe you should read my posts in their entirety instead of cherry picking. At no point in this thread have I said that Self’s two big offense at this point should be the high-low like you are trying to claim. I specifically, in multiple posts, said the two big offense at this point should be a traditional motion offense with McCormack being the one flaring up to the FT line if the defense plays tight on the perimeter and doesn’t allow the guards to turn the corner and drive.

    In an ideal version of this version of a motion offense, Dotson and Garrett driving would be the first option, McCormack or Doke coming up to screen would be a way to create mismatches and get slower guys on Dotson and Garrett if defenses switch. If they don’t switch, Dotson and Garrett should have the angle to drive the lane.

    The second option would be Doke off of those drives. If a defender is fronting Doke, then Doke is one of the best in the business at establishing position and he could easily move his man up the paint to set himself up for some easy baskets.

    McCormack from the FT line would be the third option. And yes, he would he hit 60-65% of 15’ jumpers if he’s open. If defenses guard him one on one, then kick it back to a guard and reset. If the double is coming from Doke’s guy, then easy pass to Doke.



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @kjayhawks I’ve been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I’m calling you out!

    They’ve rearranged the student section in recent years so AFH definitely isn’t as loud as it was because they’ve put more high dollar donor seats closer to the floor and pushed students further up the bleachers.



  • @Crimsonorblue22 I think it was louder several years ago. I see more people playing on cell phones. Several others on here have mentioned this in the past few years. Say did the KU boo the opposing team when they came out? Asking for @jayballer73





  • Texas Hawk 10 said:

    Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @kjayhawks I’ve been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I’m calling you out!

    They’ve rearranged the student section in recent years so AFH definitely isn’t as loud as it was because they’ve put more high dollar donor seats closer to the floor and pushed students further up the bleachers.

    Yep. The KU Senate reneged on their deal with KUAD to pay a fee and keep the section on the floor and lost that section on the sideline.



  • @kjayhawks always, but u started out saying our fans were booing our players, never, ever seen that. Boo refs. Been to fb games, no booing, one Vb and one baseball game, no booing. Worked KU relays, no booing. KU fans are classy, we applaud Kevin Durant, buddy hield and George Nieng-sp?, W/standing O’s.



  • There was a $50 per student fee that the KU Student Senate voted to remove. Section U went to deep pocket donors to accomodate part of the loss of money, which in total was $1.1mil

    https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article491664/KU-plans-to-reallocate-some-courtside-Allen-Fieldhouse-student-seats-for-donors.html



  • Allen Fieldhouse crowd breaks record for noise during KU game

    Crowd noise hits 130.4 dB during first half, takes record from Kentucky

    Share KMBC Updated: 9:54 AM CST Feb 14, 2017 After students were moved, I was there



  • @Crimsonorblue22 yes, I had a friend said they did. @jayballer73 said ku fans have never booed anyone even opposing teams repeatedly. Go back and read please and comprehend. I’m not gonna argue with you, I respect you too much.



  • @kjayhawks I know, don’t talk down to me. I answered your question, leave me out of your messes.



  • @Crimsonorblue22 don’t tell people they are full of it then cry when they call you out on it and prove you wrong. You don’t get to insult people then whine when they come back. I talk to others how they talk to me. I wasn’t try to talk down to anyone. I usually don’t have an issue with you so have a good night.



  • @kjayhawks you proved me wrong?



  • @Crimsonorblue22 I can post a picture of jayballer saying KU fans never boo college kids and Texas hawk said he too thought it was quieter. I respect you and do not wish to argue. I usually enjoy talking with you. That is all on the subject.



  • That’s not on me, my beef is fans booing our players. I don’t believe that. That’s what I was talking about. I told u when u asked me about that. I’ll say it again, we, KU fans, ALWAYS yell BOO when the opposing team in basketball runs in.



  • @kjayhawks my cousin’s son is a student and was there and his gf is a cheerleader. He said they, the students booed 31 a lot because he air balled and then hit a 3 and shhhhhshed🤫 the crowd. They said nobody booed the KU players!



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    Allen Fieldhouse crowd breaks record for noise during KU game

    Crowd noise hits 130.4 dB during first half, takes record from Kentucky

    Share KMBC Updated: 9:54 AM CST Feb 14, 2017 After students were moved, I was there

    That record is kind hollow though because it didn’t happen during the course of the game. That happened during a TV timeout with the Guinness people there.

    The loudest AFH has been since the reconfiguration was the WVU comeback, but it still wasn’t as loud as Missouri in 2012 or the UCLA comeback.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 I was there, it was during the West Virginia game. I was also at that Missouri game too.



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @Texas-Hawk-10 I was there, it was during the West Virginia game. I was also at that Missouri game too.

    It’s hard to judge in person because of you’re only really hearing what’s around you. I can tell you from TV, that WVU game was loud, but not at the levels of the Missouri or UCLA games.



  • Texas Hawk 10 said:

    HighEliteMajor said:

    So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

    The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

    Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15’ is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I’m telling him to take that shot every time he’s left alone there because he’s going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

    As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU’s current roster isn’t suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It’s suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.

    If Silvio doesn’t come back next year he is a fool, but to honest - call me callous - I’m not sure that I want him to come back. Enaruna needs to play more next year (probably should play more now, but - you know Bill - it’s not going to happen).



  • @Marco he was playing him, he kinda cooked his own goose. Braun just outplayed him, don’t you think? He may get more time this week if we rest dot and or Marcus.😩



  • Marco said:

    Texas Hawk 10 said:

    HighEliteMajor said:

    So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

    The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

    Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15’ is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I’m telling him to take that shot every time he’s left alone there because he’s going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

    As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU’s current roster isn’t suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It’s suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.

    If Silvio doesn’t come back next year he is a fool, but to honest - call me callous - I’m not sure that I want him to come back. Enaruna needs to play more next year (probably should play more now, but - you know Bill - it’s not going to happen).

    I for one want him back. He’s a great kid and talented player. We certainly need the depth up front. Dave and Mitch aren’t exactly making me excited. Not sure where the scholarship would go either. 2020 recruiting is done barring a surprise decommit.



  • @FarmerJayhawk Agree. I think we may need Silvio next year very badly.



  • @FarmerJayhawk

    Dave has been very disappointing against good teams this yr. The stats are alarming



  • @FarmerJayhawk Heard the staff had been still looking recently. Does this mean they now expect everyone (sans Dotson) to stay?



  • BeddieKU23 said:

    @FarmerJayhawk

    Dave has been very disappointing against good teams this yr. The stats are alarming

    He has a lot to learn but the reps against good teams will help.



  • BShark said:

    BeddieKU23 said:

    @FarmerJayhawk

    Dave has been very disappointing against good teams this yr. The stats are alarming

    He has a lot to learn but the reps against good teams will help.

    Yeah its something that I’ve been paying attention to. We see his potential playing less talented and smaller teams. He was a non factor yesterday and some of that is the coaches fault for continuing the 2 big charade and playing him out of position. Still I saw some troubling things from him yesterday from an effort standpoint as well as his continual quirk of falling on the floor and taking himself out of plays. I dont know if I’m expecting too much but if he is a starter on this roster he should be producing no matter the opponent. Hopefully at some point the light bulb comes on for him



  • Outside of Doke the bigs have laughable against anyone decent. The 4-1 that we are currently running will not work with out consistent outside shooting. They pretty much had Doke surrounded from the get go, making it difficult to even get an entry pass in. This hurt the dribble drive of Garrett and Dot because even if they got around their man, there was 2 guys waiting in the lane. We have to run an offense that get Doke moving more and not just standing there. I’d scrap this offense if I was Self and find something else to run.



  • Anyone that thinks Allen Fieldhouse isn’t as loud as ever just hasn’t been. It looks quieter, because all you see are the first 5 rows during the game and those are damn expensive seats - generally it takes years to generate that kind of wealth so less youth. But if the camera was interested in the crowd instead of the game you’d see the biggest fans losing their shit every game from just a bit higher up than the cameras go clear to the f’n rafters. It’s just ignorant to think you could find a better atmosphere, but if you haven’t been you wouldn’t know just how in the dark you are.

    Crowd noise is measured as a peak volume, but if sustained crowd noise was measurable it wouldn’t be close - Allen field house by a mile. (…and the government would probably issue a warning and mandate hearing protection)

    Yes fans boo the other team. The entire student section holds up newspapers when the opposing lineup is announced (as in I’ve got better things to do) and boo as they come out. They boo opposing coaches and players and the refs too, but never the boys in crimson and blue. The worst the home team ever hears is silence and it’s deafening. The silence is more demoralizing and detrimental to the team than boos ever could be, that’s when the players know the best fans in sports have given up on them.



  • @dylans I feel like it isn’t consistently as loud as it use to be. I go to at least one game a year. As I said I see more people during the game on cell phones. I don’t usually spend time on my phone unless its half time or I see something strange I’ll put it on here during a timeout to see if the TV caught it.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 Some observations, the first five directed at your posts -

    1. David McCormack, 15-footer, “third option”: I’m telling you, your suggestion is absolutely absurd. There are sometimes that one “fact” provides that demonstration. You just claimed that for our offense, Dave McCormack shooting a 15 footer should be our “third option.” You rely on the further absurd claim that he could shoot 60-65% on those shots. But you will believe what you believe. And you know you’re right.

    2. Traditional Offenses: We have two “centers” – Dave and Doke. We don’t have a power forward. “Traditional” basketball – traditional offenses – have a “center” and a “power forward”. Not two centers. In most “motion” offenses – meaning with two bigs – a major weakness is the inflexibility of a traditional big when that big is extended. It’s an attack point for defenses. That’s because the “center” does get extended around the lane area. Because you never concede anything, I don’t expect you to acknowledge this. We have two centers on the floor.

    3. Snap your fingers, install an offense: I didn’t cherry pick. I read your post. I moved past the ridiculous suggestion of a “traditional motion offense” at this point. And it is ridiculous. I guess, here’s what we do, according to you. We just install in mid-January a traditional motion offense. Just install it. Now. Snap your fingers. You are aware of practice limitations, I assume. Should I assume that you are aware of the complexity of motion offenses? Motion offenses involve multiple intricacies, options, decisions, and then reactions to those decisions – all that have to be made with a real motion offense. You know, ones that are used at the college level. Not some of the claimed “motion” offenses that are used teaching middle-schoolers. Real motion offenses take time time to learn and time to teach. I would compare it to 2015 when Self put in a bare-bones, ridiculously simple 4/1 offense. It won us one game (OU I think at home) but after that, when teams had seen it in on tape, it was largely ineffective – it was quite rudimentary. Kind of like our “bad ball” abomination. As shift on the fly deal that was a disaster.

    4. Defense: Do you plan to change our defense to a zone? Do you think that Dave and Doke can do the trick? This is perhaps not a fair criticism. The way Self defends, his priorities, make it very difficult to play both together. If we pretty much permitted the 15 footer out to just inside the arc, it would make the job of our bigs easier, even if both were on the floor. They would know they had no responsibility in that range to prevent a shot. Self’s defensive philosophy makes this very hard. And, of course, we know that Self will react to good 4/1 offenses and guard them with our 4/1 personnel. So there is that reality.

    5. Timing: You may be right about the best offense. You might be. But the timing makes it impractical. If you’re saying that such a move NOW would be the best option, I strongly disagree given the complexity and the fact that a rudimentary offense (I think) will make us worse. That’s what I understand you are saying. If you say we would be best with this type of offense (meaning if we had run it from the start), that’s more of a discussion I think.

    6. Silvio: @approxinfinity is right. Silvio is our only true 4 guy. He’d be the only one that would work in the hi/low. I mentioned a question of whether we’d be better with Mitch and Doke right now. Meaning, Dave redshirted and we have Mitch. I know Mitch has a somewhat obvious ceiling, but I personally think they dynamic would be better. And Mitch is quicker, can guard smaller guys, and of course, blocks shots. Not saying that Mitch starting is a good thing, though.

    7. 4/1: I agree with @approxinfinity on this as well. I think it’s best that wego all in on the 4/1 and run with it. I would start Braun. Make him the chosen. Let the chips fall where they may. That seems like the most realistic solution at the moment.

    8. Guard the line: Much like with Agabji and needing him to perform, if we don’t attack and actively guard the line, all of this discussion is moot. We aren’t winning the NC giving up open threes as a matter of course.

    9. Newell: Just an observation, but he seems to have been right on the Baylor game. Obviously he was mocked by some for having the temerity to pick against KU.


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