Thoughts on KU 2020
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I’m excited to see us come Big 12 play. Self’s teams always get better over break. Garrett has a good shot of playing Sunday and the ankle is reacting well.
I agree with @HighEliteMajor that Braun is the better all-around player. Moss is similar to Vick on the court sans being a major headcase. He’s an elite shooter but not much else. Which in some cases we really need. But Braun is better at about everything else. He still makes some dumb freshman plays but that’s to be expected.
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I like Brauns ability to get to the lane, he is quicker with a better handle and more athleticism to finish but his defense and shooting have been below average at best.
He is good a shooter but not showing it and I think Self has to play Moss because defenses respect his shot
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This got me looking … not picking on Moss. Just observations. Worst rebounds per 40 min played (1.7), second worst steals (.6) and assists (.5) per 40 minutes played (Silvio the worst). The last two are tough stats for a guard. Second worst PER (Enaruna the worst).
My first thought was that from a 5th year senior and that it would be hard to see it changing a lot. But in his season at Iowa last year, the numbers were 4.7, 2.9, and 1.5. So much better from an activity level. Maybe needs to get acclimated? Some guys just do better as starters, too. Don’t know.
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Slow start, hammie, not sure now.
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HighEliteMajor said:
This got me looking … not picking on Moss. Just observations. Worst rebounds per 40 min played (1.7), second worst steals (.6) and assists (.5) per 40 minutes played (Silvio the worst). The last two are tough stats for a guard. Second worst PER (Enaruna the worst).
My first thought was that from a 5th year senior and that it would be hard to see it changing a lot. But in his season at Iowa last year, the numbers were 4.7, 2.9, and 1.5. So much better from an activity level. Maybe needs to get acclimated? Some guys just do better as starters, too. Don’t know.
Seems like when his shot doesn’t go down his activity level struggles. Last two games have shown that
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The 2020s and beyond is nice to analyze…but here’s a question.
What is your favorite game at AFH of the 2010s? Whether personal or just the fact KU prevailed…I would like to hear you share. Mine was OU/KU. edge of my seat and pulling it out in triple overtime…hard to relive all those emotions in a 3 hour timeframe.
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@bmensch1 that game and the come back West Virginia game too. Fans had actually left.
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https://twitter.com/kuhoops/status/1210638532613693440?s=21
I was at both those games! Ou and this one! Still undefeated but son gave up tickets this yr, so
won’t get to go as much! My favorite is still the last Mizzou game!
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@bmensch1 @Crimsonorblue22 I think you two just named the top 3 games of the 2010’s!
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I hope he doesn’t become the next Q… where it requires a feeling of being the top player to get him to stay plugged in.
So if his shot isn’t dropping does he pull back on the rest of his game?
Not trying to say this is definitely the case… it’s too early to tell. He seemed to make some pretty big goofs in the Nova game. Maybe he’s not used to that level of defense. Maybe something else.
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@drgnslayr I’d say more so it’s his confidence. I’ve seen him go to the hole and make his throws. He is probably the oldest guy out there, maybe he’s struggling to fit in. We do need him.
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@bcjayhawk I do think that the WVU comeback, OU, and MIZZOU were the best games…and should be in the tip 3 of every KU fan.
Now I offer this…who is the most disliked opponent player. Mine is marcus smart. But Phil forte is high on the list cause he always seemed to have a “career” game vs the great Jayhawks.
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@bmensch1 Jason Sutherland — hands down for me.
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drgnslayr said:
I hope he doesn’t become the next Q… where it requires a feeling of being the top player to get him to stay plugged in.
So if his shot isn’t dropping does he pull back on the rest of his game?
Not trying to say this is definitely the case… it’s too early to tell. He seemed to make some pretty big goofs in the Nova game. Maybe he’s not used to that level of defense. Maybe something else.
Too many people here had too high of expectations for what Moss would bring to the table and now everyone is seeing what myself and a couple of others were saying all along this summer about Moss. Moss is Vick without the baggage. He’s a better ball handler and defender than Vick was, but he’s not elite at either though.
Moss has a role and that’s creating space for others. He’s dangerous enough from 3 that other teams have to respect his shooting even if he’s off which helps open up driving lanes for the other guards.
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Vick was a significantly better athlete. Moss isn’t a head case and should play all available games. Availability is the first important ability.
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Interesting on Moss … all made 3s this season were assisted. Meaning no made 3s came from him creating his own shot.
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Braun showed up bigtime in Philly, and it was obviously not a fluke. He’s got a nice shot, it will come, and while his D needs work it too has improved. He will only get better. Alot of it is (the same for most players) his having to adjust to the speed, schemes and better competition.
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I think Braun will be very good in a year or two but I’m not sold on much outta him for this season. He plays hard, that I like but Enaruna IMO is a much better player right now. I don’t think Self changes the PT a lot going forward we basically play 8 with Silvio’s single digit minutes.
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kjayhawks said:
I think Braun will be very good in a year or two but I’m not sold on much outta him for this season. He plays hard, that I like but Enaruna IMO is a much better player right now. I don’t think Self changes the PT a lot going forward we basically play 8 with Silvio’s single digit minutes.
@HighEliteMajor posted that Enaruna has lowest PER on the team. Be interested in both your commentary on that point reconciled against thought that he is “better player now” comment.
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Bwag said:
kjayhawks said:
I think Braun will be very good in a year or two but I’m not sold on much outta him for this season. He plays hard, that I like but Enaruna IMO is a much better player right now. I don’t think Self changes the PT a lot going forward we basically play 8 with Silvio’s single digit minutes.
@HighEliteMajor posted that Enaruna has lowest PER on the team. Be interested in both your commentary on that point reconciled against thought that he is “better player now” comment.
Lowest win shares/40 as well. For reference, he has fewer total WS than EJ. I’d like to see more Dot, Moss, Ochai, Garrett, Doke. Ideally we get Silvio going.
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I think Self is playing him thru his mistakes cause his upside is so good.
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Plus what choice does Bill really have? The bench isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire.
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@BShark u watching duke game? Announcers have mentioned doke twice, not in a positive tone, sounds like we’ve got them tmrw. Don’t know who they are, missed the beginning.
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BShark said:
Plus what choice does Bill really have? The bench isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire.
MOAR SILVIO. Half kidding. But he’s been better in PER and WS/40 so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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@Crimsonorblue22 weird… I’m not watching it. Love Doke so screw them.
@FarmerJayhawk bigs tend to do better there. I’m not opposed but Bill seems to be. I think we have a very good team that barely lost two games. Now sure you have to figure out a way to beat good teams, getting tighter with the ball would be good. We just don’t have an offensive answer for the bad shooting nights that will happen. The good news is the defense being elite should keep us in those games.
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BShark said:
@Crimsonorblue22 weird… I’m not watching it. Love Doke so screw them.
@FarmerJayhawk bigs tend to do better there. I’m not opposed but Bill seems to be. I think we have a very good team that barely lost two games. Now sure you have to figure out a way to hear good teams, getting tighter with the ball would be good. We just don’t have an offensive answer for the bad shooting nights that will happen. The good news is the defense being elite should keep us in those games.
No doubt. Our B+ game is better than anyone’s A+ game.
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I remember seeing the video on Moss where he scored something like 16 points in like 2 minutes.
From that and some other clips I thought he would be a “natural scorer.” Those players are a huge help because they fill stat sheets. Often they are not the best athletes but just have a knack for scoring and have the killer instinct to go get their points.
That is what I was expecting from Moss. I imagined a guy who would be a double-digit scorer… perhaps around 14 to 16ppg or so. Not all from trey. He’s going to have to do a lot more than pump the long ball. He’s going to have to penetrate some… use shot fakes and draw fouls… drive and pull up… sometimes finish at the rim. That really defines a natural scorer. They get their points however they can but usually where the defense can’t stop them.
I still haven’t given up hope in him becoming what I imagined. Still tend to think he just isn’t clicking with the team yet and maybe having a confidence dip. I expect to see Self drawing up more plays to utilize Moss. It will be good for his confidence and should bump up his points some.
Things will shake out in January, when we start league play. Our best player this year may be Self… showing his chip from the bench.
If we are going to be a FF team this year then I expect to see us grow through every loss. I can honestly say that I haven’t always seen that in years past. That’s a reflection of coaches as much as players. I do think we have several players on this team that really can’t stand losing. Like the Duke loss I see the Nova loss as something positive for our growth.
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drgnslayr said:
I remember seeing the video on Moss where he scored something like 16 points in like 2 minutes.
From that and some other clips I thought he would be a “natural scorer.” Those players are a huge help because they fill stat sheets. Often they are not the best athletes but just have a knack for scoring and have the killer instinct to go get their points.
That is what I was expecting from Moss. I imagined a guy who would be a double-digit scorer… perhaps around 14 to 16ppg or so. Not all from trey. He’s going to have to do a lot more than pump the long ball. He’s going to have to penetrate some… use shot fakes and draw fouls… drive and pull up… sometimes finish at the rim. That really defines a natural scorer. They get their points however they can but usually where the defense can’t stop them.
I still haven’t given up hope in him becoming what I imagined. Still tend to think he just isn’t clicking with the team yet and maybe having a confidence dip. I expect to see Self drawing up more plays to utilize Moss. It will be good for his confidence and should bump up his points some.
Things will shake out in January, when we start league play. Our best player this year may be Self… showing his chip from the bench.
If we are going to be a FF team this year then I expect to see us grow through every loss. I can honestly say that I haven’t always seen that in years past. That’s a reflection of coaches as much as players. I do think we have several players on this team that really can’t stand losing. Like the Duke loss I see the Nova loss as something positive for our growth.
What you’re describing has never been Moss’s game though. He’s never been a natural scorer. He’s a volume scorer that’s not a great shooter. He’s only been above 40% from 3 once and never above 45% inside the arc in his career prior to this year, but he’s only taken 11 shots inside the arc this season though.
KU doesn’t need him to be a scorer to reach the Final Four. They have Dotson, Agbaji, and Garrett who can do that better than Moss. KU needs Moss to be the guy that spreads the defense and to be a catch and shoot guy when defenses double off of him. Moss filling that role is what will give KU its best shot at reaching Atlanta this year.
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HighEliteMajor said:
This got me looking … not picking on Moss. Just observations. Worst rebounds per 40 min played (1.7), second worst steals (.6) and assists (.5) per 40 minutes played (Silvio the worst). The last two are tough stats for a guard. Second worst PER (Enaruna the worst).
Stop looking for an all around player and look at roles. Moss’ role is to shoot the 3, that is it! Nobody else on the team can shoot for crap, so we need someone to help space the floor. I’m not saying he is fulfilling the role perfectly yet, but I just see that as a necessity and I believe the coaching staff does too.
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I usually understand your posts. But on this one, if Moss doesn’t put up some numbers for us this year how is he going to spread the floor for us? I think he has to earn cred before teams build a defensive strategy around him being a threat.
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drgnslayr said:
I usually understand your posts. But on this one, if Moss doesn’t put up some numbers for us this year how is he going to spread the floor for us? I think he has to earn cred before teams build a defensive strategy around him being a threat.
Moss’s cred as a shooter comes from his 3 previous years in the Big 10 as 40% 3 point shooter. This is what he does better than anyone else on this year’s team. If he starts trying to do things outside of his role, it will have a negative effect on him and the team.
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Let’s get real on Moss. Just what we’ve seen this season. He does NOTHING other than shoot the three. I posted that earlier. No assists, no steals, no rebounding. That’s what we’ve seen.
But that’s NOT what he was last season at Iowa, though. So I think we should be patient for a while.
Regarding three point shooting, it’s interesting. Against our best four opponents that he played, BYU, Dayton, Colorado, and Nova, he’s 3 of 12 from three (five attempts vs. BYU, just seven total vs. the other three). He didn’t play vs. Duke. He was 5 of 6 vs. Monmouth and 3 of 4 vs. Chaminade. Just remove the Chaminade game, and his 3 pt % is appx. 31%. I know that’s not fair though. Everyone on good teams gets to fatten up sometimes vs. weaker teams. But just an observation. Some lower tier teams guard the line well, some upper tier teams don’t (like us).
As mentioned in a post above though, it’s also kind of interesting that all of his made three pointers were assisted. Meaning he didn’t create his own shot off the dribble. That’s not a real big deal though. Vick was one of the best at creating his own shot and he was around 70%. Most good shooters (wings) around 80-85% being assisted. PGs get more opportunity to create their own. Just noting he has created no made threes this season.
And speaking of dribble, how many times has he put it on the deck and got to the rim? None?
If all he is, is what he’s been, it’s not worth putting him on the floor. His total package so far isn’t much. So far …
Spacing – all that means is that the other team will guard him at the line. It’s the opposite discussion as with Garrett or Traylor (back in the day related to him at the “high” in the high/low, when teams would give him the 15 footer, falling back and cutting off the entry pass to the “low”). Spacing is the norm. Every guard should demand respect at the three point line. I don’t see teams slacking off of Braun or Enaruna at present.
Moss is not good enough to demand a “strategy” with our other players anyway. No team will ever prioritize Moss over guarding Dotson, Agbaji, or Doke. I mean, unless he starts gunning and shooting high volume at 40%. The volume of threes then becomes the issue and this team will never do that. So Moss will never be that. Hope that makes sense. Unless we shoot a high volume of threes, Moss will never demand a strategy by the defense in part because we aren’t building a strategy around him. He’s just not that type of player, it appears.
Case in point – the guy played 36 minutes vs. Dayton. He had one three point attempt. If I’m the opposing coach I don’t blink an eye. He took two three point shots vs. Nova, missed both, in 15 minutes. That deserves a yawn. If a guy is a noted three point shooter and doesn’t shoot, what is he?
Based what I’ve seen, just what I’ve seen, I’d play Braun or Enaruna bigger minutes. Moss the least.
The thing holding me back is that Moss was much better at Iowa last season. Assists, Rebounds, Steals, two point FG %, etc. I’d say it’s worth seeing how he plays out over the next month. Something is different. I’d like to see if he can break out. Remember Newman? Took him a bit. Moss isn’t obviously a stud like Newman, but Newman took a while to acclimate. I’d give Moss another month at least to see how he’s trending.
But if he’s the same player in early February, I’d relegate him to single digit minutes as the last guard off the bench (assuming either Braun or Enaruna trend upward, which I think they will). I like activity and right now, though, Moss ain’t that.
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Moss has always been a guy that shoots a lot of bad 2’s and good 3’s, and makes and misses them in bunches. Then doesn’t do much else. Fran doesn’t demand defense so it’s taking time for him to adjust to Self. He’s a good kid but if he’s anything more than the 4th option and designated sniper we’re really boned.
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Who on this team can create their own shot from the perimeter? The answer is no one.
We dont have a Graham, Newman, Mason or Svi walking in the door. The only 3 I’ve seen instinctually from a perimeter player so far that I can remember is Enaruna against Duke. Agbaji should be someone who can do this with his length and athleticism. I think for this offense to continue to have any balance Dotson and Garrett need to dribble drive and be looking for the kick out when defenses collapse. We seem like a team totally dependent on making plays to set up perimeter shots.
I think if we are on game 25 or so and Moss is still the same guy he was after 10 games then this thread has more meaning.
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@HighEliteMajor So was I right about moss? That is his role and today he did exactly that!
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Here is a fun fact…
The team is currently 9th by Adj Ranking on Kenpom in Self’s time at KU. They are still #2 on Kenpom this year nationally. We knew that college basketball is down, but this really reinforces it.
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The Caesar’s sportsbook currently has KU has the favorites to win the national title this year.
